I suck at climbing.....

[manual63]

Some climbing tips please. I am not sure how to position my body and I tend to hunch and lean forward when I climb. Standing and climbing uses too much energy, so I know to stay seated. My thighs tend to burn and get worn out easily.

For you good climbers, how do you do it? How do you use your pedal stroke and what position is you body in? What gear do you use?

[Trevize1138]

Get in shape, fatty.

[Trevize1138]

But, seriously, folks ...

I think for you it's largely a mental thing. I especially notice this on the intermediate loop uphills where I think you allow yourself to slow down too much on some short uphills when you could actually pump over them pretty quick without much effort.

Knowing the trail is a huge help, because then you know to think "Ok, there's this little hill here, but after that is a downhill, so just work for 10 seconds to fly over the uphill, then recover a bit on the downhill."

When you psyche yourself out you'll take the uphills slower than you're actually able to take them, and you'll probably tire yourself out more.

Of course, at Lebannon, the worst psyche job is the long, gradual uphill just before dumping down to the expert loop. For me I have to remember that it's not all soft and hellish like it was when they first opened it last year! Even without that, it's still a long climb. But, it's really not that bad if you remove yourself from the moment and remember that you've got a nice little downhill and then the expert loop, which is technically challenging but largely flat for a while. So, you can beat yourself up on that uphill but still have plenty of recovery time.

[lou1s]

I am far from a climbing expert, but in my quest for dropping friends on the hills, here's what I've found (and I am still working on my technique).

I tend to slide forward on the seat, and usually wind up sitting right on the nose of the saddle. This took some getting used to :sick: . The steeper the climb, the further up the saddle I slide. This allows me to sit more upright, which I feel helps breathing (which I do loudly while climbing). Weight is still kept on the rear wheel for traction, and the front end doesn't tend to rise *quite* as easily. It also doesn't allow my legs to be as extended as they normally are, which helps with the second point.

I read somewhere, I think in a Julie Furtado interview, about "scraping mud off the bottom of your shoe" while climbing. It helps. At the bottom of your pedal stroke, pretend like you're scraping mud or poo off the bottom of your shoe. This causes me to not just use my quads, but my hamstrings as well. When "scraping", you're pulling back and up, which uses your hammies. It took me awhile to put both the push and pull into effective use, my spin was square at first, but it evened out over time.

I did have a problem when trying the aforementioned techniques of forgetting how to steer while climbing, but it came back eventually... :cheesy:

Hopefully that helps...

[Trevize1138]

Oh yeah, breathing! :crazy:

This was a major technique for climbing hills back in my cross country running days. Our coach got on us for not breathing heavily enough while running uphills. At first you think it's a psychological game to play with your opponents: make them think you're not breathing that heavily on the uphills so they'll think "Woah, I'm screwed, he's hardly even breathing!"

In reality, you're killing yourself big time, and the psychological effects aren't enough to counteract the fact that you need air!

[gopherhockey]

I'm going to have to try remember that "poo" technique.. although you might hear me chuckling to myself a little as I'm doing it... hehe ;)

Hopefully that will help with the whole idea of spinning circles with the pedals vs. pushing them or the "squareness" as you mention (which I was told could have contributed partly to bad knees earlier on my first few singlespeed rides this spring)

[Trevize1138]

The first time I ever rode clipless I immediately noticed the benefit I was getting at the bottom of the pedalstroke. That whole "scrape the poo off your shoe" bit was readily noticable. I couldn't believe the traction I got!

[KleinCrazy]

The biggest thing I can suggest to improve your climbing is....

Get a Single Speed!!!!!

You learn physics real fast when you only have one gear to go up hill in.

Momentum, momentum, momentum!!!

Get downstroke and Upstroke Power in nice easy circles.

If riding gears, loose a few teeth and try to ride a little faster. Granny gears are never really needed unless it is a MAJOR STEEP LONG CLIMB.

I have found that I can climb everything in the cities faster on my single and with more energy when I get to the top on my single then on my Adept.

Believe me, when the bike doesn't allow you an easy way out, you learn real quick how to be more efficient.

[s1ngletracker]

kleincrazy has a good point with the singlespeed thing.

The reason that a singlespeed can be an advantage on some smaller hills, is because on the smaller hills it is basically overgearing yourself somewhat. What i do on smaller hills is shift to a little bit of a bigger gear than i feel comfortable with, then just sit or stand and hammer over it. you have more energy this way.

you recover faster that way than if you shift to the granny gear and take twice as long to spin up it.

I trained this spring in Golden, CO so i feel pretty strong at the hills right now. another thing to do is try to pretend you are actually going down a hill :D trust me, dont bash it till you try it :crazy:

[grizzly adam]

I'd also like to add this.....

don't stop when you get to the top! It was said earlier - momentum, momentum, momentum.
Once you get to the top, stay on the power until you are 10, 20 or more feet over the crest.
My cross country ski coach taught us this awhile back and it's amazing the amount of distance you can put on someone just by giving that little extra effort.

I am a firm believer that time is made and lost on climbs, not descents (now if I can just climb like it!). Use the descents for recovering.

[manual63]

Thanks for the pointers. I just got back from Medora and rode that hellish trail with a 40 pound BOB on back. I climbed most of the hills and pushed or had Chris and Andy help me double team the BOB and bike up some of the real steep ones. The last day, after we finished the trail, we did some day trips. Here are the few climbing tips that made my climbing greatly improve.


-The wiping the dog doo doo off your feet tip really helped a lot.
- Also, learning to relax my upper body and hands on the grips while forcing my legs to do all the work helped, but my legs need more training as they would wear out.
- Sliding forward on the seat on steeper climbs does help a lot.

I concentrated on those three things mostly and I was able to stay close enough to Chris and Andy to where I was right on their tail once we got 1/3 or so down the down hills. I did notice that once I got to the top, if I put in a huge effort to get up to speed, I caught up a lot faster on the downhills.

[grizzly adam]

I've never ridden there - where is that?

Glad to hear that you could make a difference! Who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks!!

I was out at Lebanon last night tryin to get myself psyched for Afton this weekend and really paid attention to how I was riding. There are so many things that we take for granted or don't think about. Just the subtle weight transfers we make on the bike, the little movement to the front of the saddle, riding your bike like you're on a trotting horse for the bumpy section in the beginner loop. I think it's great that we can influence other riders to make it more enjoyable for them.

In reference to your comment about relaxing your upper body and hands...... I agree that you should be relaxed and let your legs work, but also there will be times when you should be working your upper body, especially your arms and hands, to help you climb. Basically if there's a tough climb this will help, but also if you're trying hard to keep the momentum, really pull on the bars - pull 'em towards you to get some extra leverage and momentum. This will really help you feel like the billy goat charging up the hill!

[Trevize1138]

Originally posted by grizzly adam
I've never ridden there - where is that?

For your reading pleasure ... when you've got a spare hour or two. :cool:

http://www.morcmtb.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8988&forumid=14

[ostertoaster85]

The idea of shifting forward in the saddle in order to maintain traction on steep or technical climbs is good. On longer climbs were traction is less of an issue, it can help shift back in the saddle. These makes it so you will be using your butt muscles, which is a powerpacked set of muscles.

[Torpedo]

Thanks for all the good information... Beats the pants off of my technique. I just never wanted to get passed on a hill, so when start at the bottom, I start to hammer and dont give up till I'm way over the top.

[stoneage]

Another good tip is to 'hang' on the bars. On super steep middle or granny climbsdrop your elbows and let your fingers hang on top of the bars. Don't even hold on, just loop them over the top and pull down gently. Your bike will smooth out and the front wheel stays velcroed to the trail.

[manual63]

My climbing has improved quite a bit. Most of it is just getting in shape. As I practice more, riding my heavy P2, I find I can push harder and my legs don't get so sore. Some day I will take my Moab 1 to Lebanon and I will be clipped in. I am sure I will fly after riding the heavy P2 on platforms. Actually, using the platforms and good grippy skater shoes, I don't lose a lot of power. Maybe 1/8 of a stroke, but not much. I can push forward, down, and back in the stroke, I just miss the little pull on the upstroke. I can climb fairly well on that thing and I feel a lot better.

I am sure when I take the lighter bike with clipless, I will feel a huge difference.

I wonder, do pros train with heavier bikes ever, then go ride some superlight bike when racing?

[isoemo]

One thing that I try to do on the climbs is use different muscles. But even more dramatically than just scraping poo. If my quads are really tired i'll sit up more and get almost all my power pulling on the upstroke. I really find it to be helpfull at the end of the climb if it's a steep one ya' gotta' be sitting for. Use the upstroke to power out the end and give your quads that little extra to recover.

jordan

[stoneage]

I wonder, do pros train with heavier bikes ever, then go ride some superlight bike when racing?

The pros ride their road bikes unless they are racing. That is why in the middle 90's you didn't see any Americans on the podium anymore. The euro's trained better. The French men and women, including the downhillers, are famous for it. There is no substitute for strength and recovery. If I can gain 30 seconds on a climb at Buck Hill there is no way to make that amount of time up on a descent.

[manual63]

Maybe that's because the descent is only 30 seconds long or less.......:D

[SPR]

Originally posted by manual63

I wonder, do pros train with heavier bikes ever, then go ride some superlight bike when racing?

Back in the 80's I read how riders would fill a backpack with bricks or rocks and then ride the mountains in Colorado. I don't know if anyone does this anymore or not.
My back aches just thinking about it.

[grizzly adam]

Isn't that why the Olympic Training Center is in Colorado? So they can train in the thinner air?

[Trevize1138]

I'm sure training at altitude and strength training are the answers to this. Riding a heavier bike would help strictly in the area of leg strength and climbing, but I would think that to train for a race you'd want to spend as much time as possible riding with the bike and the equipment you'll have during the actual race. If you spend your whole time training on a 50 lb bike and then switch to an 18 lb titanium race bike for the Olympics you'd spend the whole race getting used to a bike that handles entirely different from what you trained on.

[SPR]

Originally posted by grizzly adam
Isn't that why the Olympic Training Center is in Colorado? So they can train in the thinner air?

The new trend is to sleep at altitude and train below.
BTW What do they mean by altitude ? anything over 5280 feet?
Does Minnesota have any place at altitude? :laugh:
Oops, I guess that was discussed elsewhere.

[stoneage]

Maybe that's because the descent is only 30 seconds long or less...

EXACTLY!!! It's a time weighted average. If I crest the hill first, I have a tremendous advantage on the downhill. Like I said; you will never make up on the downhill the time you lost on the uphill.

[homebrewbiker]

Climbing is something I really struggled with last year, I don't think my full suspension bike helps either. And I still have problems getting all of the way up the first steep climb at Terrace Oaks (but now I can at least get up it sometimes).

I would submit that instead of wrecking your back with rocks in a back pack, why not use some weight lifting exercises to improve leg strength? Things like squats, lunges and leg presses should help.

I started a training program a few weeks ago (with weights). I can't see how it can hurt and seems like a more direct solution than riding with a super heavy bike or something like that.

Cheers and Good Cycling!

[socrates]

Originally posted by homebrewbiker
Climbing is something I really struggled with last year, I don't think my full suspension bike helps either.

I find my FS actually helps me in climbs

[Trevize1138]

Originally posted by socrates
I find my FS actually helps me in climbs

Here we go again ...

:eyeroll:

[socrates]

Originally posted by Trevize1138
Here we go again ...

:eyeroll: No not really...but it does :p

[Trevize1138]

Originally posted by socrates
No not really...but it does NOT :p

;)

[stoneage]

It actually does help, from a physics standpoint. Aside from the extra weight of most FS's, the rear wheel is kept grounded by the suspension (the opposite of rebounding from shock). This aids in climbing due to the fact that the wheel is less apt to break free, as the rear suspension is trying to push it into the ground. This works well seated or standing for the rear. The effect of standing while climbing on the front suspension is less desirable, as the bike tends to bob, and weight transfer becomes a problem. Climbing on a steep, loose, rough trail is aided very much by a rear suspension, especially while seated.

[Trevize1138]

This all sounds familiar somehow (http://www.morcmtb.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9122&forumid=9) ...

;)

[socrates]

Originally posted by Trevize1138
This all sounds familiar somehow (http://www.morcmtb.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9122&forumid=9) ...

;)

Told ya Chris I wasn't going down that road again (Thanks Stoneage) :D

[Trevize1138]

Yes, as the link clearly establishes, I won this debate a long time ago ...

:crazy:

[homebrewbiker]

For whatever reason, I still seem to have this problem when climbing where I just lose momentum and sometimes fall over cause I can't get out of those 'lock' in pedals (I have the eggbeaters so it does not work all that well to get out of them before the climb). It generally happens when things get steep at the end of the trail. Would there be any advantage to attempt to stand and push my way up the end of the hill. I haven't really tried the scraping thing. The last time it happened was at Battle Creek on the paved side of the road trying to get up a sandy straight somewhat steep uphill (one of those dirt paths off of the paved trails). I believe I am getting better, but am trying to work up to the hills at Murphy Hanrihan because I don't think I want to fall over on an uphill section there.

Any tips (either training or technique) are appcreciated.

If it helps, I ride a 2001 Rock Hopper FS.

[BrightYellow]

You really should try the scraping of the shoes thing. But, something that might help is to look further up the hill/trail at where you want to get to. Focus on that and not what you are climbing on at the moment.

[manitouman84]

I would just say have confidence in yourself and know you can make those hills. Get some speed up and gear up just as the grade of the hill picks up, then get out of the saddle but keep your weight at the rear to maintain traction, and just know you can do it in your head, dont think about falling. Work on your balance at lower speeds too, that will build your confidence, because I really think that is the key thing. Once you start getting those climbs down youll be rockin.

If you want to teach yourself to climb go The Farm in Chaska, or the Brownie lake loop in Minneapolis, if you can teach yourself to clear those trails I think you can ride most anything in the area.

Think you can, know you can, be the bike :banana: .

Oh and for those that think FS helps climbing thats great, maybe in some freaky way it does? and I do agree in that an FS will help keep a wheel grounded thus increasing traction, but physics also says that the force of the pedals will send the suspension into a bob, thus sending the force into the suspension itself, sucking from pedaling power. But to refute what I said earlier for FS increasing traction, on a good XC FS bike the suspension should be inactive in the pedaling motion anyway, thus the wheel shouldnt be forcing itself into the ground when climbing, and no gain in traction. Correct me if im wrong, I actually think this makes for a good forum debate so im going to start a thread. :D

Ok im off my soap box

[Trevize1138]

Originally posted by manitouman84
Correct me if im wrong, I actually think this makes for a good forum debate so im going to start a thread. :D

Ok im off my soap box

AHEM!

Been there, done that (http://www.morcmtb.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9122&forumid=9).

;)

[Trevize1138]

Originally posted by homebrewbiker
For whatever reason, I still seem to have this problem when climbing where I just lose momentum and sometimes fall over cause I can't get out of those 'lock' in pedals (I have the eggbeaters so it does not work all that well to get out of them before the climb). It generally happens when things get steep at the end of the trail. Would there be any advantage to attempt to stand and push my way up the end of the hill. I haven't really tried the scraping thing. The last time it happened was at Battle Creek on the paved side of the road trying to get up a sandy straight somewhat steep uphill (one of those dirt paths off of the paved trails). I believe I am getting better, but am trying to work up to the hills at Murphy Hanrihan because I don't think I want to fall over on an uphill section there.

Any tips (either training or technique) are appcreciated.

If it helps, I ride a 2001 Rock Hopper FS.

Sounds to me, and I realize this is easier said than done, like you need to actually shift that bike into a bigger gear and really push it. Get some more speed up those hills.

Part of this is getting in shape, but I know another part of it is just mental. I see people shifting into smaller gears way too early, even allowing the bike to coast and slow down at the first part of the hill before doing a slow grind up it. The entry to the hill is where you should pour it on not slow down and let it mentally defeat you before you even get there.

:)

[homebrewbiker]

OK, Thanks for the responses. THey lead to a couple of questions ..


Sounds to me, and I realize this is easier said than done, like you need to actually shift that bike into a bigger gear and really push it. Get some more speed up those hills.

How would you apply this like the switchback into a really steep but short climb at Terrace Oaks (other than taking the cheaters shortcut that completely bypasses it). Doesn't seem like it would be possible to get a lot of speed in that situation, and I would think you would want to start in a low gear.

I would just say have confidence in yourself and know you can make those hills. Get some speed up and gear up just as the grade of the hill picks up, then get out of the saddle but keep your weight at the rear to maintain traction, and just know you can do it in your head, dont think about falling.

I have been finding that with my back, I actually need to focus on not keeping my weight very far back at all otherwise my front end comes up. My theory is that the rear suspension gives more weight to the rear so that it is not as necessary to focus on keeping weight back there.

I can feel that I am getting closer though. Last year, I rode Lebanon and really struggled (although last year it was a much more confusing trail system). I rode it this year and it really seemed like nothing. Last year at Terrace Oaks I could barely make it into the woods up the first big climb, this year I can consistently get to within about 10 feet of the top (I even made it up once early in the season but am having a hard time duplicating this feat). So hopefully these techniques can put me over the top, that, and it is hard for me to get out much during the week, but I do train during the week at a health club with weights, but that doesn't help much with technique.

Thanks again for the tips. And Do stop into my homebrew store if you are inclined (WindRiver Brewing).

[homebrewbiker]

I mis stated something. What I meant to say is that I need keep my weight more in front or my front tire has a tendency to come up on climbs. If I try to keep my weight in back the front end always comes up. I have also tried to sit why up in the saddle and peddle.

Thanks again.

[Trevize1138]

Originally posted by homebrewbiker
How would you apply this like the switchback into a really steep but short climb at Terrace Oaks (other than taking the cheaters shortcut that completely bypasses it). Doesn't seem like it would be possible to get a lot of speed in that situation, and I would think you would want to start in a low gear.

Well, see, I was hoping you wouldn't make that particular point ... :crazy:

In that case, yes, it is a very different technique. Try not to think of your weight being to the front or being to the rear of the bike. Instead, pull the handlebars toward your chest and get your COG down there; lay yourself out over the bike. As for the added equation of the rear suspension (weight and more give) I couldn't tell ya outside of recommending you get a hardtail instead :crazy: Just kidding, folks!


Thanks again for the tips. And Do stop into my homebrew store if you are inclined (WindRiver Brewing).

Mmm ... home brewed beer ... Yes, please. :)

[stoneage]

I have been finding that with my back, I actually need to focus on not keeping my weight very far back at all otherwise my front end comes up.

Hey Wil, from a previous post:

Another good tip is to 'hang' on the bars. On super steep middle or granny climbs drop your elbows and let your fingers hang on top of the bars. Don't even hold on, just loop them over the top and pull down gently. Your bike will smooth out and the front wheel stays velcroed to the trail.

Also, keep your head up. Your ears are what keeps you balanced. Paolo Pezzo is an expert at this. Just look at a photo of her riding single track. She is looking way down the path, leading with her chin. And fitness comes from training correctly. Most cyclists hit the weights in the winter to build core strength, but very rarely touch them in season. Like Eddy Merckx said, "ride your bike."

[manual63]

You know, after watching the tour, I think all I do now is stand when needed and sit if I need some traction or am just too tired to stand. I used to think you needed to stay seated all the time, but not after watching those guys stand and haul @ss!

It's more about just being in good shape than anything else.

[yetirider]

I agree with Shad 100%... (should I be scared?) :embarass:

Although technique is important, the tough climbs really come down to pure fitness levels.

I know back in CA, there were climbs I couldn't do for years until I really started to train for solo races. Then all of the sudden I was flying up them? My technique couldn't have gotten that much better.

When you are out of shape and "huffing-it" up a climb, the first thing that goes out the window is technique! Your legs start to pump from outside, you pull up on the handlebars and lean back... Then, well, you don' t make it!

The other thing that can really help technique for some is to watch others. Go to a race and watch the expert/pro classes climb... It really is amazing what they can do!

[homebrewbiker]

Well, I am not ready to enter the Tour yet but I think I have decent conditioning. When I sitting the whole time going uphill I just don't seem to get much speed, and my momentunm just slows down to the point where the pedaling gets way too slow. I was talking to someone who is a general fitness trainer, and he said that it takes more energy to pedal sitting than standing.

So I think what I am going to try is more standing and just see if that helps me power up some hills, and try to lean over the bike a bit more, and the foot scraping thing to get more of an even "spin". And when I am sitting I will try lowering the elbows and sitting way up (I already sit way up and that has definitely made some difference).

[grizzly adam]

I'm no fitness trainer, but I think I would have to disagree with the whole "more energy sitting than standing". Have you ever tried to ride your favorite trail standing only?? You'll be so tired when you're finished that you can barely walk straight.

Standing uses different muscles than sitting. That's why it's important to be good and comfortable mixing it up a bit so that you can get up the hill more efficiently.

Like it was mentioned earlier, lots of riders coast up to the hill and then start the climb. Why not pedal until your momentum slows you down and then shift to that easier gear. You'll already be several yards ahead of the guy who coasted.

Keep your legs moving. If you can't make 'em move any faster, shift to an easier gear. If they move to easy, shift to a harder gear. It's okay to shift while you're climbing, just don't mash on the pedals and expect a smooth shift. Whenever you have lots of pressure on the pedals its a good idea to let up just a tad when you shift. You'll be much happier than if you don't.

[stoneage]

Sitting is definitely more efficient than standing. That said, there is nothing wrong with standing occasionally to use your hamstrings. Your quads and calves are primarily used for cycling and are better suited to sitting. Triathletes use a forward position on their bikes to take advantage of the hamstrings, because they are stronger due to the running training. It is easier to adopt a 'spin' while seated also. While standing you tend to crunch or mash the pedals. It is a good way to attack a short steep section or a rock garden, but won't be as efficient for the long grind.

[homebrewbiker]

I think my problem is that I need a couple of gears below the lowest one :D

I guess I would tend to agree about the sitting vs. standing thing, although going uphill does seem easier standing than sitting, assumeing you are correctly positioned and smooth enough so that the tires don't start to slip.

I definitely have some new things to try now. I think one of the big things is mental though, I need to get better at telling my legs to shut up and keep pumping until I'm over the hill.

[Trevize1138]

I haven't given much thought in many years about the whole sitting vs. standing issue in mountain biking.

I still remain seated most of the time, but have noticed more and more riders standing up on occasion at Lebannon. I have decided to give standing a chance and see how I like it, even though I tend to pass the standing guys up hills while I'm seated ;).

So far, it seems like it's a good way to gain lost momentum on an uphill, but you do seem to end up expending some more energy doing it. The real question might be if the extra energy spent standing and torquing the bike is more than made up for by the speed you gain.

I think one instance where standing and torquing the bike can really pay off are steeper, shorter hills, like the last two wide uphills out of the park at Lebannon. There, you can carry your speed and momentum from the long downhill better over the little steep rises by standing and torquing the bike.

Shad and I were talking about this one in the office today, too. He says there seem to be two ways people stand on bikes. The wrong way is to stand up and just use the downstroke of your pedal. The best way is to continue to scrape dog doo doo off your feet even while standing, and really work the bike under you with your arms. It's supposed to be a power move to gain momentum, not necessarily an energy-saving move.

So, that's my theory: when used properly, it does use more energy in the immediate time, but done right and at the proper moments it increases momentum and makes the entire hill climb faster and easier.

That's the new theory, anyway. :)

[ice ice baby]

I think climbing is more than anything a mental thing. If a you're approaching a hill and are saying to yourself here we go again, then you probably will get left in the dust by other riders. I like to get out of my saddle and just power my way up. Most climbs at Lebanon are short and if you get the attitude that I'm just gonna attack it and get it over with, you'll be much better off.:banana:

[BrightYellow]

I'll have to agree with Trevice... there is a time and place for standing and for the most part, it is going to cook you faster than sitting and climbing. There are very few places where I would *have* to stand to get up and over. Most of those places are at the Farm!

One place I did notice where standing helped me at Lebanon was climbing that ramp over the big tree. Sitting, I would always go off the left side. Standing though, I can shoot right up and over it no problem.

[Trevize1138]

Don:

Rekonize! ;)

Yeah, you certainly would not want to stand to climb and power your way up a long uphill. That *is* a surefire way to wear yourself out. However, you may benefit from standing and powering over select, small, steep sections of that uphill climb.

Standing and pumping your bike is a move designed to add power and also to accelerate, so by its nature it will burn up more energy. Staying seated is best if the uphill grade is fairly moderate because you can shift to a higher gear and maintain some speed and momentum through those parts.

I know from our Maah Daah Hey experience this year, we discovered that the best way to climb hills that ranged from 200-500 feet of vertical was to throw the bike in granny gear and just grind away. Of course, we each carried an average of 40-45 lbs extra in camping equipment.

But, my point remains: we wouldn't have made those uphills if we stood through most of it. Remaining seated and using granny gear for its high torque was the best and most efficient way to climb those hills. As a result, we may have pretty beat at the tops of some of those hills, but many of them I felt pretty good at the top of.

[manual63]

Can't we just install elevators????

[homebrewbiker]

I know from our Maah Daah Hey experience this year, we discovered that the best way to climb hills that ranged from 200-500 feet of vertical was to throw the bike in granny gear and just grind away. Of course, we each carried an average of 40-45 lbs extra in camping equipment.

I'm impressed. If this is a steep grade I'm trying to imagine the effort required. But I suppose with all of the equipment there is quite a bit on incentive not to stop.

BTW last time I rode Lebanon I thought it was a piece of cake compared to when I rode it last year. Seems like they shortened up the hill getting back into the parking lot. I remember being absolutely devastated by that one last year. It also helps that the trail is very well marked now. Of course, I think I am also in better shape this year.

[Trevize1138]

Originally posted by homebrewbiker
I'm impressed. If this is a steep grade I'm trying to imagine the effort required. But I suppose with all of the equipment there is quite a bit on incentive not to stop.

Well, what can I say. We're studs. :crazy:

The hill that was 500 ft. of vertical was, actually, impossible to ride with the equipment. We barely pushed the bike with the BoB trailer up that one on foot! :shocked: The rest of the hills were around 200-300 ft. of vertical for the biggest ones, and the grade overall was usually pretty mellow with a couple notible exceptions.

We did find that riding was easier than hiking the bike overall, though. So, unless the grade proved too difficult, we pedaled it.


BTW last time I rode Lebanon I thought it was a piece of cake compared to when I rode it last year. Seems like they shortened up the hill getting back into the parking lot. I remember being absolutely devastated by that one last year. It also helps that the trail is very well marked now. Of course, I think I am also in better shape this year.

Bingo! :) You're in better shape. The last hills out of the park haven't changed, so isn't it amazing what a difference in your perceptions being in shape makes?

[Kingbozo]

We did find that riding was easier than hiking the bike overall, though. So, unless the grade proved too difficult, we pedaled it.

I have found that to be true as well. When I was in Wyoming we faced some brutally long, steep fireroad climbs that started at about 8,000 ft. It took less energy to granny gear it and go realy slow than it did to push the bike up the hill. I still have bad dreams about one of those climbs. It kept tricking you into thinking you were near the top. Evil hill!

[manual63]

Hills like that suck. They kind of roll out of view and you think that you are almost to the top, just to realize the road just got a little less steep and then later gets steeper again and keeps going. I remeber climbing MT. TAM, Geeez, I thought I was at the top 10 times before I got there. The ride down was worth the long ride up though......:D........15 MPH speed limit my @ss!

[homebrewbiker]

Thanks for the tips guys. I finally made up the the first steep hill @ Terrace Oaks. A combination of being agressive early in the hill, when standing still scraping my toes and keeping by butt back and my head up when standing up, and just pushing through that final root I did it.

Sadly, about 1/2 of the way into it I had mechanical problems so I was unable to test this technique on the switchabck into a very short steep climb on the advanced section. Hopefully that will get :confused:

[manual63]

We are always happy when we know we help riders out. I get a lot of good info from people here and my riding has improved some. Getting good pointers on how to do things makes a big differnece.

[nicnac]

We are always happy when we know we help riders out. I get a lot of good info from people here and my riding has improved some. Getting good pointers on how to do things makes a big differnece.

I fully agree!
I am not an experienced rider at all so I've found myself looking into the 'tips' section quite a bit! heh
You all do really well to explain things in a way that makes sence....even if I have no idea what exactly you're talking about until I'm in a situation to try it out! i.e some of the tips on riding over logs and going through rock gardens

[pwpatton]

What I found helped alot this year was first of all unless the hill is very steep keep the chain in your middle chainring during a climb. Once you get comfortable there find the hardest gear you feel comfortable in during a climb then shift to 1 more difficult. You'll find pretty soon you are comfortable with that gear and then you can switch to an even harder gear. I practiced this at Lebanon at the long slow climb before the decent right before the expert entrance. I started in 1st at the beginning of the year (don't laugh) and quickly got to 5th gear. All, ofcourse, while being in the middle chainring. Very few people pass me now going up that hill. Being in a harder gear of course increases your speed which gets you up the hill faster and seems to zaps less energy.

Now, my problem has been that I have not dropped to 6th gear as of yet. 5th has been just a tad more difficult than I am comfortable with. I'm really looking forward to trying the scraping dirt off your shoe technique (described in the earlier posts in this tread) to help me from there.

Another thing I've been trying, but the jury is still out on, is keeping my face muscles relaxed during the climb. I read in Bike or MBA that tense face muscles can zap energy. If there is any gain out of this it's not really clear to me.

MBA also listed looking to the top of the hill when climbing (also discussed in earlier posts in this thread). I found this totally phychs me out. Looking to the top of the hill reminded me how far the top of the hill was and not how close (I guess I'm a "glass is half empty" kinda guy). I find looking 10 - 20 feet in front of me works and the end of the hill comes much faster than when I look to the top.

Phillip

[Trevize1138]

Originally posted by pwpatton
What I found helped alot this year was first of all unless the hill is very steep keep the chain in your middle chainring during a climb. Once you get comfortable there find the hardest gear you feel comfortable in during a climb then shift to 1 more difficult. You'll find pretty soon you are comfortable with that gear and then you can switch to an even harder gear. I practiced this at Lebanon at the long slow climb before the decent right before the expert entrance. I started in 1st at the beginning of the year (don't laugh) and quickly got to 5th gear. All, ofcourse, while being in the middle chainring. Very few people pass me now going up that hill. Being in a harder gear of course increases your speed which gets you up the hill faster and seems to zaps less energy.

Halleujia, brothah! He has seen the light! :banana:


Now, my problem has been that I have not dropped to 6th gear as of yet. 5th has been just a tad more difficult than I am comfortable with. I'm really looking forward to trying the scraping dirt off your shoe technique (described in the earlier posts in this tread) to help me from there.

You're to the point now where it's more-or-less a matter of leg strength and conditioning when you're up to those gears. That's about where I find my gearing on that hill these days, but at the beginning of the season it was more around the 3rd or 4th gear range.


Another thing I've been trying, but the jury is still out on, is keeping my face muscles relaxed during the climb. I read in Bike or MBA that tense face muscles can zap energy. If there is any gain out of this it's not really clear to me.

That's good advice no matter what sport you're doing, actually: relax the face! Watch 100 meter dash sprinters' faces in the olympics, most of the good ones aren't clenching teeth and squinting eyes, their cheeks are flapping with each step and their jaws are slacked.

Basically, your face by itself doesn't take a lot of energy from you, but your face does lead your body: if you're stressing your face your body will tense up right along with it and you'll tire yourself out. It's 1/2 physical and 1/2 mental in this regard.


MBA also listed looking to the top of the hill when climbing (also discussed in earlier posts in this thread). I found this totally phychs me out. Looking to the top of the hill reminded me how far the top of the hill was and not how close (I guess I'm a "glass is half empty" kinda guy). I find looking 10 - 20 feet in front of me works and the end of the hill comes much faster than when I look to the top.

Phillip

That's exactly how I am, too. I think some tips are only good for certain riders with certain mentalities. Letting the hill size psyche you out has a huge effect. For a full year after that long gradual uphill was opened, I had to wrestle with myself and force myself to realize it wasn't the same spongy, sticky, slow surfaced climb it was on opening day! It actually packed in rather quickly, but my first impressions remained. With nothing more than a change in attitude I made the difference between grinding up the hill to flying up the hill. :)

[pwpatton]

Originally posted by Trevize1138
Now, my problem has been that I have not dropped to 6th gear as of yet.

You're to the point now where it's more-or-less a matter of leg strength and conditioning when you're up to those gears.


Thanks Chris,

What would you suggest on this? I have tried hammering through this issue but that just made me feel like I was going to have a heart attack: too high of a heart rate and too much huffing. Should I do some outside MTB training like squats, lunges and the like? I saw some suggestions to that affect earlier in this thread.

Phillip

[Trevize1138]

Originally posted by pwpatton


Thanks Chris,

What would you suggest on this? I have tried hammering through this issue but that just made me feel like I was going to have a heart attack: too high of a heart rate and too much huffing. Should I do some outside MTB training like squats, lunges and the like? I saw some suggestions to that affect earlier in this thread.

Phillip

In a word, yes. :)

The big jump for me this year going from doing the hill in 3rd and 4th to 5th and 6th was when I got back from my 90-miles-in-3-days Maah Daah Hey trip over Memorial Day. I got *whipped* into shape.

But, as an alternative to taking two days off work over a 3-day weekend holiday and driving 9 hours out-of-your way, perhaps try mixing it up with some road rides? I'm sure squats, lunges and weight training would help, too ... but what's the fun in that? :crazy:

Building muscle strength is different from building endurance. Seems like muscle strength stays with me longer than endurance, which requires constant upkeep. ;)

[pwpatton]

Originally posted by Trevize1138

Building muscle strength is different from building endurance. Seems like muscle strength stays with me longer than endurance, which requires constant upkeep. ;)

I hear ya there, I was killing my friends at leb for weeks, feeling very strong with lots of endurance to keep it up. I took a week off :embarass: and now I'm struggling to get back to where I was a week earlier...

I wouldn't have thought a week or so could zap ya like that...

Phillip

[homebrewbiker]

There are actual 2 types of strength training. You can do high reps and low weights which definitely helps build endurance and there is high weights and low reps which helps build pure power. For this type of biking you also need some explosive strength which can be accomplished with increased resistance and jump type exercises. Lunges are more of an ednurance.fatigue exercise.

My experience is that combining this type of exercise with some road biking definitely helps. However, the catch is that you need to keep up with weight training because this type of strength can dissipate quickly.

I remember reading one site that suggested that it is important for bikers to keep up with weight training EVEN during the biking season in order to keep tha strength gains they achieved in the off season.

I guess one last tidbit is that it is important to work your way up to the harder exercises like squats. I would highly suggest finding machines that support your back but work similar muscle groups. With a free weight squat if your form gets off you can injure self which is not too good for biking. And stay away from deadllifts, these wreak havoc on your back (at least on my back), even when done with very good form.

And, for all of you beer drinkers out there, there is a beer festival in Minneapolis this weekend Sept 6th (Peavey Plaza). I will be at the WindRiver Brewing booth if you want to stop by and say hi! You can go to www.mncraftbrew.org for info.

Cheers!

[KleinCrazy]

Will!!!!

I'll see you tomorrow!!!! We have group of us that brew adn drink together goign down to the ABR tomorrow. We plan on staying the whole day and probably stopping off to eat something when it's over. If your interested you are more the welcome to join us.

P.S. I just brewed up your Wee Heavy Kit last night and can't figure out how I am going to wait 2 months to drink it... GRRRRR

See you tomorrow.

James

[stoneage]

Another thing I've been trying, but the jury is still out on, is keeping my face muscles relaxed during the climb.

Keep everything relaxed except the muscles you are working with. Relax the upper body by dropping your shoulders and hold the bars like you are trying to pick up a wet ice cube.

[jjrsds]

Want to climb better, ride areas that are hilly. If you can't find multiple hills ride to the top of the biggest one you can find, when you get to the top ride down. At the bottom repeat, going up and down until you can't ride.

[noise_is_life]

Isn't there a way I can be a better climber by going down hills?:)

Wait, yes there is, no more cheeseburgers...