Leaning into turns

[Trevize1138]

For our last loop around Lebannon last night we had Shad lead, my friend Andy right behind him and me taking up the rear. I noticed a stark difference between Shad's cornering and Andy's. Shad's a very technically-skilled rider while Andy's got tons of pedal power. This results in Shad getting away from us on twisty, curvy stuff and Andy catching up on climbs.

Anyway, on the first few turns we took through the first intermediate loop I noticed a major difference between the two rider's styles. Shad would dip the outside pedal down all the way, then point his inside knee inward slightly. Andy kept both feet level. Naturally, Shad took the corners faster.

As far as I understand it, when cornering on a bike you want to make sure to push that outside pedal down as hard as you can. I know I heard a roadie once say you wanted to feel like you're trying to break that pedal off!

Another little technique I've been playing around with is, in slower corners, leaning the bike in more than the rider, keeping your center of gravity over where the wheels contact the ground. At higher speeds you don't want to do this! Imagine a big SUV taking a corner at high speeds rolling over because it's center of gravity has gone past the outer wheels ;).

[manual63]

Yeah, this is why you find me doing the little shoulder tuck and dance around trees on the inside of the turn....:laugh:

I try to keep both feet on the pedals and lean into the turn with my outside crank down. I might push like Chris said, but I don't think about it if I do. I lean my inner knee in towards the turn (like a motorcycle racer). This seems to push more weight to the middle and sets up my foot to be released from the pedal if I need to put my foot out, but I don't clip out unless I have too. For me this was hard to do for awhile because I was not used to being clipped in. But I am better at getting my foot out now, so I don't worry.

Slow corners really depend on the situation. I find myself leaning the bike more upright in slow corners so the steering takes effect more. This is especially true when I have to navigate rocks and roots. Another thing to keep in mind during technical corners is that your rear wheel dog tracks (goes more to the inside of the turn than your front wheel) and can run over objects your front wheel cleared. If there is a stick or rock you are trying to avoid and it's small enough, you can sometimes steer the front wheel just to the outside of the object and dogtrack your rear wheel to the inside of it. Basically the object passed between your two wheels and under your bottom bracket.

[Trevize1138]

Maybe the "lean the bike not the rider" technique is better for medium-speed turns, then? I guess I use it based off my raceboard snowboarding lessons. The key to carving nice arcs on a snowboard is to first master the art of pinching your ribs into your hips on turns, so your knees and hips go to the ground while your upper body stays more-or-less upright. The idea being that you get your COG on the edge rather than somewhere out in no-man's-land because that results in an edge that never digs in and a board that slides out.

At low speeds, now that I think about it, it does make sense to keep the bike taller and keep in mind the dogleg effect of the rear wheel cutting closer to the inside.

[GearDaddy]

I think you guys are hitting upon the classic "counter-steering" vs. "body-leaning" techniques of initiating turns. Here is a link to an interesting discussion on the topic. http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?CounterSteering

On many turns I too stick a knee out to the side to initiate and control the turn. This is the natural "body-leaning" way to go through a turn, and is especially effective in slower and steeper turns. Think of the extreme example of a motorcycle racer that completely shifts his/her body off to one side of the bike through the turn. Generally it takes longer to initiate the turn because you have to move your body, which is at a higher center of gravity, instead of the bike.

On quicker and higher speed turns, the turn can be initiated by keeping your body centered and then quickly turning the wheel in the *opposite* direction of where you want to turn. The result is that the bike immediately wants to lean the other way, and your body has to move counter to the bike lean to keep in balance. Since the bike is now leaning, it will want to track in that direction. This is "counter-steering", which some would say is a non-intuitive way of turning (but not experienced riders - Shad I'm sure knows all about "counter-steering"). So, to counter-steer to the left, quickly steer the bike to the right, let the bike lean left, and move your body to right to keep in balance with the left leaning bike.

A classic place to employ "counter-steering" at Lebanon is right after the 1-1/2 foot drop in the first section of singletrack. It is followed by some quick 'S' turns. You can take this section at a high rate of speed if you counter-steer through the 'S' turns, keeping your body upright and then "working" the bike underneath (sort of a bobbing and weaving) through the turns.

[manual63]

This really does depend on speed and the situation at hand. I usually carve a corner, meaning there is traction and I can lean the bike and body. But at very high speed, you can counter steer into a turn and actually lean the bike into the turn more than your body. The thing is that this is usually done if you are slightly sliding a bit and not carving a turn.

The difference would be how you see a road motorcyclist taking a turn vs a dirt motorcyclist. The road guy leans way into a turn and hangs the knee as where the dirt guy counter steers and leans the bike more than himself.

It's about traction for me. Sometimes I will lean hard into a fast turn and then if I lose some traction, I will counter steer and shift my body weight outward.

The reason you counter steer is to keep the back wheel in check. You see, if you are counter steering, it's because the rear wheel is making the turn, not the front.

Oh, and the counter steer is very slight, so if you try this, don't counter steer very sharply. I don't even realize what I am doing most of the time because it is so natural for me. After you try it a few times, you will just feel what is right.

[Trevize1138]

I'm digging up old topics in this section as there are always new riders out there and some of the basics could always use a refresher. Plus, even those who posted these originally have advanced a lot since.

Anyone got some new thoughts on cornering techniques? I recently covered tire width and PSI in a different thread. I know Shad talks a lot about dipping his shoulder into turns. We could always dig up the old "countersteering" quagmire of a discussion. :crazy:

Actually, Shad has a good picture of him entering the Dream Trail going right with his front wheel pointed left. Nice illustration of counter-steering. Shad, care to post? Does it show your veins in that one?

[manual63]

You mean this one?

http://www.shadconcepts.com/images/ShadLHTT_sm.JPG

Yep...that's a counter steer alright. Pedals level and eyes looking to where I need to go. Whoever took this picture is a good photographer. I like how my tires are blurred so you can see the speed. Notice the veins in my arms also.....:D....:laugh::laugh:

[Heuy]

counter steering was covered in Drivers Ed. to control a skid. Its the same technique on a bike. turn into the skid when your rear is trying to pass you on the outside of a corner. This is why its only useful at high speeds. You may not feel it but as i think Shad mentioned the rear wheel is sliding even if yu're not thinking about it. For us Minnesotans that do so much driving on snow it becomes instinct in a car and after a while it becomes instinct on a bike.

The place I learned the most about icountersteering was on a snowmobile. In high school we would race our sleds down the river at 60mph plus and always be taking crazy sprint car style turns. there also you would push with your outside foot to counter the centrifical force of the turn and control how much lateral load you put on your skis and track (in this case tires).

The real cool thing about cornering on a bike is exploiting the round profile of your tires by conscously controling how far you lean the bike in a turn. A few years ago I finally learned how to ride no hands on the road and steer with my body weight by leaning. This is a great skill drill that adds to being comfortable off road.

[drmrboyalex]

The real cool thing about cornering on a bike is exploiting the round profile of your tires by conscously controling how far you lean the bike in a turn. A few years ago I finally learned how to ride no hands on the road and steer with my body weight by leaning. This is a great skill drill that adds to being comfortable off road.

I can do the no handed steering too. It is fun and easy once u get used to it:D

[SpecHR55]

I can do the no handed steering too. It is fun and easy once u get used to it:D

Steering is more body shifting than just turning the bars. Try riding with just turning the bars and not shifting your weight even to resist falling off, I would have to say that it would be hard to keep on the bike.

[drmrboyalex]

Steering is more body shifting than just turning the bars. Try riding with just turning the bars and not shifting your weight even to resist falling off, I would have to say that it would be hard to keep on the bike.

yea it would...im just sayin that i learned to that one summer...me and the neighbor kids were all tryin to learn ridin no-handed and from then on i always liked it and i mastered the steering that way. I realize it doesnt help me that much when im riding

[SpecHR55]

yea it would...im just sayin that i learned to that one summer...me and the neighbor kids were all tryin to learn ridin no-handed and from then on i always liked it and i mastered the steering that way. I realize it doesnt help me that much when im riding

Ya practicing going no-handed is a good way to help your balancing skills.

It definitly helps doing street tricks and jumping cuz you can finely tune where your body is over the bike. (With your hands on the bars of course);)

[drmrboyalex]

Ya practicing going no-handed is a good way to help your balancing skills.

It definitly helps doing street tricks and jumping cuz you can finely tune where your body is over the bike. (With your hands on the bars of course);)

yea it helps until i crash once and then i am completely thrown off on my balance and cant get it right for the rest of the week:p

[SpecHR55]

yea it helps until i crash once and then i am completely thrown off on my balance and cant get it right for the rest of the week:p

Haha....... wear helmet, dont think about the falling part, and do it.:D

[drmrboyalex]

Haha....... wear helmet, dont think about the falling part, and do it.:D

im not worried bout my head:p.....ive got a lot of scars of my elbows and knees and kno how that can be and i dont like pain.:hit: lol

[SpecHR55]

im not worried bout my head:p.....ive got a lot of scars of my elbows and knees and kno how that can be and i dont like pain.:hit: lol

Elbow pads/Knee pads..........:D

[drmrboyalex]

Elbow pads/Knee pads..........:D

nooooooo.....that would make sense:laugh:

[SpecHR55]

nooooooo.....that would make sense:laugh:

Ya don't make this whole no-hander business into something thats easy to fix.
Ya gotta make it as hard as possible.

[drmrboyalex]

Ya don't make this whole no-hander business into something thats easy to fix.
Ya gotta make it as hard as possible.

pretty much;)

[manual63]

There is a turn move I do a lot more now that I am very used to my On-One and the geometry is dialed. In a lot of the quick turns or S's I actually throw the bike out away from my body and into the turn. I keep my body and weight to the inside. It feels really cool and after the turn I just pull the bike back under me. I also do this to avoid small obstacles in the trail....like a rock or root or something. While standing I can just move the bike over and around the rock and keep my body centered over the trail. You have to ride really loose to do this sort of thing. If you ride stiffly, you won't feel the flow to throw the bike out to the side and pull it back. I used to do this all the time BMX racing, usually to block a line and take a wider path....yeah...BMX is a contact sport.