Not Good!! [Archive] - Minnesota Off-Road Cyclists Discussion Forums

dennis porter

11-13-2003, 09:54 AM

Hi All,
I was informed by the Bloomington Park and Rec. manager and a Bloomington Park and Rec commissioner about two seperate incidents recently.
One was some riders riding between Indian Mounds Elementary school and Old Cedar Bridge. This area is not open for Bikes period!! It's also an area where a certain federal agency cites mountain bikers disreguarding the rules. If these riders keep doing this we risk all the work we have done to keep mountain biking in the MN River area. If you see anyone going through this area please inform them about their poor judgement.
If your on a team or own/manage a shop tell your riders not to ride through this area!
The other incident was a Park/Rec commissioner checking out the MN River Trail. I'm on the Bloomington Park/Rec commisson and I've been telling my fellow commissioners about how great the trail is and why it should be open for mountain biking. Well this person got breezed by some knucklehead and got the crap scared out of him. Try explaining that away to the park commission. Riders especially on this trail need to be respectful of other users!! Again, this kind of trail riding is risking mountain biking on the MN River. Riders that keep doing this have to ask the question " do I want to keep riding down here?". Please spread the word.
Thanks, Dennis Porter.
Vice Chair Bloomington Park/Rec Commission.

Rocky Mountain

11-13-2003, 10:02 AM

One was some riders riding between Indian Mounds Elementary school and Old Cedar Bridge. This area is not open for Bikes period!! It's also an area where a certain federal agency cites mountain bikers disreguarding the rules. If these riders keep doing this we risk all the work we have done to keep mountain biking in the MN River area.

Is this restricted area well marked as "NO BIKING". Is it marked on the far East side of the River Bottom Trail. I have never rode that far east but am just curious.

dennis porter

11-13-2003, 10:40 AM

There is a sign going west from Old Cedar thats very visable. Going from Indain Mounds School east there was or is a small sign but it's not very visable. A larger sign going East may help but, I bet those riding through the area knew what they were doing. The info I got was that the riders were in cycling clothing.

Dennis.

bobbkr

11-13-2003, 10:56 AM

Dennis,
I think there needs to be better signage. Coming from the west, its hard to tell where bikes are no longer permitted. Also, its not clear if bikes are allowed on the trail west of the ferry bridge parking lot.

nigel

11-13-2003, 12:31 PM

I usually see a few riders either going in or coming out of there. I try and say something to them, but they usually blow me off and keep going. Ill keep a yellin though :)

Douglas

TrailDale

11-13-2003, 01:53 PM

The last person I had to yell at on the river bottoms trail was a guy on a cyclocross bike wearing a Flanders jersey. I also spend a lot of time driving Hwy 3 in the south metro which gets a lot of cycling use because of the wide shoulders. I'd say that 7 out of 10 times that I see a rider running the stop lights on Hwy 3, he's wearing a Flanders jersey. I'm growing tired of saying anything, cause the response back has always been exactly what you'd expect from an elitist jerk. These guys are not doing the cycling community any favors. Anybody know the shop owner, or is he just the king pinhead to which all the others report?

soupboy

11-13-2003, 03:38 PM

...I think there is at least one route coming off the old cedar bridge area to bypass the no-go fed land on a small isthmus of soil and a bit of a hike-a-bike down below Indian Mounds. I've personally never ridden/hiked it, but I know it's doable.

By no means suggesting that you should ride until caught. It might even be in MORC's best interest to put together signs at the most likely points of ingress/egress to stay ahead of the game and in good graces with Big Brother.

As for the Flanders CX guy - I am not at all surprised that it would be one of them or that they would behave that way. Pretty consistent (ly bad) vibe they give off...

--Sean

soupboy

11-13-2003, 03:45 PM

bobbkr

11-13-2003, 05:06 PM

Iv'e been hearing alot of negative comments about Flanders riders in the past year from both road and off-road riders. Namely riding on illegal trails, blowing slower riders off the trail without saying a word, blowing through stoplights and stop signs, buzzing hikers.... I have personally experienced their behaviour.
I'm thinking that someone should draft a letter on behalf of the cycling community (MORC, TCBC, others...) voicing our concerns and send it directly to Scott Flanders.

ryno lite

11-13-2003, 06:39 PM

I rode east of the Lyndale parking lot this year for the first time in years. I looked to see where the trail did stop and I didn't notice any signs, maybe I'm blind. I did stop at Indian Mounds school only because I kind of remembered it being the end of the line when I rode it years back but was curious to why I didn't see it marked better. Even if there is some signage, it couldn't hurt us to go in and add more signs and make it more visable. I could have easily entered the wrong trail and I truly would never do that unless it is marked poorly and I was confused as to where it was legal to ride.

socrates

11-13-2003, 08:22 PM

Originally posted by ryno lite
I rode east of the Lyndale parking lot this year for the first time in years. I looked to see where the trail did stop and I didn't notice any signs, maybe I'm blind. I did stop at Indian Mounds school only because I kind of remembered it being the end of the line when I rode it years back but was curious to why I didn't see it marked better. Even if there is some signage, it couldn't hurt us to go in and add more signs and make it more visable. I could have easily entered the wrong trail and I truly would never do that unless it is marked poorly and I was confused as to where it was legal to ride.

I'll 2nd what someone else said...the signs are there...but they aren't the largest you've ever seen and become pretty well hid'n at times, so yes I guess we'll need to add some signage next year

seberly

11-13-2003, 09:42 PM

I agree we and or FWS need to improve/replace signs on the west end will try to get something going soon.

The point where the bird watching trail begins and where bikes are prohibited is just below Indian Mounds School - just east of the small stream that you have to cross - this is also about one mile west of Old Cedar Ave.

As Dennis points out biking is prohibited between this point described above and the Old Cedar Avenue Bridge Parking lot - it is about one mile of trail and it includes several long boardwalks - if you are riding on boardwalks you are on the bird watching trail.

In reply to another post below: yes there is another way to get to the south end of the Long Meadow Lake Bridge (sometimes called the Old Cedar Bridge). About half a mile east of Lyndale where the trial heads uphill a trail goes off to the right which goes immediately across a wet area (pretty dry right now) then heads generally east along the river (very sandy) - then you have to head back inland a bit and cross what I think is the outlet of Long Meadow Lake into the MN river - several muddy areas - the trail then continues in a sandy wash for a mile or two and eventually turns into an old road right next to the river - past an old farmstead - past a burbling spring - until you get to Hwy 77. It is VERY overgrown in the summer and very sandy - not a heck of a lot of fun - would be OK this time of the year though. You can also connect then to the South side of 77 and ride up the south side downriver all the way to the Sibley house in Mendota.

This trail is on the bottom land between Long Meadow Lake and the MN River - I'd suspect most people don't realize that when they are on the Bluff Trail they are quite a ways from the river and the water they see below them is the Lake - not the river.

dennis porter

11-14-2003, 09:15 AM

I'm pretty sure there is a very noticable sign from the Old Cedar parking lot. It's one of those bike with a slash through it. We will get a sign up below Indian Mounds soon. Let's not forget the other item. If you see those riders that don't show respect for other trail users please let them know that their riding habits could potentially harm efforts to keep mountain biking on the MN River Trail.
Dennis

socrates

11-14-2003, 09:49 AM

Originally posted by dennis porter
If you see those riders that don't show respect for other trail users please let them know that their riding habits could potentially harm efforts to keep mountain biking on the MN River Trail.
Dennis

Don't worry....not forgotten, I'm sure we'd all be happy to assist with this :D

SickBoy

11-14-2003, 11:31 AM

I have heard far too many stories about Flanders riders busting through the River bottoms, in the prohibited and non-prohibited areas. I do think that as an organization it would be best to send a letter to Scott and Jim Flanders as well as a copy to the MCF board.

I guess we can't control the stoplight/sign running and the rudeness on the road but if we get kicked out of the River Bottoms because of their illegal/inconsiderate behavior, I think we have something to say about that.

I'd also NOT feel guilty about finding out when their schedule winter rides are and notifying the appropriate authorities as to when they **may** be riding through the bird watching area. ;)

Never mind the fact that those who are breaking the rules, from any racing team/club, are idiots to be doing it while wearing their team jerseys. That looks REAL good for your sponsors.

zerpy

11-14-2003, 01:16 PM

When I rode the east end of the river bottoms I did not notice any signs about going past indian mound. The only reason I didn't continue east is because the people I was with exited at the school there and I followed.

socrates

11-14-2003, 01:32 PM

Originally posted by zerpy
When I rode the east end of the river bottoms I did not notice any signs about going past indian mound. The only reason I didn't continue east is because the people I was with exited at the school there and I followed.

If you would have continued going east instead of north and up the hill you should have seen a (one) sign...first time I road it I wasn't sure which way to go and came across the sign, I think the only reason I even noticed it was because I was checking to make sure I was still on the bike trail, it can be kinda confusing to a new rider in that area by the stream

jitterjepp

11-15-2003, 12:11 AM

Those Flanders guys are jerks. Nothing like the neighborly Ned Flanders on the Simpson's. They came flying at me on the east side of Brownie Lake and ran me into a tree. They didn't even stop. I got them on the way back though. That time they were yelling and I just said "what comes around...." and kept going like they did. Next time I saw them they slowed down and said "rider up". I'm never buying anything from that store.

socrates

11-15-2003, 06:06 AM

Originally posted by jitterjepp
I'm never buying anything from that store.

My first action is "Let's all Boycot them" but wait....it's early and I have this funny feeling....oh my...I wanna be nice...I must have the flu...MORC Board...I think it's time someone pull them aside and let them know the current tone of this tread....I guess it's only fair to give them a chance (1) before we start to spread the word to avoid their businesses because of what they are doing to the trails

Rocky Mountain

11-15-2003, 07:45 AM

I e-mailed a link to this thread last Thurs so we will see how concerned they may be.

From my one time of taking my road bike in to get fixed I was turned off by the mechanics. who was the actual part owners attitude. attitude which was "Why are you wasting my time bringing this Lemond Zurich into my store." The derailuer hanger was bent pretty bad after the chain went into the spokes and collapsed the derailuer itself. I was told they were the best road bike shop in the cities which they may have the talent but friendly they sometimes are not. Maybe I caught this guy on a bad day but customer service should never change,

soupboy

11-15-2003, 09:03 AM

What are you doing talking about Lemond Zurichs on the MORC boards!

Closet roadie.

Kidding. Off to Leb to not ride Treks/Fisher products...well, maybe a Pal-O-Mine-O.

Sean

nigel

11-15-2003, 05:28 PM

Good or bad experiences aside, this is not the place, nor is a good attitude towards fellow cyclists. There has got to be better way than to bash a group that might not even read this board. If you bash people, they often care less and wont even attempt to help our cause.

Douglas

pwpatton

11-15-2003, 07:42 PM

It is funny though Doug. This flanders thing is either folklore or these guys really piss off a lot of people. I first heard of them from a guy where I work (who is not a morc member or msg board contributor) who sent me there when I was looking for a winter wind jacket. He said, "just be prepared, they kind of have an attitude that they are better than everyone else" (or something like that).

I next heard about them all over this board. When I went there they were fine but I had my guard up. The guy who sold me the jacket was a bit aloof but he he was alright. And I got a great end of year deal on the jacket.

soupboy

11-15-2003, 11:11 PM

...with the number of consistently poor impressions left behind I don't think anyone is unduly bashing the Flanders folks. People are just noting their personal experiences.

It would be just as acceptable or appropriate for someone to post a favorable impression.

I'm sure someone at that shop...or their friends...have caught this or other threads that have not cast them in the best light. All they can do is react - right, wrong or indifferent. Can't we all just get along?

Now, back to my barleypops...

Sean

JBergland

11-26-2003, 09:40 AM

... before you open your mouth!! Flanders, both as a shop and a team, has been a contributing member of the cycling community here in the Twin Cities for many, many, MANY years!! The number of Flanders jerseys at any race or using the trail is a testament to that. You think some riders are out-of-line with how they are riding or using the trail?? Then confront/talk to them!! This ‘ya, they run red lights’ and ‘they are really rude too’ on a public message board is complete BS!! I don’t know Scott all that well, but Tim Mulrooney (one of the main people responsible for the club/team) is a STAND UP GUY!! How about TALKING to the appropriate people?? How about soliciting Flanders to help with trail policing instead of publicly bashing the entire club/shop?? How about focusing on the few individuals that might be the REAL problem and not target an ENTIRE group!!

JBergland

JayT

11-26-2003, 11:26 AM

Cancel the jersey order before it’s too late!

Can you imagine what’s going to happen when somebody has a rude encounter with somebody wearing a flashy new MORC jersey? Do you think that's not going to happen…?

Just look how easy it is to bash a group wearing certain colors.

So you drive/ride the same route routinely and witness riders wearing certain colors displaying poor behavior. Do you think this is a fair sample of that entire club? And, do you seriously think that any club/team/group can police the action of it’s entire membership?? Come on…

Sure there are rude riders. In my 15+ years of riding I’ve witnessed all kinds rude cyclists. On the road, on the trail, while driving my car… some had team colors, some had none… but guess what? The only thing consistent is the fact that there is no consistency. There’s just some rude individuals out there.

Cyclists bashing cyclists serves no purpose and does nothing but drag us all down.

JayT

pwpatton

11-26-2003, 12:05 PM

Alright, I'll play devils advocate.

I personally agree with the last 2 posts to a degree. People can be wrong, idiots, jerks, whatever, doing just about anything. I've experienced many walkers who were very rude (they didn't have a jersey on so I didn't know what walking club to bash).

But...
My issue still stands, why does flanders have this rep?

My experience with flanders has been positive (like I said earlier, I got a GREAT jacket) but it's interesting that this store (group) has been picked out among all the rest. Are they a target of indescriminate descrimination?

I've been to many shops where certain folks pissed me off. I've known others who've been pissed at the same store. Why have those stores not built the same rep that flanders is getting here? Those stores actually have a rep for not being very bike knowledgable

As for the discussion about getting them involved... sounds great. Nothing works like ownership and building goodwill between them and others never hurts. JayT, JBergland, I assume you'll take the action item on this... :) j/k

At the same time: it doesn't hurt for flanders to get this kind of feedback either. In fact, if they can hear it and not get defensive it will do them a great service.

Phillip

gopherhockey

11-26-2003, 02:29 PM

Originally posted by JayT
Cancel the jersey order before it’s too late!

Can you imagine what’s going to happen when somebody has a rude encounter with somebody wearing a flashy new MORC jersey? Do you think that's not going to happen…?

I think if we had a person wearing a MORC jersey out there causing problems, we would have done something (or at least tried to do something) about it a long time ago. We are also a club, not a team or company. Not that your point isn't valid about any group or product - I wear a Santa Cruz jersey, if I pissed someone off they could certainly blame SC. I don't think it is the jerseys or necessarily a bash against the shop itself specifically....

The difference is how you handle it once it happens and not to allow it to happen time after time. If it were my shop... and I'm just saying that out of speculation... I'd want to see it stopped OR I would come forward that I don't condone the actions of some large group that happens to be wearing my jersey. I would show my support for MORC or for the trails and offer to do whatever possible to help. If it was indeed a group I sponsored, I would certainly fix that as well.

Has Flanders been contacted before? Yes. From what I hear they claimed no responsibility for the riders... so maybe we mean "the group that wears the flanders jerseys" more than we mean "Flanders" as a shop.

I know I personally have gotten run over by this group a few times. If Flanders truely has no involvement whatsoever with this group (I'm not saying they do or do not, its not for me to say with the info I have), I would feel bad that they are being misrepresented like this - I'd ceratinly be willing to help them fix the situation.

If it were my shop I would have registered an account on the forums a long time ago and had my say and asked all riders to help me in locating these individuals.

We aren't the bad guys here by discussing it.... but we do need to be careful, and I do agree that as a club we can look at doing some kind of official contact with the shop. (again...)

yoeddy

11-28-2003, 04:54 PM

It bothers me that I am actually relying to this. I have ridden for the "Flanders" for the last 8 years or so. I am fairly active with the team , some years more than others with kids and all that. In the last 8 years riding with the team about 50% of my rides are with an organized team ride. NOw of those rides I have ran NO stoplights. No one has even attempted to run a stop light.....we might have come to a stop light and after no cars in sight and a slow light....yes I have rolled a few. But mind you this is usually around 6-7am. I have never witnessed anyone ridding people into trees or being rude to any cars etc... Scott leads excellent rides and is the most safety consciuos rider I have ever ridden with.

I know it's fun to bash other teams and all that but this is getting old. One bad apple ruins the whole bunch. Every team out there has guys wearing their jersey acting like idiots etc..I could name three guys that just about kill me everytime I ride with them. I will not bash them or say that there team is all a bunch losers...I know that they just happen to ride for a certain team and I try not to ride with them.

Regarding the river bottoms, I have ridden the river bottoms a lot with the team and we have gone around the illegal section everytime. I am not sure if why people insist tht we all race through the bird sactuary like a bunch of idiots.

Now why doesn't everyone take the pledge and take a closer look at your own team and see who on your team might fit the proflie that you guys insist that only exist on the Flanders team. You guys talk to your bad riders and we will try to track ours down as well.

You might hate the shop, hate the customer service, etc..fine don't shop there, that is your business. There are plenty of bike shops I don't like either but let's not let a couple of guys who ride like idiots with their "flashy jersey" on ruin our day.

I am always amazed when I am driving in my car how bad bikers run stop signs, cut in front of me at intersections and seem to "own" the road. They piss me off as well and I am glad that I do not ride that way nor do my team mates, if we did we'd all be dead by now.

pwpatton

11-28-2003, 05:19 PM

Welcome aboard yoeddy!

Glad to get your experiences and point of view.

gopherhockey

11-29-2003, 05:51 PM

Yes, thanks for your thoughts yoeddy... thanks for taking the time to join in the discussion. Sorry its under these circumstances.

Please remember that these are all random opinions and experiences that people have had. (as with all other threads...)

Glad you joined on in... hope you will stick around and voice your opinions often.

SickBoy

11-29-2003, 07:03 PM

slater,

We've met in person and you seem like a really nice guy. Props for standing up and providing us with your experiences, this is obviously a hostile environment that I personally would be inclined to stay away from if I were in your shoes.

I'm not concerned with riders running stop signs or lights. (Well, I am, but to a certain degree sometimes you have to let things go. And I myself am not perfect either. This topic is for another time/place)

When John says that the shop/team has been notified of concerns regarding bad trail etiquette/illegal riding in the River Bottoms or at other MTB trails, and the response was that they "do not claim responsibility" for the people wearing their jerseys, that sends up a red flag with me. I realize that my team is smaller but we are definitely concerned about issues that arise with riders on the team. Obviously there is an association between the red and black jersey and a certain type of behavior seen on some public MTB trails.

If perceived notions about cyclists were not an issue in keeping the river bottoms open to bikes, I wouldn't care. That's where the issue lies here. When I slow to walking speed and be sure to say hi and be friendly to people when in the river bottoms (specifically to leave a good impression so as not to get us kicked out of there) it pisses me off a LOT when others are not even being considerate at ALL.

Yah, it's unfair to corner a certain club regarding behavior of their riders. Doing that only knocks off a fraction of the "offenders". However, my concern is not to put handcuffs on every person who is rude on the trail or rides through the bird sanctuary, it is to keep the River Bottoms open to bikes. Every person that I talk to about the issue is a small victory.

I think the point of this thread is not to bash any one person or group, at least it wasn't originally. It's to keep an area that we all enjoy open to bikes. I don't think anyone here really wants to go on a witch hunt.

The River Bottoms is the number one most endangered trail (as far as land access rights go) in the Twin Cities and I would be willing to bet in the whole state as well. It's certainly the most endangered trail when you consider how many people would be impacted by its closure to bikes.

Let's work together here. Denying that a problem exists as well as witchhunting gets us nowhere. Let's do what we can to raise awareness and keep the trail open. Small steps....

Andy Kruse

cc to Slater and TIm Mulrooney via email

SickBoy

11-29-2003, 07:21 PM

I'll also add one more thing.

Flanders is NOT the only team which leads rides through the R.B.. Birchwood/GIS, Squadra Corsa, Superteam Racing, SPBRC, as well as my team (Tonka/MCT) all use the River Bottoms for team rides. (at least from my personal observations)

If we really want to make progress with trail use issues, an open letter to all MCF clubs regarding trail etiquette may be in order. I think our concern is to eliminate causes of "squeaky wheel" type issues that may work their way back to the DNR and wind up working against us in our fight to keep bikes in the River Bottoms.

--andy

gopherhockey

11-29-2003, 08:16 PM

Originally posted by SickBoy
Let's work together here. Denying that a problem exists as well as witchhunting gets us nowhere. Let's do what we can to raise awareness and keep the trail open. Small steps....

I don't think this could have been said better.... hopefully we can all learn a little when discussions like this take place and do what we can for the better of our sport. Well said...

Don Youngdahl

11-29-2003, 10:50 PM

Originally posted by SickBoy

When I slow to walking speed and be sure to say hi and be friendly to people when in the river bottoms (specifically to leave a good impression so as not to get us kicked out..........

Andy's important words "slow to walking speed" hits on a very important aspect of our efforts to be courteous in sharing the trail with hikers. Lots of riders who sincerely believe in courteous riding, and think they are practicing it, will ride past hikers safely standing a foot or two off the trail, at a brisk 10-15 mph pace, and likely give a friendly wave or "Hi". Sorry guys, that's not enough.

Although that is most likely a safe pass with the rider in full control, the hiker may not realize that. Remember, an important thing in our trail courtesy is the perception ***in the mind of the hiker*** of his safety and your courtesy. If his perception is that you were riding too fast or risking his safety, your good intentions and actual safe riding don't count for much. The only way to be sure you are deemed a courteous rider is to SLOW DOWN TO WALKING SPEED when you meet or pass hikers.

Don Youngdahl

yoeddy

11-30-2003, 06:28 AM

Andy,

Thank you for acknowledging that other teams ride the trail, I will leave one more reply and then take your advice and stay out of it.

Just for the record Scott has and does remind people to ride safely on the river bottoms. Can he take responsibility for a rider wearing his jersey riding the river bottoms that cannot be identified?????? It's hard and this is one of the inherit problems of having a team.

I will tell you this, in the last 2 years I remember vividly three separate occations that Scott has told the ride that complaints have been filed about the team and to ride the trails with these complaints in mind. He also reminded people to ride this way regardless if you are on an organized ride or not, and he has asked us to "pass it on".

So, some action has taken place.....is it enough ?? I do not know and personally do not know how much one can do..

The organized rides do ride in control around walkers and we do say "Hi, good morning" etc....just ride with our member Chris Morley who is on almost every Sunday ride, you can't get him to not stop and talk to every hiker....

Anyway my point is that some members of this team love the river bottom and would hate to see it go. It is by far the best local off road trail in the State. We ride with respect to the walkers. Thanks for reading.

River bottoms this morning anyone ??

Slater

SPR

11-30-2003, 07:27 PM

Originally posted by SickBoy
I'll also add one more thing.

Flanders is NOT the only team which leads rides through the R.B.. Birchwood/GIS, Squadra Corsa, Superteam Racing, SPBRC, as well as my team (Tonka/MCT) all use the River Bottoms for team rides. (at least from my personal observations)

If we really want to make progress with trail use issues, an open letter to all MCF clubs regarding trail etiquette may be in order. I think our concern is to eliminate causes of "squeaky wheel" type issues that may work their way back to the DNR and wind up working against us in our fight to keep bikes in the River Bottoms.

--andy
Thanks Andy for your input and keeping rational about this sticky subject.
I'm glad to hear that there are many riders who are using these trails and that any one or none of them could be a rotten apple. It's not fair that any one club should be held as a scapegoat. After all it only takes one rider to be rude and inconsiderate to a hiker or car etc and as a result it reflects on all bikers as a whole.
With that being said I strongly encourage any riders who use the River Bottoms to take some time next Spring and join in some trail work. There is a lot of work planned next year and the more help would be appreciated. Nothing beats the satisfaction of working on a trail that you ride. Keep posted to these fourms to find out when the work begins.