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Thread: Fatbike Frozen Forty - February 25th

  1. #34
    Granny Gear

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    Fatbike Frozen Forty

    Just got home from the FFF ride. Lots of fun, very professionly run event and worth every penny. Can't wait until next year. Thanks to everyone who worked so hard to make it possible.

  2. #33
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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigpeddler View Post
    But seriously though... comparing this 40 mile group ride to a national race, good one. Is there a pay-out for the race? I am sure you'd like to know how much money 1st place gets
    No, I never consider the payout for any race I'm involved in - road, mountain, or running. I don't run the Minneapolis Half marathon, or the Penn Ice Loppet, or the Minnesota Ironman Bike Gran Fondo because I think I'm going to reach prize money. I care most about how well the event is organized, and how fun I think the event will be. I don't think prize money is a relevent consideration for the vast majority of folks entering races.

    Speaking of Gran Fondo - road bike races - the registration fee for Minnesota Ironman Bike Ride Gran Fondo - 50 and 70 mile options - was $70 early registration. $20 for a 40 mile mountain bike race is a pretty darned good deal compared to that.

  4. #31
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    It's $20 if you register today. Same price as the Penn Cycle Ice Loppet.

    Like others have said, there are more expensive races to do. Just look at the MNMBS races.

    You seem like a dollar menu sort of guy, so it's best to just avoid this event.
    Last edited by Pain Cave Spelunker; 02-24-2012 at 09:09 AM.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigpeddler View Post
    I win! I brought Brendan out of his hole. But seriously though... comparing this 40 mile group ride to a national race, good one. Is there a pay-out for the race? I am sure you'd like to know how much money 1st place gets
    It’s still cheaper than any Moto race that you will ever attend. Plus you get to hang with friends and family for a good 5 hours. Then go home and relax. It doesn’t get much better than that. Plus you just throw the bike in the back of your 30 mile to the gallon car and its even less expensive.

  6. #29
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    I win! I brought Brendan out of his hole. But seriously though... comparing this 40 mile group ride to a national race, good one. Is there a pay-out for the race? I am sure you'd like to know how much money 1st place gets

  7. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjmoore1 View Post
    Joel, your a good friend, but I have to agree w/ the many other posting on this one.

    Local XC events, WORS/MNMBS/etc, go for $30-40 per race. National races go for about $80-100 a pop. 24 hour and endurance races, outside of the gravel stuff around here, are $100+. $ per mile, this FFF is a pretty cheap event even at $30. Murphy and Buck are anomalies that are backed by 2 great local shops that do it be cause they love it and want to support those that support them. Elk River, well, Rich is just a very giving and dedicated rider. Enough said.

    Finally, like Clayton and others have said, for the most part this is a labor of love for people w/ no money being made. I feel very fortunate to have enough people around promoting more races than I can even DO in a year!
    Are you racing this weekend?

  8. #27
    Log Jumper

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    Joel, your a good friend, but I have to agree w/ the many other posting on this one.

    Local XC events, WORS/MNMBS/etc, go for $30-40 per race. National races go for about $80-100 a pop. 24 hour and endurance races, outside of the gravel stuff around here, are $100+. $ per mile, this FFF is a pretty cheap event even at $30. Murphy and Buck are anomalies that are backed by 2 great local shops that do it be cause they love it and want to support those that support them. Elk River, well, Rich is just a very giving and dedicated rider. Enough said.

    Finally, like Clayton and others have said, for the most part this is a labor of love for people w/ no money being made. I feel very fortunate to have enough people around promoting more races than I can even DO in a year!

  9. #26
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    Joel,
    The free races that you have listed might be free to the people entering them but they are hardly free. Ask Chris from the Almanzo. From what I understand he put out over 10k of his own money putting on last years race where over 700 signed up and only a little over 300 showed up to ride. $30.00 to enter a race seems like a great value to me. If getting under people skin was your intention then you succeeded. Also, I noticed that your not a MORC member. Can't you afford to do that either? Don't expect to get everything for free in life. Don't insult those that go out of their way to put on an event and charge a small entry fee. If you add up the hours that these people put into putting on a race their take from the race would be somewhere around -$25.00 per hour.

  10. #25
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    I think $20 in advance and $30 day of is a good deal for this event. If you look at the prices of any other endurance event (bike race, running race, triathalon, etc.) you'll see how expensive most events are these days. It all depends on what type of event and what bells and whistles you provide, but events are not cheap to put on. It has been stated before, but you need to pay for many things including insurance, facility rental, timing, marketing materials, website, toilet rentals, food, beverages, prizes, swag for giveaways, trail marking materials (tape, posts, signs, etc.) and many other items I probably am forgetting. Not all of these items are required and some things are donated, but many races require most of these. Also, organizing a race can require a ton of volunteer hours. MORC has scaled back their involvment in races because we just weren't making enough cash to justify the work we were putting into it. We were putting 400-500 volunteer hours in to make the Freewheel Frolic happen and in a good year making $2000 profit. Nobody is getting rich off these moutain bike events. If there was real money in it, all kinds of racing businesses would be popping up to take their share of the cash. People are putting on races because they enjoy doing it, want to volunteer in the bike community, or are using it as a fundraiser for a non-profit like MORC. Every racer should thank the efforts of the race organizers and volunteers. Without their sacrifice, no races would occur.

  11. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigpeddler View Post
    Bob, who runs this event?

    I was originally comparing the FFF to LIfetime because they did the same thing last year with the Lutsen99er. They were giving one entry 50% off for the first paid one...sucks to be the guy who paid first.

    There are plenty of great events all over MN without the idea of $$$ in mind.... here's a few (and I am sure I've neglected to mention them all)
    • Almanzo100 - Free!
    • Dirty Benjamin - Free!
    • Ragnarok - Free!
    • Cold Bear Challenge - $10
    • Penn Cycle Thursday Night at Buck HIll - $10 since these races started
    • Murphy TT - $10
    Just saying (probably not the most politically correct way) that the promoters seem to be charging more than the apparently value to me. If no one ever questions them... how are they to know?
    I'm not that familiar with the Lutsen 99, although I'm considering doing it this year. As far as I know the event didn't exist until last year, and probably would not have existed if it weren't for Lifetime's help.

    The third Hillside race was $15.

    The Carver races were only $10, but from what I can tell, it only only takes a handful of volunteers a couple hours of set-up and a couple more to tear down. Nowhere near the logistics of the FFF.

    The Ragnarok is free, but that is purely a labor of love by a group of enthusiastic volunteers who work for zero and eat all of the other costs. I assume the other gravel races are the same thing. Eventually, these volunteers will burn out. When someone else takes them over, I can easily see spending $50-100 for entry.

    The $10 Murphy, Buck and several other races are run by LBSs. I'm sure it is a net loss for them if you include labor. But they do it as public good will, with the hope that it will gain them some customers.

    FFF is $20 for a race plus free food, free beer, and gobs of swag. Seems quite reasonable to me, considering the relative amount of logistics, fees, etc. involved. There's no way anyone is making money on this event.

    I'm delighted that someone is stepping up to run these events. And the best thing is that if I don't want to participate, it costs me zero.
    Leb borgata capodecina

  12. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigpeddler View Post
    Bob, who runs this event?

    I was originally comparing the FFF to LIfetime because they did the same thing last year with the Lutsen99er. They were giving one entry 50% off for the first paid one...sucks to be the guy who paid first.

    There are plenty of great events all over MN without the idea of $$$ in mind.... here's a few (and I am sure I've neglected to mention them all)....Just saying (probably not the most politically correct way) that the promoters seem to be charging more than the apparently value to me. If no one ever questions them... how are they to know?
    I'm not talking just bike events, but I've participated in a ton of LifeTime Fitness sponsored events. Yes, they tend to be on the pricier side. But their support, organization, and swag is also one of the best I've seen. I ran in the LTF Trail Series last year. Great trail runs, timed, prize giveaways at the end, free pizza and beer after.

    Same goes with Team Ortho events. $50 for a half marathon? Yeah, it's expensive. I can run 13 miles for free anytime. But you're paying for more than just running or biking. If you don't like the price, stay home and don't participate. Personally, I think it's great to see someone like LifeTime Fitness get more involved in hosting biking (and running) events in the area.

  13. #22
    Big Air
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    I highly doubt LTF is getting rich off races, it's about promoting a brand - they have a dedicated staff to set up HUGE events for people, travel costs, food, permits, insurance, etc etc. I highly doubt that is the way they make money.

    The only people getting rich off events would be thing like the warrior dash from what i can see.

    Anyways, the question has to be asked - how much did you pay for your fat bike? Cause compared to that - the $20 seems pretty inconsequential - and $5-$10 more than the hillside or penn races? Also hillside and penn don't have dedicated websites for their events. Penn already has a site and hillside has the city website and morc to promote on.

    Ouch $5-$10 extra for an organized event that you get to go home with schwag worth at least the entry fee - that's going to break the bank since the fat bike cost upwards of $2k - dontcha think?



    Quote Originally Posted by MC13 View Post
    Joel,
    Nobody is arguing that some races are a little over priced... however if you believe the list of races that you outlined as free are actually put on with ZERO $$'s...think again. Those races do cost money to run, it is collect though sponsorships and other fundraising way such as donations. I am actively involved in multiple races throughout the race season and there is not a single race promoter (outside of lifetime) getting rich by hosting races. Most do it because they love the sport and want people like us to have a venue to enjoy. The promoter assumes ALL the risk with insurance, weather, cancellations, expenses, legal responsibility... And if that isnt enough they HOPE to break even for the day... And when they do many give back the profits to groups like MORC, NICA, Minnesota high school racing league, Livestrong, or their local trails just to name a few.

    I challenge you to put on a race, understand the risk and implications, then try to make it profitable before you cast judgement upon someone for doing just that. and in the end if they make a few bucks, GOOD FOR THEM! they deserve it!

    CM
    As long as you beat the guy in jean shorts . . .

  14. #21
    Granny Gear
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigpeddler View Post
    Just a couple more questions, then I'll let it rest.

    What are the "hard" costs? Other people (see other post) can do a hell of a lot more, with less money.
    What's involved in the post ride gathering? Adult beverages? Food? Is there a band? Clowns?
    Are you paying out to the top finishers? If so, how many deep and how much?
    Swag was donated, right? (shouldn't cost you anything)
    Do demo bike cost to ride? Do entry fees pay for them?
    Does "grass roots" mean a couple of dudes with no experience?
    Alright, I'll bite, since I'm the organizer. I formed the company (Ride Enterprises) that is bringing this event to fruition. Although your approach leaves something to be desired, if I look past how you've asked your question to what you've asked, maybe there's a legitimate question buried in there. To the extent other people are similarly curious about why events like this have a cost, and what those costs may be going to support, let's dive in.

    It's easy to forget, when you pay $20 and show up expecting everything to be set up for you, what it took to get such an event off the ground. Perhaps it's worth exploring what your hard-earned $20 goes to support. Let's start with hard costs (out of pocket). First, there's insurance. Single event insurance for mountain bike events is not inexpensive. Then there are park fees/permitting. Next, lets go to snacks/food; the food and beverages people will enjoy don't appear out of the ether. Some were donated, some were purchased. Then, there are items I've purchased for give-away. Then, there are printing costs and other set-up costs for flyers, race plates for riders, signage at the event, etc. Then there are small incidentals- ink and photo paper for things that were not commercially printed, zip ties, garbage bags, paper plates, etc. Some items are not expensive, but they add up.

    How about soft costs? I've developed an event website dedicated specifically to this event. Frozen40.com was developed to keep sponsors, riders, and potential riders informed about how they can get involved, how they can sign up, what the event's all about, etc., should they like the idea and format of this event. Websites, hosting, domains, etc. cost $, but I'll leave that out of the equation to keep it simple. The time and energy it takes to run such a website are part of the "soft costs". Marketing/promotion efforts, working with park staff, insurance providers, etc. are part of the soft costs. Our event is fortunate to have remarkably supportive and generous sponsors (which you'll find listed at Frozen40.com and will be heavily promoted at the event). Without these sponsors, this event would not be the same. That said, there is time and soft cost invested in working to obtain and coordinate with sponsors. Many riders never give those efforts a moment's notice.

    Finally, there is the fact that I created this event from the ground-up, with no outside financial backing. It's truly a grass-roots effort. I personally invested in this, with the hope that people might like the concept, and it might be a fun gathering for fatbike riders and people who just want to come out to see what the buzz is about. I can assure you no profit will be realized from this event, unless registration goes up beyond what is likely. That said, I don't mind investing in such an event as I think it's good for the fatbike community, and will be a fun event.

    If you find that after all that, you just can't see why it's worth parting with $20, no problem. However, some riders have decided differently, and I welcome them to an event that the wonderful sponsors and I have worked hard on bringing to fruition.

    Bottom line, if you think the "promoters" are gouging you, simply don't attend. Or, if you think you can create a better event at a lower cost, do it. There are some great events throughout the area, and I think we're all fortunate to have race organizers who are willing to invest time so we've got places to show up and race/ride, should we desire.

    I'll take this opportunity to say thank you, to all the other event organizers out there. I appreciate what you do and since I've shown up at other events I thank you for having those events available. Hopefully we can keep this post positive now.

  15. #20
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    Clayton -

    Points taken, and actually mean a lot more if they are true (donating to Morc, etc)

    I have no interest in putting on a race, and dealing with people like me

    The question over cost needs to be asked. By the number of private messages I've received, I am not the only one in this boat. There is an obvious problem with low rider turn out if they (promoters) are offering 50% off the second rider deal. You never hear about the Hillside or Penn dropping their (already low) prices.

    Horse is officially dead. We'll see how the turnout goes.

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