XX Loop Feedback & Suggestions

[gopherhockey]

Thought I'd start a thread on this topic so people can post their thoughts after tonights opening.

Just remember that this trail is brand new. It will seem "wider" than it should for the first year... this is by design so riders can find that perfect line though the trail. As time goes by, it will close in and seem more and more like the rest of the singletrack at Lebanon.

We're also not done with obstacles. This is one thing we'd like feedback on. There is plenty of room for more. We also have the teeters yet to place on the loop, hopefully that will happen soon.

Having said that, do not be afraid to give some constructive comments on how we can improve the trail.... to make it more challenging, or even to make bypasses safer etc.

[gopherhockey]

Having pre-ridden the trail myself, I already have a few suggestions.

First, make the rock gardens more difficult. Currently it is fairly easy to ride through them in an almost straight line. We have some rocks yet to place once we see where riders start going, and there are many more up on the hills. (more fun with rock bars!)

[Trevize1138]

I dunno ... trail seems kinda wide to me ...

*smack!*

... sorry ... :hit:

[manual63]

Ride it.... Ride it.... Ride it....

It's too soft, so Ride it......

I liked most of it, but didn't find it as challenging as I wanted. Like John said, the Rock Gardens are too easy. I think the X Loop Rock Garden with the hard right is more difficult than any on the XX Loop.

I like the drop and that left turn down the big rock is fun, but not hard. The table top needs much work, read my jumping info in Riding Tips. I think, if there is room, it would be cool to have a small jump for some riders on the right and a bigger one for crazies on the left, or vise versa.

How about some dirt rolls or even just some consecutive rolls that people can pump through to gain speed. These are a lot of fun. I don't know, maybe I should find time to come out and help with ideas and build.

I am glad people like this XX Loop idea. I like the technical challenge and it adds a ton of fun to the mountain biking experience.

[Rocky Mountain]

I have an old Ford Escort I would like to donate for an obstacle for this trail. It could be like Spirit Mountain's snowboard park. Oh, did I mention I have not ridden the trail yet but it's just an idea I though I would throw out. haha:laugh: Who has ridden the Tetter-Tooter at Theodore-Wirth? That is damn crazy.

[s1ngletracker]

shad, this isnt BMX....... i dont think we need rollers

[Trevize1138]

Originally posted by s1ngletracker
shad, this isnt BMX....... i dont think we need rollers

Fight fight fight!

[s1ngletracker]

the last thing we need is a bunch of bmx stuff to attract those annoying little punk kids and their attitudes to a nice, clean trail like lebanon

shad, no offense, its just my opinion. dont worry, im sure youre not a punk

[KleinCrazy]

The Teeter at Wirth is no More!!!! :(

It had an unfortunate accident last year and is now being used to plank over soem of the Decomposing trash pit holes out on that trail.

There is a very Up/over/down type built thingy after where the Teeter used to be along with a nice narrow 2X6 bridge over a gap with an corner entrace to it.

My avatar shows me coming off of the Theo Teeter last year. That thing came down HARD!!!!! and you had to come off straight or your jammed up againt that tree. If you notice in the picture my front tire is kinda missing the exit rock. The next picture has me jammed front tire first against that tree and the rear tire going up in the air as the teeter goes back up. I somehow was able to hop the rear off and keep from falling over, I can't even remember if I was ever able to cleanly rider out of that Teeter.



hehehe.

[KleinCrazy]

Another something if you want technical challenge to look for out at Theo. (have not yet completed it myself)

No directions given to protect our work on offically recognizing this trail

here is the obstacle.

level railroad tie, no ramp leadin i.e. 8 inch lip to climb. 10 degree turn to next tie going up at about a 25 degree angle. next tie no turn into down at about a 20 degree angle.next tie level, 30-40 degree turn at transition. end of 4th railroad tie, a bent 8 foot piece of railroad rail sitting on it's side going up and down in an arc ( gap between top of rail and bottom of rail i.e. where you have to place your tire, is about the width of a 2.5 tire) exit from rail onto tie #5 almost head on.

I have yet to get beyound tie #4.


comments?

[manual63]

You have no clue what you are talking about "s1ngletracker". Rollers would be a ton of fun and I am not talking BMX here. Also, I do take offense to you calling BMXers a bunch of punk kids. Most of them are respectful and good people. There are just as many Punk mountain bikers out there, but they tend no not like to ride places Like Lebanon Hills. I don't think putting in some cool rollers to sharpen your skills and have fun on would attract a bunch of Punk BMXers or Punk mountain bikers.

Your stereotype is not accepted by me and it is what makes this a messed up world to live in!!!!!!

[gopherhockey]

We're all punks ok??? Simmer down people... ;)

[gopherhockey]

Originally posted by manual63
The table top needs much work, read my jumping info in Riding Tips. I think, if there is room, it would be cool to have a small jump for some riders on the right and a bigger one for crazies on the left, or vise versa.


We were actually going to see if you might show up for trail work Tuesday sometime and help us fix up the tabletop. I mean.. I can clear it just fine, but we know the lip could be different. Someone said it will work in as riders go over it... but... any help you could give would be great.

Remember.. we're not done yet in the XX loop. Much of what we do now is watch for riders lines and throw nice big rocks in the way etc. ;)

I have some ideas for some nice obstacles in some of the less interesting areas of the trail...

I found MANY riders not riding most the obstacles and claiming they are glad to have something to challenge them. I heard lots of whoops and hollars of pure joy back there.

Guess we can't please everyone... :fool:

[socrates]

I'm with Shad...I love rollers!!!!

Rode the trail last night...thing I had most difficulty with was stopping at the entrance to chat with Gopherhockey (can't believe I fell while standing-please delete the pic John)

I believe someone said the same thing but it's not as challenging as I had expected-but in my mind this is good. It's got a good mix of technical stuff and long flowing area; was layed out very well

[emarkwardt]

Any thoughts about putting up more signage for the XX loop? Things like "One Way - Do Not Enter" where the XX loop exits onto the old trail, etc. I met 3 younger guys going the wrong way on the trail yesterday afternoon while I was doing a pre-opening "safety check". :D Told them it was a one-way trail and that they were going the wrong way. "Uh... okay. Where's the entrance at?" Then they kept on going the wrong way. :mad:

[gopherhockey]

Originally posted by socrates

Rode the trail last night...thing I had most difficulty with was stopping at the entrance to chat with Gopherhockey (can't believe I fell while standing-please delete the pic John)

I believe someone said the same thing but it's not as challenging as I had expected-but in my mind this is good. It's got a good mix of technical stuff and long flowing area; was layed out very well

Don't worry - the picture is gone.. ;) I made a lot of people mess up last night... it isn't always fun having a camera in your face the first time you try a new trail... my bad...

I agree it could be more challenging - and it will, in time. We have the core of the trail there and some good obstacles. If we keep getting good turnouts for trail work we'll be able to keep adding or improving. I'd especially like to have those people who have ideas for things to add to come out, or post here with more info.

BTW: Are rollers small bumps like a Whoop section in a Moto-x track?

[gopherhockey]

Originally posted by emarkwardt
Any thoughts about putting up more signage for the XX loop? Things like "One Way - Do Not Enter" where the XX loop exits onto the old trail, etc. I met 3 younger guys going the wrong way on the trail yesterday afternoon while I was doing a pre-opening "safety check". :D Told them it was a one-way trail and that they were going the wrong way. "Uh... okay. Where's the entrance at?" Then they kept on going the wrong way. :mad:

Just before the trail was opened last night I tacked up some signs that say just that. They are temporary until we can replace them with good permanent carsonite signs like the rest of the park - but they do the job now I think.

Now when you look into the exit of the trail you see a bunch of red signs saying "do not enter" "wrong way" and "no friGGin hikers" ;)

We definitely will improve the signs though. Even the temporary yield signs I put back there were fairly hard to see I think.

[s1ngletracker]

Ok, let me set a few things straight, why does everyone want to be so controversial.

first, i didnt say "all" bmx'ers, not even most, i just said the punk kid ones, and dont try to act like they dont exist, theyre always hanging around eden prairie erik's bike shop and i have a right to call them punks, they have tried to pick fights with me.

second, I am not against obstacles, I think technical stuff is awesome and I do need to improve my skills, they are far from impressive. However, i still think we should go with more typical MTB obstacles.

Are you talking about those kind of rollers, like the ones they used to have on the bmx race course at buck?

anyway, i agree that there are many punk mountain bikers, and I dont know where they ride, but i have met some. However, all i know is that there are areas near my house that have dirt jumps and rollers and stuff, and they are littered with young "punk" kids leaving garbage, vandalizing, picking fights, and smoking weed. I have never encountered a group of mountain bikers like that, but that is just my experience.

[gopherhockey]

Originally posted by s1ngletracker
Ok, let me set a few things straight, why does everyone want to be so controversial.

I agree - there needs to be more love in this room.. or ELSE!

;)

BTW: From my experience with BMX riders these days, I usually see kids riding from home to school (or the other way around) backwards on the trail at Leb, or even over the walking trail to cut through faster.

I know that mountain bikers do just as bad or worse.. not to mention hikers too! However, when one witnesses this type of thing and the kids don't even respond when you try talk to them, it is easy to get a bad image and then place it on a whole group.

Thats why as mountain bikers we all need to try act our best out there. All it takes is for people (or Dakota County) to see one mountain biker on a walking trail or on a trail just after a heavy rain etc. and they start to get a negative image of us as a group. I don't know the answer to this problem, but it happens.

(I'm not saying anyone was generalizing here - i'm just saying any negative image that anyone has usually can be backed up by example... nobody is immune)

Now - lets get back to the original topic of this thread... if anyone wants to continue debating BMX stuff, start your own thread.... :fool:

[emarkwardt]

Originally posted by gopherhockey
Just before the trail was opened last night I tacked up some signs that say just that. They are temporary until we can replace them with good permanent carsonite signs like the rest of the park - but they do the job now I think.


Cool... I guess that's what I get for being out there too early. Thanks for your efforts on this, John.

[debermart]

OK, ran the XX loop for the first time this morning. Really enjoy most of the trail (although I agree that some of the "rock garden" sections could be a little more difficult). Also enjoy the drop off about halfway through.

To err a little on the "technique" side of things. We hit the loop twice and neither time was I able to get really good air and distance off the tabletop jump! I will freely admit that this is mostly technique (last time I tried jumping a double ramp jump I ended up with a tacoed front wheel - the wheel destroyer strikes again!) Any suggestions here? Is this a matter of needing more speed or better technique on the takeoff?

Cheers

Steve

[gopherhockey]

Originally posted by Trevize1138

"Oh crap, it's old man Lindell! He's yelling at us to not ride the trail backwards again! Let's book!"

Geesh.. early 30s and I'm "old man" already.. yikes! ;)

[socrates]

Originally posted by Trevize1138
"Oh crap, it's old man Lindell! He's yelling at us to not ride the trail backwards again! Let's book!"

;)

Lucky for them it wasn't old man Lundell...cause I believe he's pack'n

[gopherhockey]

The tabletop definitely needs some help. I'm hoping Shad can come out and show us how its done... until then, the best line is to get a run at it from the left side near the tree, then just as you get to the jump head off toward the opposite corner. It seems to slope more on that side and get you more lift. I landed half way on the downside of the jump once from that side. (I'm sure there are others that could do even better)

Rock gardens.. definitely. We have a TON of rocks just waiting for a few good volunteers and some nifty rock bars. We could extend many of the existing ones by a long way, and make them much more difficult. Right now they allow too straight a line through them I think. Once we see the path that starts to form, we'll stick some ugly tombstone rocks in the way.

Hopefully people will know not to assume the trail will be the same from one week to the next. In an advanced loop, one should always expect the unexpected. If a section becomes too easy, chances are something is going to show up to change that ;)

[socrates]

Originally posted by s1ngletracker
Are you talking about those kind of rollers, like the ones they used to have on the bmx race course at buck?



Having just moved to the state 6 months ago I haven't been out to Buck Hill yet....but I'd characterize them as gentle rolling hills in fairly quick succession (might even be giving a gradual increase in overall grade) where one can build considerable speed

[manual63]

Go to riding tip section for jumping how to info.

Rollers would be like whoops, but not as tall as like what was at the Buck Hill BMX track. Just some nice rollers to pump through. If they get put in, trust me, you will like them.

As for normal Mountain Bike obstacles. Why does there have to be a standard? We should put in whatever is fun and if we come up with new things, we should do it. It's called progression........

I agree with Chris on the kid thing. Just because their parents bought them a BMX bike, does not make them BMXers. So call them punk kids and remove the letters BMX.

[gopherhockey]

Buck Hill removed the BMX track, I believe... at least I haven't seen it the times I have been there on mtb patrol.

[gopherhockey]

I like whoops actually... although a mountain bike would probably ride them differently than a moto-xer would, so rollers is probably a good alternative. I'll talk to the "guys" and see. I know there was plans for more jumps back in there as well.

Here is another thought. The area just after the 2nd bridge and that thin log ride is just a slow climbing turn around and up the side of a hill. There really is nothing there currently, but if you look to the sides you see some nice solid oak logs lying around.

I thought it might be cool to make a stairway type thing there. Kind of like the current log ride, but more sustained all the way up around the hill. You put a log, then level the ground out on the upside... put a few bike lengths, then another log and another step up. You have to work your way around the corner by climbing up the logs. Not extremely technical, but would be easy to do and probably fun for even those that don't like the usual log rides.

I would have liked to take that log ride/drop area and extend it out like 50 yards with tons of ups and downs in it. ;)

[gopherhockey]

Oh yea, and there are actually 2 areas still flagged in the XX loop that will add some distance and fun. One actually climbs you up to a flat area on top of a hill with a great view of the area below... the thought being to add some more fun "playground" types of things up there.

These newly flagged areas were in the plans all along, but for one reason or another never got put in since we wanted to open the loop up sooner and other things came up.

Can't promise when these will be built, but just wanted to let everyone know that besides more obstacles, there is also more trail to be added back in there too!

:banana:

[manual63]

There is an area where it is kind of a fast downhill. It's not too far from the start, but that would be a good place for like 4-6 rolls. Right near the top of the hill. They don't have to be super big, just big enough to pump through. Make them a little longer so it would match the wheelbase of a Mountain Bike and only make them like 1 1/2 feet high or so. You could learn to pump or manual through them to pick up more speed on the down hill.....fun....fun....fun.

I cleared the table top. It was a little damp in there today, so it was a pain getting the speed to clear it. I think it just needs a little more height and a better lip. I will try to make it next Tuesday to help out.

My problem is that I get so fricken tired when going through the xx loop that I find myself messing up due to lack of energy. I need to get in better shape I guess. Like the Maa Daa Hey wasn't enough to whip me into shape? Jeeeeeezzzzz!

[isoemo]

An idea came to me during the XX loop today.... Perhaps it would be possible to make the trail split more often. It could split for a good distance with the trails being nearly the same length and same skill level, or totally diffent. (short and hard/long and easy) The idea being that two riders of equal skill would almost meet up again where they come together. This would be a great addition for possible future races, just to get around the new guys, as well as just to change it up. I don't know if this is something you could just add to the trail system rather easily or not. Maybe it's something for the far future rather than the near.
Just trying to use my head!

by the way.... great job with the XX loop. I love it!

jlg

[manual63]

Originally posted by isoemo
An idea came to me during the XX loop today.... Perhaps it would be possible to make the trail split more often.

It would be cool, but I will bet that this would go into the land grab category. I am sure there is a limit to how much trail we can make.

[gopherhockey]

Originally posted by manual63
It would be cool, but I will bet that this would go into the land grab category. I am sure there is a limit to how much trail we can make.

Very good point.

Also, Dakota definitely doesn't like when you can be on one trail and see another (which is the case a lot out there already) - we get away with it as long as bikers do'nt cross over.

Having said that, it is quite possible that the 2 added sections we put in might just simply off-shoot from the current trail and give a rider an option. Maybe one is more difficult and shorter, and the other is easier but longer. We'll see - if it can be done without making it look good and merge properly, who knows.

I think the difficult thing is when you merge two trails together. Usually you have to find a place where one of the two lines are going uphill (or at a choke point) and there are good sight lines.

Thanks for the suggestion though! Its not entirely out of the question. I'll discuss with Dale & crew.

Keep the ideas coming!

(Shad, I'll also mention the downhill thing... )

[gopherhockey]

I'm going to have to split this thread into 2 subjects... hang on.

[gopherhockey]

Dang.. I copied it and started deleting out the BMX stuff from the actual topic, then deleted my first post by accident and lost all the BMX stuff you guys were talking about... oops! My bad..

Go ahead and start a new thread if you like on that topic. Sorry - I didn't mean to lose those posts. APparently if you delete the first post in a thread, you delete the entire thread! DOH!

:mad:

Ok, now back to XX suggestions...

[EmL34]

Shad, Whoops would be a great addition, near the beginning of the XX, sort of like the bumps before the drop off in the first singletrack. Great way to build speed at the beginning.

I also think the berm could start a little sooner to make for a faster turn... and how about alligators under the higher bridge to make it more interesting?

[Tim Wegner]

I am glad everyone seems to be enjoying the XX trail. One thing everyone has to remember: We are dealing with a government agency and they have the final say so on what features we put in to this trail system.

Any changes from what Dakota County Parks personnel saw a couple of days before the opening of XX must have a design presented and approved before we can make changes ie. whoops etc. Changes to the table top would be OK and adding additional rocks to the rock gardens or to the trail would also be OK.

Lets not forget, XX is a great LEGAL trail. XX is the only LEGAL trail in the entire metro system that has the features like the ones we were allowed to place on the XX trail.

I would prefer that discussion about changing the trail be held with the trail crew and trail steward only and not in an open forum like this site. The last thing we need is to have someone going in and thinking that they can build anything they want on the XX trail.

So if you want to keep the Lebanon system open make sure any changes that are made are approved by the Lebanon Hills MORC trail steward, Dale Gundberg!

MORC has worked with great diligence over the past 5 years establishing a relationship and a high level of trust with the Dakota County Parks offices. Making wholesale changes without authorization would destroy that relationship for many years to come.

[Jake]

Point well taken, Tim. We've been fortunate to have had a very high percentage of responsible riders on the Lebanon trails. We've seen very little modification/alteration of existing features.

Acknowledging the fact that someone might read these posts and try to build something new in our system, it is a pretty good hike back there, especially carrying any tools. I'm hopeful that anyone interested enough in the trail to read these posts would also have the respect to not modify the trail unless they're working with the trail crew.

As a member of the trail crew, I recognize many of the posts on this thread to be from people who have put in time with our crew. This certainly gives credibilty to the suggestions and ideas.

There are a number of riders (Shad, for instance) who have a lot of experience and knowledge about building/riding some fun stuff. We need this input. While some things might be appropriate for Lebanon, other things might work well for some of the other trails which are on the docket for new construction. Remember, new trails have been requested in numerous metro parks. Could one of these focus more on "trials" type of riding (oops...I probably shouldn't have said that).

I would like to discuss how we might encourage the sharing of these ideas for new features or improving exisiting ones in an appropriate format or place. We'll discuss this issue with the crew tomorrow night and post suggestions/conclusions.

Feel free to give us our input at 6 on Tuesday at the Lebanon parking lot. Remember your water, eye protection and gloves.....we'll bring the mosquito spray.

Jan

[Trevize1138]

I finally got to ride this loop with Old Man Lundell Friday and I have only one suggestion:

It's scary. Make it less-scary.

(Or, maybe I need to do more than one loop around it?)

[manual63]

I think John has done a good job making it clear that no changes are done unless approved. I like to throw in suggestions, from an extreme (uuuugggghhh I hate that word) rider and BMX point of view, but I know I can't just go in there with a shovel and make surprises like we used to do when making BMX trails.

That being said, I look at this as an XX Loop. There is a regular loop, whatever it's called, an X Loop which is more difficult, and an XX Loop which should have some real challenging stuff. Challenging does not need to mean dangerous and I think a lot of riders think that way. It is an XX Loop and it should be difficult enough that not just any rider can ride it.

I plan to come out tomorrow (Tuesday) and help, hopefully I can make it. So far the XX Loop is really good and a lot of fun. If rollers get approved, they will be a lot of fun and safe. They wont be hard for anyone, but it is just a fun feeling to pump through them and it can sharpen your skills. I don't plan to try to make this a BMX place like some others fear, and besides, my input to the XX Loop has been very slight and I don't have any pull, so don't fear my ideas, they have to go through many hands before they get to the trail.

[GearDaddy]

Overall this new "XX" loop is great! Thanks! Although it's really not that much more difficult than the existing X loop, that's OK. I actually have more fun on a trail that is completely rideable and keeps your heart rate up. When a trail has unrideable sections or slows you down to the extent that your not even breathing hard anymore, then it's less fun for me.

I only have a few comments/suggestions:

- The big drop-off is not that obvious. I didn't have any trouble with it, but it might take someone a bit by surprise. Maybe it should be more clearly marked?

- The rock gardens are great. I think these were the some of the best features of the loop. The bridges and the steep rock-ramp were cool too.

- More granny gear? I am able to ride Lebanon completely in the middle ring now - kind of unusual for a "technical" trail.

- The only thing I didn't ride was that 12 ft. long log ride. Does anybody actually ride on this thing?

[manual63]

Is that what that is for? I thought it was just sittin' there to be used for some future trail thingy.

I will ride it, if that's what it's for.

[KleinCrazy]

Yes,

The log if for riding. I would say that at this time it is probably the most "technical" feature on the trail. It took me 3 tries to get all the way to the end of it and that was a close one.

There is no real threat of injury with it but it does test your balance and bike handling ability.

As far as granny gear goes, who needs them? I ride the XX with a single and do just fine. For real Granny workout you need much more elevation then we have available in Lebanon.

[SPR]

Just finished riding the new XX loop. Quite fun and some real challenging sections. The trail seems to be gettting packed down quite nicely. I couldn't figure out the couple of wet patches.
I noticed in a couple rock areas where a rock had been dislodged.
I suppose this will happen until they become more embedded with ridding and rain. It was a bit sketchy in the rock area that steps down. There is not a real good line over the rocks and it appears that people are cutting on the upslope of the trail to get through. I also noticed some of the other rock areas have rocks placed just in such a way to grab a wheel and send someone flying. Unfortunately my schedule conflicts with trail work tuesdays these next few weeks otherwise I would come and point these areas out.
My final 2c I hope you dont change the trail from week to week.

Hopefully people will know not to assume the trail will be the same from one week to the next. In an advanced loop, one should always expect the unexpected.

I can see maintenance issues on the existing sections. My reason is that many people may not be getting to the trail as often as others. Also let the trail take shape and see what lines people are taking and then address changes. Maybe make alterations once a month at minimum.
Alright I've spoken now go out and ride :banana

[gopherhockey]

Originally posted by Jake

I would like to discuss how we might encourage the sharing of these ideas for new features or improving exisiting ones in an appropriate format or place. We'll discuss this issue with the crew tomorrow night and post suggestions/conclusions.


I agree. I don't see any real harm in discussing possibilities here online, but when it comes down to actually doing the work we will be talking about it as a crew and approving as necessary.

I don't get the feeling anyone here doesn't feel that way, and I can't see how anyone reading this series of posts would ever think to go in there by themselves. It is good to remind people of that fact though, especially coming from someone other than me who is always reminding people and playing the bad cop ;)

I believe everyone knows now that there is a system of trail stewards set up to help guide our trail efforts. If they don't, then this is a good place for everyone to learn.

I actually think by keeping quiet and not discussing we would encourage more people to poach and change things than if we were to discuss it as a group. People now know that the loop is open, that there are potentials for more things to be added, and they have a place to throw suggestions rather than going out and just doing it to see if it works.

All that aside, it is good to read what Tim posted and know that there are rules that need to be respected. Even I cannot just go out and do something new without running it past Dale Gundberg, who will run it past Dakota. Thats how we will keep the new XX loop open and not find that the county went in one day and tore down all the work we did.

Feels good to ride a trail you know you don't have to keep secret, doesn't it! :banana:

[Tim Wegner]

The wet spots in the trail are from roots that we cut during construction. We had the same thing on the bypass trails last year. They will "bleed" like that for about 2or 3 months and then the cut will heal over and the wet spots will go away. If the spots are a problem we cand dig down and remove the roots deeper in the trail or we can wait until nature solves the problem and we spend our time riding and enjoying the results of all our work.

[soupboy]

...ridden both dually and SS and can't say which is more fun. I just roll over everything on the dually - fun in and of itself, but the SS makes the little things more challenging - almost tipped over (high side - would have been ugly) after clipping a pedal and losing my mo' in the last tough little rock garden climb. Fun stuff.

Granny, who needs a stinking granny? Really, my recent SSing has prompted me to drop my granny for a mid-ring only on my dually. 1x8 baby. Liberating in a sense. Hmmmmm, Rohloff.....

Agree wholeheartedly with Senor Ford - riding SS makes you more gooder - more gooder climber, more gooder in the corners (keep that mo'!) and, well, just a more gooder person. I'm outta shape but can ride/clear everything at LH on my SS or mid-ring FS...well, all except that new log ride which I was too chicken to try yesterday.

Will someone turn on the A/C out there...XX nightride anyone?

Sean

[unstuckpilgrim]

Hmmm.. My mom cleaned the whole loop on her first run while towing my two twin boys in a bike trailer. I think it might need more grassy flowery areas.:D

Really though, just rode it for the first time tonight and its great. Quite a challenge when your already beat. It is already looking like an easy line is getting cut through the long rock garden in the middle of the loop, but it does make it a challenge just to avoid getting your rear der ripped off. The large drop towards the end is nice, and a little bit of a lip on the top would make it a swinging good time.

Unfortunately, I'm somehow convieniently out of town for work on tuesday nights, but I'm going to try to get out there tommorow to help out with some finishing touches. Thanks for all the hard work!

[manual63]

I plan to come out today and help, I hope it doesn't rain. Since I was only there once, what are the times people show up and where do you meet? Last time I walked the trail till I found someone, this time I am riding my bike till I find someone.

Oh, and I can look for a Soccer Mom Van with no licence plate to see if John is there.....:)

[manual63]

Sometimes I feel a little silly when I do this. Right after my last post, I saw the post about trail work time.......jeeeezzzzz, I can be an idiot sometimes..........

[manual63]

The table top in the XX Loop now has a decent lip. You can roll over it, but don't pedal over it or your pedal will dig into the lip and wear it down. Hope you like it and we will keep an eye on it and make improvements if needed.

[gopherhockey]

Originally posted by manual63
The table top in the XX Loop now has a decent lip. You can roll over it, but don't pedal over it or your pedal will dig into the lip and wear it down. Hope you like it and we will keep an eye on it and make improvements if needed.

Many thanks to Shad for helping us give some shape to the tabletop... then for showing us some cool tricks as he launched over it! Sweeeeeet....

:shocked:

[Trevize1138]

Yeah, that tabletop looks a tad more intimidating now! :shocked:

Speaking of intimidation, I rode Jan's Rock for the first time last night. My heart skipped a beat! I didn't expect to see that little tire-sized dip at the bottom! Luckily I lifted my front tire over it and all was well, but for a split second I thought I'd be going over the bars for sure. Yipes!

This loop's a lot more fun now, though. My first loop ever was Friday and it freaked me out at several points. My second loop after that I did 100X better.

I can see how people say it's not that much harder than the X loop, but it *is* tougher, don't forget that! In addition to Jan's Rock, there's that damn log drop that I *still* have yet to do! I'm also far from getting up the nerve to clear that tabletop. I land both wheels on the flat!

Guess I wouldn't worry about this loop not being "challenging enough." I seem to remember James talking about 5 levels of trails at one of the building sessions. Correct me if my memory is wrong, but the intermediate loop is equivalent to level 1, the X loop is level 2 and the XX loop is level 3.

So, if you feel there's some challenge you're missing out on, that's because there are two whole levels beyond yet! :shocked:

[manual63]

I want to bring up the roller thing again. I think it would be fun to have them right after the berm. Heck, we have a berm and a table top, why not some sweet rollers right after the berm. We could call this the BMX section.....J/K.

There is a nice gradual downhill with nothing in it right after the berm and about 4 mild rollers to pump through would be cool.

Think about it, pass it by the higher ups and let me know. They would be easy to build and most people like the idea.

[Barry]

Just rode XX for the first time this afternoon. What fun! Some of those rocky sections had me thinking I was back in Park City (except that there is O2 here at sea level). Nice mix of balancy rock sections, log piles (dug the chainring in a couple of times.. oops) and one good drop that I will remember to carry a little more speed over next time.:etard:

[JayT]

...moving the whole thing north & a little west... we seem to be lacking on this end of town.

JayT (Jealous)

[grizzly adam]

I finally got to get out and ride the XX! what fun!
I didn't get to hit everything full on just yet. I was going kinda slow, cuz I didn't know what was there, but it was a blast. After the first lap I aired up my tires and went to raise my seat and my binder bolt busted and I was unable to continue, so I had to call it a day. :(

I hope to get out there again soon and really hit the tabletop. Thanks for lip Shad. It looks awesome! I was able to ride the log about half way and then went left.

The rock gardens are cool, although I think they should be more rough. It's almost like there is too much dirt in there. But maybe it's to hold them in there. Jan's rock is cool -

The part where there are random rocks in the trail - beautiful!! I think I had the most fun there.

The trail really looks different compared to when I was helping build it. Okay, I was only there one night, but we moved some big-ass rocks!

The one rock garden that we worked on looks WAY different (the one just before Jan's Rock). I know we were there at its inception, but it seems like there is way too much dirt in there now. But I suppose it has to be there to keep things in place.

The only thing that I can think of at this point is some signage. Can we get a sign that says "Jan's Rock" or "Adam's Rock Garden" or "Grizzly Adam was here" or something like that?
That would be cool - especially the Grizzly Adam one..... ;)

Nice work with this trail, this is a lot of fun!

[Trevize1138]

Jan's rock still scares me :(

Actually, I think I know what I need to do to conquer it. I've only ridden it once, and I did it just fine, but it freaked me out! I'm gonna try it more but try creeping down it at first, then pop that front tire over the dip at the bottom and shoot out.

I also still refuse to do the log drop! Arg ... psyches me out every time and I take the rolling way down to the right.

Aside from that, I'm havin' a blast on it! The rock climb and Tim's Ribs don't bother me, for some reason. The first two times up it I had to clip out or at least dab, but since then it's really not that tough.

[Tiki]

This trail is so boss. I love the log drop. I wish the runway for it was longer to build up some speed. Justin fell off a bridge rear wheel first. That was funny. A teeter over that log with the 2 ramps would be pretty cool. I don't know what the plan is fot the proposed teeter is, but that would be a good spot. XTR shifting cables are awesome. I suggest them to everyone.:crazy2:

[gopherhockey]

Glad you like the trail! We're definitely still hoping to get some teeters out there - just waiting on Dakota's approval at this time. That will certainly add a new element to the trail.

There are a few small sections that still could use something in them - but overall it is shaping up nicely with the tough stuff spaced out with some recovery areas between.

[ice ice baby]

I love the new XX, and I'm excited about the new teeters! I think the trail needs more variety than log crossing after log crossing, although with the teeters, berms, and the "stairs" John put in the trail is well on its way to becoming even better. :banana:

[manitouman84]

mmm teeters :banana:

[gopherhockey]

I noticed some riders taking a left down the road that leads to the exit of the old expert loop today. (about half way down the initial gravel road on the way to the singletrack) Someone asked where they were going and they said something to the affect of a short cut to the expert loop.

Just a reminder - there are NO shortcuts to the expert or XX loops. If you want to ride them, you have to ride the entire trail. If you take that road, you CANNOT get to the XX or X loop.

If we find people are cutting, riding backwards, or riding on hiking trails to get to these areas we may have to start closing down sections of trail.

Dakota County was concerned about how close the new XX loop was to existing trails. We told them that "no mountain biker would ever cut a trail to get in here" but it seems we were quite wrong. If Dakota finds this out, we'll lose huge sections of trail.

Please - DO NOT cut the trails. Ride the entire loop like everyone else. If you see people cutting - even if they are walking their bikes - yell at them! Even walking them down a hiking trail to cut into a trail is not allowed. Dakota has approved the XX loop because it requires skill to get to the entrance. This has all been set up this way for a reason.

We need to watch out for our trails and each other. The more eyes on the trail the better!

This is a very important issue. As much as we all love the XX loop and want to ride it over and over again - we still need to stick to the trails and get to the entrance the proper way. All it takes are one or two riders who think they are better than everyone else to ruin it all for the rest of us.

Thanks!!

[Don Youngdahl]

Originally posted by gopherhockey
I
If you see people cutting - even if they are walking their bikes - yell at them! .....

We need to watch out for our trails and each other. The more eyes on the trail the better!



In these two comments, John has touched on an important aspect of responsible riding and the effort to keep our trails - rider peer pressure. As a veteran of the dirt bike trail scene, which has many similarities to the mountain bike scene, I'm convinced that peer pressure is a greatly overlooked tool that all responsible riders should be using more.

When you see someone violating the rules, it's a bit of a drag to talk to them or confront them, unless you're a naturally contentious person. It may introduce a sour note to an otherwise great day. But if you don't speak up to inform the rule-breakers of their actions, it brings to mind the quote attributed to the British statesman Edmund Burke: “The only thing necessary
for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing.”

If you're never able or willing to come out and work on trails, you can still do your bit by exerting some peer pressure on your fellow riders when appropriate.

Don Youngdahl:banana:

[manitouman84]

Is that the new teeter being built to the right of the trail after the second bridge in the xx loop? If it is, is the trail leading to it going to be before or after that bridge, itd be pretty cool if it was after the second bridge. Nice work on the new steps too. :crazy2:

[manitouman84]

you guys should put some more table tops in too because the one that is in right now is bomb. So is that log drop :crazy2:

[Lil' Punk]

i think that it could use a couple more log rides in it. . .

[gopherhockey]

Originally posted by manitouman84
Is that the new teeter being built to the right of the trail after the second bridge in the xx loop? If it is, is the trail leading to it going to be before or after that bridge, itd be pretty cool if it was after the second bridge. Nice work on the new steps too. :crazy2:

Thats just a bridge we're storing that will eventually go on the trail leading out of the park. It does look like a teeter sitting down there like that though.

I believe one teeter will go after the first bridge and before the second, and another will go after the tabletop. (you can see flags showing where the IMBA crew picked out teeter spots for us)

[Jake]

Chris: Nothing to worry about on Jan's rock...just get your butt back. You can go as slow as you want...to a point...just don't skid the back and let it get ahead of the front.

I know I'm a pansy *ss, but I did finally ride the double log drop today...for the first time. Had to roadtest that new Fox 100X... I decided the double down really isn't much different than dropping the taller pile of logs on the Expert Loop (the one where you ride up the side hill, then turn left, get your butt back and let the front wheel head downhill. John told me that once I tried double down that I'd wonder why I didn't ride it sooner....right again, John.

I'd like to revisit Shad's post at the beginning of this thread. Might be a good project for this Tuesday....

Shad, if we do this, could you show up to give some pointers?

[Trevize1138]

I haven't been out to Leb for a good month or more! I feel like the ultimate pansy *ss. :)

Yeah, next time I go I'm going to have to take your advice on creeping down Jan's rock and get used to the feel. Makes sense that the log drop wouldn't be anything more than the double down log rolls, too.

It's all psychological, I know that. And, as much as I talk about how I want mountain biking to be *distinct* from road biking, there are some parts of mountain biking I just don't do well :(. My strength has always been hill climbing and speed on flats. I didn't get better at cornering and faster descents until just a couple years ago. All these XX obstacles are the next big challenge to master ;).

[manitouman84]

Chris,
Its all about confidence my man, know you can do it, and you will. If you fall, just get back up again and do it again.

[Hathor]

Originally posted by Jake
but I did finally ride the double log drop today...for the first time.

Jan,

Did John tell you I finally rode it, too, so you felt pressured? :p
Actually, my technique isn't the greatest; I have a hard time getting my front tire lifted, but if I get enough speed, it doesn't seem to matter!

[SickBoy]

Is it just me or do the berms on the XX loop seem to gather mud after a rain?

Is there some way to remedy this? Because the berms are fun and all but if they generate big mudholes I say let's get rid of them.

Would it be permissible to do something like put a section of 2" PVC pipe through the bottom of the berm so that water can drain out instead of collect?

[gopherhockey]

Originally posted by SickBoy
Is it just me or do the berms on the XX loop seem to gather mud after a rain?

Is there some way to remedy this? Because the berms are fun and all but if they generate big mudholes I say let's get rid of them.

Would it be permissible to do something like put a section of 2" PVC pipe through the bottom of the berm so that water can drain out instead of collect?

Good question. The berms are definitely a work in progress. IMBA had their suggestions, and we worked on them and refined them. We have already re-done them a few times. The one after Jan's rock isn't too bad since it is kind of on an uphill and sloped well... but the one after the McDonald's tree is definitely a water hazard still. I would also say that after our last attempt it is probably 50% better than it used to be.

We did put rock under it to try drain some of the water, but it doesn't seem to be working completely. Dakota County didn't want us to drag gravel into the berm, which was one of the original plans. There is much to learn, but we'll not be taking them out... (over a dozen or so people's dead bodies anyway - a lot of work went into those things)

Note that I have yet to ride where any of the berms were too wet in the last few weeks. The trick here is to give the trail just 12-24 more hours to dry out than everyone else does - let the early birds pack it in and remove the mud with their bikes... ;)

You are right though - even when the rest of the trail is in great shape the berm does show some moisture. Even tonight it had some wet spots on it - but it still rode much better than it did without.

Besides draining, we still have some shaping to do I think.

We actually have a few more places that could use berms, but we'll try perfect these first before doing more.

BTW: The PVC suggestion might be something to look into. maybe some of that black pipe you can buy that has cuts in it to let water in, then drain it off behind the berm. Would probably need yearly maintenance, but it would be better than a muddy berm...

[Dr. Guitar]

How about some log obsticles, that are several bike lengths long. Not just a pyramid, something rideable, only it takes more than an "up and over" motion to do.

Or, log obsticles on a climb. Not huge like the one at the opening of the Advanced Expert loop.

I know nothing of what you do to make trail, and I have thought about helping. My question is, do you put any sort of fencing, gravel, or mesh under things like berms to aleviate erotion.

Personaly, I don't like when a trail becomes BMX'y. I like the tabletop, but wouldn't want another one. Log bridges are ok, but seem a little freeride-ish.

[gopherhockey]

Originally posted by Dr. Guitar

Personaly, I don't like when a trail becomes BMX'y. I like the tabletop, but wouldn't want another one. Log bridges are ok, but seem a little freeride-ish.

I have thought about this as well. As much fun as it has been constructing the XX loop this year, there are times that I feel this same exact way. We have been kind of pushing "XX" this year.. next year this will be different, with the focus being back on Intermediate level trails and fixing trouble areas.

I think we definitely needed a trail like the XX loop... but, we need to also remember that our focus isn't on all the obsticles, jumps etc. (although they are sure fun to talk and think about)

As the XX loop construction kind of comes to a close for this year, I see us taking a look at what we have over the next month or so and maybe tweaking things but not doing anything major. We talk this winter about some possibilities (we have to talk about SOMETHING this winter!) and then put in maybe a couple more cool things through 04' as we also work on other trails. It is sometimes fun to do something unique.

We have also learned a lot over the last year(s). I think originally it was all about log piles. Since then we have learned you can do more unique things with logs and rocks that aren't always the same... log pile... log pile... log pile... yup, yet another log pile...

Maybe we even evaluate some of the existing piles in the future as something we can change slightly. I like the idea of a longer/larger pile that isn't a pyramid. We have a small pile like that in the X loop (that you can basically jump over right now).

To answer your berm question - there have definitely been different things used as a drain tile under berms. I think even IMBA is still experimenting with what works and what doesn't. The difficulty there is that a berm is hard to sustain like other trails... any kind of drain tile would have to be dug out and fixed after a year or two.... but, we have to do something in a few years at Lebanon once we've built all the trails we possibly can.

;)


I felt like typing tonight...

[jcm44]

I was happy to learn that the XX loop was not just a bunch of different logs. I rode the X loop my first time out, and I liked the log piles at first, by the end I just thought they were annoying. But I had been stung in the lip by a huge bee, so I was in a bad mood to begin with. I think technical riding should be about variety and trying to adapt to the differences in the trail quickly. I have not had a chance to ride all through Leb, but I enjoyed what I rode. I didn't make the trails, so I won't complain about them, but if I were to help I might suggest some quick steep descents that go right back into a steep climb, some tight switchbacks on a downhill, and maybe change the direction of the trail each year so it feels like a whole new trail.

Maybe all of this is there, I dunno, I am from Indiana and what the heck do Hoosiers know about mountain biking anyway?

[gopherhockey]

I too get tired of the log piles.. in fact now when I'm doing loops back on the XX I'm starting to really notice how annoying it can be to have to do log pile after log pile on those days when you really would rather just ride... I then usually get out of there and do intermediate loops instead.

Some of your suggestions are there, some we might have a hard time with due to trail construction rules - but I agree all would be fun. Even the reversed direction idea, although it is hard enough to get people to go the right way as it is ;)

A while back I begged for even just one day at Lebanon that was to ride it all backwards "officially" but that never flew...

[jcm44]

I know a few places in IN without signs, so we can ride it anyway you want. Its dangerous so I stuck to the general route. But I know trails look a heck of a lot different going the other way. But I understand what you're saying about getting people to go the right way. The only way I know to correct it is to get people started the right way. Put up a big sign that says "Enter Here" and others that say "Exit Only". I tend to get upset with people when they get out there on their huffy going the wrong way and they don't care. If I feel in the mood I will try to correct them, usually I just ride by them and say "you're going the wrong way", but mostly I just want them to stay out of the way, esp with their "SUV" of bikes.

My only other suggestion is to move that huge rock by the first man made bridge, but I think that may take Atlas to move.

[socrates]

Originally posted by gopherhockey
A while back I begged for even just one day at Lebanon that was to ride it all backwards "officially" but that never flew...

I know the MDNR (as in Michigan DNR) does this at atleast 1 recreation area (Island Lake)...might be worth someone contacting the the Southeast Chapter of MMBA and see if there's any info they can provide from the MDNR to show the advantages of doing it (I'd do it be really tied up this week...hense the low posts from me) the chapter can be contacted at southeast@mmba.org

[Don Youngdahl]

Originally posted by gopherhockey
I too get tired of the log piles..

I'm not a great fan of log piles, both due to my age and basic skill level. At age 66, I've found that decreased reaction time and endurance is accompanied by a heightened awareness of the possible serious consequences of a fall. But I'm also aware of the desire for more challenges, and I'm not too proud to walk a few steps.

Perhaps you could build bypasses around some of the log piles. If you monitored the amount of wear the bypasses were getting, that would provide some evidence of the riders' preferences. If the grass remains for a full season on a bypass, there's your answer. Conversely, if grass starts growing at the base of the log piles, there's an opposite answer.

Don Youngdahl

[gopherhockey]

I think we can safely bypass anything in the XX loop for sure, but the X loop is a different story I think. Dakota likes the fact that you are forced to ride the X loop to get to the XX loop, so that those making it there are at a certain skill level.

Of course one can just walk their bike over things too, so that is good in theory but not always reality.

I'll talk with the guys about a few more bypasses and/or possibly even a few less log piles (or maybe more unique ones instead).

[jcm44]

I actually think clearing one 8-12" log is more difficult than a stack of logs. This is just because at one point you will be straddling the log and then you will have to kick your back tire up to roll over the log. But I agree with Dakota on the thinking that maybe the X will fend off rookies from trying the XX too soon. I don't mind people trying new things and trying to challenge themselves so long as you don't slow anyone down. Its just like golf, let the faster people ride through.

[scarface]

equation

XX = perfection

Don't worry about the logs, huffy chainrings wear them down;)

-brett

[ice ice baby]

Originally posted by Dr. Guitar

Personaly, I don't like when a trail becomes BMX'y. I like the tabletop, but wouldn't want another one. Log bridges are ok, but seem a little freeride-ish. [/B]
Evrybody out at Lebanon seems to LOVE the tabletop. You say you really like the tabletop, but wouldn't want another one;mmmm. In my opinion, the section after the berm with the tabletop, log ride and log drop is the most fun and exciting part of the whole trail and I think most people would agree with me!:banana:

I was also wondering if youo guys were going to put a log on 1/2 of the log drop, so you can't just ride off it?

[manual63]

Don't want it to become BMXish or Freerideish? I don't get it, why do we call it an XX Loop? If you don't like the Xtreme (stupid word) then stay on the intermediate loop.

I don't think log rolls, log drops, tabletops, or teeters are cross country mountain bike objects, I think they are freeride or BMX objects.

[manual63]

Come to think about it, I don't understand some of your complaints about the XX Loop. If you don't like log piles or tabletops, why do you go on the XX Loop? I thought the reason why the XX Loop was a seperate trail was so you had a choice. I also thought this is why John made sure there are bypasses. No one is forcing you to ride there. Would you all be much happier if it was flat???? Jeeeeezzz!

[jcm44]

simmer down shad, i like the log piles, just not 12 of them. i mean i like clif bars too, just not 12. sometimes you just want to mix things up. i think the xx loop does a great job of mixing things up. i don't get into all the lingo, but i think mtn biking is about having something in your way and going over/under it. that's everything from trees, rocks, roots, teeters, and everything else. it all adds to the fun of the trail.

/edit: Am I ever going to get out of Granny Gear?

[manual63]

Originally posted by scarface
Don't worry about the logs, huffy chainrings wear them down;)

Now that's true humor.

I have a sticker that says, "If Huffy made a airplane, would you fly in it?"

[Trevize1138]

The "More XX loops vs. more intermediate singletrack" discussion has been touched on before.

As far as I know from what John says, the next big push now that the XX loop is done is more intermediate singletrack. Miles and miles of it! Woo hoo! And, not just at Lebanon, but at other parks in the metro.

I certainly understand the fear of having all bike trails turn into the XX loop, but I don't think there's any danger of that. There are enough riders and MORC volunteers out there who love intermediate singletrack, so you can bet they'll continue building lots more of it.

I think the XX Loop was sort of a departure from normal building, and I think doing more involved trails like this will only improve trail building for "easier" projects to build intermediate singletrack. After hauling Hugh Jass rocks to build up a berm for 15 ft of trail, following Dingo and Bob with some McClouds and blazing fast trails through the woods shouldn't be a problem. =)

[Kingbozo]

I have a sticker that says, "If Huffy made a airplane, would you fly in it?"

LOL That is great!!!

[manitouman84]

I Agree with Shad, I believe the point of the XX loops is for something different, and you have the choice, ride the intermediate loop if you dont like it! I do agree, some variety would be nice, some more rock gardens or teeters, but it wouldnt be a double xx loop if it werent for all that garbage in there.

Like whats the point of a "log drop" if you want to put logs under it. And believe me, if you just want to "ride off it", you can, ride the right side of it, theres a small ramp!

[manual63]

Originally posted by manitouman84
I Agree with Shad

Be careful, this can be kinda dangerous......

[jcm44]

Where the heck is the teeter at leb? I have seen when I am on either the x or the xx, but i can never find the trail that goes over it.

[ice ice baby]

Originally posted by jcm44
Where the heck is the teeter at leb? I have seen when I am on either the x or the xx, but i can never find the trail that goes over it. There is no teeter..........yet.:banana:

[jcm44]

i must be huffing too much bug spray before i ride...

[manitouman84]

Originally posted by manual63
Be careful, this can be kinda dangerous......

Yes, yes it can..

[socrates]

Originally posted by scarface
XX = perfection


Well I agree...I'm not sure why but I had more fun riding XX last night than I normally do....could be after a long week at work I really needed the ride....could be the trail wasn't that busy around 5:30pm (personally I think it's both)...but it was perfection (until I lost a link on the 2nd time through that is...grrrr)

[manual63]

I actually have not been to Leb in awhile. How is the table and lip we built holding up?

[socrates]

Originally posted by manual63
I actually have not been to Leb in awhile. How is the table and lip we built holding up?

Well it's hard to remember how things were at the opening but I'd say everything is holding up really well (I think I remember 1 rock in the rock garden being gone yesterday but you kinda expect stuff like that to happen once in a while)

[gopherhockey]

Yea, the trail really has been sticking together well in the XX since the initial opening trashing it took.

Originally a number of rocks suddenly went missing in many of our rock gardens - espeically the nice catwalk climb. Some probably were not dug in properly, some I think were removed by wimpy riders ;)

Since that time only a few things have changed - mostly due to natural wear and tear.

I have seen a few places where riders want to cut around on an "easy route" which I just don't understand... but those are easily corrected.

Even the log over has done well, although I find myself straightening it out more often than riding it my first lap. It still seems to twist around since it isn't anchored real well.

I'm very happy with how things have been though. A huge thank you goes to those that helped build it to last, but also to those of you out there riding the trail and keeping things were they are (not modifying etc.)

I still want to do something next to the log-over after the 2nd bridge though... it needs an alternate route, and it needs to be anchored in better (the log may even need to be replaced - the end was kind of rotten even when we built it) Something for our September list I guess...

[gopherhockey]

I replaced the rock that someone removed in one of the XX rock gardens. I'll have to go back out and dig it in better. Apparently someone wasn't skilled enough to ride around it, so they just removed it. I do know there needs to be some work in that area - it doesn't flow real well... but, you'd think guys would keep their paws off the rocks and post here if they have suggestions. :(

I also see riders aren't taking to our new re-route in the Intermediate loop real well. They are juping the rock pile and heading straight down the old trail we closed off only to meet up with the new one about half way down the hill. I drug more trees in the way, but we may have to do even more to let people get the hint. Yes, the trail might flow better going straight there - but we need to turn riders somewhere to cut some of the speed at the top or we'll end up with the same problem as before. Heck, you can still ride it fast enough if you have some skill, and the flow around the corner at the bottom is MUCH better.

(maybe I'll put some of the barbed wire we found out there under the logs.. that'll show em' hehe)

[jeffgude]

Somebody must have rearranged the rocks in the rock garden after the Tims ribs area. There does not seem to be a decent line over them anymore as I can't seem to clean the route straight through and end up taking the easy route to the left...

[EmL34]

I don't think it's intentional. The first time I rode this I almost went straight, maybe out of muscle memory.

Once I realized the trail had changed I thought to myself....does John Lundell ever sleep?

Oh, and I agree, the re-work is much better than it was. I don't think there is any speed trade off, and flow IS much better as you mentioned. Plus, there's another techincal obstacle.

[manual63]

I heard some rider talking with his buddy after taking the table today. He was telling his buddy that the lip was too steep. I took it 3 times and I disagree with him. It is perfect and I can get lots of air and clear it without a problem. He said it should be more rounded and like a BMX table. Well, that's the way it was and we changed it for the better.....I think. So what is your opinion on this issue?

<b>Note:</b> No changes can be made to the table or any other part of the trail without MORC approval.

[gopherhockey]

Originally posted by jeffgude
Somebody must have rearranged the rocks in the rock garden after the Tims ribs area. There does not seem to be a decent line over them anymore as I can't seem to clean the route straight through and end up taking the easy route to the left...

There never was a real good fast line through there... it is something I've been meaning to go in and work on one of these days. The rocks are big, but not dug in real well. I'd like to sink them in far enough to make them stick up, but that you can ride over if you are skilled enough. Right now the line is rather slow and winding. People have been moving rocks and/or logs in there to try get a straight line through and I keep putting them back.

I'd also like that rock garden to be longer. We have more rocks there just sitting around waiting to be moved and dug in.

My dream is to have 2 good lines through that area - neither of them straight, but both flowing fairly well. Maybe even forcing a person to ride over a rock or two on the way through.

[gopherhockey]

Originally posted by manual63
Well, that's the way it was and we changed it for the better.....I think. So what is your opinion on this issue?



I have had mixed opinions in the past - but every time I take the tabletop with some speed and actually make the effort it flows really nice - shoots me up in the air and lands me down well past the top.

I think it is just fine as it is. Sometimes I don't feel like jumping and take it slower and it still bumps me up in the air a bit... and I have followed some guys doing some pretty cool tricks over it.

It probably would be easier to clear the jump for those "jump challenged" to have it be less of a lip - but why make it easy?

I always hear people in the parking lot talking about various places in the trail. I overheard one group talking about how the rock garden in the old X loop being nothing but "junk" and totally un-ridable. (the one where you take a sharp right after clearning it). The funny thing is that most people I ride with clear it each and every time.... I told them to stop taking what looks like the easy inside line and go outside - they sounded interested in giving it another shot. Maybe they won't think it is "unrigable junk" next time... ;)

[manual63]

It seems like people complain about the trail if they can't clear something on it clean. Well, that's the point. Don't change the trail, work harder on your skills. I am not perfect, I crashed twice today. Oh well, I get up and do it again. I usually crash because I get too tired or am pushing myself too much. Today, I really pushed myself too much and it was obvious the bees didn't like it.

[SPR]

Originally posted by manual63
It seems like people complain about the trail if they can't clear something on it clean. Well, that's the point. Don't change the trail, work harder on your skills.

I agree. I don't get to Lebanon on a regular basis so I haven't ridden the XX loop cleanly yet. But that's what makes it fun when I do ride the XX as I try to sharpen my skills. I can't complain about the trail because I can't ride it clean. I look forward to the challenge of the next lap.

[Rockhoppa]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by manual63
[B]I heard some rider talking with his buddy after taking the table today. He was telling his buddy that the lip was too steep. I took it 3 times and I disagree with him. It is perfect and I can get lots of air and clear it without a problem. He said it should be more rounded and like a BMX table. Well, that's the way it was and we changed it for the better.....I think. So what is your opinion on this issue?

I think it's better with the lip also!!! I have no problem clearing also!!! It is perfect and nothing should be done to it!!!!!!!:crazy2:

[jeffgude]

Originally posted by gopherhockey

I always hear people in the parking lot talking about various places in the trail. I overheard one group talking about how the rock garden in the old X loop being nothing but "junk" and totally un-ridable. (the one where you take a sharp right after clearning it). The funny thing is that most people I ride with clear it each and every time.... I told them to stop taking what looks like the easy inside line and go outside - they sounded interested in giving it another shot. Maybe they won't think it is "unrigable junk" next time... ;)

I have everything in the XX loop mostly under control, it's that stupid rock garden in the X loop that has my number. Sometimes I ride through no problem, then there are nights like last night, over the bars, landed hard on a couple of those watermelon-sized rocks. Ouch. I guess I should try the outside line you're talking about. But, if it were too easy, it would be boring.

[socrates]

Originally posted by gopherhockey
I replaced the rock that someone removed in one of the XX rock gardens. I'll have to go back out and dig it in better. Apparently someone wasn't skilled enough to ride around it, so they just removed it. I do know there needs to be some work in that area - it doesn't flow real well... but, you'd think guys would keep their paws off the rocks and post here if they have suggestions. :(

I also see riders aren't taking to our new re-route in the Intermediate loop real well. They are juping the rock pile and heading straight down the old trail we closed off only to meet up with the new one about half way down the hill. I drug more trees in the way, but we may have to do even more to let people get the hint. Yes, the trail might flow better going straight there - but we need to turn riders somewhere to cut some of the speed at the top or we'll end up with the same problem as before. Heck, you can still ride it fast enough if you have some skill, and the flow around the corner at the bottom is MUCH better.

(maybe I'll put some of the barbed wire we found out there under the logs.. that'll show em' hehe)

LOL...some how I knew it was you that put the rock back...and by the time I came back to move the logs etc on the intermediate loop on my 2nd lap you had already done that too....maybe we can get you a place for a tent so you'd be able to spend more time fixing the trails instead of having to go home every night....

3 more Banana's for John (for fixing stuff again)

:banana: :banana: :banana:

[manual63]

Originally posted by jeffgude
I have everything in the XX loop mostly under control, it's that stupid rock garden in the X loop that has my number. Sometimes I ride through no problem, then there are nights like last night, over the bars, landed hard on a couple of those watermelon-sized rocks. Ouch. I guess I should try the outside line you're talking about. But, if it were too easy, it would be boring.

Yesturday was my first time crashing in a rock garden. Since I was on my P.2, I was not clipped in and I just jump off my bike and ran. The problem is running on a bunch of rocks to keep from me falling....LOL. I can do all of them clean now, but once you make a mistake, there is no room for recovery, that's what makes rock gardens interesting.

[socrates]

Originally posted by manual63
Yesturday was my first time crashing in a rock garden. Since I was on my P.2, I was not clipped in and I just jump off my bike and ran. The problem is running on a bunch of rocks to keep from me falling....LOL. I can do all of them clean now, but once you make a mistake, there is no room for recovery, that's what makes rock gardens interesting.

LOL...yeah I made a mistake on the first rock...luckily I was able to recover and thankfully no one was around......I'm sure it didn't look too pretty but your absolutely correct....rock gardens make it interesting and fun!

[manual63]

It's like you get off balance and then when you try to steer back to regain balance, there is another rock there ready to throw you off balance even more........cooool!

[Trevize1138]

I gotta say I like the improvements made to the XX loop since last I rode it (about a month ago).

Especially that climb with all the damn logs! First time I rode it I was in a higher gear (all the better to power up the hill with) and thought "Oh, hey, someone put a log here *HUCK!*"

Then I saw the next one "Hey, another log *HUCK!*" Then another log ... and another ... and another ... :sick:

2nd lap through I downshifted for that hill ;)

[soupboy]

Or how about XXX, wait, this is a family site. Anywho, kudos once again to MORC for a great trail. Still lobbying hard for a series of ledges on the DH section post the rock garden on the XX loop. So much easy momentum could be well channeled into some successive drops the size of the bigger drop pre-rock ride.

Also, shame on the naughty folks that are moving obstacles. I've heard folks complain about "...all those logs back there...". Sure, it can get repetitive, but you can mix it up but skipping certain sections. Personally, I find the rock gardens, drops and bridges more fun because log crossings present little technical challenge to avid riders unless they are on an upslope or create a big step-up (hint-hint);)

My only real gripe with the trail right now is the exit DH section with the re-route that goes right and then left. Real sketchy right now with crazy braking bumps. Had the front wheel nearly wash out on me a few times. Then again, I am a caveman and can not ride. Regardless, the erosion is bad. I'd vote for either some type of berm and/or an additional switchback in there to force folks to shed more speed or make it easier to carry speed and avoid the all to obvious skid-fest.

--Sean

[socrates]

Originally posted by soupboy187
I've heard folks complain about "...all those logs back there...".

Sunday at the beginning to the XX loop two guys were stopped and one asked the other what he thought of the trail...the response was "if this trail was a guy I'd have punched it by now"....I passed them and figured they'd just continue on the X loop and leave...nope they took the XX...if it's that bad then why did they take the XX loop? I think some people just like to complain

PS...I did here the guy continue to yell and scream all the way through the XX loop....

[manual63]

Speaking of yelling and screaming.....LOL. I usually hear woooohoooo and heeehaaaw coming from back there.

What's funny about this post is that I am not joking.........

[socrates]

Originally posted by manual63
Speaking of yelling and screaming.....LOL. I usually hear woooohoooo and heeehaaaw coming from back there.

What's funny about this post is that I am not joking.........

Neither am I...but unfortunately those aren't the words he was using....they were "OH (@*#&$(*@#&$(@*&#$(@#*&$!!!!! and )(*@#$)(*@#$)(*K!"

[Trevize1138]

Originally posted by socrates
Neither am I...but unfortunately those aren't the words he was using....they were "OH (@*#&$(*@#&$(@*&#$(@#*&$!!!!! and )(*@#$)(*@#$)(*K!"

English! Speak English! :P

Yeah, I have a friend or two like that. They're the ones you just kinda cringe at 'cause they'll say over a beer or two "Yeah, I love mountain biking. I totally rule at it!"

Then, you get them out to somewhere like Lebanon or Maah Daah Hey and it's a constant stream of whining ...

[gopherhockey]

Originally posted by soupboy187
Or how about XXX, wait, this is a family site. Anywho, kudos once again to MORC for a great trail. Still lobbying hard for a series of ledges on the DH section post the rock garden on the XX loop. So much easy momentum could be well channeled into some successive drops the size of the bigger drop pre-rock ride.



I also think that would be a good idea... a possible September/October project when we start trailwork back up again.

I think these could be put in without removing the fun of the downhill.

[gopherhockey]

Originally posted by soupboy187
My only real gripe with the trail right now is the exit DH section with the re-route that goes right and then left. Real sketchy right now with crazy braking bumps. Had the front wheel nearly wash out on me a few times. Then again, I am a caveman and can not ride. Regardless, the erosion is bad. I'd vote for either some type of berm and/or an additional switchback in there to force folks to shed more speed or make it easier to carry speed and avoid the all to obvious skid-fest.

--Sean

That place is bad by design. We're hoping Dakota will allow us to work around that area in the fall.

Look for this section to go away sometime late this year or early next via our next major trail project at Lebanon. (along with the sketchy downhill that is just after the bypass and before the X loop)

[gopherhockey]

Originally posted by socrates
Sunday at the beginning to the XX loop two guys were stopped and one asked the other what he thought of the trail...the response was "if this trail was a guy I'd have punched it by now"....

Probably more like "slapped it by now" judging by their inability to enjoy the trail for its technical challenges. ;)

People are idiots. I have just decided to accept this fact, and that mountain bikers are no exception.

Not all of you guys though! ;) Actually it is nice to read posts here from people who think like I do. It reassures me that there are still some valid humans in the gene pool.

[socrates]

Originally posted by gopherhockey
Probably more like "slapped it by now" judging by their inability to enjoy the trail for its technical challenges. ;)


Gosh I think I need another Diet Pepsi....I had to read that twice to get it...but the 2nd time it was ROFL!!!

[Trevize1138]

Originally posted by gopherhockey
I also think that would be a good idea... a possible September/October project when we start trailwork back up again.

I think these could be put in without removing the fun of the downhill.

I'd rather see the sketchy downhill parts of the trail rerouted before we do much more to the XX loop, actually. :)

Yeah, the re-route we worked on on the long, exit downhill is getting pretty bad. I don't know what's up with that. The narrowed downhill before the X loop is also getting kinda treatcherous. So, that's my vote for the priority of the projects after the August break: reroutes and more singletrack! I wanna ride Tim's Dream! :banana:

[KleinCrazy]

I wanna ride Tim's Dream!

This has just to many meaning to even think about. Even more so if you know some of the comments going around about Tim at the Midwest Summit this year.

[Tim Wegner]

Hey
What comments are you talking about? I have had my body planted behind the Bobcat so much this year I haven't had a chance to hear any gossip!

The re-routes at Lebanon should be done this year. Still waiting on the go ahead from Dakota County. They like our re-routes but I had to lay out an alternative for the skiers so the parks department can make sure the ski trails and bike trails do not conflict. I Know,I Know---I am the international MOUNTAIN BIKE representative not the ski representative but some times you just have to do things that you don't want to do in order to achieve your goal.(in this case making Lebanon 99% singletrack)
:banana:

[gopherhockey]

Three bananas for Tim and his flagging of the ski trail so that we can get more mtb trail!

:banana: :banana: :banana:

[Torpedo]

Finally rode the XX loop, nice work, fun time..I missed one turn to hit the steep little downhill and had to use the easy way around..


Of course I bit it on the rocks, stupid pedals.. but thats for a different forum.