Why did you race last year?

[jaybird]

I got a chance to talk to Adam and Greg at Bluff Riders last weekend and was disappointed to here how big of a drop in numbers attendance has been. They said it's been across the board in nearly all divisions that the drop has occurred.

I know of only one race that's been dropped this year that was from series last year. So if all the races are still going, what's keeping everyone from showing up?

[nigel]

Well, for me its work :( I work at a shop so I get stuck being there every darn race Sunday. I would show up If we had the staff to handle it, but being a turn-key kinda stops that. So I get to do the racing I really like.....24 hour events!! At least I can do those races!

As for the Tuesdays at Afton....I love those races but the time does not work for me this season. Also road crits, wheelman rides and trail days!!

As for Thursdays at Buck...Well, never really liked the "feel" of those races, seems like just a big Penn Cycles gathering and so on.....(not flaming just how it seems to me)

I do know that quite a few people have stopped racing this year and previous years in the State Series just due to lack of fun for them. Not sure what they mean by it, I have not done major series race since NORBA was here, when they left so did I, but thats another can O' worms.

I have noticed quite a slow down in mtn bike sales at the shop...the economy does not help that one though. When I do ask customers if they race or if they will, I prolly get 4 outa 10 saying that its way to intimidating for them. I can see that, but then again they just have to get out there and race too!

It seems that participation would be better if more of a festival atmosphere would be brought back....I recall doing race weekends where there would be tents galore of stuff to look at (c'mon bike reps you know who you are!!) and the races would be kick butt, the hill climb, the short course, the long course, the bike toss, FOOD!!!! Now I know none of this can happen without participation.

It also is happening in road racing from what Im hearing as well, low turnouts, crappy fields, bad prizes ect..... Not sure how we can get people back into it, but im game to help out in any way I can. I do know that I need to get back into racing myself, only gonna get old and slow if I dont :)

Douglas

[legoshoe]

I second the thought on the people saying that it is way to intimidating for them. I've asked friends and fellow mtn. bikers around my area and the #1 reason they say they don't race is that it looks way too advanced for them or that they think they couldn't do such a thing because of the 'degree of difficulty'.

Just a thought. What could be done about this is make the 'citizen' class rides sound more appealing and friendly to cyclists new to biking and for people that have biked forever but have been shyed away from racing. By trying to get more people involved in the citizen classes after being convinced that it isn't like a death march, soon people will possibly enjoy racing and as they get better, they move up and friends join in. Again, just a thought.

Anyways, I haven't gotten to race yet this year because of vacations, location, and having my tire get torn before the Bluff Riders.

[nigel]

I also know that since NORBA left....."sandbaging" or riding in a class below your ability has seem to run rampant. There has to be some sort of class system that works better, there are also road riders riding below their class since they do not have to register mtn abilities. That can make riders who are really Citizen or Sport class feel slow as heck. I personally know quite a few people who will simply not move up because they like winning or coming in the top 10. No matter what I say matters to them. Guess you cant get through to everyone, even if you know em.

[SickBoy]

Yeah I know of at least one incident last year where a classless (literally) Cat 2 roadie from a local club (that shall remain nameless) showed up at one of the Mt. Kato races and raced sport. That's just wrong...

For me, it's a combination of a few things. First thing that goes out the door with a series is the races where I hate the course. Sorry Afton and Mt Kato. Plus a lot of riders have chosen to skip over to focus on road races and I hate to admit it, but I am one of them.

Also I think there's a certain disdain for the guys who used to run the MNSCS floating around. I won't say anything specific, but I have heard some rumors that kinda make me not want to come to their races.

[grizzly adam]

I voted for the Challenge of it. I did my first mountain bike race at Lutsen on my rigid MB-1, just to see what it was like - and I got hooked!

I like the different atmosphere at the races. I don't always do well or finish for that matter, but it's a different feeling than going out for a ride. It's the adrenaline of riding behind someone better than you and sometimes passing that person. Or holding off the person behind you and sprinting for the finish. It puts all of your senses on full alert and takes you to the limit.

It's also a time to share your passion for riding with others. Whether it's stories of previous races or cheering for the rider who is doing their first race ever. It's a total love for the sport.

As far as the overall numbers being down, I had no idea that the fact that there wasn't a series would scare that many people away.

I think that in recent years, the whole idea of racing has become too much about "what do I get!" instead of for the thrill, and ultimately, the fun of it. I just recently talked to a race promoter and a common response to lower numbers has been partially due to the prize list not being big enough or the award money not large enough. It seems to me that racers are too greedy. Are the events not fun enough in themselves? Is the thrill of the race not enough by itself? Its my view that a lot fo the new riders/racers are picking up on this feeling and therefore keeping them from expanding on the wonderful sport of cycling. The newbies think that it looks tough or that it's too competitive. We either need events that are more fun or we need the racers to be there to have a good time and not just for the prizes and monies.

I'll admit that it's more fun if I can track my points for the whole season and see where I am compared to eveyone else, but it doesn't make my effort at that race any different if it's gone, or my attendance.

I like the post about the different vendors and tents at races. I think that really adds to the event. Which brings up another thing about promoting events. People always want to DO an event, but nobody wants to HELP do an event. I have talked to people who think it would be "really cool to have this kind of event with that kind of racing!"
"Well, great - you should get started on that."
"Well....ahhh...I want to race it....not plan it."

We saw this happen with the MNSCS. We all enjoyed doing the races but no one wanted to keep it going when Greg and Adam decided to step down (but I also heard that they weren't terribly willing to help hand it over either).

I know that I will continue to do races for the fun and personal challenge of it. I would hope that my stories and experiences can influence new riders to the idea of racing (I guess I better finish a race then!).

Now all you guys, come out and do the Lebanon Hills Time Trial next year!! :D :D

[mnscs]

Also I think there's a certain disdain for the guys who used to run the MNSCS floating around. I won't say anything specific, but I have heard some rumors that kinda make me not want to come to their races.

Sickboy, I've heard some rumors too what kind of rumors are kinda not wanting you to attend an event that I put on?

(but I also heard that they weren't terribly willing to help hand it over either).


grizzly adam, what is it that you've heard about us not wanting to help hand it over to someone? The MNSCS was run as a bussiness and it was available to anyone that was interested. I am sorry to say but no one actively came to us with interest of taking it over.

[grizzly adam]

I remember reading posts on the original MNSCS message board about how some people had approached you with an idea and asked questions and didn't get a reply back. I personally had a thought about trying to keep something going and approached you guys with an email and was given no repsonse what-so-ever. I realize that at the time there were probably thousands of emails coming in and maybe mine got overlooked, but it made me think that things were not capable of being worked out, so I left it alone.

I still appreciate the fact that you guys are putting on races and have the schedule and message boards up. That's why I come to your events - and usually pay the day of! ;)

[martini]

I didn't vote, cuase I didn't do any of the MNSCS races last year. Why? timing and lack there-of on my part. All though, I did do a few races. I don't do them to do well. I know I won't. I'm midpack sport and always will be. I did do Bluff Riders this year though, and was quite impressed with the organization of it. Greg did a great job I think. Andy, I understand why you don't like Afton, But Mt Kato is a totally differnt trail. Did you have a bad experience there once? ;) I may be doing more races in the future, but for now I don't know. I'd like to get up to Duluth for next weekend....
Most of the races I do are more centered on festivals and fun. Pedros/Buzzard Buster, Chequmegon and the like. I always hoted NORBA and the fees and cost of racing with them, so that's why I gave up racing in the first place. It was too expensive. Personally I was glad to see NORBA go. That's also why I try to do a WORBA race every now and then as well.

[SickBoy]

Originally posted by martini
Andy, I understand why you don't like Afton, But Mt Kato is a totally differnt trail. Did you have a bad experience there once? ;)

Yeah, as a matter of fact...I really love the trail but it always seems to be about 95 and super humid there, except of course this year when I skip out.

greg, as far as the "rumors" I've heard, it mostly follows along the lines of what Adam has mentioned, with people wanting to take up the reins and getting a less than cooperative attitude from either you or Adam.

[smeulebroe]

Last year was the first year I raced the series. It was alot of fun. This year I hooked up with Bent Crank Racing and have had even more fun racing with new friends. I think I will even move up to sport at my next race. Bottomline racing has improved all of my mtbing skills. The series gave me motivation to get to All of the races. As far as MNSCS goes, I was under the impression that it was a privately run business. That in order to take it over it would require purchasing MNSCS (truck, timing, etc.,).

[jaybird]

So those of you who did race last year, what are we (we as in riders who enjoy to race and MORC members) going to do next year when sponsors continue to drop these races because of lack of participation? I know I'd do what I can to keep Bluff Riders going next year because I want to support my local area trails. But is anyone going to go out of there way to support Powder Monday @ Spirit Mtn or Muddy River @ Red Wing?

Sponsorship is going to be the number one threat next year to keep our summer activities going. If we don't start planning for this now, by next spring it will be too late to get the financial help these groups will need to put on the events we enjoy.

[dennis porter]

Well, My take on this whole thing is a few different factors....

1. Age. Alot of the people that used to race alot. Now are racing around with their families. If they are like me they would love to race but getting away all day is not very easy.
2. Promotion. More is needed.
3. Some may disagree but races need to cater to the beginners. They will be the future racers. It's too intimidating for new riders to try racing.
4. Cycling is down all over. Read the studies. Americans are getting lazier.
5. Races used to be more low key. Now some get mad if you don't move out of the way quick enough. Not good sportsmanship.

The races at Buck Hill have alot of Penn people there because Penn Cycle puts them on. However, they are low key and meant to be fun. The only problem is Buck Hill is not very beginner friendly. I can usually make those. Hopefully people will continue to go. I'd hate to see those go due to lack of involvement.

Any person that puts on a race deserves a pat on the back. It's not easy. Those that are (Greg) nice job, I hope you keep doing it.
Dennis.

[John Sandberg]

Observations from an old fart:

The popularity of a given sport like MTB racing goes up and down. We've been seeing a downward trend lately, but at some point it will go back up -- IF the RIGHT ingredients are there. What are they?

Races have to be fun, which means fun courses and fun atmosphere. Dennis "Felch Man" Porter suggested easier courses to entice beginners (ala WORS). Much as I didn't like those courses, he's probably correct.

Sadly, we're so limited to where we can hold races in the near-metro area that ski hills have become predominant location. Problem here is that the climbs aren't fun, and are too tough for beginners. Hell, they're too tough for me to have fun anymore.

I would guess that courses like Elk River, Milaca and Glencoe would be better for beginners, but historically these races haven't drawn the numbers either. Perhaps they're just a bit too far away for some of the metro riders who are just starting to race? It would be interesting to see what a well-promoted, mass-start race at Lebanon Hills would draw for numbers. My guess: a lot.

I remember about 8 years ago a race held on the fringe of the parking lot of the Renaissance festival (the race was part of an event called the Clean Air Festival). It drew a few hundred racers! The course blew, yet because it was promoted on radio, TV and through all the bike shops, it drew the numbers. Of course, that was when MTB racing was really popular, but still.

Sick Boy suggesting that attendance is down because of some rumors or problems with MNSCS is ridiculous. Maybe three people aren't coming because they felt slighted in some way, but that's it. I don't know what he's referring to, so I'm pretty confident that new riders don't either.

Also, the idea that we need more prize money for experts is just as wrong. The 10 guys who race to collect money aren't a factor in getting new people to show, and if any one of these guys complain about not making money I will personally soak their toilet paper with Tobasco sauce. It's never been about the money, local races shouldn't cater to the two-percent crowd. If they want to make money racing bikes, get a road bike and start traveling.

The only kind of MTB racing that seems to grow or remain "as popular" these days is 24-hour or 12-hour races. There's a festival-like atmosphere at these, and I think that's a good ingredient getting people to show.

We also need some variety. Who isn't a little sick and tired of racing at Buck and Afton? A return to racing in Hudson would seem ideal (solid population to pull from, interesting geography for races).

Of course, the sport needs new people to help run the races, to organize and create teams and such. Teams like Kenwood, Salsa, Bookoo, Eriks and such need to step up to the plate and organize their own races, maybe at places like Glencoe, Hudson, Elk River and a mass-start at Lebanon. Every little "seed" that gets planted helps the sport grow.

These same questions and answers have been thrown back and forth for as long as I can remember. Sometimes people do something about it, sometimes they don't. There's nothing WRONG with having smaller numbers of racers as long as the promoters are satisified with the return on their financial and labor investment.

[SickBoy]

As far as mass start races at Lebanon - being that I have been the promoter for that race for the last two years I would like to point out problems with that.

#1 probably the most important - Parking. Let's face it, the parking lot at Leb cannot support more than 20 or so cars. For the TT I got permission to have people park at the Zoo School about a half mile south on Johnny Cake Ridge road. I didn't hear anyone openly complaining about it (to me) but I know it was on some people's minds.

#2 - mass start feasibility - Dakota County Parks is very sensitive about use of their facilities and even though MORC built the trails there, they are still DCP's trails. Sending 100-200 riders down the opening climb all at once isn't what I want to do to the wonderful trails that have been built there. Mass start racing is undoubtedly hard on trails (look at some of the trails at Buck that have been raced for 10+ years). There isn't enough wide trail to get people adequately seperated out before things get tight. Plus for the start itself - unless I can get permission to use the adjacent soccer field to start everyone (not likely) and have them briefly run on the walking path before riding across the parking lot onto the trail, there just isn't enough room. period. Changes have to be made at that facility to support a mass start race.

So that all being said..... I also would tend to think that a time trial format race would be less intimidating for new riders as well as providing "something different" for the MNSCS/WORS crowd. In 2002 we had 43 riders. 60 this year. What gives??? I know promotion was crappy for 2002 as I didn't have any help but I know the word was out for 2003. Bent Crank Racing did an awesome job of helping promote as well as getting food and swag to give away. I don't think anyone went home empty handed.

I know the Cable Off Road Classic was the same weekend. Maybe I should glance through results for that and see how many Minnesota people I see in the results. Maybe it's a bigger draw than I thought it was.

For 2004 there will likely be a Spring Lebanon TT as well as a Fall TT, both promoted by MCT/Tonka Cycle and Bent Crank. If any other clubs would like to throw their hat in the ring and promote their own event there or help with ours, we'd certainly welcome the help. The Lebanon Hills TT has always (and will always be, so long as I am at the helm) a non-profit race with the proceeds above costs going 100% to MORC.

as far as the issues I have with the MNSCS and what I have heard about it, it affects my stance on attending those races this year but I would agree that it doesn't matter for 99% of the people racing or potentially racing.

[SickBoy]

OK, so an update - I just checked the 2003 Cable classic results. I guess I underestimated the pull and appeal of a mass start race on cross country ski trails. Sheesh. I won't schedule the spring Lebanon TT on the same weekend next year.

[John Sandberg]

Andy-

Kudos to you and whoever helps you with the TT. That's the kind of event that acts as a "seed" to grow entire sport, and it's the kind of effort that gives something back to the sport, which is honorable.

I understand some of the potential problems associated with a 200 racers showing up at Lebanon (as in parking problems) as well as some of the snags about separating riders before hitting the singletrack if it were a mass start. Perhaps the hurdles are too big to clear.

I used this example in my earlier post to ask the question, "How many people would show up to a well-promoted race in the immediate Twin Cities on an awesome singletrack course without any lung-busting climbs?"

The only thing I take exception to in your reply is the plainly wrong statement about mass starts causing errosion. I'm no trail expert, but I think you'll agree that biggest factor in trail errosion is the design of said trail. A poorly designed trail (like most of those that were/are heavily erroded at Buck) can become a mess after a few hundred riders pass, whereas a well designed trail (Lebanon) can withstand tens of thousands.

In defense of the trails at Buck, consider this: For nearly 10 years there have been between 12-20 races (each year) on the same three miles of trail. These races have historically pulled about 120 entries for the Thurs. events, and around 250 for the weekend races. Add to the mix the fact that most races run 4 or more laps and that there have been dozens of wet or rainy races, and when you add it all up it's no wonder some of these trails are so beat. STILL, many sections of these trails remain in fantastic condition.

If you can demonstrate to me that four groups of 50 riders racing 4 laps on a trail will do more damage than 200 well-spaced riders doing 4 laps on the same trail, then I'll shut my cake hole.

Which kind of racing is more likely to draw beginners, mass starts or time trials? Hard to answer with absolute certainty, but when we started running the Thurs. races at Buck, you could still race the Tues. time trial at Hyland Hills. Hyland's course sucked and there were no prizes, but it's arguably a more convenient location than Buck, it was already established (that Tues. series had a 2-year head start at least) and it had promotion from Hennipen Parks. Best of my recollection, they'd pull about 40 racers MAX, and Buck was getting about 120. Of course, we can chalk up 50 of those additional entries to the fact that we can drink beer after the race at Buck...

I hate time trials (which is beside the point), and I believe that most people that want to race are interested in actually RACING. That means catching riders, passing, strategy and a whole bunch of stuff that's part of a mass start, but not in a time trial.

Does this mean I want you or any other promoter to stop running TTs? Absolutely not. Such races are nice ingredients in the soup we call mountain biking. If the goal is to get the greatest number of participants, then I think a mass start is the best option. But getting the most participants doesn't have to be a promoter's goal. Getting ENOUGH racers to justify the effort is all it takes.