FS vs a Hardtail in climbing

[manitouman84]

Here is my blurb from another forum related to climbing technical trails and my arguement that FS shouldnt help. I figured it would make for a good debate, to the webmaster of MORC, I think there should be a fighting words (bike mag) column in the forums. But here it is, and the debate, is FS good or bad for climbing, and one clause is that using a shock lock out as an arguement doesnt count, lock-out from good suspension design can however be argued. Here is my opening blurb...

Oh and for those that think FS helps climbing thats great, maybe in some freaky way it does? and I do agree in that an FS will help keep a wheel grounded thus increasing traction, but physics also says that the force of the pedals will send the suspension into a bob, thus sending the force into the suspension itself, sucking from pedaling power. However, refuting what I just said in that FS increases traction, on a good XC FS bike the suspension should be inactive in the pedaling motion anyway, thus the wheel shouldnt be forcing itself into the ground when climbing, and no gain in traction. Correct me if im wrong, I actually think this makes for a good forum debate so im going to start a thread. :D

If you cant already tell, I ride a hardtail.

[nigel]

Hrmmm Well Ive had both types. The thing of it for me is that one is not faster nor slower than the other. However, I would have to say that the full boinger does (or did, got rid the damned thing) feel much slower on climbs and flats. even though I could lock it out I could tell the difference from my hardtail.

I choose the hardtail, for the feel of the trail. I actually prefer a stiff frame that transfers the trail. I think it makes me ride smarter and choose better lines, rather than when i had a full and just rode over whatever I wanted. When I went back to a hardtail, I actually had to re-learn some technical skills!!

I would have to say that hardtails climb much better than full boingers, and to even further that, my best climbing hardtail has been my Monocog rigs, you actually have to think about balance, cadence, bar torque and ride setup.

:crazy:

[gopherhockey]

This is a difficult debate that seems to go on and on with many forums.. and is always an interesting one.

Again, I wish I had kept it - but I had a bike magazine article from like Feb 03' that put some science to why a FS bike *can* be better on climbs. Stuff as you mentioned - keeping the wheels on the ground, transfering less negative feedback to the rider etc. They weren't all that "and here is the proof" about it, but they explained it well and then went on to talk about how many pro riders are switching (supposedly not just because their bike sponsors wanted them too)

But - as an earlier argument went, it seems a lot of this can come down to preference. I wouldn't be faster on a hardtail for sure. My anti-bob FS bike made me much faster this year, but when I ride a hardtail I feel like I'm getting beat up and the bike is less in control. (all of this is also experience, of course)

I think in the day of VPP design that BOB is much less a concern. I think there are FS bikes that would beat hardtails, but also think most FS bikes would not. I think the industry is getting it right with the frames and shocks that are set out to resolve this.

A bike that doesn't compress via the rider, but does compress via bumps when necessary should be the ideal IMHO. These days you almost cannot lump them into just 2 categories, however.

[manual63]

Oh nooooo, not again...........

[Kingbozo]

I think that the numerous "stable platform" shock designs that are out or are coming out will soon render this discusion moot.

[gopherhockey]

Originally posted by manual63
Oh nooooo, not again...........

You are right. What I should have done is pointed out that we debated this earlier (and even had a poll on it)

I believe it is in the General area - probably back a few pages now...

[socrates]

Originally posted by gopherhockey
You are right. What I should have done is pointed out that we debated this earlier (and even had a poll on it)

I believe it is in the General area - probably back a few pages now...

Come on guys...you just never give up do you....FS is much better at climbing (and everything else)!!!! :D

[manitouman84]

Originally posted by nigel7780

I choose the hardtail, for the feel of the trail. I actually prefer a stiff frame that transfers the trail. I think it makes me ride smarter and choose better lines, rather than when i had a full and just rode over whatever I wanted. When I went back to a hardtail, I actually had to re-learn some technical skills!!


Yeah I have to agree with you, riding a hardtail can make you a much smarter rider. I think I do much stupider things on an FS because I just dont care, its not as hard when you can just ride over anything.

Sorry guys, I missed the other forum on this, but I guess I just brought it back from the dead again. :confused:

[manitouman84]

Originally posted by socrates
Come on guys...you just never give up do you....FS is much better at climbing (and everything else)!!!! :D

FS is better for the weak!

[Dr. Guitar]

Hardtail all the way! Wait... a FS could be good for climbing. All that extra weight from unneeded shocks could help with traction. I think that true XC riding is done with a hardtail. Yes there are times when I would like a rear shock, but that is when I am bombing a small part of a trail. Consider me a minimalist if you like. The less you have on the bike, the less to break. I don't even like the idea of having to get 9 speed rear wheels with new bikes.

I went to Snake Creek this sunday. There are a couple .5 mile climbs there. Yes they can be done with FS. But why would you want to? Keep the bike light and nimble.

As for fatigue on the body, get a suspension seatpost. I had too. When I started out riding, my body could rebound. Now days my back will wear out at about the 5 mile point with out. I can stay a little heavier in the saddle now, thus keeping more weight on my rear wheel, and 15+ mile rides are back in my forte.

[socrates]

Originally posted by Dr. Guitar
Hardtail all the way! Wait... a FS could be good for climbing. All that extra weight from unneeded shocks could help with traction. I think that true XC riding is done with a hardtail. Yes there are times when I would like a rear shock, but that is when I am bombing a small part of a trail. Consider me a minimalist if you like. The less you have on the bike, the less to break. I don't even like the idea of having to get 9 speed rear wheels with new bikes.

I went to Snake Creek this sunday. There are a couple .5 mile climbs there. Yes they can be done with FS. But why would you want to? Keep the bike light and nimble.

As for fatigue on the body, get a suspension seatpost. I had too. When I started out riding, my body could rebound. Now days my back will wear out at about the 5 mile point with out. I can stay a little heavier in the saddle now, thus keeping more weight on my rear wheel, and 15+ mile rides are back in my forte.

I've got both a HT & a FS...maybe it's because the FS is a Klien but I'm telling you don't knock it until you ride one...I use to say the same things about FS until I road the Klien....it's kicka**!!!! The extra weight is only a few ounces, I can climb better, feel like I'm actually more in control, and I know I'm able to actually take the trail at a much faster speed than on my HT

[Hardtailforever]

There are obviously times when FS has an advantage, but this has never been while climbing in my experience. Of course, from my username it should be obvious where I'm coming from in this. I've ridden a number of FS rigs, including some of the "best" climbers around- Giant NRS and Specialized Epic, and I still prefer my Homegrown for climbing. FS has an advantage for general trail riding, but for all out climbing and sprinting power (where races are won and lost), there is no question in my mind that a hardtail is superior with proper riding technique.

[Trevize1138]

*THUD THUD THUD*

Woo hoo! Beating up this dead horse is so much fun!

*THUD THUD THUD*

Seriously, folks, get a hardtail with a seatpost suspension! :crazy2: Talk about the best of both worlds: the lighter weight and direct power transfer of a hardtail and the plush, mostly-seated ride of a full suspension! You can feel the texture of the trail through your pedals, but your butt thinks you're ridin' a Lexus!

;)

[socrates]

Originally posted by Trevize1138
*THUD THUD THUD*

Woo hoo! Beating up this dead horse is so much fun!

*THUD THUD THUD*

Seriously, folks, get a hardtail with a seatpost suspension! :crazy2: Talk about the best of both worlds: the lighter weight and direct power transfer of a hardtail and the plush, mostly-seated ride of a full suspension! You can feel the texture of the trail through your pedals, but your butt thinks you're ridin' a Lexus!

;)

Yeah but you weren't riding a Lexus but a Hyundai, looks alot like a Lexus but it's still a Hyundai

[jaybird]

It's a shame to see we still argue about things like FS vs. HT, and creamy vs. crunchy, or mayo vs. miracle whip. Why can't we all just understand our differences and move on. PLEASE!!!! :cryin:










j/k :laugh:

[gopherhockey]

I think part of the reason this debate keeps coming up is due to all the technology improvements in the FS bikes. This year there were 4 that could rival any hardtail for climbing. Next year there will be more. Add to this improvements in front suspension (reduced BOB etc.) and we'll soon see this issue be one of cost and maintenance only, not one of which one does certain technical things better.

If you can't racen and do well on a FS bike, then don't ride one. If you can't on a hardtail, don't ride one. If you can't decide, read the mags and watch what others are riding out there and winning on. Find what the best riders were using a few years ago and what they are riding now... the trend is fairly clear.

If it is a matter of what a person likes, then ride whatever you think works best for you.

Here horsey horsey... SMACK... WHeeeeeeeeee... CRACK.

:fool:

[Trevize1138]

Originally posted by socrates
Yeah but you weren't riding a Lexus but a Hyundai, looks alot like a Lexus but it's still a Hyundai

Well, see ... you may have Lexus suspension on your Klein, but you've got a Hyundai motor ...

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[Trevize1138]

Originally posted by gopherhockey

If it is a matter of what a person likes, then ride whatever you think works best for you.

WRONG!

The path of evil: Right side of the rock garden on an FS bike

The path of righteousness: Left side of the rock garden on a hardtail.

[socrates]

Originally posted by Trevize1138
Well, see ... you may have Lexus suspension on your Klein, but you've got a Hyundai motor ...

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

Might be but I was keeping up with you fairly well yesterday :D (it's amazing what alittle air in the tires can do)

[socrates]

Originally posted by Trevize1138
WRONG!

The path of evil: Right side of the rock garden on an FS bike

The path of righteousness: Left side of the rock garden on a hardtail.


Done both sides...but I prefer the left...so I'd have to just conclude "Path of Godliness: riding a single track on a FS"

[Kingbozo]

Originally posted by gopherhockey
I think part of the reason this debate keeps coming up is due to all the technology improvements in the FS bikes. This year there were 4 that could rival any hardtail for climbing. Next year there will be more. Add to this improvements in front suspension (reduced BOB etc.) and we'll soon see this issue be one of cost and maintenance only, not one of which one does certain technical things better.

If you can't racen and do well on a FS bike, then don't ride one. If you can't on a hardtail, don't ride one. If you can't decide, read the mags and watch what others are riding out there and winning on. Find what the best riders were using a few years ago and what they are riding now... the trend is fairly clear.

If it is a matter of what a person likes, then ride whatever you think works best for you.

Here horsey horsey... SMACK... WHeeeeeeeeee... CRACK.

:fool:

And if you don't race, go with what you feel allows you to have the MOST FUN on your friggin bike-because, in the end, THAT is what is all about!

[manual63]

Originally posted by gopherhockey
I think part of the reason this debate keeps coming up is due to all the technology improvements in the FS bikes. This year there were 4 that could rival any hardtail for climbing. Next year there will be more. Add to this improvements in front suspension (reduced BOB etc.) and we'll soon see this issue be one of cost and maintenance only, not one of which one does certain technical things better.

How come bicycle companies with small budgets gain so much progress in so few years, but Detroit can't?........:D

[Trevize1138]

Originally posted by socrates
Might be but I was keeping up with you fairly well yesterday :D (it's amazing what alittle air in the tires can do)

That definitely adds more proof to what all the reasonable riders here are saying: ride what you're most comfortable with!

Dave rides FS, I ride hardtail, but (despite my wise cracks about a Hyundai motor) we're both pretty well-matched on the trail. As are most of the MORC riders. During group rides, there's a nice mix in the group of hardtail and FS riders, and they all take their turns at leading the pack. :)

[manual63]

Originally posted by Trevize1138
During group rides, there's a nice mix in the group of hardtail and FS riders, and they all take their turns at leading the pack. :)

That's because we let them......:D

[Dr. Guitar]

All I have to say, is forget how fast he can go vs. how fast you can go. The dude on the unicycle is more hardcore than any of you!

When was the last time anyone rode a rigid? It has been forever for me. I had a friend that owned a Cannondale m800 Beast of the East. That was all he ever rode. That bike was brutal to ride. High BB and stiff as hell. I would like to see the guy who can keep pace with any of us on a bike like that.

I had another idea earlier durring the tour. Spawned by this FS vs. HT, I would like it if there was a second Tour de France, only everyone rode identicle bikes. Lets see who really knows how to ride.

[socrates]

Originally posted by Dr. Guitar
All I have to say, is forget how fast he can go vs. how fast you can go. The dude on the unicycle is more hardcore than any of you!


I couldn't agree more...that guy is awesome!

[manual63]

You see, to me it's about the feel of a bike. I need to feel the road, so to speak. Everytime I ride an FS bike, I feel like I am driving a Cadillac and just can't feel a thing. I think it is important to have a feel for the trail, just like a feel for the road in a sportier car. It took me so long to get used to a suspension fork and I still don't like some of the disadvantages of it. Chirs recently added a suspension post to his hardtail and that makes his @ss feel better over the rough stuff and allows him to stay seated more, but he still has a feel for the trail with his legs.

Like I said before, unless I am doing some outlandish (hey, I didn't have to say Extreme!) downhill rides, I will not have a need for an FS bike.

Maybe FS bikes have come a long way, but until I can get one that has a good feel for the trail, I don't want one, nor do I think I need one. Debate all you want, but choose what's best for you and not what someone argues here on the board. It's about a 50/50 battle so you will just have to ride both types of bikes and find out what is best for you. I heard Gravity Labs has a test track, check them out.

[Dr. Guitar]

If I won the lotto, I would have a custom XC FS bike made for me. However, I'm on wages. There isn't a FS bike with rear suspension, that I think I would like, anywhere near my price range.


P.S. I would also have a harem of hardtails custom made for me as well.

[nord0306]

Originally posted by manual63
How come bicycle companies with small budgets gain so much progress in so few years, but Detroit can't?........:D

Because we don't force them too, they still sell tons of cars by changing the headlights.

Anyway, on topic. I wouldn't drive a car without suspension, and that's on paved roads.

[socrates]

Originally posted by nord0306
Because we don't force them too, they still sell tons of cars by changing the headlights.

Anyway, on topic. I wouldn't drive a car without suspension, and that's on paved roads.

Exactly on both counts!!!!!!!!!! :etard:

[Trevize1138]

Originally posted by nord0306

Anyway, on topic. I wouldn't drive a car without suspension, and that's on paved roads.

That's why you ride a full-suspension road bike? :eyeroll:

[pwpatton]

I had an older technology FS and it bobbed like mad. Like a caddy with bad shocks. Frankly, for climbing, it sucked. So I bought a hard tail. Result: hurt my ass on bumpy trails (which sucks). So I bought a "stable platform" FS bike (A Giant NRS) and after about 3-6 months of getting used to a new bike (pretty standard for me) I have finally decided that I have the best of both worlds. I have a FS that can climb like a hard tail but absorbs the bumps just enough to keep from hurting. I can also decent at a much higher speed than with my HT. Don't believe me? Give one a try (not just an NRS but any "stable platform" bike). You just might be surprised.

Phillip

[nord0306]

Originally posted by Trevize1138
That's why you ride a full-suspension road bike? :eyeroll:
I would if traction was an issue, but it's not. The only issue is how long you can pedal at 25mph and then how fast you can sprint after doing 25mph for 2hrs. Either situation does not require traction.

In support of full-suspension road bikes, nobody is buying a '89 cannondale road bike because the frames are too stiff. Therefore people are buying less stiff frames, which in my book is suspension. The only thing that the current "full-suspension" frames are lacking are heavy hydraulic dampers. They have attempted in the last couple years to use certain composites and rubber type materials to incorporate damping into road bikes. This has been moderatly successfull in ride characteristics and incredibly successfull in marketing.