Lightweight vs Heavy

[manual63]

I have been riding my P.2 for the last few months out at Leb and on the street. The thing must weigh about 35 pounds or so. It also has platforms on it. Yesturday I took my Schwinn Moab 1 out to Leb after putting a shorter stem on it. It's not the lighest bike, but pretty light. I also used my clipless pedals. The differences are unreal. I was able to toss that Schwinn around like it was nothing and I could just fly without even getting that winded.

I am not a gram counter, but having a lighter bike makes a huge difference. I think rotating weight is also a big factor. I have much lighter wheels on the Schwinn and lighter tires. The only thing I didn't like doing on the Schwinn, when compared to the P.2, was jumping the table. Everything else was a lot easier because of the lighter bike.

Having clipless also makes a big difference. You wouldn't think being able to pull up on the back stroke, if that's what you want to call it, would make such a huge difference, but it does. Climbing was a lot easier and I used my legs more and saved my lungs and upper body for other things.

I am sure most of you know these things and the reasons are obvious, but to actually experience the differences first hand is a little bit educational.

[funky-funky-chicken]

I would be curious about what your reaction might be if you simply tried the clipless pedals on the P.2. One truly memorable cycling experience in my life was the first time that I had ever used clipless pedals. Being "connected" to the bike makes a big difference in what it feels like.

The weight difference for me is not as big. The weight difference between a 25 pound bike and a 30 pound bike with a 180 pound rider (like me) is only like 2%.

[manual63]

I disagree. I think 5 pounds on a bike makes a huge difference. Your body weight can't really be included in the equation much. Sure, losing 10 or 15 pounds helps, but 5 pounds on a bike makes a much bigger difference. Wheel weight is also very important because it's rotational weight. I don't know the exact equation, but rotational weight is very crucial. I remeber when I raced BMX. One time I took a jumping bike to the track and it had 48 spoke wheels on it. It was much slower out of the starting gate and coming out of corners than my racing bike which had 36 spoked wheels. So instead of being in 1st or 2nd place like I was used to, I was in 6th or 7th. My body weight was the same and it made no difference.

[Crash]

I agree with Shad here. When I switched from a 25+ lb bike to my current 20-21lb ride I noticed a huge difference in my ability to handle the bike and "throw" it around corners. It has definately made me a better and faster rider. The guys I ride with noticed a big difference in my speed and abilities too.

Now I have also ridden at times when I weighed +/- 5lbs and it didn't make near the difference.

I'm not saying that being in better shape wouldn't also help me a ton too, but the bike definately makes a big difference.

[funky-funky-chicken]

Sorry in advance for my long comment…

The problem for me is in truly being able to analyze the differences between bikes. I wish there were an objective way to compare bikes, but there is not. Sure, you could build some type of machine to test one condition or another, but it does not factor in the human (read motor) element. I am a skeptic by nature and I have a hard time taking the marketing spew from magazines and different bike manufactures as fact when it is mostly just pseudo-science and bull$hit opinion.

We tend to put bikes down on a spec sheet and make component to component comparisons or hang them on a scale and say the one that weighs less is better or the part that costs more must be better. We recall our physics lessons and use them to apply to our bikes. We regurgitate some crap about rotational mass and say that less is more.

I say, it all depends. IMHO, we all have good days and great days when riding. (Sometimes there are even off days, but a day on a bike beats just about anything else :p) Sometimes, you can ride one day and it feels like the brakes are dragging and you have flat tires. The next day, ride, or even lap, it can feel like you are riding downhill with a tailwind, there is helium in your bikes tubes, and someone coated the ground with Teflon (or WD40 for Chris.) It makes comparing things extremely difficult.

It would be great if you could publish objective results of testing bikes like they do cars. You have the skidpad, 0-60 times, stopping distance from XXX mph, quarter mile, top speed, and etcetera. Unfortunately most comparisons are left to some bit of marketing crap that we read from one manufacturer that gets applied universally to everything.

Weight is not always a penalty. I have found that the extra 2 pounds that I have added onto my most current bike over my last bike does not seem like a penalty at all. My lap times are down, I am more comfortable, and I am more confident than ever before. So, do I think more weight is a bad thing… Nope. (By the way, all of the extra weight is concentrated in my wheels… My back wheel is with a Rohloff Speedhub.)

There are many different things that can be done on a mountain bike. Downhill, cross country, singlespeed, urban assault, trials, cyclecross. Any bike devoted to one task will be a compromise for the others. Factor in on top of the different styles of bikes different materials, equipment, tires, brakes, gearing, geometry, body position and it adds up to overwhelming choices. The benefit is that when you find something that works for you… that is all that matters and we are left to discuss opinion, psychology, and philosophy.

It’s all good. Thank you Shad for sharing your impressions about your two different bikes.

[KleinCrazy]

Good points but you agreed with Shad's about rotational mass without knowing it.

Your new bike is now 2 pounds heavier due to the Speed Hub.

The Speed hub adds a minimum amount of rotational mass and thus will have very little effect on how the bike feels to you, other than shifting, etc. Rotational mass is a logrythmic (sp?) calculation if I remember correctly, distance from center of rotation and weight have a log factor on rotational force.

If you had added a downhill rim to your bike and higher spoke countm thick tubes and heavy tires that added up to 2 pounds the effect you would have felt on your bike would have been huge compared to just adding a 2 pound speed hub at the center of rotation.

I agree that the motor of a bike is a very variable factor, and thus all bike comparisons only really work if the engine is the same over a period of time.

[ostertoaster85]

Here's an interesting idea.

I don't know if you guys ever experiance this, but the bike becomes part of you. Like it's just another limb on your body.
(This normally happens when your having a really good ride.)

Thus, adding 5 pounds to the bike is not like adding five pounds to the rider. It's like adding five pounds to the riders leg or arm or any other limb of their body. And that would significantly mess up agility.

(This just kind of popped into my head so it might not make sense.)

[funky-funky-chicken]

The rotational mass argument is one that seems to be used a lot by the marketing forces. If they want you to buy off on the 29" wheel concept, they chose to ignore it. If however, they are trying to sell you some new light weight set of wheels it is incredibly important.

I think that the same argument is being used by companies who currently only offer 26" wheeled mountainbikes while engineers scramble to design and build 29'rs. It will be interesting in years to come to see where designs go.

Quite frankly, it ALL leaves me a bit puzzled and adds to the great mystery of bicycles. Further making buying and riding decisions complicated would be the "weight and where it is added to bike" statistic. Could it be something like the weight distribution for cars?:confused:

It is not just the wheels that rotate of course. One might use the rotational mass argument for shoes, pedals, cranks, chain, etc. One thing is for sure, we will never be able to keep pace with technology in the bicycle arena unless of course you have some serious cash to burn. If you are considering upgrades or evaluating something new, I am sure you will find a wealth of different opinions.

[Dr. Guitar]

For me it's like this.

Lighter weight means more miles. Your body can move the bike for longer periods of time.

Heavy can take the pounding. If you aren't wanting to take an all afternoon ride, but just go out and get nuts, you want a rugged bike.

However, you keep building your distance up on that P2, you will be a blur to everyone else on the Schwinn.

[manual63]

Originally posted by ostertoaster85
Here's an interesting idea.

I don't know if you guys ever experiance this, but the bike becomes part of you. Like it's just another limb on your body.
(This normally happens when your having a really good ride.)

Thus, adding 5 pounds to the bike is not like adding five pounds to the rider. It's like adding five pounds to the riders leg or arm or any other limb of their body. And that would significantly mess up agility.

(This just kind of popped into my head so it might not make sense.)

That is an excellent way to explain it.........to me, that is what it is like.

[manual63]

Originally posted by Dr. Guitar
However, you keep building your distance up on that P2, you will be a blur to everyone else on the Schwinn.

The P.2 is why I had to put a super short stem on my Schwinn. So now I have been riding my Schwinn which handles much better with the short stem. I feel really fast out there on the Schwinn because it seems so light and I can just pound up the hills like they are not there.

The issue with marketing and buying bikes and parts is a tough one. I feel sorry for less experienced riders because they don't know what they want or need as well and they have to trust others for their info. For me, I have been riding long enough to know what I want, which makes it easier for me to buy stuff. Sometimes I come across new ideas for my bike to help me ride better, like the shorter stem, which is cool to discover sometimes.

I do ask to ride other peoples bikes sometimes just so I can see if I would like it. Since I have been riding long enough, I notice right away if there is a difference or an advantage for me. As for weight, it's like I said, I don't count grams, but 5 pounds is a huge difference for me.

[Kingbozo]

The issue with marketing and buying bikes and parts is a tough one. I feel sorry for less experienced riders because they don't know what they want or need as well and they have to trust others for their info. For me, I have been riding long enough to know what I want, which makes it easier for me to buy stuff.

I know what you mean. When I decided that I wanted a new bike, what I wanted wasn't available yet unless you wanted to spend MAJOR bucks on an Intense or Ellsworth. I was looking for a reasonably lightweight full suspension bike with 4-5 inches of travel, preferably four/bar Horst link that wasn't going to cost an arm and a leg. It was hard to find something that fit that description 4 years ago.