Trail Conditions in Detail - Lebanon Hills

[tkb608]

Didn't rain here in the city yesterday, looking sunny today. Is it going to be ridable today?

[gopherhockey]

Didn't rain here in the city yesterday, looking sunny today. Is it going to be ridable today?
I'm guessing the trail should be good today... I'm hoping to sneak out this afternoon to try the new elevated section in the XX.

The X and XX were temporarily closed yesterday for both being wet and because we had a large trail crew out there. I will open this back up today as well. We don't normally "micro-manage" trail conditions like that, but when I walked into the X loop yesterday riders had been cutting between trails to get around wet spots. Of all things Dakota will nail us on, its cutting the trail... if its so wet people have to do that they shouldn't be out there. A couple of riders had been out there last weekend that should have known better... (but what else is new...) :eyeroll:

On a good note, we did not see one rider poaching the XX loop yesterday while it was closed... often riders ignore trail closed signs, but yesterday those that were out stuck to the open trails. I really appreciate that if any of you are reading this... :D

[bkyatty]

I don't know if this question should be in this forum but here goes. I was at the leb for my first time 2 weeks ago and loved it. I took the usual course straight up the hill and then onto the y where you turn to the expert and expert advanced section. Once i got to the next y to turn left into the expert advanced and right to the expert, I did the expert trail and continued. My question is how much harder in the expert advanced than the expert trails? I didn't have any problems (other than lack of oxygen) on the expert. I just don't want to push my bike more than I will ride it. Also is the XX trail the expert advanced? Please advise.

[noise_is_life]

Aerobically XX (Expert Advanced) is no more difficult that the expert. There are some bigger and sketchier log crossings and some other tougher obstacles. All of the most difficult stuff (bridges, teeter, rock drop) have bypass trails if you don't feel confident about doing them.

[gopherhockey]

Aerobically XX (Expert Advanced) is no more difficult that the expert. There are some bigger and sketchier log crossings and some other tougher obstacles. All of the most difficult stuff (bridges, teeter, rock drop) have bypass trails if you don't feel confident about doing them.This is very accurate. XX by our standards at Lebanon doesn't necessarily conform to XX in other areas... like what they call "Expert Unlimited" or double-black diamond (or XX) in Whistler means high risk riding - consequences of errors may be severe and rescue might be difficult types of situations.

For us we measure on the grade of the trail but also how a trail is set up as opposed to another. I think it was the man-made obstacles in the XX that gave it more of an advanced label... but for much of it if you ride it a certain way it is no more difficult than the X, if not actually easier in many ways.

Giving some reason behind our trail grading is something I want to do eventually to help clarify this type of thing not only at Leb but in other MORC parks.

Saying all that, there is probably more potential to get hurt in the XX than the X, and we always suggest being comfortable in the X before moving on to the XX. Often we see people that can't hardly make it to the XX entrance, then ducking in because it looks fun.... those are the people that will get hurt because they will tend to ride over their heads.

I should also add that being labeled advanced expert or XX gives us more flexibility on how and where we place things. Riders should consider that anything is possible and caution signs may or may not be a given. That rock garden you are used too may change at any given moment to add interest and challenge - so whenever a person rides a trail regardless of prior experience they should always be prepared... ;)

[BrightYellow]

those are the people that will get hurt because they will tend to ride over their heads
You can tell who these people are because they have wheel marks on their face...

[gopherhockey]

The trail is drying out nicely - get out and ride!

Be a little careful on the new obstacle - you need to get a run at it, but its a little wet prior to the first boards so I slipped my back tire the first two times I tried it.

The skinny is hard to get on without dropping your back tire - need more feedback, but it should probably be fixed.

I opened up the "top of the bypass" which is quite sticky but I want to see it get packed in... of course the minute I opened it the rain clouds started to form... :hit:

[ryno lite]

Yep, it's near midnight and it's pouring rain and thundering, I guess the trail dried up just in time to get rained on again! No matter for me, cause I'm moving and don't have time to ride for the next few days anyway, hopefully by the time I'm done moving it will be dry!

[gopherhockey]

Dang rain! I bet it only rained because I re-opened up the new bypass section... which is probably a mess right now. Hope we get a chance to dry out again before the next rain. :mad: :mad:

[EmL34]

Be a little careful on the new obstacle - you need to get a run at it, but its a little wet prior to the first boards so I slipped my back tire the first two times I tried it.

Yes, I concur. Get some speed going - it'll be easier when things dry out. I fell off the ramp just as I was getting to the top. It was a fun crash though, and another scar to add to the collection.

[noise_is_life]

Yes, I concur. Get some speed going - it'll be easier when things dry out. I fell off the ramp just as I was getting to the top. It was a fun crash though, and another scar to add to the collection.
That's quite a height fall from and a nice soft log at the bottom, ouch.

[gopherhockey]

Yes, I concur. Get some speed going - it'll be easier when things dry out. I fell off the ramp just as I was getting to the top. It was a fun crash though, and another scar to add to the collection.
This one is really different than the one in the X loop. You can't just coast up it and grab a tree if needed.. there is no way off it but to fall off it really.

Having only been up it twice I'm no expert, but it felt like my back wheel slipped right away when I got on it - this I attribute to the wet conditions, but it could be due to improper balance going into the obstacle. I stood the whole way (don't see how you could sit and ride it). When I got to the top it looks like its all gravy from there, but it didn't seem to be. You still have to be straight going into the downhill part or you can go right off the edge. I had to pedal all the way over and felt like I hit my pedal at the top as I started down the other side. (when my front wheel was on one side and back wheel was on another, your chainring is a lot closer to the boards)

[gravityjunkie]

I am very impressed by the new stunt placed in the XX loop. It is very "North Shore" style but with very low risk. Great for practice.

I tried to ride it yesterday but my back tire slipped out. Perhaps we should place some grip-tape on the ramp. I think that this is common on the North Shore since it rains up there so much.

I did set my bike on the flat section and rode the skinny. I didn't have any problem with my back tire falling off at the split.

Nice little drop on the end! Thanks Morc, you have just taken local trailbuilding up another notch!

Rodger Bradford

[Ish]

I tried to ride it yesterday but my back tire slipped out.
Sounds like it will be much easier to ride this thing in the winter with my Nokian studded tires :D

[soupboy]

Going to be moving the next several days so no bike time. Would be fun to see what new treats await.

Sean

[noise_is_life]

Here's one, there's more in the gallery:

http://www.morcmtb.org/photopost/data/505/1lebwork052504_009.jpg

[soupboy]

...is that a replacement for the log crossing after the 2nd bridge. Looks like fun.

Sean

[nigel]

...is that a replacement for the log crossing after the 2nd bridge. Looks like fun.

Sean
Its actually right next to the "log over", its a choice, the old one is still there but prolly wont get much use since this is there.

D

[JHM]

Here's one, there's more in the gallery:


I'm not going to fall for this one. I can see those guys hiding behind the trees on the right side, just waiting to push you off line. Stay to the left or be ready to defend yourself!

[gopherhockey]

I'm not going to fall for this one. I can see those guys hiding behind the trees on the right side, just waiting to push you off line. Stay to the left or be ready to defend yourself!
Yes, thats all a part of the obstacle... those guys promised to camp out all summer long. In the fall there are 2 guys slated to replace them. ;)

[gopherhockey]

I was out walking the trail this morning doing some puddle fixing in prep for what looks like more rain on the way.

Its damp out there. Wet in some spots - the X loop as usual. The new trail just before the X loop starts is fresh and damp and should be ridden with caution. Its right on the edge right now - any more rain and we'll have to close it up again for a while. I'm hoping to get it packed in though so it can withstand the rains and we can eventually close down the old rocky ski downhill section.

[BrightYellow]

Rode the trail this morning and it was still a little damp. I'd say 98% of the trail was just fine, but there are a couple of actual puddles in the beginner section and in the X section. I was hoping it would be in better condition than it was.

I don't know what the official word is on riding where there are some puddles on the trail, but my advice is to take the whole trail very slow and do not go around the damp/wet sections, widening the trail. Maybe it will all be nice this afternoon.

I wanted to update the trail condtions with "damp", but it kept erroring out on me. I don't know what's up with that.

Also, the new stunt is great. Since no one else was out there, we had a chance to ride it a few times. Definitely tricky to stay on when going from the wide to the skinny, but doable. I hope it stays it just like it is, since the challenge factor is really there. Well, maybe some of that paint with the sand in it, for the climb up. It is easy to lose traction.

[gopherhockey]

I don't know what the official word is on riding where there are some puddles on the trail, but my advice is to take the whole trail very slow and do not go around the damp/wet sections, widening the trail. Maybe it will all be nice this afternoon.

He is totally correct - if you see a puddle, ride straight through it, not around it. It helps us keep the trail to regular singletrack width as you mentioned... I hope that people understand that if they are out there and there are puddles its wet and they chose to ride when wet, so they should have to suffer through the wet ;)

The only exception might be when the lower edge of a trail pools up a bit - sometimes you can sneak by above without causing trail creep. If you can't get around it while staying on the obvious trail then go through it.

Conditions like this are not optimal, but with rain every other day we have to fight to ride when we can and balance that with conditions. If people insist on riding when its marginal just ride slower.

I'm interested in why you couldn't update the conditions - I was hoping to get more and more people to start doing it and/or I'm surprised I'm the only one updating the Lebanon conditions... PM me with the error you see and we'll fix that. (same goes for anyone else)

[syntaxjunkie]

just had my first ride of the season at leb this afternoon. let's see, what's the word i'm looking for...

LOVE

i 'm not crazy about capital letters in general, and i hardly ever type an entire word in them, so this is serious. the dream trail? flat-out amazing. gives the whole trail a nice balance of work and reward, and finishes (in my humble opinion) with more flourish than the ol' breakneck white-knuckle doubletrack roller coaster we all knew and loved.

parts of the trail--especially the new ones--were a little soft and sticky, but that didn't come close to wiping the smile off of my face. when the whole thing drys out, hang on to your chamois--it's going to be a rocket ride.

NICE FREAKIN' WORK, FOLKS.

p.s.: john, i think i said hi to you out there this afternoon in the parking lot around 3:30. i was the guy in the silver helmet and blue shirt with a leg over a trek fuel 100, impatiently waiting for my friend to show up. lucky you to live so close to this masterpiece.

[gopherhockey]

NICE FREAKIN' WORK, FOLKS.

p.s.: john, i think i said hi to you out there this afternoon in the parking lot around 3:30. i was the guy in the silver helmet and blue shirt with a leg over a trek fuel 100, impatiently waiting for my friend to show up. lucky you to live so close to this masterpiece.
Thanks for the great comments.. and yup, I remember ya out there. I really enjoy meeting and seeing more and more of everyone out at the trail. Its fun to build this type of biking community. I hope I get a chance to ride with each and every one of you someday.

Looks like another chance of rain tonight... everyone do your anti-rain chants and whatnot... lets hope it passes us by this time around. We need a week of dry dry dry...

[ryno lite]

Uggh!!!!!!!! It's 1 am and it's pouring rain again! Looks to be a washed out holiday weekend! Are we ever going to dry out a bit?

[noise_is_life]

5am and it's still dumping here in SLP and it's been doing it for a while.

Oh well, everyone try to enjoy the weekend.

[gopherhockey]

I'm really really tired of rain.... :cryin:

[syntaxjunkie]

9:00 a.m. and pissing mightily in south minneapolis. the novelty has indeed worn off.

[ryno lite]

I'm sick of it also, I'd sure like the chance to try the new bypass and stunt that were put in.

[goatgirl]

Shoulda gone out last night! The new "stunt" is awesome. How far do you think one would have to drive this weekend to find dry ground? I'm willing.:geek:

[socrates]

Shoulda gone out last night! The new "stunt" is awesome. How far do you think one would have to drive this weekend to find dry ground? I'm willing.:geek:
High of 89 today and low of 75 today at PBI with no rain in sight until Friday...just wish I was there (some good trails in the area too)

http://www.intellicast.com/Local/USLocalStd.asp?loc=kpbi&seg=LocalWeather&prodgrp=Forecasts&product=Forecast&prodnav=none&pid=none

[gopherhockey]

I walked out on the trails hoping somehow we'd be close to recovery. Things are worse than I've ever seen at this time of year... they are basically spring conditions. Places I have fallen before that were hard as a rock I was sinking in just standing there. Puddles aren't the issue any longer, its all wet and muddy.

I closed down the X and XX loops as well as the newest bypass trail. The outer loop will likely recover quicker, but I'm guessing mid week for the others. I did some draining of nasty water spots but it was pretty futile. If this keeps up we'll have to start building more boardwalks in the X over some of those really bad spots.

I was happy to see no fresh tracks today. I figured as usual someone would be out there 2 minutes after the rain... I'm pleased that people seem to be caring more about the trails.

I'm guessing Leb is done for the entire weekend.

[socrates]

I'm guessing Leb is done for the entire weekend.
:cryin: I haven't been able to get out there in over 7 days now

[ryno lite]

Another half inch overnight last night. I've had 4 inches the past 10 days at my place near Lake Nokomis in MPLS. This sucks! I'm done moving and ready to ride!!!!! Come on sun and dry!!!!!!!!!!!!

[KleinCrazy]

Glad to hear your all moved Ryan.


You should have slacked off and come out for a couple of laps Friday afternoon/evening.

The riding was quite nice.

I would have to guess, looking at the forcast. that the first day that Lebanon SHOULD be riden would be Thursday or Friday.

Break out that road bike :(

[ryno lite]

Yeah, nice to be moved, I'm currently cleaning the old pad. Kinda sucks (2 guys living in the same place for 5.5 years can make a big mess! Glad my girlfriend is helping us!). Almost done cleaning though. Now I'll be stuck without cable internet for a few days, which also sucks! Oh well, it will take a while to catch up on everything. Anyway, I'll be checking back in a few days! By then hopefully it will be dry and I can see you guys on the trail rather than online.

[Tim Wegner]

Well it appears that you can not keep people off of the trails. What a bunch of idiots!!! Rutted trails at Lebanon since about 12+ riders rode there this afternoon. John Lundell said he spoke with one of the riders and the rider said "ya it was so muddy at Lebanon that we went and rode at Terrace Oaks first and then came back here to ride the trails."

Sometimes it makes you wonder if all the work we put in to the trails is really worth it when you have a group of people with that kind of attitude. What the hell 4" of rain and they are out riding the trails. I hope their cables and everything on their bikes that is not aluminum rust solid!!

I do not understand that type of attitude--maybe someone out there can explain it to me or recommend a way to keep people off the trails. (John already had the yellow caution tape across the trail entrances) Education may help with some of them but if you don't reach the 12 that ride no matter what the conditions they will ruin the trail or create a ton of repair work for the trail crew.

TW

[gopherhockey]

I really struggle with days like today. I woke up not even wanting to go over to the parking lot because I knew I'd see people riding. The minute the sun came out today I knew people would head on over there.... the problem is I can sense that urge to get out and ride once the sun is out and the pavement appears dry. Its almost like I forget that we just endured countless rains - what I see is dry pavement and the sun. But.. I also know what it does to the trails (not to mention my bike) so I resist.

I do understand that not everyone thinks about the trails first thing like many of us do... or even at all. We've all grown up riding our bikes through water puddles thinking it was fun. Yes, some of our parents probably scolded us that we're ruining our bikes doing that - but nobody ever told me as a kid that I was actually doing harm to the area I was riding on... so if a person is basing their decision to ride on their ability and their own risk of damaging their bike I get a little less upset - OR - I get more upset at myself because I can't seem to find a way to get the word out to more people.

I know we need a better trailhead sign. Thats something I am working on. However - will this still stop people? As Tim said I think there will always be that one or two or even a dozen that just don't care. Mountain biking is all about themselves... they probably don't see the trail work crew out there in the hot buggy humid evenings fixing and building the trail when they make their choice to ride..

I've said it before - Mountain bikers as a whole I believe are very selfish people. We buy our bikes so we can escape the every day grind... to get out and be one with nature. We base our decisions on the information at hand but when all is said and done its our decision to make and if one of us wants to ride a closed trail - heck, whats to stop us...

When I sit in meetings where horse riders are calling us names I feel angry because I know that my friends (those of you reading this) are just not that way. We are more responsible... but there are soooo many that are not. When I think of the people riding out on the trails this afternoon I see why people hate us, and I tend to start wondering why I would feel angry when hikers or horse riders are able to keep us off their land.... and even then you have to know that there are mountain bikers out there riding on non-mountain biking trails all the same.

What I do when I'm out there working on the trail is for all of you that read this and have made the choice to stay off not just Lebanon but other local trails... have sacrificed their long weekend ride plans for a road ride or a workout at the local gym. Those who have been out to help out, and those who have joined MORC. If I were to think of the dozen people out on the trials today alone I would quit working at Lebanon starting right now.

What I need to do is to find out what keeps me going or I could easily lose the battle against these random uneducated riders.

[gopherhockey]

Here is a picture of part of the beginner loop... a part that actually always drains well - an uphill section. Looks at the conditions AND the rider damage... what will this trail look like once it dries up and what will the rest of Lebanon look like?


http://www.morcmtb.org/images/temp/lebwet007s.jpg


Here is that nasty wet spot that was in the beginner loop even last Friday while we were all doing laps. Check out the damage due to riders trying to go out around it... look at how it has gotten wider. What do you think we'll be doing next at Lebanon - building fun new trails and obstacles, or working to fix this kind of stupidity... and do you think the land managers thing highly of mountain bikers when this happens?

http://www.morcmtb.org/images/temp/lebwet006s.jpg

[zerpy]

So I was driving by today shortly after noon and saw a grop of riders coming out of the trails and had some unfriendly words about them ignoring the fact that the trail was closed. Hind site being 20/20 a calmer explanation would prob been better, but I was pissed...

[KleinCrazy]

And people wonder why it is muddy.....


From the National Weather Service

"According the climate records for the Twin Cities it has rained 10 days in a row. For the month of May the total rainfall now stand at 6.04 inches. Almost 3 inches above normal. And were not done with the month yet."

I have had a sign Idea I am discussing with John, we will keep you posted.

Does Dakota have fines for riding on closed trails?

[ruppeb]

This is my first time posting in the forum. I also just joined MORC this past March, but I have been reading the posts in the forums and the information on your website for close to 2 years prior to joining. If it was not for your organization I don't know if I would have ever gotten off my ass and used my mountain bike for what it was intended. With that being said.....I FEEL ALL OF YOUR PAIN!!!

I have yet to even get out to Lebanon this year, mainly because of all the housework I have been doing, but also because of all the rain. I would have never given wet, muddy trails a second thought if it weren't for all that I have read and learned from your website. It also makes me really PISSED OFF that while I have been patiently waiting for the right, DRY time to hit the trail, others seem to think otherwise. While I think something else needs to be done at the trail with signs, tape, even perhaps fines and tickets, I also think getting the word out about MORC and educating as many riders as possible should also be part of it.

You all do great work and I am glad to be supporting your efforts!

[Don Youngdahl]

This may sound a bit draconian, but is Dakota County interested in passing an ordinance that would close the park to riding trail after rain, and would they care enough to push the Dakota County Sheriff Dept. and Apple Valley Police to give it the necessary enforcement attention?

A large sign with a hinged flap that would be placed in the "open" or "closed" position should be used, regardless of whether or not we get closure by an ordinance.

I realize a "wet conditions" closure ordinance may well result in the park frequently being unnecessarily closed after light rains or in good drying conditions, butthese closures may be the price we have to pay to curtail the damage that occurs with the present situation.

I'm pessimistic about successfully keeping riders off with education alone, because there are so many new riders and casual riders that are very hard to reach with educational efforts.

If there were an ordinance, and a few fines for riding closed trails, the word would get around better than our best educational efforts. This opinion is based on our experience with the off-road sticker for dirt bikes. Lots of people were ingnorant of the requirement, until enforcement started. Somehow, after tickets started gettin written, word-of-mouth got around pretty quickly that you needed a registration sticker to ride on public lands.

Don Youngdahl

[syntaxjunkie]

given the choice between "occasional overenforced closures" and "closed altogether," i'd advocate the former pretty strenuously.

and while a sign alone won't keep the occasional roving pack of idiots from riding on waterlogged trails, it does send a message that bikers--or at least a group of concerned bikers--care enough about the trails and the land they sit on to try to protect them.

if people understand that it's fellow bikers and not just some overzealous park nazi telling them to stay off the trails when they're wet, maybe, just maybe, a few more of them will think twice.

perhaps it's naive on my part to think this'll matter. but like most of you, i like to think of bikers as a little more enlightened than the average bear when it comes to the environment. and i certainly wouldn't being proved right for a change.

[SickBoy]

I've come to notice as well that, by en large, it's not the people who participate/read this forum that are the problem. Let's face it, there are a lot of people out there who have never heard of MORC. My first contact with MORC was through Dennis Porter and other people I knew from the racing scene.

Maybe we're looking at this all wrong. I could be mistaken but I'm pretty sure that about 75-80% of the people who ride Lebanon regularly DON'T race.

As an organization, how do we communicate with the riding community? Races are a good way and have been effective thus far. Putting up a few signs is somewhat impersonal. Passing ordinances to allow DCP and Police the authority to issue tickets is only marginally more effective. Bottom line is I think we need to do some creative thinking to touch base with more of the general off road riding community than we currently are, because I see this needless trail destruction as a communication issue.

Do I have the solution? No. I'm just suggesting that a lot of people may be learning about or coming in contact with MORC due to the racing scene. What I do think is that maybe we should think about ways to reach out into the general community more. The Nature Valley Grand Prix is coming up. There are a lot of people who don't race who were downtown last year to watch that race. That'd be a good starting point - a few smiling faces talking about the topic of off road biking in MN. With the Wirth/Mayor Rybak thing going on, there could be other avenues there. All we need to do is get the word out. I realize MORC has grown by leaps and bounds in the last year but we need to think more about how we're reaching the community, now that we're responsible for this community asset we've created.

[gopherhockey]

My observations from today as I was sitting in the parking lot most the morning and afternoon:

I caution-taped and closed-signed up the trails this morning when the park opened. When I went back around 10 there were no cars parked in the lot and no fresh tracks on the trail. Slowly through the rest of the day people came and went.. some drove by and drove out. Some didn't see the signs until they had their bikes out and were ready to ride. Many left with an extra heavy foot on the pedal in displeasure.. some I talked too just didn't understand no matter what I said.

It was the younger ones that were the worst by far. The teens or early 20s had absolutely no clue and were willing to even pass under the caution tape to get in their ride. I don't want to get into a grouping thing but it appeared that maturity definitely played a part in how people reacted today. I flat out saw a couple guys planning to ride anyway until they saw me.. and even then they slowly checked things out (probably wondering who I was).

Nobody crossed the line while I was there though... but if I had not been there no doubt there would have been a dozen or so more riders on the trails.

This definitely requires some creative thinking... and maybe applying all of the suggestions given so far in some shape or form. I know for sure we need a better trailhead sign that looks more official and inviting. Everyone that rides at Lebanon should WANT to write down our web site and go check it out. None of those that saw the trail closed signs appeared to care about the web site address.

Getting the word out definitely would help. Maybe we need some more media attention or perhaps even some advertisement or something.

I gotta go get a workout before I head back out to the parking lot again to play bad cop. :fool: :p

[fuel80]

Could a sign be attached to the "Mountain Biking" sign at the entrance of Lebanon stating that the trails are clsed due to poor trail conditions? At least those driving in will be notified before unloading their bikes. Is there information posted on the trail map board indicating to contact www.morcmtb.org (http://www.morcmtb.org) for current trail conditions?

I went running by the trails around noon and saw a 3-4 cars in the parking lot - could've been hikers. I did see 6 or so young mountain bikers go into the camp ground. I don't know if they were going onto the hiking trails or back to camp.

[nigel]

I walked the bike trails today whilst John L was being the mean guy to folks in the lot.........Spent 2 hours wandering all the sections and not one person was seen! Thats a good thing, guess people are starting to pay attention to caution tape and such.

Beginner trail-----tons o' damage, lots of mud puddles that folks are going around and not through

Intermediate trail-----not too bad, but did have a few yucky spots mainly on corners and after the roots and such

New section, the one that crosses the old "tripple" uphill----Wet but held up nicely, cept quite a few deer tracks, guess they cant read tho, so its ok

X Loop-----LOTS of standing water all over!! This trail took the worst of it all, stay off even after its gets nice for a while!

XX Loop----Best condition of em all, actually 100% ridable, just cant get to it without ruining other sections is all

Intermediate out-----Not too bad either, a few spots here and there, id say its second to the xx condition-wise

Id post some of the pics i took but cant figure out how to get em to show on my post sooooooooooo.......check out the ones that John posted, mine are similar just further in the trails, and there are some really bad spots in there!

Douglas

[gopherhockey]

Doug - excellent re-cap!

This from the national weather service:

Finally, low pressure stuck over the Red River Valley is starting to move. If you can endure one more day of mainly cloudy skies and occasional showers, there is an end to this wet weather story. High pressure developing over of the central Rockies Tuesday will start pushing east into the Northern Plains Tuesday tonight. This will force the area of low pressure to start moving. As it moves slowly east, clouds and showers will be on the decrease. By Wednesday, high pressure will be centered over the Northern Plains. The drier air coming in with this system will erode the remaining clouds over Minnesota and Wisconsin during the day. High temperatures Wednesday will pop back into the upper 60s. Thursday looks to be a winner. It will be partly cloudy, the winds will be rather light from the south and the temps will be in the lower to mid-70s.
:banana:

Lets hope we're done after tomorrow, things dry up so that right around Friday we have excellent conditions...

[zerpy]

Hey, why don't we track down the trail poachers and then when they are off at work sneak into their place and install windoze on their computer?!? Wow, they'd be screwed then....


Oh no, did I geek out again?....:crazy:

I still like the idea of a paint ball gun with a motion sensor set at average head height...

Sorry I don't have any good suggestions. We can't really camp someone out whenever the trails aren't rideable, but thanks for your efforts today, John.

The only things that come to mind are beating the living daylights out of poachers. Maybe hiding behind a tree shortly after the trail entrance and letting them meet the business end of a baseball bat as they ride by. Of course that's no good, someone will just get sued plus that means someone will have to camp out all the time. I don't think rider education is going to do it, nor is better signs. It all comes down to risk/reward. These people don't care about anyone else and they only think about themselves. So you have to make the punishment of being caught multiplied by the probability of being caught beyond personal reward these jack-off's get by poaching the trail. Big honkin fines will help, but then there needs to be enforcement and that costs $$.

How about a wall of shame? If we could get a motion activated camera (again $$$) to take pictures of trail poachers and post them on a board on the trail head? Or even, if someone does stop to the trail head and takes down license numbers of cars can we get names and address for them from somewhere? Then we can send them a nasty little note, for some people just knowing that they aren't anonymous will be a deterrent. Of couse that only works for people with cars, there are a lot of people that ride to the trail. Especially in that "identified group" of people that seem to care less.

[gopherhockey]

The wall of shame idea is interesting... I did have my camera ready yesterday in case anyone refused to stay off - I was going to snap their picture and post it here. They could then get their image removed by coming out for a trail work session (kind of like a bad check) ;) Not sure if that is a good way to promote MORC, but it would sure feel good!

This is definitely a problem that affects us all. If we can't find a way to keep people off either by education or fines or whatever, we are going to find ourselves losing momentum if not losing trails. The best thing to do about a wet trail is to try and fix it. If we can't fix it, there might be cause to shut it down permanently.

The X loop is a good example. I love it.. if for no other reason because it directly defies normal design standards for trails. We would never build another trail like it (going back and forth through low spots etc.) again, but it has been "grandfathered" into the plan at Lebanon. This is one trail that requires much maintenance to stay dry, and can get the most damage when wet. If people can't stay off I am going to stop defending this trail, stop maintaining it, and suggest we close it down. This brings the XX loop into question - it was built and handles moisture very well, but you need the X loop to get to the XX. Maybe we shut them both down permanently. Would that send a message?

Maybe without elevated sections, berms, jumps and teeters we wouldn't get some of these individuals out there in poor riding conditions. Whenever I meet someone on a wet trial when i'm doign maintenance they always ask me "how do I get to the jump?" or "where is the XX loop?".

Closing down one of our favorite trails would affect us all. I would certainly be bummed! But maybe it would send a message out to the entire community that we all have to work together to find solutions to this type of situation. If we can't, then there is really only one alternative.

I don't want to do this, but maybe this needs to be brought up when we discuss the situation with Dakota. I'm sure they would have no problem closing a trail down indefinitely. What better message than putting up a big permanent trail closed fence/sign that says "this trail is closed due to riders failing to stay off during poor conditions"....

[jaybird]

Dakota County, I personally believe, knows that MORC members - especially John and others that regularly do trail maintenance - have the trail system and soil conservation in mind. What steps does anyone think it would take to suggest to Dakota County that the trailbosses be given the authority to open/close the trails at LH?

The idea is that the trail maintainers shoudl have a better idea on when the trails should/should not be ridden. I believe we've attained a level of respect from the Park Board. With "experts" now determining when the trail should be open or closed, it opens the door to local law enforcement effectively issuing citations/tickets.

I think that shutting a trail down, just because it rains, leads to potentially bad situation. You'll have riders that didn't get caught riding the trails after a small rain event and spread the word that the trails are just fine after a rain - which will probably be non-racers like Andy stated. This will compound the problem of trying to educate those that do not want to be educated.

[syntaxjunkie]

If Dakota County does begin to issue citations, perhaps MORC could offer the equivalent of a traffic school for moving violations. Give people the choice of either paying their fine or putting in x volunteer hours of trail maintenance with MORC. It might take some of the sting out of a more rigid enforcement regime, and would definitely give people a new respect for the effort it takes to keep up a trail. Plus, we might even get some new members out of it.

[gopherhockey]

If Dakota County does begin to issue citations, perhaps MORC could offer the equivalent of a traffic school for moving violations. Give people the choice of either paying their fine or putting in x volunteer hours of trail maintenance with MORC. It might take some of the sting out of a more rigid enforcement regime, and would definitely give people a new respect for the effort it takes to keep up a trail. Plus, we might even get some new members out of it.This is the type of thing I'd actually love to see. There really is no way these individuals will learn why it was bad unless they come out and work... because once they do its guaranteed they will be in this discussion like the rest of us defending our trails. I don't know how Dakota would see it - but its something to bring up.

I think the issue on how we deal with conditions before events, during events, during regular riding, in the springtime/fall etc. has come up often enough to warrant a little more attention in this area when we meet and agree with land managers to do trail work. Part of the offer to build trails and the agreement to allow us in should contain some kind of agreement on management. If they were willing to have us do trails but wanted us not to micro-manage them thats ok, but I'd want to know that and know not to spend a lot of my own time building and maintaining trails where I know there isn't even a small amount of agreement on these issues. Not saying we wouldn't build there, but I personally wouldn't stress over it and spend my days off guarding the trail like a crazy fool :crazy:

I'm not picking on anyone currently - just saying going forward. I have no doubt we can figure this out with the likes of Dakota because they are really great to work with. I really don't see any land manager disapproving of a group willing to build and take some amount of ownership to the trails, but time spent actually enforcing might be the biggest issue. We just need to get it on the agenda and deal with it.

[gopherhockey]

Sun is out, but I'd stay off the trails today. Maybe by tomorrow evening... X and XX will remain closed probably until the weekend or next week.

[berrywise]

I think one of those big flip back and forth signs that can be locked. Kinda like they have on the side of semi's would be a nice addition that stated if the trail was open or closed. As for making it illegal to ride I think it would be a start but I wonder how much backing you would get on something like that from park staff. Maybe if it were to get passed through a sign stating the fee for riding when the trails are closed would discourage many from doing it.

I think there is always going to be the small ignorant few who choose to do it with our without signs with or without penalites and those you just have to live with.

scott

[socrates]

Sun is out, but I'd stay off the trails today. Maybe by tomorrow evening... X and XX will remain closed probably until the weekend or next week.
:cryin: I hate Rain!

[gopherhockey]

Sat at the trailhead today for a couple hours on my way home... about a dozen or so bikers came through - almost all were very nice and understanding about the trail being closed, even with it being sunny and in the 70s..

I'm thinking tomorrow should be ok to ride - say around 4pm... much of the trail is good, its just those low spots.

X and XX probably won't be open until Friday or Sat - I haven't had a chance to look at em' yet.

[zerpy]

Sat at the trailhead today for a couple hours on my way home... about a dozen or so bikers came through - almost all were very nice and understanding about the trail being closed, even with it being sunny and in the 70s..

I'm thinking tomorrow should be ok to ride - say around 4pm... much of the trail is good, its just those low spots.

X and XX probably won't be open until Friday or Sat - I haven't had a chance to look at em' yet.
So shortly after I saw you today at the trail, I headed home and picked up the wife and kid to go out for dinner. We saw a truck coming from the terrace area (not sure what other trails in that area) that had two mountain bikes in the back, both setup "wrong", that were caked with mud. Too bad for the trail they were on:fool:

[gopherhockey]

So shortly after I saw you today at the trail, I headed home and picked up the wife and kid to go out for dinner. We saw a truck coming from the terrace area (not sure what other trails in that area) that had two mountain bikes in the back, both setup "wrong", that were caked with mud. Too bad for the trail they were on:fool:
Yea, while I had luck talking people out of riding Lebanon they all started to ask "where else can we ride.." It was hard to say... well, nowhere really. I think some that I spoke too even went around to the Galaxy entrance and snuck in.

Oh well, I think the trail is getting better now. Hopefully there hasn't been too much permanent damage. I might have to go to the "data center" tomorrow and do a little trail maintenance then have a ride.

I will bring jerseys tomorrow. I'll know tomorrow what time that will be and will post in case anyone wants to pick em' up before their ride.

Was fun talking to ya in the lot today... I haven't seen some of you as much as I would like this year... we gotta start doing more group rides or something!

[Ish]

I might have to go to the "data center" tomorrow Sunny and 72 deg......... Man I wish I had a "data center" to go to ;)

[zerpy]

Sunny and 72 deg......... Man I wish I had a "data center" to go to ;)
Leb works great, those advanced methods of modulating dirt really gives high bit density but requires constant maintenance:etard:

[bradpartyka]

Sat at the trailhead today for a couple hours on my way home... about a dozen or so bikers came through - almost all were very nice and understanding about the trail being closed, even with it being sunny and in the 70s..

I'm thinking tomorrow should be ok to ride - say around 4pm... much of the trail is good, its just those low spots.

X and XX probably won't be open until Friday or Sat - I haven't had a chance to look at em' yet.
Will some of Leb be open early this afternoon (noonish)? It is awful nice out there and I am dying to get my new tires dirty. I had to ride on paved bike trails yesterday. :cryin:

[gopherhockey]

Will some of Leb be open early this afternoon (noonish)? It is awful nice out there and I am dying to get my new tires dirty. I had to ride on paved bike trails yesterday. :cryin:
I think I can make it there by 3:00pm earliest, is that ok? I'd like to sweep the trail once for debris before its officially opened.

[bradpartyka]

Funny!!! I just drove by Leb on my way home and all of the yellow tape and do not ride signs are down.

There were 8 vehicles in the pkg lot. Two bike racks sitting empty and one guy loading up his bike. Also, a few suspicious pickups (never can tell with them).

How would I have known without checking first?
:mad:

[gopherhockey]

Funny!!! I just drove by Leb on my way home and all of the yellow tape and do not ride signs are down.

There were 8 vehicles in the pkg lot. Two bike racks sitting empty and one guy loading up his bike. Also, a few suspicious pickups (never can tell with them).

How would I have known without checking first?
:mad:Apparently someone decided to take it upon themselves to remove it... doesn't mean it is right, but I guess since people have decided on their own to ride its as good as open. :mad:

Then again I did tell a lot of people "tomorrow it should be open" yesterday as they drove through, so maybe someone decided we neglected to take down the fence... (just trying to give the benefit of the doubt to whomever did it)

Either way thats fine, guess its open. Hope someone at least has the courtesy to post how things are right now.

Hope they at least left the X loop tape up!

[bradpartyka]

Apparently someone decided to take it upon themselves to remove it... doesn't mean it is right, but I guess since people have decided on their own to ride its as good as open. :mad:

Then again I did tell a lot of people "tomorrow it should be open" yesterday as they drove through, so maybe someone decided we neglected to take down the fence... (just trying to give the benefit of the doubt to whomever did it)

Either way thats fine, guess its open. Hope someone at least has the courtesy to post how things are right now.

Hope they at least left the X loop tape up!
Well alrighty!!! I'm heading there in the next hour after lunch digests!!! :)
I did want to see that new elevation, but that's in the XX section. :cryin: I'll stay off there.

[gopherhockey]

Well alrighty!!! I'm heading there in the next hour after lunch digests!!! :)
I did want to see that new elevation, but that's in the XX section. :cryin: I'll stay off there.If the tape is down, go ahead and ride it - but let us know how conditions are and use caution. The XX should be ok, its the beginning half of the X that was nasty.

If you ride it and feel the tape should remain up let us know, I'll fix it on my first lap around...

Actually I think I'm not feeling well at work here (cough cough) so I'll maybe see ya out there.. ;)

[bradpartyka]

If the tape is down, go ahead and ride it - but let us know how conditions are and use caution. The XX should be ok, its the beginning half of the X that was nasty.

If you ride it and feel the tape should remain up let us know, I'll fix it on my first lap around...

Actually I think I'm not feeling well at work here (cough cough) so I'll maybe see ya out there.. ;) The trail is still a bit wet. The new exit single track is extremly wet. The tape was tore down on the x loop, but was just blowing there in the wind (Didn't know if you wanted it put back up when you got out there). It is still wet. I walked around a few parts with standing water. The trail was tacky enough that my new tires got nice and muddy!!! I really thought it would be dryer than that by now.

[zerpy]

The trail is still a bit wet. The new exit single track is extremly wet. The tape was tore down on the x loop, but was just blowing there in the wind (Didn't know if you wanted it put back up when you got out there). It is still wet. I walked around a few parts with standing water. The trail was tacky enough that my new tires got nice and muddy!!! I really thought it would be dryer than that by now.

That doesn't surprise me at all, there's a lot less air movement in the trail there and not nearly as much sunlight. Takes a loooonnnnggg time...:(

How much damage did you see?

[bradpartyka]

How much damage did you see?
Lots!!! The new single track is rutted up pretty bad. Plus, there is a little standing water in all parts of the trail with ruts. You can barely get into the x loop before hitting a large pool of water at the second log. A couple I had to walk around. Some brush should be cut back. One on the new single track I am sure John will see. You can't go around it.

[gopherhockey]

I agree with your assesment of the trail - things are still quite wet. Its always the low spots - the X loop is full of them. I wouldn't have opened up the X loop quite yet, but someone decided to tear down the tape - so I guess they know better than I do... I left it open. I imagine riders will pack in the wet spots nice so during the next rain it will be even worse.... thats ok, I'm not going to waste my time fixing them anymore if someone else out there knows better.

The trail troll was busted up too. Must have pissed someone off to get that mad. I dunno, it might have been the weather that knocked him down - but I doubt it. Probably the same ass that tore the tape down. I think Dakota maintenance saw the tape hanging loose in the parking lot and cleaned it up... which probably makes them think we're making a mess, which also doesn't help much.

I'm disgusted and getting burned out. All it takes is a couple of idiot riders to spoil it all for the rest of us. I'm questioning now why I'd bother lobbying for the second teeter, the new jump or any of the "XX" stuff that probably is what brings the riff-raff onto the trail in the first place.

Sorry I have such a bad attitude here, but its hard when a person spends a lot of time trying to help.. sees others (like all of you reading this) do the same, only to have someone come in and think they know better. One can bet they will never join MORC, never help the trail crew, and probably do sign on here to read only stopping short of posting their comments because they are too intimidated by all the mature attitudes present in the forums.

I'm *this* short of just up and giving up at Lebanon... sorry, I just think I'm getting too emotional over it all. Maybe the guy who decided the X loop was open can go out and do all the trimming as well...

[bradpartyka]

The trail troll was busted up too. Must have pissed someone off to get that mad. I dunno, it might have been the weather that knocked him down - but I doubt it. Probably the same ass that tore the tape down. I think Dakota maintenance saw the tape hanging loose in the parking lot and cleaned it up... which probably makes them think we're making a mess, which also doesn't help much.
The troll was up in its place when I passed. I dunno if it was broken, but it was in it's place. I just looked and went under.

Maybe, a yellow chain with a lock or a nice steel gate with a sign on it "do not ride trail is wet" might be better then tape???

[gopherhockey]

The troll was up in its place when I passed. I dunno if it was broken, but it was in it's place. I just looked and went under.


I think someone was nice enough to rescue him - he was just propped up on the tree. His legs are busted as well as his hat... so I removed him entirely. No more trail troll.... RIP Mr. Troll. (and there goes our trail guardian..) :mad: :cryin:

[berrywise]

Is it out out of the question to install a nice sturdy wooden gate, with some good old carved in markings that state 'closed', and could be locked at certain trail intersections?

My belief is that the yellow tape gets torn by some punk who doesn't care if the trails get wrecked or not (and actually takes enjoyment from riding in the mud). And then the next group of people that comes along don't even recognize that they are doing harm because they are uneducated about riding trails that are wet (and maybe wouldn't ride the trail if they knew) and ride it anyway.

Obviously the punk is gonna just ride around the gate and well there is not much you are going to do about it. But maybe the people who just don't no matter better would yield to it and ride trails that are open.

All in all the trails are gonna get ridden when they are still wet. I think it would be best to just minimize the amount they get ridden.

[syntaxjunkie]

I think someone was nice enough to rescue him - he was just propped up on the tree. His legs are busted as well as his hat... so I removed him entirely. No more trail troll.... RIP Mr. Troll. (and there goes our trail guardian..) :mad: :cryin:

What kind of half-assed idiot takes out their aggressions on a garden gnome? For chrissakes, is this what the world's coming to? A place where peace-loving ceramic creatures must cower in fear for their lives? A place where gangs of marauding thugs vent their fury on defenseless inanimate objects?

This is a hate crime, friends. We must all stand together and send a message to the world that this act of cowardice is an attack not just on one gnome, or even all of gnomekind, but on everyone who knows and loves gnomes. Who's with me? :fool:

[gopherhockey]

All in all the trails are gonna get ridden when they are still wet. I think it would be best to just minimize the amount they get ridden.
You have a good point here. I think when we change the trail leaving the parking lot into singletrack its going to be easier to control. I also agree tape is temporary AND I think it doesn't really hold much weight... it just looks temporary, not official. If I was a rider out there I might even second guess who has the authority to be putting up tape like that... most of them don't know who MORC is. The ones that go around it will do it regardless - they most likely do know of MORC and maybe even do it in spite of our efforts... we will never win that battle.

I think more and more we need to discuss these things with Dakota and see what they will help us do or allow us to do. I believe they do want us to keep the trails maintained and will have no issue in our managing closures. I'm sure they would also enjoy not seeing caution tape all over the place.

[gopherhockey]

This is a hate crime, friends. We must all stand together and send a message to the world that this act of cowardice is an attack not just on one gnome, or even all of gnomekind, but on everyone who knows and loves gnomes. Who's with me? :fool:
Thanks for this.. you took me from being ready to blow my top to having a good laugh about it. I'm with ya! :D

[bradpartyka]

I think more and more we need to discuss these things with Dakota and see what they will help us do or allow us to do. I believe they do want us to keep the trails maintained and will have no issue in our managing closures. I'm sure they would also enjoy not seeing caution tape all over the place.
Something like that new beautiful wood engraved sign saying the trail is closed would be awesome to have at the front. You could put it up when the trail is wet and have one end pad locked.

[bradpartyka]

This is a hate crime, friends. We must all stand together and send a message to the world that this act of cowardice is an attack not just on one gnome, or even all of gnomekind, but on everyone who knows and loves gnomes. Who's with me? :fool:
Maybe, a new one could be put out there with a plaque telling of a Gnome curse for removal of the Gnome trail protector???

:crazy:

[ryno lite]

It makes me kind of feel bad also John, I feel I also have some ownership to(not as much as you of course). I think the new single track entrance will help and we really need to consider a lockable fence when that's done. It's not fulproof, but better than tape. I know it's not as fun as building new stuff but I know I and probably many others are willing to get out some day in the near future and fix the damage. I know it's a pain, but I feel it's worth it for how much I and everyone else enjoy all sections of the trail. Anyway, if we need to get a repair crew together, count me in!

[noise_is_life]

I think we just need a volunteer clydesdale vigilante group protecting the trails. A pulaski would make a very convincing argument.

[zerpy]

The troll was up in its place when I passed. I dunno if it was broken, but it was in it's place. I just looked and went under.

Maybe, a yellow chain with a lock or a nice steel gate with a sign on it "do not ride trail is wet" might be better then tape???
Spring loaded baseball bats at head level....

Or how about those tire popping things they use to close driveways?

[Kosk]

I rode leb at 4pm, Saw no closed signs so I prceeded with caution. ( No wonder, somebody tore them down) There are about a dozen bad spots. Don't ride the new bypass, this is soft and held alot of moisture, I turned around and took the old way. I would wait another day or 2 and just take the double track. Watch out in the first half of the X loop. XX is all ok. The worst section is on the newest out section after the big climb where you get the nice rolly down hill before the new bridge. This section is REALLY nasty. Alot of the nasty stuff is on corners, so just go slow. Should be better by tomorrow night after another day of drying. If you really go slow you can stop and step right over (not around) the muddy spots, alot of them are only 1 or 2 feet square. If we get any more measurable rain this weekend things will get real wet real quick. It's in that in-between phase right now.

Ride slow(er).

John, sorry I missed you at the trail head. I was wating around looking for your mini-van after riding. I was just hoping by chance I'd see you. I'll be gone this weekend but could meet up with you sunday night or monday if you want the wood before tuesday.

[gopherhockey]

Maybe, a new one could be put out there with a plaque telling of a Gnome curse for removal of the Gnome trail protector???

:crazy:
Yes.. yes, I did forget about the curse! This person not only cursed themselves for the year, but all his friends and relatives... ok, maybe not that far, but whomever it was can expect broken bike parts and lots of hard falls this year.. and each time he passes under the old gnome tree.. well...

Now I feel bad for the guy... :evil:

[gopherhockey]

John, sorry I missed you at the trail head. I was wating around looking for your mini-van after riding. I was just hoping by chance I'd see you. I'll be gone this weekend but could meet up with you sunday night or monday if you want the wood before tuesday.
Dang, I forgot about the wood! Oops.. sorry. Was in such a hurry to get the heck out of Lebanon that I forgot some of the important things. (Jason, sorry to leave you hanging with no jersey - glad you caught me at Buck tonight)

I'll PM ya so we can set something up for the wood... thanks again!

[grizzly adam]

John, I hate to see you get so beat up about Lebanon - but not as much as I hate seeing riders blow through/under tape closing a trail.

I think that this is a prime opportunity to approach DC and figure out - like you mentioned - what they will allow us to do/not to do.
Obviously the big concern here is that people don't care. Why don't they care? Maybe they don't KNOW. If DC will give us space on the board, we can post some trail etiquette, MORC info/background trail maintenance schedule. I would think that DC would make a plaque or something for MORC to show appreciation for the work done here (sorry if any DC people are reading this - I'm sure there has been many thanks, I'm just not aware of it). Post some of those trail work pics. I bet people would notice that in passing and stop and then read the trail etiquette and rules.

I just think that if we make it easier for people to know about MORC and the rules of riding, the more they'll respect 'em. Right now it seems that it's just a bunch of geeks on the computer at work who know all about the trails. We get mad at the people who don't follow our lead, but are we giving them all the tools they need to know about what we do and why we do it?

I don't mean this in a bad way at all, but maybe instead of focusing on adding more "stunts" we should take that time and make some wooden signs and getting DC to let us make a nice spread on the bulletin board, educate the riders who don't know.

[syntaxjunkie]

I think we just need a volunteer clydesdale vigilante group protecting the trails. A pulaski would make a very convincing argument.

Now THAT gives me an idea for the new MORC stickers...

Sign me up for the clyde vigilante partol. It'll give me a good excuse to cultivate new dastardly facial hair.

[zerpy]

And for anyone that thought we might be able to get back on the trails. They are predicting showers and t-stoms tonight and tomorrow. While normally the trail would prob be able to shed it, with it as saturated it's been would another rain just soak it all again?

[TrailPatrol]

Now they are saying a 40-50% chance of showers or storms, and both Barlow and Douglas are saying Saturday won't be a wash-out, so jes' wait and see.

John, in Police Cyclist training they taught us how to use our bikes as a weapon. :shocked: Maybe I should teach you that.

Ride safe,
:banana:
Hans

[gopherhockey]

John, in Police Cyclist training they taught us how to use our bikes as a weapon. :shocked: Maybe I should teach you that.


I know I've hurt myself with my own bike a few times, so I must be about half way there... you'll have to fill in the rest sometime ;)

[gopherhockey]

Rode 27 miles this afternoon.. conditions are actually quite improved over yesterday. The good thing about having so many riders out there is that eventually they flatten down the ruts that get created. Doesn't mean we don't have some trouble areas to deal with... but all in all things are looking up.

I would suggest if you have the means and the time to get out and ride today! Don't stop until your legs give out or your feet fall off. (in my case I was trying out new gloves and my hands hurt so bad I had to stop)

The X loop is even shaping up... although we DEFINITELY could use a break from the you-know-what (I'm not even going to say it or I'll jinx us).

I'm heading out in a bit to try fix some of the nasty spots just in case we get some of that you-know-what. Hope to see some of you out there enjoying the weather and trails!!!!

(BTW: I feel better today... hehe)

[rowland]

John, are you planing on going out this weekend and doing repairs. If you posted what time you're planning to go out, I would like to help.

[SPR]

Can Dakota County issue tickets to vehicles in the parking lot when the trails are closed for wetness? I specifically mean vehicles that obviously transported bikes to the trail and are now out on the closed trails.

[nigel]

Can Dakota County issue tickets to vehicles in the parking lot when the trails are closed for wetness? I specifically mean vehicles that obviously transported bikes to the trail and are now out on the closed trails.
I dont think they could do that, there would be too many mix ups with hikers. I go to hike there quite a bit when its closed for riding and i keep my rack on my truck when i do. Ive seen a lot of hikers there with roof racks too. There is no way for them to tell unless they see a bike.

D

[gopherhockey]

John, are you planing on going out this weekend and doing repairs. If you posted what time you're planning to go out, I would like to help.
Hey, thanks for the offer! I did some today, if it rains might need to do some yet this weekend.. I'll letcha know, thanks for the offer!

[TrailPatrol]

Hey, thanks for the offer! I did some today, if it rains might need to do some yet this weekend.. I'll letcha know, thanks for the offer!
Remember, you have a previous commitment on Sunday afternoon...you're mine, all mine!!! (Followed by very evil laugh.) Precioussss. (Can we get a smiley with a Gollum face on it?)

See you then!
:banana:
Hans

[nigel]

Sooo Saturday pre 5pm Leb trail conditions were prety darn good! The beginner is nice and dry, intermediate is a bit sticky but not wet, the X loop was even dry with no puddles and the XX stood up like a champ. The only real bad part was the new intermediate section that cuts the old triple uphill and the last part of the intermediate out. They were both really tacky but no standing water.

There are quite a few corners that need to be fixed, but all in all, Id say after those foolios tore down the closed signs and tape the trail held up very well. Lets just hope it does not rain anymore!

Douglas

[thebionicman]

I was there from 5-6 tonight and I agree the trail was in good condition, nice work on getting some of the problem areas to drain. Felt good to get out and ride those sections that I helped out on. The rainbow is pretty sweet, now I just have to convince myself to take the narrow exit. I can't believe how well Dream Trail has packed down, even the new intermediate section packed down considering how soft that area was.

[dave t]

As I check the latest trail update (8:15 Saturday night) the sky has just uncorked a downpour and the gutters are flowing like a river:mad: . Since it only takes me 7 minutes (not pushing too hard) to bike to Lebanon, I'm sure it hit there to so sunday riding might be a bad idea.

[gopherhockey]

As I check the latest trail update (8:15 Saturday night) the sky has just uncorked a downpour and the gutters are flowing like a river:mad: . Since it only takes me 7 minutes (not pushing too hard) to bike to Lebanon, I'm sure it hit there to so sunday riding might be a bad idea.F#$)(* rain... just can't stay away. I was hoping we'd escape it this time.

How about 7 days without rain.. can we do it? :mad:

Always when I look at the radar there is a nice little red spot right over Lebanon and just green all around.

Its the curse of the Troll!

[The Bull]

Any idea of the trail condition for an afternoon ride today? Not sure how much rain fell last night. If it is not rideable, I will pull the road bike out.

[rowland]

i'd like to get down there today too, havn't been in the saddle for 5 weeks and am chompin' at the bit.

we got hit pretty hard up north up here, how was it down there?

[bradpartyka]

I am 4 miles from Lebanon and it poured pretty bad here for a while. However, this morning my yard is almost already dry. So, maybe, Leb is drying out quickly too??? I am sure the standing spots of water that were there on Thursday are back. So, go around those.

[dave t]

1.5 inches in the rain bucket this morning and my lawn is still soaking wet. I'm roughly 2 miles+ to the Galaxie entry and I'll bet that every mud hole out there is full.
Isn't it bad to go around the mud unless the trail is already wide enough?
Windy and 80 Monday should help but the whole week looks like a chance for more water.

[gopherhockey]

I would doubt the trail is in good condition at all if we got over 1" of rain on top of what it was like already. Probably the same wet areas as before, and every time people ride through or around them they are going to get worse.

If it were me I'd stay off until Monday even if much of the trail were to dry out today... we are just creating a lot of trouble areas by going too quickly onto the trails. *maybe* I'd do outer loops late in the day since those areas dry quickest.

[Brick]

I'm just assuming the same people are out there right now thinking because the pavement is dry so must be the trials.
Did 23 miles on pavement this morning.....I was thinking of running over to Battle Creek this AM, even though it dries pretty quickly, with the street still wet when I got up, I just couldn't justify it.

I'd take a day off to ride later this week, but the 10 day forcast seems to offer little relief. Next weekend looks nice, but if it rains (again) all week, there's going to be no riding.

....mebbe it's time to look for a job out in Grand Junction CO....this is insane.

[gopherhockey]

If the weather is going to do this too us all summer long, perhaps its time to start taking the biggest trouble areas and doing something about them. Maybe if we could tackle a half dozen of the areas that are the slowest to dry out or fix we could make recovery time much quicker and minimize damage due to post-rain poachers.

A couple of boardwalks are probably in order for the X (mentioned earlier). Even in spots they are not normally needed - we could put them down anyway and move them later if conditions were to change.

Areas on the outer loop that get wet can probably be fixed by de-berming... some of our trails are pretty new and we haven't had a chance to see how they react yet - so fixing them is a matter of going back over them in conditions like today and tweaking.

Maybe the thought is to not fight mother nature each time it wants to dump an inch of rain when the trail is *just* drying out and try beat her another way. We just need treated 2x4s and treated planking material like what we build our obstacles with.

[bradpartyka]

1.5 inches in the rain bucket this morning and my lawn is still soaking wet.
Try cutting your grass??? It helps it dry out faster!!! :)

[rowland]

i just got back from lh, and the parking lot was full of riders covered head to toe in mud.

i didn't have the heart to ride:cryin:

if i can't ride, i volunteer my services to help with repairs. if anyone is going to be doing repairs, john, post about an hour before hand and i'll be there.

[dave t]

I did that Wednesday and again Saturday morning and every 3 or 4 days before that. I've put in more miles behind my Toro than on my Giant this year.:cryin:

I'm thinking about a small heard of goats for the grass but I hate road riding so I need some way to stay in shape for when the rain finally stops.

[Fiveohhh]

Might have to do some MORC recruiting on days like this. Head down there with some membership cards and applications, and sit by the trail head.... Catch 'em after their ride and guilt them into it:D

[RedSquirrel]

I've read the chain her and must reply for clarification of situation and peoples here...

If you can't get muddy and wet why ride. I applaud the work over the last three years to avoid trouble spots, but let's not watch summer go by. Ruts, run off and errosion can be fixed eventually. The question is by who, and what materials. Ok, maybe materials aren't free either.

Personally, the quality of the ride does not suffer if dangerous terrian and hike-a-bike are required. I'd say let one area be for flatlanders and one for mud holer's. They will deal with their trail. Sounds like many like flat with no mud (throw in a few log rolls) - others need more. How to satisfy all..

ok, morc. I'm new. When is fix it day/week?

Will the winter sog and new digs ever settle to satisfaction of the people in this chain?

Also, will I ever be able to ride in the rain, wet and mud without feeling like half the city slickers are after me?

Thks-

-back in MPLS

[rowland]

I've read the chain her and must reply for clarification of situation and peoples here...

If you can't get muddy and wet why ride. I applaud the work over the last three years to avoid trouble spots, but let's not watch summer go by. Ruts, run off and errosion can be fixed eventually. The question is by who, and what materials. Ok, maybe materials aren't free either.

Personally, the quality of the ride does not suffer if dangerous terrian and hike-a-bike are required. I'd say let one area be for flatlanders and one for mud holer's. They will deal with their trail. Sounds like many like flat with no mud (throw in a few log rolls) - others need more. How to satisfy all..

ok, morc. I'm new. When is fix it day/week?

Will the winter sog and new digs ever settle to satisfaction of the people in this chain?

Also, will I ever be able to ride in the rain, wet and mud without feeling like half the city slickers are after me?

Thks-

-back in MPLSevery tuesday at 6pm MORC has a trail day at Leb.
the biggest concern isn't that damage can be fixed, it can. it's that most people would rather spend trail day building new stunts or trails. also there is a concern that dakota county doesn't want the trails to creep out of the single track because of people trying to go around the mud puddles. we've all seen that, the evedence is all around the trail.
as far as riding in the slop, i don't think anybody has the authority to stop you, it's that alot of people have a sense of ownership because of the work they do. we would all like to see you out on tuesday getting your own sense of ownership.
as far as summer slipping away,,,i don't even want to think like that

[noise_is_life]

I've read the chain her and must reply for clarification of situation and peoples here...

Just show up for some groups rides and trailwork before making such broad statements about the people around here.

MORC Trailwork Page (http://www.morcmtb.org/morcpages/work.htm)

Group Ride Forum (http://www.morcmtb.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=58)

I would pass the question about trail repair onto the dirt bosses around here, is it really possible to get a trail back to it's original condition after it has been damaged by riding it wet? It seems to me like you could never get it back to its pristine condition.

[gopherhockey]

Will the winter sog and new digs ever settle to satisfaction of the people in this chain?

Also, will I ever be able to ride in the rain, wet and mud without feeling like half the city slickers are after me?

Thks-

-back in MPLSI'm pleased that you had the guts to post this question. So many that read here that don't agree must either go away unhappy or sit there and wonder what kinds of crazy people we are to keep mountain bikers off wet trails.

I'm building a new page devoted to the question entirely... so I won't go much into it here. I will answer your questions above though.

I'm not sure what you mean by winter sog and new digs, but if you just mean the trails - we definitely have been happy more than not regarding the condition out there at Leb. Things dried up quickly this spring and we had some great riding. The last month, however, we've had rain upon rain that is beating us down. Its accumulating in areas that normally we'd say "who cares" and just ride.

As for riding in the rain wet and mud - feel free to do so, but if you do it at Lebanon or other IMBA/MORC designed trails you'll always be subject to scorn. There has been too many people spending too many hours to build these trails... No trail anywhere can withstand riding in the rain or mud without some impact. I'd invite you to one of our trail work days so you can work with us first hand... come build some new trails or fix some existing ones. Very quickly you will get a new feeling of ownership in the trails, of responsibility, and of pride. This feeling is contageous believe me!

I challenge anyone out there reading this that is shaking their heads at our discussions to come out. Until you do I don't blame you for feeling the way you do, but I do ask that you please follow the rules that are set out by those responsible for the trails and those that have been out to work on them...

BTW: I have a question - how does one "hike a bike" without widening the trails. Do all (and I mean 100%) of riders willing to ride in wet and mud hike directly through the middle of these trouble areas? I'm just guessing that hike a bike means walk your bike out and around trouble areas... which cases even bigger trouble areas. Not sure though because I don't hike my bike... ??

[noise_is_life]

You are so much more diplomatic that I am John, that's why you get the big bucks, oh wait...:D

[gopherhockey]

I would pass the question about trail repair onto the dirt bosses around here, is it really possible to get a trail back to it's original condition after it has been damaged by riding it wet? It seems to me like you could never get it back to its pristine condition.This is a very good question!

This is pretty much the case... depending on the initial design of the trails. If wet spots form like they are on the new "Dream Trail" (exit trail) at Lebanon its not too late.. much of those are because we had no idea where bikes would go, and had no idea how rain would flow until the time came. Its not easy though, once the trail is built and gets ridden in. The trail compacts where riders go and make de-berming the outside edge very difficult... but not impossible. The more riders are on them though the harder they are to fix.

The key is that you can't simply fill in a low spot. It just never works. To fix a low spot you have to make a lower one for the rain to go... or, you bring out a crew and re-build the trail entirely. Its like when the street crews patch in a pot hole - eventually it just breaks apart and the hole gets worse.

In the X loop we have areas that just cannot drain anywhere. When riders are on it on days like today they sink farther into those holes and they get deeper - each time they will hold more water and take longer to dry out. Turns that might shed water get ruts in them, then they start to hold water as well. When things like this happen we either get creative with re-routes and boardwalks or we close them down for good.

It all comes back to who cares... (and here goes my diplomacy hehe) who cares if the holes get deeper and the water stands longer? We do because we take pride in our trails and want to have minimal impact on nature and on our trail crew. If no MORC trailwork happened for months our trails should be able to maintain themselves. The land managers care as well. When we (we as in MORC, not those riders out there who have never helped or don't follow common sense) got approval to build trails it wasn't under the stipulation that riders could widen trails because they won't ride through wet spots - it was that we would build them sustainable trails that would never require their efforts to maintain. When Dakota sees the beginner loop widen from a few feet to 6' or more, they start to question their decision. They see (and I agree) an irresponsible riding community and a trail that doesn't seem to be holding up like we promised. The next time we go to ask them for a new trail or obstacle they then wonder just how much to give or when to say enough is enough. Once they start thinking that other land managers will pick up on it - eventually we'll lose out on huge opportunities to build elsewhere.

Then that one rider who is asking why they can't ride wet needs to look back at the domino affect they created.. might not happen the few hours they were out there, but it does happen. You can't repair some trails... but worse, you cannot repair those lost opportunities.

Not even land managers, but ourselves. Time and time again I personally have almost given up on being the dirt boss at Lebanon simply because a few individuals can't use their heads. I'm not saying I'm any big deal - but if more and more of our volunteers lose interest and lose heart, who is going to keep up the trails or build new ones? Next time I go to a hearing on whether or not to give bikers new trails and someone questions our maturity I tell you what - I'm not going to defend us as much as I used too... we deserve much of the reputation we have and I've lost heart to debate that issue any longer. More power too the hikers and horse riders... they probably aren't as selfish as many bike owners are.

We are either all in this together even if some of the "rules" seem odd, or we're all in it for ourselves and we won't see 300 more acres of trails in places like Murphy... or new trails and obstacles at Lebanon.

That one rider out there poaching a trail when its closed or wet is impacting us all and I hope everyone reads this knows this and will act accordingly if they see someone not following rules or common sense.

I could rant all day... ;)

[gopherhockey]

Having said all that, the outside loop at Lebanon appears to have handled the rains pretty well. When I got there to do some damage control around 11 there had already been a half dozen riders or more on the trails. You could see their tire treds, but they weren't sinking in except in the few low spots.

The X loop and our new upper bypass were another story. I closed those down immediately... and you know what? Nobody poached them while I was there!! :banana:

The XX is starting to show some wet spots, but still is in much better shape than the X is. Its really too bad that closing the X means the XX is closed too - I think this is much of why people are so eager to break through the caution tape. Today the XX loop does need time though.

One of these weeks we'll avoid the rain and that upper bypass section will harden up enough to stop opening and closing it all the time.

All the frustration over recent rains seems to also be compounded by roots that are leaking out onto the newer trails. Bleeding roots are actually causing much of our issues on the new bypass trail and the really wet area of the dream trail...

[bradpartyka]

For a new comer to trail responsibility it is easy to see how this can all seem bizare. It's nature, let the people use it... But, try to think of all of the effort that all of the volunteers have put fourth to make Lebanon happen. Do you think some city official just thought it would be fun to tear up plants and build single track? Lebanon hills is the pride of Eagan and not just for Mountain Bikers. Lebanon is a huge wildlife area. The Mountain Biking area is only a very small part of it. And yeah, I have envisioned John out there with a picth fork trying to hunt poachers down!!! :crazy2: So, I have learned not to go out there when everyone thinks it is to wet.

Almost everyone out there grew up with some sort of single track down the street or in their own back yard. That they all saw covered up with new homes. We rode our bikes on single track when we were kids before it was even called that. And yes, we rode it wet. It was so much fun coming home covered in mud. Then they covered it up. Everyone wants a piece of Lebanon. Developers would die for the chance to develop that land. They could make millions.

You can get away with riding wet trails out in the country. But, not in the city. Watch the city council meetings on that free cabel channel. Their not the most exciting bunch of people. They feel a proper city trail is paved or sandstone. Many see plant life killed and a line of black dirt very unsightly. Just like there are city ordinaces that ban things in our own yards because someone feels there ugly. We are very lucky to have a place to ride this close and were we can actually see deer when we ride. I saw one on Thursday. Lebanon could be shut down for Mountain biking at any moment. So, yeah, we need to yield to the cities expectations.

There are more tax payer hikers out there than Mountain bikers! Heck, how many people that ride Lebanon actualy live in Eagan???

[nigel]

*curses whatever key i pushed* I had a looong message to add but *poof* bye bye, darnit!

Well, yeah Come do trail work people!!!!!

D

[thebionicman]

Another way to think about it, is that the longer you have to wait to ride it the greater it feels to be out there. After a few trail sessions I know I have a new view of the trail. I was out there riding yesterday and a few spots were a little soft and I felt guilty riding it. It was also the first time I took one of my buddies out there, the first time I heard him skid I reamed him out, he didn't get where I was coming from. But he learned, eventually. When you see the amount of work that has gone into Leb you really appriciate it.

So let's just think before we ride. We have to put up with mother nature.

[gopherhockey]

Another way to think about it, is that the longer you have to wait to ride it the greater it feels to be out there. After a few trail sessions I know I have a new view of the trail. I was out there riding yesterday and a few spots were a little soft and I felt guilty riding it. It was also the first time I took one of my buddies out there, the first time I heard him skid I reamed him out, he didn't get where I was coming from. But he learned, eventually. When you see the amount of work that has gone into Leb you really appriciate it.

So let's just think before we ride. We have to put up with mother nature.Some very well said statements. In all reality we do tend to lean toward the "pristine" trail statement.. if thats what one wants to say... but all for good reasons, much like you mentioned. Lebanon is a metro trail and it does have to live up to some VERY steep expectations from many people.

The educated mountain biker is one that can look past their own eagerness and expectations and see the bigger picture - even if it can seem strange not to be getting those nice big tires out there in the grime.

I'd be all for someone coming up with their own private trail somewhere and going by their own rules... by all means a mud-riding group ought to form and get their own trail... maybe that will keep em' off all the others AND provide the experience of wet some seem to require. I'd even help this group build some nice sustainably wet and muddy trails.. ;)

I know when I find my own piece of land and build my own trail on it, I'll have my own set of rules for myself and my riding buddies and fellow trail workers.... now, anyone know of 80-300 acres of Lebanon-like land anyone isn't using??? ;)

[bradpartyka]

I know when I find my own piece of land and build my own trail on it, I'll have my own set of rules for myself and my riding buddies and fellow trail workers.... now, anyone know of 80-300 acres of Lebanon-like land anyone isn't using??? ;) I think a few acres in Eagan may run you a half a mill or so.... Let me know when you buy it. I will pay 5 bucks to get muddy each time!!!! :D

[gopherhockey]

I think a few acres in Eagan may run you a half a mill or so.... Let me know when you buy it. I will pay 5 bucks to get muddy!!!! :D
No doubt! I'd guess if I were to find this kind of land it would be an hour out of the city... probably make daily trailwork a little tougher ;)

[socrates]

every tuesday at 6pm MORC has a trail day at Leb.
Except the 2nd Tuesday of the month that is :)

[jeffgude]

Stopped by on my way out for a road ride - at about 3:00 pm there were only 4 - 5 cars in the Lebanon parking lot. Not too bad considering the good weather.

[zerpy]

*curses whatever key i pushed* I had a looong message to add but *poof* bye bye, darnit!

Well, yeah Come do trail work people!!!!!

D
OK, so I had the same thing, basically a long flaming message because I'm basically insulted. Went to hit submit and I got a page wanting me to log in?!?! I haven't had to log in for weeks, not since the page moved servers. Anyway, poof the message was gone :mad:

It's prob a conspiracy from John because I'm too long winded :) Anyway, I applaud your interest in coming out to trail work. I think it will be enlightening. Dakota county manages that trail that the taxpayers in dakota county own. Their duty to manage it drives them to set rules such that the most people can have access to it as much as possible. If they allowed activities that caused excess wear and tear (such as riding in the mud) the trail would have to be shut down for long periods of time for emergency repairs that are a lot more extensive than can be completed in one evening of trail work. You think you're summer is wasting away now? It's one think not to ride when it is crappy out, but to not get to ride when the weather is nice but the trail is shut down because of a few selfish individuals - now that sucks.

And/Or because there will be sections that are permenantly damaged parts of the trail will have to be permenantly shut down. This of course does not bode well with the county if we are doing enough damage to permenantly damage the land. It wouldn't take long to kick mountain bikers out if we regularily rode in the mud. You think we complain? Wait till you hear the shrieks of horror from hikers when they catch a mountain biker on *THEIR* trail.

Anyway, yes please come to trail work. I think you will start to appreciate what goes into trail maintenance. Also, periodically (not sure how periodically) IMBA comes out and does training sessions on proper trail building and maintenance. I think it would be a good experiece (for me as well, I haven't been to it, just picking up fractions of it through osmisis from others that have been to it).

See, I'm too calmed down now and it is shorter and too diplomatic :crazy:

[fasterfoster]

It wouldn't take long to kick mountain bikers out if we regularily rode in the mud. You think we complain? Wait till you hear the shrieks of horror from hikers when they catch a mountain biker on *THEIR* trail.
Anyone who doesn't believe this should ask some of us that helped build and support the mountain bike trail at Terrace Oaks! There were a lot of City Council Meetings attended by mountain bikers from the area just to show our support for the trail, since the hikers and local residents wanted us kicked out completely. Fortunately, level heads prevailed and the hikers and bikers joined forces to thwart the City Councils plan to sell the land and/or operate a golf course!

[ryno lite]

I'm still without internet till Wed. so I haven't read anything since Friday. Reading some of the posts over the weekend have really made me feel helpless. Many people on this site have put a lot of work into the advocacy, building and maintaining of trails and I've always thought we were making headway but some of these posts have really bothered me. I always thought we were gaining trails cause our hard work was building more momentum than the bad habits of the mountain biking community were taking away, but now I am starting to wonder. I still believe and will always try to volunteer, but these people who feel they need to ride wet have to realize what damage that does to the loyal volunteer base. Maybe we are getting sick of fixing their damage while the people damaging the trails are always out having fun while we work. If the mud lovers of the area want a mud section, maybe they can advocate for their own mud park and build and maintain it themselves and stay off our trails till they are dry. I'll tell you what, there aren't going to be many parks that would want a trail for the mudders. To be honest, it's starting to bother me now and I'm sure other volunteers are losing the winds in their sails also. I have yet to ride certain sections that I helped build and they are already damaged by the careless before I can even try them out. It actually just iritates me! It like someone coming over to my new house and ruining all the work I've done there to make it look good. I'm sorry I'm going off, but I am starting to get really mad and disillusioned with the whole bit. I won't let all this negativity stop me though, I will continue to help out, but the careless riders must realize that they are impacting the trail, or advocacy efforts statewide and also maybe most importantly impacting our volunteering base! Use your head, stay off wet trails! Please!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ryno lite]

Sorry to rant again. I know the trail isn't just about me or the other volunteers, but we all feel ownership and we do take careless decisions by people personally. It's hard to be out on a nice Tuesday and watch millions of people having fun while you work and how are we thanked, by people wanting to rip our trails to shreds just because they can't handle the first really wet season we've had in awhile. I just can't even fathom it anymore. I see tons of riders out there yet a couple of weeks back we could only muster 3 people to help at Harmon Park. Seems like we are always able to muster more than 3 people to damage rain soaked trails. Why must the biking community put more time and effort into destroying trails than we do into making trails? I hope we can still gain and maintain trails, but if I was a park manager I wouldn't be too impressed with our biking community. If we want our sport and trails to survive locally, we have to start using our heads. Sacrifices like waiting till trails are dry must be made in order to have riding oppurtunities. Waiting to ride seems like a small price to pay for more riding oppurtunities. We need to shed the advertising images of mtn bikes in the mud. Heck I swear that according to TV that mtn biking is never done on dry trails. I also don't think it's a good thing for the biking community when an event like Cherry Bomb goes on in conditions like it did. All that race (its happened with other races, don't mean to pick on the Cherry Bomb only) is reinforce the idea to bikers that it's fine to ride in the mud and ok to damage trails. Events like that also reinforce the idea that we are not responsible land users to the non-biking community. I look around at all the bad that goes on in our biking community and sometimes wonder how anybody ever grants our group any rights at all! If not for the major efforts of a lot of volunteers, we would not be gaining thats for sure. I just hope that volunteer efforts of groups like MORC can overcome the shelfishness that runs rampant in the mtn bike community!

Sorry to rant forever! I'd like to thank everyone out there who has donated time or money to their local advocacy group and IMBA! Even though I am negative right now, we can make a difference!

[bradpartyka]

Sorry to rant again. I know the trail isn't just about me or the other volunteers, but we all feel ownership and we do take careless decisions by people personally. It's hard to be out on a nice Tuesday and watch millions of people having fun while you work and how are we thanked, by people wanting to rip our trails to shreds just because they can't handle the first really wet season we've had in awhile. I just can't even fathom it anymore. I see tons of riders out there yet a couple of weeks back we could only muster 3 people to help at Harmon Park. Seems like we are always able to muster more than 3 people to damage rain soaked trails. Why must the biking community put more time and effort into destroying trails than we do into making trails? I hope we can still gain and maintain trails, but if I was a park manager I wouldn't be too impressed with our biking community. If we want our sport and trails to survive locally, we have to start using our heads. Sacrifices like waiting till trails are dry must be made in order to have riding oppurtunities. Waiting to ride seems like a small price to pay for more riding oppurtunities. We need to shed the advertising images of mtn bikes in the mud. Heck I swear that according to TV that mtn biking is never done on dry trails. I also don't think it's a good thing for the biking community when an event like Cherry Bomb goes on in conditions like it did. All that race (its happened with other races, don't mean to pick on the Cherry Bomb only) is reinforce the idea to bikers that it's fine to ride in the mud and ok to damage trails. Events like that also reinforce the idea that we are not responsible land users to the non-biking community. I look around at all the bad that goes on in our biking community and sometimes wonder how anybody ever grants our group any rights at all! If not for the major efforts of a lot of volunteers, we would not be gaining thats for sure. I just hope that volunteer efforts of groups like MORC can overcome the shelfishness that runs rampant in the mtn bike community!

Sorry to rant forever! I'd like to thank everyone out there who has donated time or money to their local advocacy group and IMBA! Even though I am negative right now, we can make a difference!
Yes, this person is a fanatic!!!

[gopherhockey]

Rode today at 4:30pm. Outside loop is in good condition. Some wet spots in the beginner loop. The X loop has water standing in many spots. The XX is in good condition. I left the tape up on the upper bypass section - if we survive the rain tonight it could probably be opened back up..

The "Lebanon Prick" (my new name for whomever keeps poaching the closed trails) was out and removed the trail closed tape again. Thats ok, I have a line on who it is and cannot wait to catch them in the act one of these times... lets just say I wouldn't want to be the first person to ride the X loop if there is a trail closed sign up next time around. :fool:

I give up though.. will put up some boardwalks and just make due.

We will have a meeting with Dakota soon on what we can do about all of this and how to get their help (and perhaps some fines handed out!)

[sensorysonic]

Yes, this person is a fanatic!!!

Ryan may be a fanatic. Yeah, he fanatically cares about our mountain bike trails! More importantly, he's a volunteer. Just a regular guy who volunteers and helps the MORC Dirt Bosses. Volunteers like Ryan seem to be an endangered species. We should remember, volunteers like to ride and train as much as everyone else. Volunteers give up evenings and weekend days to work on our trails, while the rest of us are riding and having fun. They have to work day jobs that are stressful, many are married, and some have children, and yet, they give up their evenings to work on trails. So yeah, Ryan should be irate about riders riding trails that are wet; trails that he worked on as a volunteer, on teams lead by dedicated MORC dirt bosses! And always remember, Ryan's a Clydesdale. He's the nicest guy, but if he sees you poaching muddy closed trails. He'll pick you and your muddy bike up over his head, and spin you around until you throw up, then while you are puking your guts out, he'll explain to you why he doesn't ever want to see you on muddy closed trails that are IMBA/MORC certified. :p

[berrywise]

I'm a newbie to the Lebanon trails having only ridden it three times now but I was wondering if it is possible to ride the XX loop without riding the X loop? If we stay dry again today I thought I might head down there after work. Last night I just stayed on the outer trails and never went in to the X and XX sections but from what it sounds the XX is pretty dry, and well its a fun trail so I'd like to ride it if possible.

-scott

[gopherhockey]

I'm a newbie to the Lebanon trails having only ridden it three times now but I was wondering if it is possible to ride the XX loop without riding the X loop? If we stay dry again today I thought I might head down there after work. Last night I just stayed on the outer trails and never went in to the X and XX sections but from what it sounds the XX is pretty dry, and well its a fun trail so I'd like to ride it if possible.

-scottVery good question! I'll try keep this short, but you know how that goes... ;)

No, there is absolutely no (legit/legal) way to ride the XX without riding the X. In fact even more of a problem than riding wet trails is going between trails where no trail exists. When we lay out trails we're often asked by Dakota if we really should "put that trail so close to another trail" and we always promise that no mountain biker in their right mind would skip trail to get to another trail.

Some of our trails do come close to each other and I have seen this become an issue recently. As much as I talk about wet trails being closed, we WILL absolutely lose trails if people start walking between them.

We were also only given permission to do XX level things because one would have to get through X level first - its kind of a safety thing. If Dakota finds out people can skip from Intermediate to XX we'll be in big trouble.

So..... the general answer is no. What I would say specifically to your situation is to go ahead and ride the X loop. It has some standing wet, but should be drying up fast. Many sectinos in the X are beyond repair anyway, in which case we'll put up some boardwalks or get creative... and thanks for being concious enough not to ride yesterday on the X even when the tape had gotten ripped down.

Get out there and ride some XX and have fun!! And if anyone catches someone crossing over trails treat them with 10 times the force you would if they are on closed trails.

I apologize if this starts to make it sound like we don't RIDE or don't have fun... but I'm sure even those who like mud riding can understand why people shouldn't cross between trails.

(I also know this wasn't the intent of your original question, I'm just taking advantage of the situation... hehe)

[syntaxjunkie]

Ryan may be a fanatic. Yeah, he fanatically cares about our mountain bike trails! More importantly, he's a volunteer. Just a regular guy who volunteers and helps the MORC Dirt Bosses. Volunteers like Ryan seem to be an endangered species. We should remember, volunteers like to ride and train as much as everyone else. Volunteers give up evenings and weekend days to work on our trails, while the rest of us are riding and having fun. They have to work day jobs that are stressful, many are married, and some have children, and yet, they give up their evenings to work on trails. So yeah, Ryan should be irate about riders riding trails that are wet; trails that he worked on as a volunteer, on teams lead by dedicated MORC dirt bosses! And always remember, Ryan's a Clydesdale. He's the nicest guy, but if he sees you poaching muddy closed trails. He'll pick you and your muddy bike up over his head, and spin you around until you throw up, then while