Trail Conditions in Detail - Lebanon Hills

[gopherhockey]

Was out walking around today at Leb (despite the nasty bugs) - its a bit damp but should make for good riding by afternoon. I think people who were out this morning might have jumped the gun a little.. generally the day after a rain like we had its nice to wait until at least after noon... but it wasn't doing any real damage. It was so dry that the rain really soaked in well.

Those that I did saw mostly appeared to be respecting the trail for being a little damp which was nice.

I replaced a few rocks out there that people had removed from the XX that were kind of bugging me the last few weeks. I wish if people didn't like a rock they would roll it uphill instead of downhill ;)

[ryno lite]

I'll try to put them on the uphill side from now on! Sorry John!

[ryno lite]

I figure 99.9% of you know I was joking but for the other 0.1%, I was just joking, I know how hard it is to move them around so I'd never move them! Thanks for the fix John, I should be out sometime tommorrow to check it out and try to find a line through that new rock garden.

[gopherhockey]

Also beware of the roaming turkeys.. I hadn't seen them all year, just about ran into em' my last time out.

I don't know if it is me but they seem bigger this year... like huge event. 5' tall and fangs! (ok, maybe not that bad, but still!)

[nigel]

Also beware of the roaming turkeys.. I hadn't seen them all year, just about ran into em' my last time out.

I don't know if it is me but they seem bigger this year... like huge event. 5' tall and fangs! (ok, maybe not that bad, but still!)
10+ years at Leb and Ive still never seen any Turkeys! Just the ocassional deer, and there was that one time some animal escaped from the zoo and it was closed for a while, that was cool, think it was a couger or something!

D

[igor]

No turkeys at Leb today unless you count Ryno Lyte! :D

[ryno lite]

I hadn't seen any turkeys till this year. I've spotted him riding a blue Rocky Hammer! Beware, he's a scary beast!

[TML]

Turkey sightings! On my big ride at leb on thursday I saw turkeys twice on the climb out from the parking lot. They were crossing the trail just before you head up the the little rocky climb. One huge honkin' one with a couple of little ones.

[gopherhockey]

Turkey sightings! On my big ride at leb on thursday I saw turkeys twice on the climb out from the parking lot. They were crossing the trail just before you head up the the little rocky climb. One huge honkin' one with a couple of little ones.
I told ya that thing was big! ;)

Someone should get a picture of that sucker...

[TrailPatrol]

Turkey sightings! ... One huge honkin' one with a couple of little ones.
Turkeys don't honk, they gobble. Geese honk!

I know this because I'm a park ranger. :crazy2:

Later,
:banana:
Hans

[Rookie]

Does anyone know if its raining around leb today? Weather.com says it is, but frankly I know better than to believe them... I'd like to get a ride in tonight, but if its wet, i don't want to make the drive down... thanks in advance...

[TML]

Turkeys don't honk, they gobble. Geese honk!

I know this because I'm a park ranger. :crazy2:

Later,
:banana:
HansThe turkey's in question weren't making a noise of any sort. I was excercising alliteration to emphasize the enormity of the first bird. In this case probably a hen with her young. And if it was a hen, and she was that big, there's got to be some awfully good sized Toms back in there! :shocked:

--TML

[BrightYellow]

It's raining here in Bloomington, right across the river... and has been for awhile now...

[gopherhockey]

It's raining here in Bloomington, right across the river... and has been for awhile now...
Yup, about .5" so far - probably more on the way tonight. I'd give the trail most of Wed. off unless its really windy and sunny.

[gopherhockey]

Turkeys don't honk, they gobble. Geese honk!

I know this because I'm a park ranger. :crazy2:

Later,
:banana:
Hans
In this case he was right though.. Honkin' as in ample, bounty, plenty, abundant, tremendous, humongous, gargantuan, gigundo, gigantic, grand, long, big... etc.

C'mon Hans, even park rangers know slang don't they? ;)

[ryno lite]

Now that I think back, I saw some turkeys last fall while I was walking back to the trail session one Saturday. I've never seen them while riding at Leb. I must be slower than the turkeys!

[TrailPatrol]

C'mon Hans, even park rangers know slang don't they? ;)
C'mon John, even webmasters know a joke, don't they? :crazy2:

Seriously, it has been a very good year for wild turkeys in MN. I have seen lots of them this year at Sand Dunes, Lake Maria, Land o' Lakes, NW Angle (north of Warroad) and the Chippewa. It's been a real success story for the Wildlife Division. Starting to see more Ring-necked Pheasants, too.

Ride safe,
:banana:
Hans

[gopherhockey]

Anyone seen the conditions at lebanon today?

My guess is it could go either way - a bit wet due to the slow rain and cold conditions... or maybe its starting to recover by this afternoon... ?

I think we got like .5 to .75" yesterday/last night...

[cdkoch]

I rode leb at 4:00 today. It is rideable, but you will get a little muddy. Trail seems pretty hard with a few small puddles here and there.

[socrates]

I rode leb at 4:00 today. It is rideable, but you will get a little muddy. Trail seems pretty hard with a few small puddles here and there.
Chris,

(my intent is not to flame so please don't take it that way)

From your description of the conditions I would have stayed off the trail. If you're having to avoid puddles you could be wid'ning the trail (thus causing damage) and if there's enough "mud" flying off of your tires then the trail might not have been dry enough and you could be doing damage

[cdkoch]

David,

I always try to avoid damaging trails.....which include going through the small puddles and not around them. This is why I was saying that you might get a little muddy. I wouldn't have ridden if I thought that I was doing any damage. I have a lot of appreciation for what MORC does out there. On the other hand....I am very new to the sport and I appoligize to anyone who does trail work out there if damage was done. I may not be the best at judging conditions yet. Thanks for your concern.

[gopherhockey]

David,

I always try to avoid damaging trails.....which include going through the small puddles and not around them. This is why I was saying that you might get a little muddy. I wouldn't have ridden if I thought that I was doing any damage. I have a lot of appreciation for what MORC does out there. On the other hand....I am very new to the sport and I appoligize to anyone who does trail work out there if damage was done. I may not be the best at judging conditions yet. Thanks for your concern.
Its a tough call definitely... the expert loop seems to stand water/mud well after the trail returns to good riding conditions. This tends to be true especially when we get back to back rains without fully drying out between. Then there are sections that simply need some more work.

I think conditions were ok this evening. I took one lap around 6:30 to see how things are and it actually wasn't too bad other than those few spots.

We have a good educated bunch of people.. and I sense that you are falling into that trap too. Soon you'll be out there watching for erosion problems or misplaced obstacles like the rest - thats when you have to start to really worry! ;)

Thanks to both of you for being aware of the trail conditions!!! I'm giving you both positive rep points for it...

[stoneage]

I must be slower than the turkeys!

A mature turkey can run over 30 miles an hour!!!!

[syntaxjunkie]

A mature turkey can run over 30 miles an hour!!!!

How Clavinesque.

Do you speak from experience? And if so, what did the turkey do to you when he/she caught you?

[noise_is_life]

A mature turkey can run over 30 miles an hour!!!!
I knew you were fast Baba, but I didn't know you were THAT fast. :D

[bigwheel]

Turkey sightings! On my big ride at leb on thursday I saw turkeys twice on the climb out from the parking lot. They were crossing the trail just before you head up the the little rocky climb. One huge honkin' one with a couple of little ones.
Last week, I scared up a turkey in the X loop. Being nice, I tried waiting for it to move aside, but it kept running a few feet down the trail and stopping. This went on the whole way from before the multi-log crossing to the 1x bridge, where it finally moved off to the side.

[destrago]

I see that huge turkey almost every time I ride (usually 2-3x a week) Leb. I have also encountered a few white tail deer in XX at the 180 turn between the two bridges. I imagine hitting a deer on a bike is somewhat less lethal but probably more painfull than in a car.

-Tony

[gopherhockey]

I see that huge turkey almost every time I ride (usually 2-3x a week) Leb. I have also encountered a few white tail deer in XX at the 180 turn between the two bridges. I imagine hitting a deer on a bike is somewhat less lethal but probably more painfull than in a car.

-Tony
Actually getting hit by a deer is probably more the case than someone hitting the deer. They run out real fast and mow you right over. We had someone get run over last year at Buck Hill and it wasn't pretty.... deer out on the trail are fun but when they start to run I'd use caution. I often stop or look where the deer is coming from to be sure there aren't more on their way accross the trail.

[destrago]

Ouch. Hope he was ok. I stopped to let the deer do their thing (since we're riding in their home). They looked at me for a moment (deer in headlights style) then decided to go elsewhere, but they were quite liesurely about it. I wonder if they're so used to bikers in leb. by now that they didn't care or if they just didn't really know what to think of me. I fortunately saw them from a good distance away, and they clearly heard and saw me. A spooked deer can be quite dangerous I can imagine.

-Tony

[gopherhockey]

Ouch. Hope he was ok. I stopped to let the deer do their thing (since we're riding in their home). They looked at me for a moment (deer in headlights style) then decided to go elsewhere, but they were quite liesurely about it. I wonder if they're so used to bikers in leb. by now that they didn't care or if they just didn't really know what to think of me. I fortunately saw them from a good distance away, and they clearly heard and saw me. A spooked deer can be quite dangerous I can imagine.

-Tony
Yea, I think they are pretty used too it now, although I've scattered them pretty bad in the X loop. That place worries me because I can scare a deer that takes off crossing more than a few of our trails as it makes its way... I'm always a little worried that I'll cause someone else to get run over in some other area of the park :confused:

Anyone been to Leb yet today? I assume its in ok conditions but looks like more rain on the way...

[stoneage]

I knew you were fast Baba, but I didn't know you were THAT fast. :D

I don't care if you call me a turkey; just don't ever call me mature!!!!



"You don't quit playing because you get old; you get old because you quit playing."

[Tegra54]

ummmm sorry to interupt the turkey talk :confused: .......

but any words on the trail conditions? i know it rained buckets sunday morning but it got hot and then it was hot today, will they be good to ride tomorrow??

[gopherhockey]

I was out there just now - conditions are good - dry most places, damp in low spots... there seem to be rain threatening though. We could use some more drying days.

The skidders were out full force today. I think one guy did more damage today with his bike on one lap than any one of us would do all year... I almost think he had to be trying to do what he did.

[ryno lite]

A mature turkey can run over 30 miles an hour!!!!
I don't feel so bad now!

[Tim Wegner]

I was out today and saw all the skidding also. I think earlier this year we had a discussion about #$#@#$$$^ that could not ride their bikes with the skill needed to navigate the Lebanon trails without skidding.

I believe that there is a finite speed at which Leb can be ridden. That finite speed is dependent upon your skills as well as the quality of the bike that is being ridden. The most important of these is riding skill. Howcome I can ride the entire trail and not skid anywhere and someone else skids in to every corner?? I know I am old and ride much slower than most of you youngsters however if you are skidding two things are happening: 1. you are out of control 2. you are riding at a speed that is beyond your riding ability. These two things can explain some of the injuries that I have seen written about in these forums lately.

I hate to see skids in the turns, it just means that eventually we will have to repair that area rather than build a new trail somewhere. At my age (54) I figure I have about 20 more years of riding before I will slow down too much more but those of you that are in your 20's need to pick up the torch to educate your fellow riders about improving their skills. You also need to pick up a mccloud and do some trail work. I guarntee that one trail building session and those guys that skid will change their attitude about riding the trails.

I have been working with a new trail guy designing the trails at Wirth the past 3 months. He told me I have taken all the fun out of his riding. Now he is riding and critiqing the trails and looking at areas that need repair. Trail work= pride in the trail and trail ownership.

I challenge those of you that visit the forums regularly to get involved in trail work--there is nothing more rewarding or exciting than see trail design become trail reality.
TW

[stoneage]

Amen Tim,
I am 59 and I can rip through Leb as fast as anyone, and I never skid. I am going to start confronting these jerks. Maybe we need some volunteers to sit out on the bad sections, in lieu of trail work, and actually stop these yahoos and ask what the hell they are thinking. A little education and tough love wouldn't hurt.

[ryno lite]

I was out talking to another MORC member and volunteer at Leb on July 5th and he told me he confronted 3 renegades about skidding and they wanted to beat him up for confronting them and judging from the looks of these guys maybe they could have!

On another note, I'm with Tim, I tend to ride the trails a bit slower, but this allows me to control my bike without skidding. I may be younger than Tim, but I am no daredevil so the slower speed works for me. It's still fun and I don't have to damage those trails that I feel I have part ownership in!

[stoneage]

" ......they wanted to beat him up for confronting them and judging from the looks of these guys maybe they could have! "

I certainly won't be intimidated by someone not respecting others hard work and enjoyment. It is time for everyone to at least say something when they see this activity. Silence surely won't help in stopping what I consider vandalism. I think it is critical that something be done, due to the rapid deterioration of the trail. The "Dream" is going to turn into a nightmare. It reminds me of how quickly "Brownie" fell apart. Maybe an open, honest discussion with Dakota county about the problem would initiate some intervention on their part.

[gopherhockey]

I certainly won't be intimidated by someone not respecting others hard work and enjoyment. It is time for everyone to at least say something when they see this activity. Silence surely won't help in stopping what I consider vandalism. I think it is critical that something be done, due to the rapid deterioration of the trail. The "Dream" is going to turn into a nightmare. It reminds me of how quickly "Brownie" fell apart. Maybe an open, honest discussion with Dakota county about the problem would initiate some intervention on their part.
I agree... I don't care how many riders or how big they are, I'm going to say something to them. Even if they strike back with verbal attacks I think they will still at least think about what is said. If a person is told that they are both damaging the trails AND showing they aren't in control of their bikes its going to sink in a little, even if it stings a bit to hear.

Some just need education. I try not get down too much on these people.. hopefully once they know they will stop. I sense that there are those that are skidding just to spite what we are saying, however. I have heard rumor but do not want to believe that some are people I actually know. I really hope this isn't true.

Some no skidding signs are needed as well. I'm going to start doing something about this now until a permanent solution is in place.

[mtnbykr]

Howcome I can ride the entire trail and not skid anywhere and someone else skids in to every corner?? TW
could be due to threads like this?? lap times.. (http://www.morcmtb.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10829)

kl




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[bigwheel]

could be due to threads like this?? lap times.. (http://www.morcmtb.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10829)

kl
.
I don't think so. We all like to ride fast -- especially on the dream trail. However, anyone who doesn't know how to use their front brake doesn't know how to ride their bike. If you use your front brake, the back wheel won't hop.

Maybe it's time to "mess up" the trail with a few more obstacles??

[gopherhockey]

Maybe it's time to "mess up" the trail with a few more obstacles??
This is probably not too far from the truth. The trick is to try not affect the flow of the trail for skilled riders, yet get enough control points into the trail to stop beginners from doing damage.

It appears whomever this is gets rolling and doesn't stop until they are going too fast and *have* to stop suddenly. If we add things to force them to control their speed a little more we could reduce their speed thus reducing the skids... good riders will still be able to control around these without losing anything.

Thats easier said than done though - especially considering there is damage that needs to be addressed as well. Its not easy to fix braking bumps when they form... you almost have to dig it all out and re-bench it.

[syntaxjunkie]

i agree with pretty much everything that's been said about skidding here (and elsewhere). and certainly, some riders are more guilty of it than others--especially those without a physical and emotional investment in the trail. but i would CAUTIOUSLY advance the notion that maybe, just maybe, some of the skidding on the dream trail can be chalked up to the fact that it's new trail and many people are riding it for the first time.

everyone who reads this has enough time in the saddle to know the importance of regulating speed, especially on an unfamiliar trail. but i'd be willing to wager that all of us have also let adrenaline get the best of us and taken too much speed into a sharp corner, especially in the rush of riding a new trail. we do it, we make a mental note, and we ride smarter the next time.

the countless hours of trail work that MORC folks have put in to making leb the gem that it is have definitely increased traffic on the trail. you don't need to look further than the parking lot to prove that. and it's a safe bet that many of those folks are newer to mountain biking or just don't know the trail.

i refuse to be an apologist for irresponsible riders. or stupid, arrogant ones for that matter. but i predict that the levels of skid damage to the new trail will steadily decrease as people get more familiar with it. a kind but firm word to the uninitiated never hurts, but neither does experience.

[Tegra54]

as simplistic as it sounds how about putting a sign at the trail head with advice like:

These trails were built by the hard volunteer work of the amazing MORC members for your enjoyment. Please respect their work and the trails by:

1) DON'T SKID: locking up your tires and skidding cause damage to the trails. control your speed
2) DON'T RIDE WET: riding on muddy trails causes severe damage. please respect the work of the MORC members and turn around and walk off if it is overly muddy.
3) STAY ON THE TRAILS: going off the trails cause trail widening which destroys the trails.
4) HAVE FUN: these trails were built for your enjoyment. if we all do our part to respect them, they will be around for a long time :banana:



i would be willing to wager a large chunk of change that it is ignorance rather than spite that people do those following behaviors. mount that on a nice wooden sign at the trail head with large readable letters (dancing banana included) and voila, problems solved.

[syntaxjunkie]

amen.

and a chorus of dancing bananas.

:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

[gopherhockey]

but i predict that the levels of skid damage to the new trail will steadily decrease as people get more familiar with it. a kind but firm word to the uninitiated never hurts, but neither does experience.
I totally agree with this. In fact you can actually predict that damage happens more when trails are first opened. Take the last downhill to the bridge on the dream trail - people are still learning (the hard way in some cases) that there is a section that will launch you into the dry riverbed unless you stick to the right and watch your speed.

I think being kind about it is always the best way to go. I think if someone challenges people the wrong way they might be more apt to come back and do damage just out of spite... or they won't really listen if they are not dealt with in a nice way. It is hard to do though!

Regardless of all this, even riders on a new trail should at some point in their riding career learn to take it slow the first few times. The initial damage could be minimized if riders would just learn the trail first before they pick up their speed. Perhaps a sign to this affect when a new trail is opened might help as well...

"This is a brand new ___ level trail. We ask for your own safety and the good of the trail that you please ride it at a slower speed until you get to know the trail...."

Or something like that.

Of course there are people bent on taking all our signs down, so no matter what we put up its going to have to be replaced time and time again.

[Magic]

Hey John, how about sign with razor wire around them. Let's see them take em now!!!!:geek:

[TML]

Regardless of all this, even riders on a new trail should at some point in their riding career learn to take it slow the first few times. The initial damage could be minimized if riders would just learn the trail first before they pick up their speed. Perhaps a sign to this affect when a new trail is opened might help as well...

I had a bad feeling about the skidding and the stutter bumps coming the first time I rode the trail.

A suggestion to all- Hold back your urges to let'r rip for a little while. Ride the new trail out fairly slowly for the first few weeks. The dirt is tender now, so we don't need to prematurely get a bunch of stutter bumps started in the soft dirt. Ride it slow and pack in every inch of that flowing ribbon.
I posted this in two threads on May 7th. When I wrote it I was hoping that I wasn't being to prophetic but it now seems that the trail is seeing some damage. I think we're on the right track though, continuing to educate. Having a kind word with those that are skidding and skipping around, when we get the chance, will make a difference.

I see some of those skid marks out there and I have to wonder how the rider came out of it. Many of them lead off into the toolies or straight into trees. :crazy:

[destrago]

I may be the exception here but when I started riding leb this spring the first thing I went looking for was a list of what to and not to do on the trail. I watched a few other riders go out and kindof followed them out of the parking lot on the double track (and then lost sight of them as I took the gravel downhill very slowly the first time). Before I even went out though I looked at the sign in the parking lot -but it had nothing about the mountain biking trails in it at the time, only the cross country ski trails.

I think a sign in there with some 'basic' trail rules would be very benefitial (a simple printed out normal sheet of paper will suffice just fine). I would have certainly liked to know what to do and not to do out on the trails. After I found this site and read some rants I got a feel for it, but until this thread started I wouldn't have known that skidding can do such damage to a trail (after admiting ignorance i must now say that I'm way to cautious to ever be going fast enoug that I have to skid to stop... I only did once and that was because my front brake froze and i ended up eating a tree for my sins!)

The riders on this forum have years of riding, and lots have years of building experience. To you, these truths are self evident. But the well meaning ignorant rider is just as bad as a malicious rider - and I think that there are far more well meaning ignorant people in the world than outwardly malicious. Just like the riding wet issue, those who are going to do it anyway are going to do it anyway, but I think some simple guidelines about when to ride, when not to, and how to respect the trails posted at the trailhead or, at the beginning of sections (even something like the sign before X) would help reduce some of these problems.


-Tony

P.S. - I now know not to ride when the trail is wet, not to ride off the trail, and not to skid to reduce speed .... what else should newB's like myself know?:confused:

[gopherhockey]

P.S. - I now know not to ride when the trail is wet, not to ride off the trail, and not to skid to reduce speed .... what else should newB's like myself know?:confused:
I think something we don't stress enough with all our rules and regulations is to, above all else, enjoy the trail and your ride!

We get caught up in the rules... for good reasons... but I fear some come here and get flooded with nothing but the negatives. I personally would be kind of turned off if I didn't read reminders once in a while to have fun. We all know thats the end result of all our care for our trails - but to the casual reader it may not be in bold enough text.

So... have fun out there! ;)

[mtnbykr]

back on topic...


I don't think so. We all like to ride fast -- especially on the dream trail. However, anyone who doesn't know how to use their front brake doesn't know how to ride their bike.
sorry, but i see it all the time. we have rides where the "fast" riders aren't in front w/ the rest so they cut switchbacks, make new lines and burn too hot into the corners. publicizing your fast times only makes the next guy wanna "beat" you and so on and so on. save the "race training" for the race courses...

i've rode lh enough to know just how fast of a trail it is. lots faster than anything we have in dulluth.

Maybe it's time to "mess up" the trail with a few more obstacles??
some tight, curvy switchbacks maybe??

kl




.

[berrywise]

we have rides where the "fast" riders aren't in front w/ the rest so they cut switchbacks, make new lines and burn too hot into the corners. If that is the case then the people you ride with should be informed that they should know to get ahead of slower riders before they enter a fast section or they should just suffer it out and ride slowly and not cut corners.

I think the majority of skidding comes from people that don't A.) know any better or B.) Don't know how to control their bike or C.)Don't give a rats ass and think its cool.

I think the majority of the poeple who use (and take part in) these forums are not the ones causing all the skidding damage.

Going fast doesn't go hand in hand with skidding. And, personally speaking, I am not going to damage trails in order to beat someone's lap time they posted here.
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but the real truth to all the skid marks is all the people out there practising their countersteering :etard:

[Magic]

I truely feel that the majority of the skidding is from neighborhood kids on there bikes riding the trails. I see little kids in my neighborhood skidding all the time. When I ask them why they do that, they say because it's cool. My daughter does it on the sidewalk even after I tell her not to. Why, because all the other kids are doing it. But I tell her that those tires and tubes cost money. She don't get it. But in time she will. Not to be picking on the kids, but I feel that's where the problem lies. Also as stated, people need to learn how to use the front brake. I use my front brake 65 to 70% of the time when braking. I feel most people are scared to use the front brake because of horror stories they have heard from others. Education is the only answer, plus signage. Thats my thoughts on this skidding issue.

[soupboy]

...how about armoring the trails with a rock garden or big log piles where bumps are developing? Oh wait, that will just move the bumps farther back up trail.

How about everyone get Horst-link type FS bikes to provide best braking performance. Nah, doesn't work either.

How about a big sign in the lot that says.

Do not skid.
It ruins the trails.
It makes you a Fred.
Don't be a Fred.
Chicks don't dig Freds.
Other riders hate Freds.
Freds will be ritually stoned.
And then eaten.
By cannibalistic gnomes.

Just a thought,

Sean

BTW - No one named Fred was harmed by the writing of this post.

[Kingbozo]

how about armoring the trails with a rock garden or big log piles where bumps are developing? Oh wait, that will just move the bumps farther back up trail.

How about everyone get Horst-link type FS bikes to provide best braking performance. Nah, doesn't work either.

How about a big sign in the lot that says.

Do not skid.
It ruins the trails.
It makes you a Fred.
Don't be a Fred.
Chicks don't dig Freds.
Other riders hate Freds.
Freds will be ritually stoned.
And then eaten.
By cannibalistic gnomes.

Just a thought,

Sean

BTW - No one named Fred was harmed by the writing of this post.

[berrywise]

I saw skids today where there was no reason to skid, such as going uphill. Perhaps somebody is pushing the bike and dragging the tire.
My guess is not only were they going the wrong way they had to skid too :geek:

[bigwheel]

I saw skids today where there was no reason to skid, such as going uphill.

I truely feel that the majority of the skidding is from neighborhood kids on there bikes riding the trails.
Hmmm. Maybe it was the neighborhood kids riding the trail backwards.

I just got back from a ride. (Excellent conditions, btw.) I noticed that there really aren't any skid bumps on the xx section, even on the fast downhill part. Is it safe to conclude that most of the skids come from riders that don't do the xx?

Perhaps if we added a few obstacles on the downhills, but provided slow ride-arounds for the novices. Then, we plant poison ivy in all the places where someone would be tempted to cheat.:evil: We could probably also add a couple obstacles that would be easy to ride in the right direction, but be difficult to ride backwards.

[soupboy]

This is me, albeit about 4 years, a head of hair and 25#s ago...

I'm changing my handle to The Mayor

[stoneage]

"I've found it much easier to avoid dragging the rear tire"

Using the front brake is the key; it's just physics.


"Neighborhood kids"

I don't think so; all the bumps are right before corners after a fast section.
It's Freds.


"Lap times"

You can go faster by NOT skidding your tire. I'll match lap times with anyone and never skid.

[KleinCrazy]

BTW - No one named Fred was harmed by the writing of this post.<!-- / message --><!-- attachments -->
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Hehehe,


I went to school with Fred down at Iowa State. He wouldn't know me from Adam, but we did go to a number of the same parties since we were both on winter Athletic teams.

[ryno lite]

I was out talking to another MORC member and volunteer at Leb on July 5th and he told me he confronted 3 renegades about skidding and they wanted to beat him up for confronting them and judging from the looks of these guys maybe they could have!

On another note, I'm with Tim, I tend to ride the trails a bit slower, but this allows me to control my bike without skidding. I may be younger than Tim, but I am no daredevil so the slower speed works for me. It's still fun and I don't have to damage those trails that I feel I have part ownership in!
By the way, I wasn't saying don't stand up and tell people not to skid, I was just pointing out the fact that some people are a pain and won't listen if you tell them something. I think telling people is the right way to go cause some people will listen, but some people are going to be a$$holes any way you deal with them!

[ryno lite]

I also don't think it's neighborhood kids either, cause it's so far back on the trail and as stated earlier, it's always on tough turns where riders can be going too fast if they don't know how to control themselves. It definetely is a problem and it's getting worse. I think telling people not to skid is one way to help, but I hope creative trail work can prevent it!

I also agree that I think someone is skidding on purpose. Riding tonight I saw skids ten feet long on the X loop in spots that shouldn't warrent skidding even from a reckless rider. These had intentional skid written all over them. These skids are occuring in spots that I have never seen a skid in the past 3 seasons. Just seems weird. As far as the skidding on the dream trail is concerned, some of those skids looked like they ended with an unfortunate accident. People got to take it easy till the know the trail and can handle it.

[berrywise]

I like seeing how many squiggles I can put in my snake skid down the middle of the trail! No fun!

I rode with a friend who is much slower than myself so I really got a good chance to watch my front wheel and notice the skids and break bumps etc. Its amazing how strange some of the places people skids are how predictable some other spots are for skids.

On the other hand I also thought it was crazy how many scratch marks some of the bigger rocks have out there from people wiping out!

[nigel]

I agree with the fact that we need to educate people "proper" riding techniques and such. However I have gotten complaints from people saying that MORC is standoffish and has a "click". Your in or your out kinda deal, or feeling form people not in MORC. I think we need to figure out a non-confrontational way to explain things, and NEVER yell at anyone on the trails or even have harsh words at them, maybe toss a flyer in eveyrones car after ya see something? If we can get flyers printed up with the site info and stuff (i may be able to help with this) we can all get a bunch and hand em out under wipers, this will help people become more aware seeing how "most" folks use the big bad scary internet.

Just some things ive been hearing about the trails is all. We want to keep out trails nice and help recruit more people and spread the word about cycling and its benifits and not turn people away as some are doing.

Douglas

[ryno lite]

Interesting response from people and I don't doubt some people think that! Although if there is a "click", it's easy to join, just become a member and donate some time! It's easy to be part of MORC, we take members and volunteers in with open arms. Those that think it's a click haven't taken the time to check us out. It's too bad, the more members the better! So all you non-members out there, don't be scared, check us out and join up, you'll probably find out the same thing I did, this sure is a great bunch of people!

[ozlongboarder]

If the direction of travel was changed at the start of each new season it will help spread load over the entire trail. Sure some of the obstacles will need to be switched (teter toter) but nothing major. Its not that challenging backwards, I did last year at night with out any problems.

[Rookie]

I rode last night for the first time this season... Nice change on the back end, its much more fun than that crap double track that used to end the trail... Anyways, I was able to make it through with out skidding, but I can see where it is easy to get moving alittle faster than one might be comfortable with, and instinct is to hit the breaks... I will say i am totally against putting anything in anyones windshield. Unless you are going to be willing to go through the parking lot at the end of the night and pick them up. People will take them and toss em on the ground. They might read it first, but they don't want trash in thier car... I don't know what the answer is, and even being a novice, I could tell where there were problems... Most people I've encounterd there have been really nice and open to suggestions on how to ride. if you come across a skidder, wait at the end of the trail and give advice on how to make it through with out dragging the rear wheel... don't scold and don't tell them how to ride though, that will just cause problems...

[gopherhockey]

We have talked about going backwards. The problem is of obstacles, flow, but more importantly rider confusion and safety.

If riders can't even get the direction right now, imagine what it would be if we switched things around. I think it could be done, but it would have to be done with some serious signage and education... we don't yet even have good enough signs to keep them going the right way, unfortunately.

I still wish we had backwards day at Lebanon though... even just one day a year ;) In some ways maybe having a backwards day might educate riders about the proper way... hmmm..

[bigwheel]

How about posting a short (less than 1 page) newsletter at the trail head? I know that there is general info posted, but it would be nice to have something that is updated weekly, or when necessary.

1: It could talk about any new sections, new obstacles, and planned changes.
2: It could discuss problems (such as skid holes), what changes will likely have to be made because of them, and how riders can adjust their habits to help prevent the problems.
3: It could be an easy place to advertise for volunteers, and morc members.
4: It could be a place to advertise morc events and new trails.

It would be a quick but interesting read, and a nice place to tell people about things like skidding and wet riding without "yelling" at them. The target reader would be the person who doesn't visit the morc site.

Maybe someone from Dakota County could post the newsletter if we email it to them.

[dave t]

I still wish we had backwards day at Lebanon though... even just one day a year ;) In some ways maybe having a backwards day might educate riders about the proper way... hmmm..

OOOOOOOO BOY! Backwards day at Lebanon! Tell me when and I'll spend whatever time it takes to get ready and to go back after its done. I have always wanted to do Leb the wrong way. I've done many sections and obstacles backwards as the trail crew test dummy but the whole trail would be so cool!

Pretty much every thing was ridable when it was built and teeters just need some weight attached to the normally up side and, tada, Instant backwards teeter.

Please, can we do it? Can we do it? Can we? Huh? Can we do it? We'll be real good we promise! Puleeeeeeeese?

[gopherhockey]

Got dumped on last night by a very small but very red shower. .40" in Apple Valley, not sure how much at Leb exactly.

Ride with care today and let us know...

[destrago]

Ground is completely dry here at Diffley and JohnnyCake about 1 mi. north of leb. I don't even know if it rained here. If it did it didn't seem to do much... I'll be on leb at 12:00 and will pay attention to see if trails are wet at all.

-Tony

[gopherhockey]

Ground is completely dry here at Diffley and JohnnyCake about 1 mi. north of leb. I don't even know if it rained here. If it did it didn't seem to do much... I'll be on leb at 12:00 and will pay attention to see if trails are wet at all.

-Tony
I saw a pretty wet sidewalk and road as I drove by on the Galaxie entrance, but my guess is if rain did fall it wasn't the quantity we had in Apple Valley. I looked at the radar when it was coming down and it was a pretty small and concentrated area.

Then again I'm just a few miles south of Lebanon...

[NiXXeD]

Hmmmm... I've been looking at new bikes lately, and today was going to be my buying day... I hope it's not too wet out there, as I'd probably want to try it out a little later...

I haven't actually bought the new bike yet though... any suggestions/advice? The one I was looking at was a Gary Fisher Sugar 3+ Disc...

[destrago]

I saw a pretty wet sidewalk and road as I drove by on the Galaxie entrance, but my guess is if rain did fall it wasn't the quantity we had in Apple Valley. I looked at the radar when it was coming down and it was a pretty small and concentrated area.

Then again I'm just a few miles south of Lebanon...

I stand corrected! There are some puddles of standing water in a few places (even on the beginner loop) - it's rideable, most of the wetness is on X as usual. We had a pretty fun group ride out there today. Be ready to slow down through one or two major puddles, other than that it's all good. Strange because I don't even know if it rained here, but it certainly did at leb.

-Tony

[bigwheel]

Looks like a tree went down on the new intermediate section -- the short section that ends at the start of the X. It is near the end of the section, and catches you a bit off guard, being in a fast part of the trail.

The tree is about 10~12 inches in diameter, and crosses the trail an inch or two off the ground. It is crossable, but will test your ground clearance or hopping skills.

I'm available tomorrow (thurs 7/22) mid-day or evening to help fix it. (send me an email) With very little work, it would make a nice log crossing.

[bigwheel]

Looks like a tree went down on the new intermediate section
When I got there today, several guys had just finished dragging it out of the way.

Thanks, guys. That one might have caused a nasty fall for some unsuspecting sucker.

[f16xelecx]

Wow, leb is getting really really sandy. My front wheel slid out on me about 5 times today, once at the very biggining of the first climb. I just kept turning my wheel until I was on the ground, thinking "this sucks". Everyone laughed at me. oh well. But I hope we get a little rain soon to firm up the track.

[gopherhockey]

Thanks to Bob Shepherd for walking out and fixing the area above Jan's rock today. He emailed me and asked if he could help out by packing in some dirt to help stop the erosion and I told him to go ahead... Bob has been on the trail crew most of the year and (like many others) is always eager to help out.

He packed it in nice and solid. It will appear real easy now, but I found it fun to get some speed going down the rock - almost launched it. Eventually this will start to uncover the rocks that are hardening that area so please don't complain if it appears overly simplified - often you have to do that because the trail really settles after riders get in there.

Thanks Bob for helping out!!

[Tegra54]

just rode out to leb from my house to get there and it was sprinkling.....the sky was getting very dark so i put two and two together and turned around at the parking lot :cryin:

it isnt pouring yet, but by the time i got back to my house (~6 miles south) the sky was getting very dark and i heard a low rumble of thunder.

not being a meterologist i cannot predict if this will blow over or not, i decided to turn around and go home because i didnt want to ride in the streets during a thunder storm and get hit by a car.

My advice if you are planning on riding tonight and have a long drive to get here, dont do it. It would suck to drive there in a car and get there for a huge thunderstorm.

http://www.weather.com/weather/local/55124?lswe=55124&lwsa=WeatherLocalUndeclared
showes a map to the area and it looks like we are under a pretty small (but intense) cell. my guess would be tomorrow night would be better for a trek down to leb.

sorry if this news 'rains' on anybodys plans :p

[Tegra54]

sun's back :cool:.....anybody been out there this afternoon to see if it is too wet to ride?

It was coming down pretty good for a while but i dont know how much actually came down? or how wet the trails are? i dont want to ride out there for a second time today and turn home again because of the water

bueller? bueller?

[Pete]

Anyone riden/been to Lebanon Fri. evening or Saturday?? Was wondering if it is rideable after the rain we got yesterday.

[socrates]

Anyone riden/been to Lebanon Fri. evening or Saturday?? Was wondering if it is rideable after the rain we got yesterday.
Sorry I forgot to update the conditions...I was out at 9am this morning...1 small puddle that you couldn't avoid in the bottom part of X...the entire trail went from sandy to tacky to the 1 puddle above

[gopherhockey]

Huge storm headed right for Lebanon... looks like some heavy rain coming.

Probably end the weekends riding.

[Brick]

Probably end the weekends riding.
Agreed, I was out this morning and the trail was pretty tacky. Too much more moisture w/o time to dry would not be good.

[socrates]

Agreed, I was out this morning and the trail was pretty tacky. Too much more moisture w/o time to dry would not be good.Darn it...I thought it would be pretty wet from last nights storm so I said I'd wait....I should have gone and checked it out :(

BTW: John....I'm sorry but I just couldn't take looking at your avatar any longer so I had to switch mine :)

[EmL34]

Does Michigan State have a hockey team?

[gopherhockey]

Does Michigan State have a hockey team?
Yup they do. Not too bad either - both Michigan's have good programs. Big 10 schools all have good programs.

Back on topic, we got a fair amount of rain and even hail today. Hope nobody got caught in it. Wasn't as much as I thought it would be, but it probably added on top of already tacky conditions.

Maybe some good drying Monday will bring things around.

[EmL34]

I was joking...Just trying to give that crazy liberal Socrates a hard time.

[bigwheel]

(Monday 1:30pm) There's another tree down, near the end of the XX - Just past the place where the troll used to live. It's going to take a saw and a couple bodies to get it out of the way.

Maybe a few of us can take care of it tomorrow evening after trail snipping. I plan to be there, assuming I don't get any last-minute work surprises.

I'll also bring my chain saw, in case John changes his mind and wants to eliminate that pesky old tropical rainforest.:etard:

[socrates]

crazy liberal Socrates
You'll notice it's a spartan not a wolverine I've got as an avatar....liberal Me?...all of East Lansing is republican country...A2 (although I do miss living there) is liberal...they should actually be considered a part of this state! :)

[socrates]

(Monday 1:30pm) There's another tree down, near the end of the XX - Just past the place where the troll used to live. It's going to take a saw and a couple bodies to get it out of the way.

Maybe a few of us can take care of it tomorrow evening after trail snipping. I plan to be there, assuming I don't get any last-minute work surprises.

I'll also bring my chain saw, in case John changes his mind and wants to eliminate that pesky old tropical rainforest.:etard:
Wow...kinda gives you a "right place, right time" feeling...I was out there from 8-9:15 this morning and there were a couple of twigs on the trail but that's it...glad I wasn't there when it came down (BTW: It was awesome out there this morning...Not another car in the lot....1 local rider in the dream trail as I was exiting)

[gopherhockey]

We're going to be closing the initial part of the climb out to get riders to try the new trail. (just the small part leading from the parking lot to the gravel climb a ways up the trail).

Trouble is if we leave both open people might start going backwards down the new trail or soemthing like that... so watch for the old trail to close down as we start shifting over and using the small first section of new trail.

[timmy]

Does anyone know the condition of lebanon? Would like to go for a ride about 6:30 if it is not too wet.

[bradpartyka]

It poured there this morning. I would assume it is still too wet to ride.

[bretb]

If it doesn't rain tonight (Saturday), do you think it will be dry enough first thing Sunday morning?

[timmy]

I went out today at 6:00pm and it was really wet. Seeing how the trail was today, I would not recommend riding out there till atleast Monday. Thats just my opinion.

[rowland]

it hasn't rained up here since friday night. is it dry enough to ride lh? has anyoune been out this morning?

[bradpartyka]

What are you talking about. It poured at Lebanon yesterday. It is sprinkling right now. I just came in from a road ride and was getting wet. There expecting heavy thunderstorms today.

[rowland]

that's why i asked, partly sunny with no rain up here. didn't want to drive down there to find a wash out.

[bradpartyka]

that's why i asked, partly sunny with no rain up here. didn't want to drive down there to find a wash out.
Oh yeah, I gotta ya... didn't see you were referring to UP North. Lol!!!

[hagestadklein]

Very ridable at 0800 - no wet spots, dry conditions throughout, it was sunny and getting warmer - go enjoy before the forecast thunderstorms.:banana:

Bill

[ryno lite]

Leb was completely dry except for a handful of classic mudholes. You guys know which ones.

[gopherhockey]

Please note that the trail leading up out of the parking lot has now changed permanently, with the beginning part of the ski trail now being closed off. Only the very first section of the newest trail is open - we hope to get the rest open sometime in late August or September!

[cheese4brains]

It was raining pretty hard at 6am this morning on my way through Burnsville. Does anyone have an idea how much rain Lebanon received overnight and/or an opinion whether it will be rideable early this afternoon?

[The Bull]

I am also looking to ride after work. Any one know the conditions?

[gopherhockey]

I'd bet that conditions are ok by this afternoon. I think we only got about a .10" of rain at most at Leb...

[f16xelecx]

Conditions are fine for riding. It's between tacky and damp. Only a couple of places with any standing water. A few softer muddy spots, but nothing really bad. I would say it's fine to ride.

[Tegra54]

it has been 'misting' all day. enough to get on your glasses to get annoying but not enough to even make even the pavement wet

when i rode around 2 ish it was looking good, although there are dark clouds rollling in now

[Mateo]

I assume that Lebenon will again be ok by this afternoon? In St Paul, we didn't get more than the misting...

Mateo

[Tegra54]

bright and sunny here :cool:

edit: i should clear that up a little, we didnt get any major precipitation either today or yesterday, so have fun!

[gopherhockey]

3 bananas for Bob Shepherd for going out and taking care of the tree that was down in the XX loop. He did it without using a chain saw as well!!!

:banana: :banana: :banana:

[destrago]

That's because Bob is one buff dude!
Rock on bob!
:banana:

-Tony

[gopherhockey]

.35" of rain over the last day - slow rain... trail might need some time to recover. We're happy to get the rain though!

[dasil003]

What do you guys think? It stopped raining this morning and it's been partly sunny and pretty warm (humid though). Think the trail will be good by 5pm? I promise not to skid :etard:

[gopherhockey]

What do you guys think? It stopped raining this morning and it's been partly sunny and pretty warm (humid though). Think the trail will be good by 5pm? I promise not to skid :etard:
I always think if someone is cautious enough to post this type of thing, they are cautious enough to go out and give it a shot - stopping if its too wet, or riding along then coming back and posting an update if its ok ;)

Thanks for posting this... I really enjoy that more and more area riders are concious about the trails. I think Leb should be right on the edge of ok about now... it usually bounces back pretty quickly especially if it hasn't been too wet lately.

Let us know how it goes... :D

[socrates]

I always think if someone is cautious enough to post this type of thing, they are cautious enough to go out and give it a shot - stopping if its too wet, or riding along then coming back and posting an update if its ok ;)

Thanks for posting this... I really enjoy that more and more area riders are concious about the trails. I think Leb should be right on the edge of ok about now... it usually bounces back pretty quickly especially if it hasn't been too wet lately.

Let us know how it goes... :D
I was out at 5:30pm (Good Timing eh) trail was tacky, a few small puddles but ridable

[transplant]

It's about 7:30 Sunday AM. Did Leb get a lot of rain like White Bear Lake. Is it OK to ride or should I wait?

[gopherhockey]

A little over .10" of rain last night. Shouldn't be too bad this afternoon.

[EmL34]

I rode last night at 6. the traffic was light to moderate on the trail. The usual spots were soft, but it looks like riders are generally riding through them - not around them.

[berrywise]

I was planning on riding tonight at Leb and the forecast looked like the rain was going to hold off but now as I'm getting ready to leave it is raining here in St. Paul. Can anyone give me a heads up in the next ten minutes about the weather down there?

Thanks,
scott

[bigwheel]

Can anyone give me a heads up in the next ten minutes about the weather down there?
I just got back a couple minutes ago. The trail was dry, but it was sprinkling when I left. Looks like you might end up in the rain. The sky looks bad, but it is not pouring yet.

[berrywise]

Well I couldn't get ahold of the friend I was meeting there so I drove down anyway. The rain looked like it only got to about 494 before stopping. The trails were dry and we didn't have any sprinkles.

Didn't get as much distance in as I'd have liked because a rider in our group broke a chain a little ways in. Of course karma didn't go my way as I had helped a person on the trail awhile ago fix their chain because they didn't have a tool and then sold them the tool when he asked me about it later in the parking lot that night. So that meant I didn't have a mini tool on me. Luckily I was able to dig one out of the dumpster that is my back seat.


I just got back a couple minutes ago. The trail was dry, but it was sprinkling when I left. Looks like you might end up in the rain. The sky looks bad, but it is not pouring yet.

[Kosk]

Wednesday 8/25 at 4:30ish - Anybody that lives down there know if it is raining? Accuweather shows isolated rain right over the Leb area....dang.

[bigwheel]

Wednesday 8/25 at 4:30ish - Anybody that lives down there know if it is raining? Accuweather shows isolated rain right over the Leb area....dang.
I'm about 6 miles north of leb. Not raining here yet.

I'm heading over for a short ride, and try out Dream-II. If it is *really* isolated, I'll know in a little while.

[destrago]

Just got in from riding Leb. this morning (Thursday).

Details:
Looks like it got drizzled on, most everything is still in great shape, even X is dry. Opening of Intermediate is still bone dry. The field between DreamI and beginner is the only part that's even tacky.

Dream II is still extremely soft: ride with care. It's a lot of fun and a million times better than that ski trail. (Many thanks to Tim, Dale, John, and all the trail workers). The first part of it is already getting bumpy like the beginner loop, not sure if anything can be done about that. Overall the trail rules. My only concern/complaint is that the runout from the double jump (as someone (I think it might have been John) coined it: Dale's Gap) seems short and I've already heard people wondering if skidding is going to be a problem there.

Speaking of skidding, the restof the trail is good, except that the braking bumps on Dream I are developing into braking potholes and braking gorges of doom. *SIGH*

Two other things: perhaps my memory is going but is there a new tree down on the downhill section of intermediate just before the X splitoff? It's not on the trail, but I found myself ducking to miss it in a place I don't ever recall ducking before. Also, John, I noticed an orange fence just before the hillside rock garden in XX, is this in preparation for closing a section for working on the other jump I've been hearing rumors about?

-Tony

[bigwheel]

perhaps my memory is going but is there a new tree down on the downhill section of intermediate just before the X splitoff?
That tree was in the trail about a month ago, in an area where you are going fast and it catches you by surprise. Four guys did their best to drag it off of the trail, and ended up propping it up to get it out of the way.

Us taller guys have to watch our heads when we ride past it. Hopefully, we'll remember it is there if we start night riding.

Maybe, with the blessing of our trail boss, a couple of us can come back with a saw and get the sucker out of the way. My little camp saw isn't big enough, but I can bring a bow saw back from "up north" this weekend. I don't think a chain saw will be necessary.

[Trevize1138]

Hey!

I want my new Lebanon GPS map! I always keep the most current version of that map printed out and posted up in my cube at work. :cool:

[destrago]

Maybe, with the blessing of our trail boss, a couple of us can come back with a saw and get the sucker out of the way. My little camp saw isn't big enough, but
Yeah - my climb up and lean out technique only works on trees of about 4" or smaller diameter.

-Tony

[bigwheel]

Hey!

I want my new Lebanon GPS map! I always keep the most current version of that map printed out and posted up in my cube at work. :cool:
Next time it's too wet to ride, but not raining, I plan to walk the whole trail with my (old) GPS. When plotted on paper, the bread crumb trail makes a decent map.

I've also heard rumors that Dakota will be doing it for real this fall, complete with elevation info.

[gopherhockey]

Dakota will do one in the fall with their serious GPS equipment. I found that home grown GPS doesn't work until all leaves are off, and even then the pine trees will throw them off bigtime.

We also might have a line on someone from the U helping us GPS it on our own with better equipment and maps than are available to the average person. THIS would be the key to getting a decent new GPS map...

[bigwheel]

Yeah - my climb up and lean out technique only works on trees of about 4" or smaller diameter.

-Tony
On Tuesday, when I saw you up in that tree, and three people shaking it, I thought they had finally cornered the ToreyFerrett.

[KleinCrazy]

Dakota will do one in the fall with their serious GPS equipment. I found that home grown GPS doesn't work until all leaves are off, and even then the pine trees will throw them off bigtime.

We also might have a line on someone from the U helping us GPS it on our own with better equipment and maps than are available to the average person. THIS would be the key to getting a decent new GPS map...
John,

Talk to Pete McKinney from MOCA, he has been using some very nice software and maps for all our work at Theo.

James

[timmy]

Anyone know the condition of Leb? Any chance of riding it today?

[gopherhockey]

Anyone know the condition of Leb? Any chance of riding it today?
Should be fine - we haven't had much if any rain down here. Looks like it might start up soon though...

[bigwheel]

Well, I was wrong. (just got in a lap before the rain started) That's a new tree down just before the start of the X. The one I was talking about is the second one, just after Tony's Limbo Tree.

It's going to take more than a hand saw to get rid of that one. However, it's easy to see and duck under, for now.

[FSSS]

Anyone know the conditions at Leb??? I'm looking to ride it today.

[gopherhockey]

Anyone know the conditions at Leb??? I'm looking to ride it today.
Not too much rain last night, should be just fine to ride..

[IronRanger]

Not too much rain last night, should be just fine to ride..I rode today at noon. Trail is fine. There is a dead tree down on the easy trail just before the junction to the difficult. It is deceiving because it seems like you can ride under it, but you can't. It is on a downslope which makes it dangerous.

Also, met a couple riders who got tacks in their tires today. I didn't get any. They thought they got them in the new section that opened up this week that starts at the parking lot.

[destrago]

Also, met a couple riders who got tacks in their tires today. I didn't get any. They thought they got them in the new section that opened up this week that starts at the parking lot.

Hrrm - there were basically every possible hazard to tires at the end of the new section (glass, nails etc) but we cleaned them up pretty well. I know Bob was planning to run a magnet through there to be sure but we haven't gotten to do that yet. Sounds like its somethign we still need to do.

-Tony

[igor]

Sounds like this stuff was deliberately put there. That's not cool. Thanks for doing the work to clean it up.

[destrago]

Sounds like this stuff was deliberately put there. That's not cool. Thanks for doing the work to clean it up.
Not entirely intentionally. Someone had a tree house along the trail that John took out. Between nails from that and the beer bottles that it looks like they just chucked out when they were done with them, many tire hazards ended up where the trail now is. Right before the end of the new section you'll see the party stump: a tree stump covered in bottles and cans, all stuff that we found on the trail.


-Tony

[igor]

Good to know. I thought maybe some kids (I sound old now) might have been horsing around.

[ryno lite]

Yep, we cleaned a ton outta there and thought we got it all. The magnet should help.

[ryno lite]

Stopped and checked the area and cleaned up some debris. Picked up one large nail and 5 shards of glass. Looked pretty close on both my laps and that was all I saw. Hopefully there isn't anything more.

[bigwheel]

This weekend I remembered the magnet.

As Ryan mentioned, the problem area is near the end of the new section, where you take a sharp left around a big half-dead tree. There used to be a tree house there until gopherhockey tore it town. We picked up a *lot* of 1 inch roofing nails, but I doubt we got them all. There is also a lot of broken glass there. I''m pretty confident that it was nothing malicious.

Unfortunately, I think that as the bikes hit he area, more nails are going to "float" up.

I'll probably head over there on Tuesday with the magnet and a rake, and see what it finds.

[gopherhockey]

It should also be pointed out that no doubt some kids are not going to be all that happy that their tree fort was removed. They had obviously done some work on this, dragging quite a bit of wood out there. It wasn't in real great and stable condition so I don't know for sure if they were even using it - but I imagine kids will be kids and we might see some anger on their part.

I know when we removed the kids little drug hut where the Dream I exits out onto the open field I think we had some angry kids out there rolling rocks down off the trail for a few weeks until they got tired of it....

If you see kids roaming in that area, keep an eye out for em.

Bob - thanks for bringing the magnet! We'll get this area cleaned up in no time.

[grizzly adam]

Maybe we should have a stash of tubes in that tree in case people get lots of flats there.
OR
We could have a pay box and all "donations" go to MORC! he he

[cheese4brains]

Radar estimates show that Lebanon received <.20" rain last night. Does anyone that lives nearby know if that's close or not?

[grizzly adam]

That sounds about right. I live about 2 miles down Blackhawk and I head it raining last night as I was trying to sleep.

[destrago]

It definately rained at Leb last night - I don't know how much rain we got, but the roads were all still wet on my way into work this morning. I don't actually know how the trails will be.

-Tony

[gopherhockey]

I'd say by 5pm it would be fine to ride... I don't think the rain was heavy enough to cause issues. Enjoy your ride and let us know real conditions if you have a chance...

[IronRanger]

I rode at 1:00pm today. I couldn't believe it, the trail is dry and even dusty after last nights rain.

Saw bigwheel picking up the nails and tacks. Thanks man!

[bigwheel]

I rode at 1:00pm today. I couldn't believe it, the trail is dry and even dusty after last nights rain.

Saw bigwheel picking up the nails and tacks. Thanks man!
Thanks Bob, it was nice meeting you. As IronRanger said, the trail is surprisingly dry! Had I know that, I would have brought my bike. Anyway, I'm heading back out in a little while for a ride.

I didn't count, but will guess that the magnet found about 50 nails on or near the trail. Every time I raked it and ran the magnet over, It picked up another handful. I put the nails on the piece of plywood, behind the can/bottle stump. There was also quite a lot of glass chunks, which I just threw deeper into the woods. (sorry, but it would have taken forever to collect them all) I'll keep the magnet in town for the next few weeks, in case we start seeing them again.

Just for grins, I also brought the GPS along, and plotted the new section. It did a decent job, with about 50ft accuracy the whole way (good enough for a scribble map). One of these days, I'll try plotting the rest of the trail, and see what happens.

[gopherhockey]

Good job with the nails - and thanks!!

I'll drag a garbage bag out there one of these days and pick all that junk up...

[ryno lite]

You're the man Bob! I'm sure my tires will thank you on my night ride tonight!

[gopherhockey]

Big tree down on the upper bypass = gone. (and this one almost killed my chainsaw)

New one-step log in XX when exiting (used piece of the log Bob cut a few weeks back...)

A few rocks replaced in XX.

A few rocks placed on Dream II. Sign placed before the rock ride.

A small rock pile/drop before the double jump on Dream II. Should work at least until we get something better in there. The double jump has really been beat down - you can basically roll it now, so its no longer that big of a deal really.

Lebanon needs RAIN!!!!!!! Its very dry... almost not good for Dream II to be in that kind of shape. I'm afraid we're going to see bumps form where they might not have had it been less dry.

BTW: I will not be out at Lebanon tomorrow... there is no regular scheduled trailwork this week. If anyone shows up and wants to do something, walk Dream II and take down all the orange flags. We need to hunt some more logs to put where that one log was placed (downhill on Dream II) as well to help slow traffic in that area. Logs must be at least 7' long and solid enough to last. The old ski/gravel climb trail could use some junk thrown out onto it in random places to keep people off - I'm still seeing bike tracks on it, not sure why...

[ryno lite]

Thanks John, sure was nice to be out in the dark and not run into that tree on the bypass. Yeah, that quarter inch of rain really didn't do much on the new trail. Surprisingly some of the older parts, especially the X loop actually looked like they recieved rain and the new stuff looked like a desert! Thanks to Bob again for the nail removing, I finally felt safe enough around that bend to ride it instead of walk it!

[destrago]

So umm... yeah. First of all, it's freaking Arrakis out there... we definately need rain. I see what John is worried about on the DreamII bump issues.

John: New rocks on DreamII feel very good. The drop off before the double jump felt great, left me going the perfect speed to hit the jump, clear it, land, and turn without braking. Very nice! The new log on XX gave me quite a surprise. All of a sudden there was a log where there had never been a log before! I like it . . . was just very new to me!

Bob: I saw your stack of nails - Yowza - we could start a tube sales buisness in the parking lot and put those all back in! Glad we got those out of there - thanks. Once again you rock!

I'll be back down at Leb tomorrow and I think I'll start going through John's wishlist if any of it hasn't yet gotten done. I'll also bring some 3mil contractor bags down and do something about the bottles, nails etc. at the end of dream II and any of the glass I find along the way. So if you're riding leb tomorrow and you see a lonely guy in a trail work shirt in the new trail section shimmying up a tree(:Dfor those of you who know what I'm talking about), say hi! (and please don't hit me! )

-Tony

[nigel]

I'll be back down at Leb tomorrow and I think I'll start going through John's wishlist if any of it hasn't yet gotten done. I'll also bring some 3mil contractor bags down and do something about the bottles, nails etc. at the end of dream II and any of the glass I find along the way. So if you're riding leb tomorrow and you see a lonely guy in a trail work shirt in the new trail section shimmying up a tree(:Dfor those of you who know what I'm talking about), say hi! (and please don't hit me! )

-Tony
What time you going to be there? If im able to make it i'll give ya a hand.

[bigwheel]

Big tree down on the upper bypass = gone. (and this one almost killed my chainsaw)

New one-step log in XX when exiting (used piece of the log Bob cut a few weeks back...)

A few rocks replaced in XX.

A few rocks placed on Dream II. Sign placed before the rock ride.

A small rock pile/drop before the double jump on Dream II. Should work at least until we get something better in there. The double jump has really been beat down - you can basically roll it now, so its no longer that big of a deal really.

Looks great! Once again, 3 banannas and a smiley for John. :banana::banana::banana: :)

Thanks!!!

[destrago]

What time you going to be there? If im able to make it i'll give ya a hand.
I'll probably be down around 6:00ish and I'll just be walking the trail, so if you ride in a little after that you'll find me. Otherwise if you see me in the parking lot, I'll be wearing my MORC trail work shirt and black pants.

-Tony

[drakh]

I'll probably be down around 6:00ish and I'll just be walking the trail, so if you ride in a little after that you'll find me. Otherwise if you see me in the parking lot, I'll be wearing my MORC trail work shirt and black pants.

-Tony We're planning on riding there so we'll see if we can find you and run you up a tree or two. ;)

[destrago]

The word,

That was fun, but group trail work is a lot more fun. I entirely de-flagged DreamII, which means of course I'm sure I missed about 40 flags or so. If you see any, please stop and just take em out of there. I removed all trash that I found that was visible from the trail. This included all of the nails bob picked up and all of the bottles near the treehouse (damn there were a lot of them). I also cleaned up "water bottle alley" on the ski trail on my way back, added some roughage to the ski trail at places to make it REALLY unpleasant to ride. I think I hauled 50-60lbs of trash off that trail. Then I walked the beginner loop and removed trash from there - not a whole lot there, but I got rid of everything I found.

Thanks to everone who said hi along the way. Everyone but about 3 people said hi, a few people recognized me from trailwork or posts on here, and a few people thanked me for helping out. That was much appreciated, Thanks.

-Tony

[gopherhockey]

The word,

That was fun, but group trail work is a lot more fun. Holy! Great job... and thanks so much! What a huge help... group work is definitely more fun, but efforts from individuals can go a long way and can be kinda fun.

Thanks for your efforts! This means that 3 of us from the "regular" fall Leb trail crew went out this week alone and did a bit of (pre-approved) maintenance. I can say for sure that it helps me not burn out to carry that burdon alone.

[grizzly adam]

I saw you! My bike was the one makin' all the noise and I was much too embarrassed to stop or say more than "Hey".....sorry....
Thanks for being out there.

[Trevize1138]

Tony,

YOU DA MAN, DAWG!
:banana:

[bigwheel]

Tony, YOU DA MAN, DAWG! :banana:
Throw an extra biscuit in his dish.

Thanks, big guy.

[TML]

Thanks Tony,

I was out there last night as well. Said Hello the first time I went by then planned to introduce myself the next time around but I must have missed ya.

Thanks again for your efforts.

--TML

[socrates]

Hey John,

Where are those tubes located on the trail again? I managed to ride over something yesterday which made my tires stay inflated for 7.5 miles of a 10 ride

[destrago]

Dear All,
Let me start by thanking you for your comments. Let me preface this by saying that I am no longer upset, and that I realize from the get go, that the people I who made me upset in the first place very likely not reading this forum. I also apologize in advance for the length of this post.

That having been said I rode Lebanon today, 2 days after having walked through Dream II and picking up every flag and piece of trash I could see. At the beginning of dream II, before it even crosses the ski-trail were four beer cans. Not just strewn about by someone who was drinking and just chucked them, but hanging from branches in trees, intentionally and flagrantly displayed. Screaming for attention. They got mine. I was pissed.

As I rode on, thinking it through I realized that these were quite possibly put there by the creators of the treehouse, who are now pissed at us for having removed their happy underage drinking hole (I make this assumption because someone who is of age will not go to NEARLY this much work just for some miller lite).

I then recalled something John said to me the day I got stung by a bee while doing trail work. "Now you're going to really feel some ownership for these trails." Ownership, no. But definately pride at having been part of something great. And when someone flagrantly, and intentionally tries to ruin your hard work, it wasn't surprising that it bothered me. Then I realized that I should not be pissed, because that's what whoever put those cans up there wanted. Instead I walked out there at the end of my laps, took the cans out to the recycle bin, and felt good about myself.

On the ride home I though, "I've been doing trail work only since June of this year. I can't even imagine how Dale, Tim, John, and all the people who have been doing trail work for YEARS must feel about stuff like this." These people who have put literally thousands of hours of their lives into the dream of good trails right here in the metro area. In spite of those who intentionally damage and put try to ruin your hard work, you just smile, press on, and provide them with even better trails.

I smiled at the thought that although it takes a lot of work to build and maintain the trails, these people have done this on their own time and sweat. So thanks. Thanks.

Thanks.

To Dale, to Tim, To John. To all the people who did work years before I was here. To all the people who have been working for years, and to all the people just getting started. To the people who work on, and maintain all the other trails in the state. To all the people whose advocacy got us those trails in the first place. To the people who started MORC, who maintain MORC, and to the good community you have built. To you I say:

while(1)
{:banana:}

Thank you. You are an inspiration to me and a reminder that there are good, generous, and giving humans in the world.

And I'll see you at trail work.:)


- Tony

[FSSS]

Well said.

Unfortunately, that kind of ignorant behavior will always occur on public land - it belongs to everyone (you, me, and unfortunately, the nitwit too).

[gopherhockey]

Welcome to the joys and burdon of feeling that ownership. The only bad thing about putting volunteer effort into a trail is that a person does tend to take it personally. Public land or not, morons that are out there changing or removing signs, rolling rocks off the trail, or even skidding (especially on purpose) cost us all, but reflect strongly on those that have been out actually building and maintaining these trails.

You all have heard it from me many a time.. I think I've given up working at Lebanon maybe a dozen times this year only to be out there the next day. Thats the other bad thing, trail work and maintenance is addicting!

Really though there are so many more positive than negative aspects of helping out at your local trail. When I rode Dream II today a thousand and one pictures flashed before my eyes as I made my way up the trail.... if you would have seen my face you probably would have seen me smiling, then laughing... then smiling some more.

I remember Tim and I out flagging in the dead of winter.
I remember meeting with Dakota watching Dale and Tim in action hinting about this new trail.
I remember the day Dakota gave us the go-ahead.
I remember going out and trimming the trail... twice.
I remember having to help re-flag because someone tore down all our original markings during the winter.
I remember watching Tim and Dale walk the trail with IMBA and Dakota to tweak it to perfection.
I remember having both the smallest and largest trail crews ever at Lebanon during this trail construction.
I remember Tony and the rest of the crew running away from the bees...
I remember Bob feeling bad that he wouldn't make Saturday trail work.
I remember running out of tools for people to use because so many showed up to help out.
I remember watching Dale test pilot the new double jump. (complete with blood stains...)
I remember the last day when 2 machines and a pretty good sized crew basically finished off 1/3 the entire trail in one night just so we could open it up.
I remember the faces of each and every volunteer that has worked on the trail(s)... most if not all I now consider my friends.
Don't forget the famous Torreyferrit sightings!!!
I remember giving Erik his first orange shirt so he could help lead a crew.. also knowing a couple more dirt bosses were in the midst of our group.
I now think of a few guys out there cleaning up on their own.
I remember Dale cutting the flag to open the last major trail at Lebanon.....
And now I can start to build on those (and more) memories.

Seriously for all those that haven't yet, get out and help MORC build trails. In the years to come there will spring up more and more trails. We still have some work to do at Leb (some real fun enhancements) - we have Theo happening, Salem Hills coming up in October.. some new stuff at River Bottoms, some fixes at Battle Creek... and maybe soon Murphy and....

Tony, thanks for your comments.. very well said. It was a pleasure working on that trail with you and all the other volunteers. There is a lot more fun ahead!

[ryno lite]

Hey John, I've been meaning to ask you a question and keep forgetting to ask. The first day we started brushing the new Dream II we started the trail from the beginner trail. When I was back that weekend to ride, the new trail started right from the parking lot. Was a decision made to start the trail from the parking lot rather than a split from the beginner tail or are we going to eventually make a split from the beginner trail to the new Dream II so that a person riding multiple laps or starting from the beginner loop can transition to Dream II more easily by not having to come out in the parking lot. Just wondering. The idea changed in front of me and no one said why. The crew was small that day, so only a handful of us would remember.

[gopherhockey]

Good question. Early on we didn't open it all the way up to the parking lot just so people wouldn't see it and try riding it. The next week we finished it up since we actually opened it that day.

But - you are right, the plan was to eventually build a small loop from the end of the beginner into the beginning so one doesn't have to exit to the lot to do another round. We just never built that one. I think I just need to build a sign that can be clear enough to point out the exit is ahead, and another lap is to the left.... just so someone doesn't get lost out there just 10' from the parking lot ;)

This will be one of the small fixes/enhancements on our list of yet to build at Lebanon. We can probably just rake that section open once we have a sign ready.

I gave Tim & Dale my list of yet-to-be-fixed-or-added to Lebanon last week. Still a nice long list, but smaller tasks. A few new stunts, a few new smaller re-routes, and some maintenance. The new trails are basically done but we still have a lot more fun to go. :D


Hey John, I've been meaning to ask you a question and keep forgetting to ask. The first day we started brushing the new Dream II we started the trail from the beginner trail. When I was back that weekend to ride, the new trail started right from the parking lot. Was a decision made to start the trail from the parking lot rather than a split from the beginner tail or are we going to eventually make a split from the beginner trail to the new Dream II so that a person riding multiple laps or starting from the beginner loop can transition to Dream II more easily by not having to come out in the parking lot. Just wondering. The idea changed in front of me and no one said why. The crew was small that day, so only a handful of us would remember.

[gopherhockey]

Just left Leb around 4:30 - was coming down very heavy. Probably a good idea to cancel your Labor Day Leb plans. Looks like we'll get quite a nice shot of rain according to the radar. We need it!

[gopherhockey]

Didn't get as much rain as I thought, but it still looks like over 1.5" fell yesterday and last night.

The trail was already pretty dusty... might be ok later today.

If anyone was out there let us know how it is. My guess is much of it is already drying up, but there are the usual low spots with standing water & mud.

[socrates]

Didn't get as much rain as I thought, but it still looks like over 1.5" fell yesterday and last night.

The trail was already pretty dusty... might be ok later today.

If anyone was out there let us know how it is. My guess is much of it is already drying up, but there are the usual low spots with standing water & mud.
I was out around 1pm....a total of 1 puddle (in lower X loop) and 2 mud holes (in upper X loop and beginner trail) otherwise trail was DRY!

[gopherhockey]

I was out around 1pm....a total of 1 puddle (in lower X loop) and 2 mud holes (in upper X loop and beginner trail) otherwise trail was DRY!
I believe the trail was in better shape today than it was the previous. There is something about harder rains that seem to pack the trail down and not soak in like a slower rain will.

Rode tonight, its in great shape! My first Lebanon night ride of the year.

Beware of a fallen tree on the Intermediate Bypass (the trail leading around to Dream I, skipping the expert loop) - its in a really bad spot, you'll be on your brakes hard to stop in time if you aren't watching for it.

Once my chains are nice and sharp again (thanks Tim!) I'll head out and remove it. Could probably use the logs for something on Dream I...

[FSSS]

Could probably use the logs for something on Dream I...
The biggest darn log pile this side of the rockies?? :D

[ryno lite]

The rain sure shaped up the new entrance! Sure was in great shape tonight for a night ride! Had the whole place to myself. Probably first time all year!

[f16xelecx]

I was out on Sunday while it was raining hard (Bad I know, I felt guilty, don't shoot me, okay maybe just in the leg) But it was actually very interesting. Since the trail was so hard packed, none of the rain was soaking in. It was actually like riding on smooth concrete with a very thin slippery layer of mud. On the dream trail I tried to turn to hard and my wheels slipped out from underneath me and I slid on my side for about a dozen feet because the trail was so smooth. It was like a slip and slide. It was interesting to see how the rain did sheet off and the trail really wasn't affected by it much.

[gopherhockey]

The log that fell over the Intermediate bypass has now been removed.

And in the XX loop just one comment.... log stairs II.... :p

(when mother nature provides, who are we to say no thank you)

[thebionicman]

The log that fell over the Intermediate bypass has now been removed.

And in the XX loop just one comment.... log stairs II.... :p

(when mother nature provides, who are we to say no thank you)
Does that mean we have GOOD WOOD?

That is going to be pretty cool if we can do a set of log stair/corduroy on the short downhill to see how that is going to work.

[SPR]

...And in the XX loop just one comment.... log stairs II.... :pOh John you do like to torture us :crazy:. Rode the trail this morning and came across your handy work. It just made for more effort to get up that particular hill. Good job :crazy2:.
Side note about the gate, I was there at 9:00am and the gate was closed. What's up with that? I know this issue has been around on the forums enough.
Anyhow I parked in the tennis court lot north of the trail. For any of you BMX types there's a BMX course built inside the hockey rink with a what looked like a few table tops. Would have ridden it but was tired from riding John's latest project.

[socrates]

The log that fell over the Intermediate bypass has now been removed.

And in the XX loop just one comment.... log stairs II.... :p

(when mother nature provides, who are we to say no thank you)
FYI IMO the last "log stairs II" needs to be dug alittle deeper on the left side (my chain ring hit it the first time around this morning)

[gopherhockey]

Are you saying it doesn't flow or isn't easy enough for you? ;)

Yea, its probably not good to have chainrings dig into those logs - they are very solid oak, but chainring marks start to cut away at them. There is on on Log Stairs II like that - almost the whole middle of the log is gone.

Those things are always a work in progress. After the first rain I'm going to have to go back out and pack some new dirt in. I also find areas where people will cheat to get around them. I'll go back in later once people have ridden em' for a while and fix.

The rock garden now has a simple line through it as well - gotta dig a rock or two into the path that is forming to make it challenging again.

FYI IMO the last "log stairs II" needs to be dug alittle deeper on the left side (my chain ring hit it the first time around this morning)

[socrates]

Are you saying it doesn't flow or isn't easy enough for you? ;)

Yea, its probably not good to have chainrings dig into those logs - they are very solid oak, but chainring marks start to cut away at them. There is on on Log Stairs II like that - almost the whole middle of the log is gone.

Those things are always a work in progress. After the first rain I'm going to have to go back out and pack some new dirt in. I also find areas where people will cheat to get around them. I'll go back in later once people have ridden em' for a while and fix.

The rock garden now has a simple line through it as well - gotta dig a rock or two into the path that is forming to make it challenging again.I dunno why, but when we chatted yesterday (while you were doing the work out there) I just assumed you were adding 1 step :) so it did catch me alittle off guard but it flowed ok, and I was pretty left of the line to hit the log with the chain ring but I can see people doing it.......but unlike the "log haters" out there I say KEEP'M COMING!

let me know when you're going back out and I'll try to help ya

PS the revised rock garden in the climbout isn't difficult enough...more rocks please :D

[gopherhockey]

PS the revised rock garden in the climbout isn't difficult enough...more rocks please :D
Yes, that area definitely needs some more rocks. Consider it on the to-do list.

[SPR]

I thought the logs flowed well and I had no problems with my chainrings hitting the logs. Just my 2 cents. :)

[gopherhockey]

I thought the logs flowed well and I had no problems with my chainrings hitting the logs. Just my 2 cents. :)I just rode them 3 times tonight and didn't hit at all either, but did see some marks. I think we'll probably be ok, but when we get some rain and the dirt starts to pack I'll go back in and make sure its built up correctly. These logs are a bit larger than Stairs 1, but I felt they actually rode better.

[grizzly adam]

How are the trails after the rain? I can't tell how much we got. I checked the Trail Conditions page and it said it was dry as of Sunday the 12th.

[socrates]

How are the trails after the rain? I can't tell how much we got. I checked the Trail Conditions page and it said it was dry as of Sunday the 12th.
Hey...were you at LH on Sunday...I passed a man and woman in the X loops and about 30 secs later I realized it looked like you

[grizzly adam]

Nope, not me. I was doing the St. Paul Classic Sunday.

[cheese4brains]

How are the trails after the rain? I can't tell how much we got. I checked the Trail Conditions page and it said it was dry as of Sunday the 12th.
The NWS has radar estimates:

http://www.crh.noaa.gov/radar/latest/DS.80stp/si.kmpx.shtml

Looks like 0.5-1.0" for Lebanon. It was bone dry yesterday, so it'll be interesting to see how quickly the trail recovers.

More rain coming in for this afternoon, tho, and more forecast for tonight.

[socrates]

Nope, not me. I was doing the St. Paul Classic Sunday.
Then I'm glad I didn't wait for them to catch up to see if it was you :) (But I did say Hi to them...as I do everyone out there)

[ryno lite]

Got an inch already in Mpls and more coming! Should dry out though with great weather Thurs-Sun.

[Tim Wegner]

Looks like we got almost 2 inches as of Wed AM here in Apple Valley. Leb will be muddy for a few days after this moves on.

TW

[gopherhockey]

Looks like we got almost 2 inches as of Wed AM here in Apple Valley. Leb will be muddy for a few days after this moves on.

TW
Yes, hopefully now that we're all remembering how to drive in rain (seems like a few forgot this morning..) bikers will remember to stay off after a long shower like this. If not, we'll have Dakota close the park down for a few days like we did this spring. Probably a good 24 hours of sun after it stops at a minimum...

[socrates]

Yes, hopefully now that we're all remembering how to drive in rain (seems like a few forgot this morning..) bikers will remember to stay off after a long shower like this. If not, we'll have Dakota close the park down for a few days like we did this spring. Probably a good 24 hours of sun after it stops at a minimum...
I think it's