Please keep on the existing trail...

[gopherhockey]

I hate being the one to lecture all the time.. for those of you that know me, you know I am not all that anal about things - but I do believe strongly in some things.

Staying on the trail is yet another one of these things.

I took a ride around Lebanon today and counted 7 places where riders were cutting the trail. This is rather unusual considering in the past year it really didn't happen often. I'm also pissed because I had to spend half my ride time fixing these locations rather than riding.

When Dakota County walks the trails, often they could care less about a dangerous log pile, but they comment on how close the trails are to each other at certain places. We always promise them that mountain bikers are the type that don't cut through trails - we like our singletrack and will go a LOOONNNGGG way around to ride more trail. Why skip, we say?

Well.. apparently there have been a few reasons guys are skipping.

Two major places in the warm up loop people have been riding under a tree vs. around on the regular trail. The only reason I can see for doing this is speed - although a skilled rider should be able to keep their speed and stay on the trail. (thus, this must be unskilled riders..) There are reasons the trails are where they are - sometimes we don't like to ride on the down-side of a tree as it can damage roots. Sometimes the trail needs to flow up and over places so we can shed water off properly. The reason should really not matter though - if a trail has been ridden in for that long, there is NO reason to start cutting corners.

People are taking their bikes off (what we call the bypass climb) and bringing them down near Jan's rock. This seems to be their way around the fences and trail closed sign. This is exactly what Dakota doesn't want - if they start to see these types of things out there, we will have a hard time approving new trails. There is no *right* way to poach a trail (other than to not do it) - but if you are going to resort to that kind of thing, at least stick to the trail and don't cut. Now we're going to have to drag stuff into that location to keep these losers from doing this... otherwise others will think it is a real trail and/or rain will start washing down that area and ruin the trail below.

The expert loop... this was a big one. Apparently there are a few people that don't have the skills to get over some of the log piles, so they have tried to make their own bypass. If you do not have the skills to ride the expert loop, don't! If you are a novice level rider and want to learn, thats cool - but if you don't make it over just walk your bike and stick to the trail. DO NOT make your own bypass. If we wanted a bypass there, we'd put one there. The more people ride around the logs the more we have to drag ugly looking logs that look unnatural to keep people from doing this. If you are a racer-type that doesn't want to ride the logs, then perhaps you should stick to the Intermediate bypass rather than riding the expert loop.

As always, most if not all of you reading this are not the people I'm trying to lecture... but.. now you know whats happening out there and you can help us with more sets of eyes on the trail. Feel free to talk to someone if you see them cutting a trail... be nice, send them our way if you want.

Thanks for reading this whole post if you got this far... your help in this matter is, as always, appreciated!!

:(

[gopherhockey]

It probably is just a losing battle really. Hikers will continue to walk wherever they want. Bikers will continue to show they are no better than hikers (or worse).

I don't know if people are truely stupid or just selfish.

At the same time I have to try not to act like I own the trail. None of us do.. or all of us do - guess it depends on how we look at it.

If as a group we can educate just a few people I guess we're doing a good thing.

Who was it that said trying to get a bunch of mountain bikers to work as a group is like trying to herd a group of cats?

[Maverick]

I'll be the first to admit that there is one log I can never seem to ride over. Unlike the idiots that make the own trail, I just hop off the bike and lift it over.

There is so many riders at Lebanon I imagine if there is and sign of trail going around something within a week it would look like part of the actual trail. Dakota should really put up a sign at all trail heads that state 'Stay On Designated Trails ONLY, Violators Can and Will Be Ticketed'. Of course that probably won't stop the idiots but at least they will know Dakota can ticket them for it.

Just remember on this one, my name is off. I do not do any of the above, I am not guilty on this one (to my knowledge at least). :cool:

[SPR]

Makes me wonder if these same people while driving cut off the main streets and roads to get to other streets or roads???

[grizzly adam]

I'll keep my eyes open when I'm there and try to fix anything or talk to riders doing the nasty.

Maybe we can build a deadfall where they are cutting across. I bet they'd fall in there once and not do it again! :p

[EmL34]

As long as someone else brought up the issue of ownership...

I have noticed that there are many, many, many people riding the XX loop. Nearly everyone I have seen has said they are doing so with permission, or acted like they were. That being said, who is granting this permission, and do they have the right to decide who can ride the trails?

I bring this up because I am upset about it. I've been a member in MORC for a while (if member # is an indicator, I have a low one) and I have contributed time in trailwork. I know there are others who have done much more, but this isn't the point. The point is that Dakota County, MORC members and various sponsors have made MORC trustees of this land and these trails. This responsibility should not be abused by people who are granting favors for friends at the expense of other members and riders.

I applaud the work that MORC has done and I am proud of my membership in this organization, but MORC is not meant to be an inner circle of self important MTB folk who rule the trails. Either the trail is open, or it isn't. If there weren't so many people using the trail with permission, there would be a lot fewer people using it without it, and jeopardizing future trail development. Personally, I'm disappointed that MORC leadership would abuse it's authority in this way, especially without inviting other members to participate. As I said before, there are several people who have made considerable effort and that should be recognized, but many others have made contributions as well and if it isn't recognized, it should at least be appreciated.

[gopherhockey]

Eric - thanks for asking this question. I'll try answer it as best I can.

First of all we all agree nobody owns the trails...

However, Dakota County has asked our trail steward Dale Gundberg to work with a few individuals to monitor the trails. They actually rely on us to notify them of happenings on the trails, conditions that might require closing the trail, when to open it in the spring etc. Everything goes through Dale though. (see more info on what a Trail Steward is all about elsewhere on this site)

This does not imply ownership, but it does mean some amount of responsibility has been given to Dale and a few MORC members that are dedicated to the efforts at Lebanon (i.e. over 500 hours of trail work each year, trail schools, etc.)

Having said that much, we walked the trail the other day with Dakota County and they gave Dale and company blessing to open it up as we saw fit. As a way to try promote trail work or reward those that have gone that extra step and actually showed up to help on the trails, we sometimes give permission to try out what we have worked on the last trail session. It isn't necessarily "official" license to ride, but it is an agreement among those spending their time out there that they can ride what they built if they respect the trail and KNOW they are on a closed trail.

Maybe we are going too far in granting that right... I dunno, I personally don't see anything wrong with it. If there are those abusing that right, thats one thing. If I see a guy who has spent many hours out there working with us taking a spin around while those who haven't sit by and watch... well.. I don't have a problem with that at all. (especially considering how many non trail volunteers go back and poach with absolutely no "permission" so to speak)

Furthermore, before a trail can be opened it certainly HAS to be ridden by someone. It would be dangerous for us not to do this. Not all poaching is fun - sometimes it is trial and error, making mental notes on things that need fixing etc.

MORC isn't trying to own the trail... but if I did a good enough job of describing the circumstances you will see that various individuals within MORC that have put a lot of time and effort and have gained the respect and trust of the land managers. These individuals have some amount of "ownership" so to speak.. just as everyone that has put in some hard effort out there.

Nobody owns the trail... but if anyone did beyond Dakota County and the taxpayers, it would be (as a state of mind only) the trail volunteers.

MORC members should feel some amount of that same feeling as well... giving their hard earned money to help us gain and maintain trails is certainly a step in the right direction. I certainly would never turn down a MORC member that wanted to ride into the trail with me... but the rewards we give MORC members really should have nothing to do with letting trail volunteers ride the trail. There are other things I'm working on in this regard - like trying to get a MORC member day at a certain local trail that isn't open to the general public.

I hope this helps? I hope you aren't too upset... I understand where you are coming from.... just remember that there are guys that have a lot put into these new trails, and they certainly have earned a little respect if nothing else. To say anyone is abusing anything without knowing the full story is just wrong.... as always, I invite people with questions on the trails or things like this to show up in person at a trail work day and get the full story before making too many assumptions.

Lastly, I'm not saying everything we do is right - we learn as we go for sure... but in this case I don't see what has been going on as a problem. I just wish we could find even more ways to reward those that show up for trail sessions.... and we will also continue to find ways to reward MORC members. (beyond what we already do)

[Trevize1138]

A slight deviation from the trail ownership topic ...

Do you think trail poaching and cutting and these issues will perhaps lessen at Lebannon over time? I'm betting that once newer trails start to get built at Murphey, Harmon and Terrace the biking population will spread to those new places, thinning the heavy use Lebannon is currently seeing.

I certainly feel your pain, John, but I think in the long run they're simply growing pains.

But, that's just me, always looking to the positive. Three dancing bananas for positivity!

:banana: :banana: :banana:

[martini]

I think that there's a ton of riders out there right now simply because its the hype of the town. Now if this hype is a good thing or bad thing, is kinda up in the air. On one hand its great for the MORC organization. Good exposure. But we do need to take the pressure off of Lebabnon. And soon. It is interesting to see how well the trail is taking all this use though. It's a real testament to how well teh trail was designed/built. Lets hope that we can get crackin' on these new systems as soon as possible as spread the love! I think it'd help tons!

[gopherhockey]

Originally posted by Trevize1138

Do you think trail poaching and cutting and these issues will perhaps lessen at Lebannon over time? I'm betting that once newer trails start to get built at Murphey, Harmon and Terrace the biking population will spread to those new places, thinning the heavy use Lebannon is currently seeing.



Hey, nice way to get things back on the original topic. Thanks! ;)

And yes, your point is certainly valid... we need other parks, and we need them badly. Lebanon is a great place to ride, but even the most sustainable trail can wear down if there are no other places to "take the heat off" so to speak. We (I) talk up Lebanon so much, but there are other great trails out there now and on the way. The "on the way" trails are important at this point in time and I hope that many of you will come and help out when it comes time to be active in these areas.

Harmon will probably be first. This will be a great trail and I think many people will find that a great new alternative.

If we can get more and more land owners and managers on our team and help us help them by allowing new trails, we'll spread things out.

What has been happening at Lebanon is probably to be expected for as much use as it sees in a week... I shouldn't get so down on a few cuts here and there as long as it didn't keep on happening. I'd hate to spend the whole summer with the volunteers dragging crap to block one trail from another and make the entire park look bad.

[martini]

Originally posted by gopherhockey
If we can get more and more land owners and managers on our team and help us help them by allowing new trails, we'll spread things out.

And this is the key! Getting other managers on board and enthusiastic about it. What you were saying on teausday about the Three-rivers folks absolutely digging (pun intended) what they were doing goes a long ways to establishing a certain credibility from the bottom up. What would be good is if we can get more officails and employees of the park system involved in a manner like this. Build their enthusiasm by having them actually build, not just by walking the trail and having them say "WOW". There's nothing like the impact that actually working the trail has on a persons opinion of whats happening.

[gopherhockey]

Yup, having the IMBA Hot Spots in town has truely given us some momentum.. I just hope we can ride it a little further and not let that enthusiasm die out.

I wish more people could have been involved this week. The trail schools were excellent - the advanced class we had at Gravity Labs today was really great. I'll post more details and photos of this soon. We basically finished both teeters that hopefully will eventually find their home on the XX loop at Lebanon - one large one, and one smaller "metric" one as a tribute to our great IMBA Trail Care Crew from the great white north...