Trail Work - Tuesday, 5/6 - 6pm - BACK ON!!

[gopherhockey]

I am REALLY sorry to do this to you, but we're back on for trail work tonight! (05/06) Some things needed to be ironed out with Dakota, but now we're back in business and even better off than before.

So... we understand if you have changed your plans... however, if you can - we could sure use you tonight! It will be a beautiful evening for trail work, and we want to get this new XX trail open sometime in May if possible.

If you can make it, please do! Remember, meet in the JCRR parking lot at 6pm - look for the dudes with the (trail) tools, and let's get rocking on the trail.

We don't make a habbit of cancelling and re-scheduling trail work like this, it just happened to be an issue that came up last minute (political) - you can learn more about that if you come tonight..

Hope to see you there!!

[Mateo]

Hey there,

I'm new to mountain biking and know next to nothing about trail maintenance, but if I wouldn't just slow you guys down I'd love to come help! Would you have any use for me? Let me know...

Mateo

[gopherhockey]

Yes, we certainly do have a use for you - and thanks for asking! Many of the guys that show up have never done trail work before, and they will all tell you it takes just a few minutes to learn the "tricks" to the basics of each thing we do - rock gardens, trail shaping etc.

It is very easy.. and fun! Many times it is the people that show up to help that get to dictate how various obsticles get built. You get in on the "dirt" on whats happening with the trail.. and if I have my way you'll get some of the first tracks when new trails are opened up. (plus a bunch of other things, like that you get to hang out with cool guys like me hehe) ;)

As an added bonus, you'll find yourself enjoying mountain biking as a sport a lot more once you have become involved in some trail work. I guarantee it!



:banana:

[Mateo]

I'll see you guys there...

On another note... How long should I wait before riding at Lebenon Hills when it rains like yesterday... Could I ride today, or do the trails more time to recover?

Mateo

[gopherhockey]

Another good question!

Lebanon is hard to figure out. I have been there 4 hours after a 6" rain and had basically dry trails... then I've been there 48 hours after a 1" rain and it was soaking wet. I realize this doesn't help a whole lot.

I usually ride Lebanon every other day at a minimum and will try update the trail conditions page as often as possible. Sometimes others get out there and beat me too it. The trail conditions page is a great place to start... but if nobody has updated conditions, I normally do this:

I usually wait 24 hours no matter what. Usually it is a good guess that things should be getting decent by then. No reason to hurry back on wet trails, right? Most might say 48 is good if you live farther away. Some trails require 1-2 full days as a rule, although we have nothing posted like that (yet) at Lebanon.

If the day after a rain is windy and sunny, one can usually count on things being dry quicker. If it is humid out, things seem to take forever to dry out..

If the rain was hard and fast - it doesn't seem to soak in. You can usually count on more puddles, but better trail conditions in general.

If the rain was slow, the trails will be a little slicker but the puddles might not be there.

In an ideal world everyone would just wait 48 hours regardless... but, we all know that when the bug hits we sometimes can't wait... and sometimes we're rewarded with decent conditions.

If you ever take a chance on a trail and it is muddy, you can always turn around and ride on the paved trails for a while... what many people do is they rush it then ride no matter what they find when they get there - those are the kinds of people we try to educate. It never hurts to give it a try as long as you are willing to stay off if they are wet (and of course come back and post in the trail conditions what you found)

This is getting long... sorry! ;)

To answer your question, I'd think you could probably ride Lebanon tonight... but why would you when you can be helping with trail work! hehe...

I'd say conditions would be good Wed. for sure.

[Trevize1138]

What's the chance of the trail being "done" as far as 100% rideable by tonight? :)

I'm impatient, I guess. I'm thinking if we get a decent crew following Bob and Dingo with tools for trail sculpting and just put off rock gardens and other bells and whistles until next week we might get the whole thing sculpted. And, isn't that what ultimately makes the trail rideable?

Of course, I'm speaking from a full 2 hours of trail building experience :P

[martini]

schools done, no more Teusday night classes! I'm going to more than likely be up there Teusday afternoon to ride, followed by some trail work to help get this XX (mmmm, beer!) Loop done. See you guys then.

oh, Chris, I'll bring the trailer, QR and bag too(if you want the bag).

[gopherhockey]

Once again, thank you to everyone for a great turnout tonight - especially after we had temporarily cancelled trail work. Most of you already know we didn't work a lot on the XX loop tonight because we had some other duties to take care of for Dakota County.

You will notice a few changes to the trails next time you ride. Two downhill sections have been slightly altered to try sap some speed and keep people from going 30 mph down fall line trails. This was by request from Dakota and is a temporary measure until we can build proper re-route trails.

We also did a little work on the old expert loop, removing one log and placing a new one at a different locations. Be aware that there are changes in that area as well.

Again, thanks to everyone for the hard work tonight. It was necessary to be completed before we go back to the xx loop, which we will definitely be doing next week. If you can help out next week, we really need it in order to get the new trail done (or at least rideable) yet this month.

[Hardtailforever]

What's the deal with slowing that section down? Take away the speed and where's the reward for all the energy you spend getting there? That's some folk's favourite spot at Lebanon. Riders who can't handle the speed already have and alternative trail. It's called the "Beginner Loop." It's called that for a reason- the same reaon the rest of the trail is NOT called that.

Making people slow down there is the most rediculous thing I've ever heard. If people don't want to go fast, they don't have to. Even Ramsey cty doesn't make people go slow down hills, and they're pansies when it comes to trails having risky sections and obstacles. When did Dakota cty start trying to keep people in a safety bubble?

Super, SUPER weak. :mad:

Also, when did you guys decide to work tonight? The only reason I didn't come was because it had been "cancelled."

[martini]

over-reaction guy!:shocked:

if they had to do that in order for us to keep the trails going at Lebanon, I'm more than willing to slow down a tad. There's something to be said for ability, there's no question about that, but why get so pissed about it? If you want to go fast, get out the roadie and go hit some bluff roads to get your speed need in. 50 mph shouldn't be a problem for you on some hills, that's for sure. And don't tell me it's not the same. I know it ain't.

[Hardtailforever]

I agree that we need to do what it takes to keep Lebanon open, but maybe that should involve us trying to convince Dakota cty that riding the downhills at Lebanon is fun and relatively safe and a lot easier than most of the rest of the trail. Where did this move to make Lebanon "safer" come from anyway?

Lebanon needs more hills, not fewer- it was hurt by the removal of the only difficult climbs, and it's hurt by the retardation of the only real downhills left. It's called Lebanon HILLS, but they seem to have all subtly disappeared over time. While nobody's crying about the loss of the old short Lebanon, it was fast and fun for what it was. Now the only thing left is the boring beginning section and the boring middle section. The positive aspect- the reason there was a Lebanon in the first place- has been removed.

Mountain biking is called mountain biking because of hills. It's mountain biking because a bunch of guys in Marin cty liked to bomb down dirt trails as fast as they could without killing themselves. No matter what you say, that's truely at the heart of the sport, whether it's Downhill, DS, XC or whatever. I'm all about singletrack- as an XC endorphine junkie it's my favourite kind of riding- but not at the expense of a good climb or screaming descent once in awhile. Now Lebanon has become the polar opposite of Battle Creek, which has great climbs and descents, but no technical obstacles whatsoever. Both types of trails are fun, but both are missing something without the other. It's a pity; Lebanon Hills was so close to being a great trail with something for everyone. Now it simply has something for many, just like every other mtb trail in the metro.

Sorry this is long, but I really feel strongly about this (no, seriously... I really do). To me, this is a step back for the mountain bike community in the trail access war we all felt was going so well in the TC metro area. We made Lebanon what it was, and now it's being taken from us- not fully, just the parts that make it close to real mountain biking in the midwest.

And I still think it's super, Super, SUPER WEAK!!! :mad:

[Trevize1138]

THEY called it "Mountain biking" because in Marin County they have this thing called ... you guessed it ... mountains !

This is Minnesota, dude. Ain't no mountains here, just gently rolling, glacial-cut hills. Big, fast downhills just aren't practical (and, this was already discussed in a previous topic: http://www.morcmtb.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8989&forumid=24).

[TrailPatrol]

I am not, repeat not going to get in another one of my defense of the land management agency, in this case Dakota Parks. Golden Rule: They have the gold, they make the rules. :)

Accept Twin Cites riding for what it is, the Great Plains. We're fortunate to have the terrain changes we have. (This from a native of the Adirondack Mountains.:D ) Use our diverse trails to prep for that BIG RIDE, then go someplace and "do it" if that's what rings your chimes. Lutsen is supposed to open on Friday. You could be first on the lift line.

Those who know me know I am more of an off-road "tourer" on fire roads and forest trails up north. Boring? Maybe to you, but negotiating any trail with a 40 pound BoB trailer or panniers on my bike presents a special set of challenges that I enjoy, and I get to get away from this computer. (And the MORC webmaster!!:shocked: )

Above all, and I really mean it...

...Ride safe!
:banana:
Hans

[gopherhockey]

Originally posted by Hardtailforever



Also, when did you guys decide to work tonight? The only reason I didn't come was because it had been "cancelled."

Sorry about the re-scheduling of the trail work session like that - I know we lost a few guys because of that. It was due to Dakota County putting a stop to all trail work just a few days ago... then our trail steward Dale Gundberg met with them and got things back on track for us.

I'm not going into huge details here, but lets just say we could have lost a lot more than the downhill at Lebanon due to a biking accident in the park last week!

So, while I encourage opinions and I do appreciate different points of view, I want to tell everyone that is upset just one thing - we want to keep Lebanon open for biking, not closed to all bikers... (do we not?) Regardless of your belief on how the trail should flow, it ultimately comes down to our trail steward and Dakota County meeting and agreeing on what is appropriate for the park. When a guy gets pulled out of the park like what happened last week all bloodied up and we have Dakota lawyers walking the trails we need to put our strong beliefs into perspective. We aren't trying to make the whole park safer (just look at some of the new sections in the XX loop and realize how lucky we are that Dakota has approved them) but we do want to make certain trouble spots go away - especially those that are pointed out by the people making the ultimate decisions (Dakota County)

I like the downhill too. I prefer more singletrack to one swooping downhill, however. It is the IMBA way to build trails, and whether a person likes it or not it is the way we have chosen to go as it is the only method that gets us "in" with the land managers. We certainly will never please everyone, but we can do our best to try. (just look at the Lebanon parking lot - something must be going right!) Of course I'd love to have Battle Creek & Lebanon connected in one large trail... but unfortunately it isn't that way. (and if it was, we'd need a parking ramp or we'd be in trouble..) ;)

I'm going to say this though - I TOTALLY encourage those of you who are frustrated by changes in the park to show up for trail work. The best thing is for you to get in with the trail builders and see first hand what we're trying to do, ask questions, express your opinions etc. We probably won't keep the fall line trails open forever at Lebanon just because 2 or 3 guys like to bomb down it vs. gaining more trails there and in other parks - but we certainly will listen to ideas on how to make the trails we have and are going to have more challenging. Believe it or not, it can be possible to make interesting trails that don't hammer up and down the fall line... but we need more people to come out and express these opinions then hear what we have to say. Believe it or not, but I've seen more than one individual come in frustrated and leave with a whole new outlook on the sport, and become a good friend and frequent trail crew member.

So... keep up the discussions - it is a good thing to do.. but also keep things in perspective and try realize the political side of what we deal with to get where we are today and where we will be a few years from now.

Lastly - I cannot say enough about how great Dakota County has been and continues to be. Setting aside the efforts of MORC and various individuals who have spent years to get the ball rolling, we now have a park system that trusts us - believes in us! They are spreading the word to others and they are giving us the ability to create new and interesting trail. If I could kiss Dakota County, I would... :kiss:

[Hardtailforever]

There are hills here. The only reasons to cut a steep hill from a trail system is if they are causing erosion problems or if they are unreasonably dangerous and/or unmarked as such.

The hills at Lebanon are neither. I understand cutting some sections because the trails aren't sustainable, because they're eroding fast and can't be maintained without change. I'm totally cool with that, because that's a reasonable reason for calling for a change in the way trails are managed.

However, the downhill sections at Lebanon were NOT experienceing major erosion problems. They appeared to be well designed and sustainable as they were. They were not technical or dangerous, and I could ride my hardtail fast and safely through their entirety. The only reaon Dakota called for the change was because they were fast and fun. I've never heard of someone killed on that section of trail, and most of the injuries I've heard of were minor scrapes and bruises that happen elsewhere on the trail. If people have problems riding down hills, they should have steered clear of a sport called mountain biking. You're more likely to sustain major neck or head trauma doing crossings than on a swift downhill like those. Is Dakota going to shut us down every time someone has a major injury? I'll gladly submit a waiver every time I ride to prove that I take responsibility for my own actions. If I get in an accident, it's my own fault, and it's my own medical insurance who pays. It's not a dangerous area for an extraction, so nobody else is at risk because of me.

I'm not a downhiller. I'll NEVER ride a chairlift to the top of a hill so I can bike down, and I'm insulted that anyone would suggest it as an alternative to riding one or two quick downhills at a local trail. It takes a certain type of thrill seeker and a certain type of bike, neither of which are appropriate for Lebanon Hills.

I've worked on the trails and will continue to do so. However, it loses appeal when you take away the very thing that makes it mountain biking. I don't see why we can't use the few hills we have.

[Trevize1138]

Most of the time, I'd agree with you here about if it's a sustainable trail, there's no reason to change it strictly because it's "dangerous."

However, I don't think you're fully appreciating the political volitility here. I'm not sure if the full details are supposed to be posted, so I'll leave that to gopherhockey to decide if he wants to PM you the whole story or post it here for everone.

Basically, I guess it came down to re-route the trail or we *lose* mountain biking at Lebannon. When you're trying to really expand the sport of Mountain biking and get more acceptance, you have to do everything you can to appease the powers that be. That's the cold, hard facts.

[gopherhockey]

Originally posted by Hardtailforever


However, the downhill sections at Lebanon were NOT experienceing major erosion problems. They appeared to be well designed and sustainable as they were. They were not technical or dangerous, and I could ride my hardtail fast and safely through their entirety. The only reaon Dakota called for the change was because they were fast and fun.

I am trying to have patience with this discussion, however - this statement could not be farther from the truth or have any less thought put into it.

I'll take you out on the trails and show you myself if you want - I'll show you the erosion on the 3 big climbs that we worked around.. I'll even show you erosion on the last downhill that we're now discussing. If need be, I'll have Dakota show you the labor they spend re-dragging gravel back up the hill to make it *appear* like there is no erosion.

This is the very reason we're able to be in Lebanon and be making new trails. Dakota is sick of fixing the hills, they are tired of having to spend money on ever shrinking budgets - and it would have been easier to simply close the trails like Murphy does - either for part of the season, or close them entirely.

To say Dakota doesn't want us to have fun couldn't be farther from the truth. YOu really need to come out and discuss this with the trail crew and you'll be able to make a more informed argument.

Heck, if people get so discouraged that they don't show up to help out, then I feel absolutely no sympathy that the trails don't get build like everyone wants. If we have 12 guys show up and they all have a good perspective on proper trail building and a great love of singletrack, then thats what we build. If we get a few people that have some opinions on keeping things "fun" then we're open to hearing what you have to say - what better place to do it than out on the trail.

Again, don't forget that someone WAS dragged out of the park last week. They had been knocked out and were bleeding very badly. This was not a small bruise, and it doesn't matter what calibur of rider they were. Lawyers will take the park away in a heartbeat.. and so will Dakota if we don't work with them on their concerns.

[Hardtailforever]

Ok, I'll stop whining after this, but I still think this is totally rediculous. They don't stop people from climbing mountains just because people die on them all the time. They don't stop people from jumping out of plains or competing in the pole-vault. Rock climbing, ski jumping, riding a motorcycle... all these activities are fun because of the risk- the possibility (or even likelyhood) that if you screw up, you pay the price. People don't do these things because they're safe. When I get my mountain bike out instead of dusting off my old road bike, I do it presicely because mountain biking is dangerous. The risk makes it more exciting. I don't think anyone can argue that this is what gives mountain biking its appeal.

I don't think my current attitude can be summed up better than what you have under your posts, dude. Politics suck. Suck!

It's sad that we have to bow to politics because our society is lawsuit happy and nobody will take responibility for their own actions. Liability lawsuits are the most rediculous thing about our society. It's sick that people sue restaurants when they burn themselves on hot coffee, and it's sad that Dakota Parks has to cover their a**es by cutting out our downhills.

Ok, I'm done ranting. I'll see you all on the trail :crazy:

[Hardtailforever]

Gopherhockey, you put me in my place. I didn't know- the trail looks damned good. You're right- it looks like there's not a big problem on that section, but I trust you if you say there is.

[gopherhockey]

Originally posted by Hardtailforever
Politics suck. Suck!

It's sad that we have to bow to politics because our society is lawsuit happy and nobody will take responibility for their own actions. Liability lawsuits are the most rediculous thing about our society. It's sick that people sue restaurants when they burn themselves on hot coffee, and it's sad that Dakota Parks has to cover their a**es by cutting out our downhills.



I couldn't agree with you more on this one. The fact that people can even think to sue after wiping out on a mountain bike and that our society will listen to them allow it to happen is very very sad.

And I do agree that making changes solely based on this type of stupidity is a sad thing.

All we can do is keep up our relations with the land managers, and help educate riders that might be out there just waiting for an excuse to make money off their stupidity...

It would really be fun to have you out at the next trail session though... believe me, you won't get ganged up on and your opinions will be heard. Maybe we can even help ease some frustrations by sharing even more of the "inside" story on the history and future of Lebanon and other parks... I'd be honored to have you show up.

:fool:

[KleinCrazy]

Hey all,

I tried to send a reply earlier and Had what I thought was a very well written response ready to go, unfotunatly or Firewall went down and when I went to send it, Ba BYe. sigh


Anyways, everything I had talked about in my letter has been mention now except for one very Important point.

The Trails that you like so much Benjamin and don't want to loose are NOT OUR TRAILS!!!!!!

They are Cross Country Ski Trails. They were bulit and designed for single season use when ersosion and safety issues were not a concern.

This is the Case at many areas around the cities and you WILL begin to see more and more Bike Specific Trails Replacing them and having them shut down to Mountain Biking. We will be losing Trails , that if built somewhere sustainable, would work. i.e. fire roads in the Northlands and Mountain States, Service roads at ski areas etc. But at the same time we will be gaining more bike specific Trails designed to challenge and test a riders skill.

Especially if riders like you have the opportunity to come out and have input on what is built.

I have walked all of Lebanon, probably almost every square acre, and have yet to find a place where we can put in the kind of sustained downhill which I believe you would like without any erosion issues. I would love to put in a singletrack downhill, much like the Cistern Trail at Holzinger which is almost 3/4 of downhill, but land is scare in the areas we currently have access to.


Anyways, I want to thank you for your input and can't wait to work with you out on the trail. I also Like the speeds and technical challenges, but the hoops we have to jump through make it difficult.

Just FYI you will probably begin to see changes at Battle Creek soon also due to erosion problems on the Ski Trails.


L8er

[Don Youngdahl]

Couldn't resist adding my two cents worth here, although I'll admit that at age 66, I'm not interested in going down hills fast, although I haven't outgrown the desire to go "fast" by my modest standards. And yes, I ride aggressively enough to occasionally go down hard when I've encountered a trail hazard that I was careless enough not to see in time.

A previous post on another Forum string related the experience of a fast rider scattering a bunch of boy scouts on a downhill trail at Lebanon. Whether or not the scouts were supposed to be there, safety problems with user conflicts are a reality that park managers **must** deal with.

As for politics being so evil, without the excellent political work by Dale Gundberg and Tim Wegner on the county level, we wouldn't have all those new trails at Lebanon. Politics is life, and life is politics, as political realities dictate almost everything about how we live. If you want to remain oblivious to politics, then you must be content to having no say in influencing the larger issues that shape your activities and your life.

Don Youngdahl

[Trevize1138]

Originally posted by Hardtailforever
They don't stop people from climbing mountains just because people die on them all the time.

Actually, they do. They also block off portions of mountains to skiing because the risk is too high for death or injury. Now, this is to parts of a mountain owned by someone and they do it for liability reasons. As for places where there isn't quite as much legal jurisdiction then, yes, people can do whatever they want.

[Trevize1138]

Originally posted by gopherhockey
I couldn't agree with you more on this one. The fact that people can even think to sue after wiping out on a mountain bike and that our society will listen to them allow it to happen is very very sad.

I certainly agree, in this particular case, that its an example of a "sue happy" attitude getting in the way of a good time.

I tend to speak a little more cautiously, though, when people make broad statements about how nobody takes personal responsibility these days and how everyone's out to sue to make a fast buck and blah blah blah ... The reality is there's a fine line:

One one side, you have people suing for everything and nobody can do anything for fear of being sued.

On the other, you have a society where large corporations and governments can do what they damn well please and never worry about the idea that what they're doing to earn a fast buck is maming and killing thousands.

If someone's being an idiot, not watching what they're doing and cracks a head open on a rock strictly because of that, sure, they could sue but they wouldn't win. I'm sure everyone's heard the outrageous lawsuit stories, but they're almost all urban legends. Totally ficticious. (http://www.snopes.com/legal/lawsuits.htm)

Now, if this person ran into a group of boyscouts and there were injuries abound and this was all due to the county not posting proper and clear "Bikes go here, hikers go there" signs on the trails, a successfull lawsuit against the county can be won. And, you could argue that it'd be a good lawsuit because it would result in better signs and a safer trail.

[Hardtailforever]

Whether or not the scouts were supposed to be there, safety problems with user conflicts are a reality that park managers **must** deal with.

Good result: better signage
Bad result: closing trails
In the case of boyscouts on the bike trails, it's not the fault of the trail, it's the fault of poor signage. Poor signage is not an excuse to close trails. However, it's a great reason to PUT UP BETTER SIGNAGE. I think the improved signage at Lebanon is great, and I don't see any way people can get confused about who's allowed where anymore.
Regardless, this situation is seems to be the consequence of somebody taking a calculated risk and then taking responibility when things went wrong. Not many people get hurt at Lebanon, and most who do either know what they did wrong and accept it or shouldn't be riding there in the first place. A class action lawsuit involving many victims is one thing; a rare or unique accident is entirely different. Remember accidents? Remember when we were kids and people got hurt and it was nobody's fault? What happened to that?!

Actually, they do (close mountains to mountaineers). They also block off portions of mountains to skiing because the risk is too high for death or injury.

The most dangerous mountains in the world- the ones with the highest deathtolls- are still open to climbers and are among the most popular destinations for mountaineering. Also, out of bounds skiing is actually legal in most places, but you sign off liability when you rent your avalanche beeper and shovel. I have gone through this song and dance many times.
You missed the point of my argument. Mountain biking is fundamentally distinct from other types of cycling because of the added risk involved, and that's ultimately what makes it more exciting for most people. If you honestly think the risk of death or injury is "too high" at Lebanon, then I simply have to disagree (and I don't think I'm alone). They're not making us change the trail for our own safety; they're doing it for theirs.

[Trevize1138]

Originally posted by Hardtailforever
The most dangerous mountains in the world- the ones with the highest deathtolls- are still open to climbers and are among the most popular destinations for mountaineering. Also, out of bounds skiing is actually legal in most places, but you sign off liability when you rent your avalanche beeper and shovel. I have gone through this song and dance many times.
You missed the point of my argument. Mountain biking is fundamentally distinct from other types of cycling because of the added risk involved, and that's ultimately what makes it more exciting for most people. If you honestly think the risk of death or injury is "too high" at Lebanon, then I simply have to disagree (and I don't think I'm alone). They're not making us change the trail for our own safety; they're doing it for theirs.

Argue semantics all you want. You still made it sound at first like you could just go anywhere on any mountain any time you want without any prior authorization. Like you said, you can't ski out-of-bounds without prior approval, meaning it's still in large part closeed to the general public. Granted, I don't know much about mountain climbing, but I'd imagine many places have the same rules that apply: get approval before climbing.

Still, it's an apple-and-oranges comparison. We're losing the whole point of this discussion by comparing biking down a trail in Minnesota to climbing El Capitan or skiing the ridgeline at Bridger Bowl. Also, by trying to argue "it's not fun if there's no risk" you're kinda preaching to the choir here. We all love the fun of risk, but we also love actually *having* a place to ride, as opposed to a whole bunch of MORC work for 8 miles of singletrack hiking.

I do agree better signs are going to be a huge help in this regard. Second to that is better trail building, and I think MORC is doing an excellent job in that department. Based on what I saw last night, a *lot* of thought goes into making a trail perform two duties at the same time:

* Be safe for inexperienced riders
* Be challenging and thrilling for experienced riders

If you know what you're doing, you can still get some good speed on that downhill and through several other fast, fun sections. A lot of the trail re-route is visual and psychological, designed to cause your brake reflex to activate. If you know how the trail goes, then speed is just a matter of intestinal fortitude. :cool:

[gopherhockey]

Ahhh... signage. Yes, that silly thing thing that nobody seems to read - but it looks pretty, don't it? ;)

Seriously though, even with what is there at Leb it could be (should be) better. As we change/close/re-route trails sometimes it is easy to lose sight of the big picture if one isnt' careful.

I'm not excusing bikers for being able to read a sign, but it appears that the signs that show only a bike and not a hiker are not enough to deter hikers. We need some "no f#)$(* hiking" signs in certain places. People will still ignore them, but at least they will look cool and will help us make even more fun of those that can't follow signs.

Or we simply do like we did last night and pile a crap load of trees in the way and hope people are too lazy to move them.

I'm not sure if it was mentioned here, but Dakota is extremely disgusted with the hikers at Lebanon while at the same time they appreciate how well the bikers have been doing overall. Now isn't THAT a change from what we normally see.

BTW: we also have some cool signs we hope to use to make things a little more FUN too, like a sign at the top of the park (You are at the top of Lebanon bla bla bla) - maybe even some markers like on "Jan's Rock" etc.

And as always, I wish we could name the trails. One step at a time though.

[TrailDale]

Hi guys.
There are a couple issues that I need to bring up. Though I'd rather not . . .

#1 - SIGNAGE I have 26 new signs sitting in my garage. They identify the LH trails in 0.2 mile increments (singletrack) and 0.5 mile increments (ski trail), and include caution signage when appropriate (like on the main trail where everyone HAS TO ride, to caution the inexperienced riders that there's a hazzard ahead that requires some skill to negotiate). They clearly identify bike from hiking trails. Each trail segment has an alpha identifier and a numeric component to show where you are (or where to send the EMTs). The doubletrack is section AA, the beginner loop is section A, . . . . the 1st expert loop is section N (N-trail - it takes guts - get it???) etc.

Their addition to the system will greatly improve the trail safety, and riders ability to locate where they are. There are LOTS of new riders out there. And many of them couldn't lift their front tire off the ground if their lives depended on it. They roll into logs with all their weight on the front tire . . . like some magical force is supposed to get them over.

The signs have been in my garage FOR OVER A YEAR!. I contacted the County about putting them up, and its been mired in the "new signage task force" and "risk management" department since then. If I don't hear anything by May 27th, they're going up, and I'll ask for forgivemess later.

#2 - LIABILITY With most trail systems, the land manager sets up the trail system, opens it, and if you get hurt riding the trail, the land manager or agency is free of liability as long as they weren't grossly negligent in the trail design (like running it off a cliff and not telling anyone).

With the trails that MORC has built, its COMPLETELY different. Whenever we add a log crossing, or a narrow bridge, or a rock garden, or a drop-in - something that was not there naturally and is "man-made" (sorry ladies - but we haven't had any female trail workers this year at LH) then WE now have taken on some responsibility, and if there's an injury and lawsuit, the burden of proof will be on US and we will have to prove that:

1) we were not negligent in the design (which is why all our bridge construction diagrams are approved by the County engineer prior to construction)

2) the obstacle is not unusual for a bike trail of the posted difficulty (which is why we we are building our stunts to the "Level 3" standard established by the Whistler British Columbia trail standards manual) (level 3 out of 5). Our X and XX loops are actually only level 3 trails. Level 4, which we are not using, includes things like coffin jumps, mandatory air (jump or auger in) and bridges way up in the air.

3) that we provided safer options for riders that find themselves in over their heads (like bypasses around elevated bridges)

4) that we did not intentionally construct or add known hazards (which is why our jumps will be table tops instead of double jumps - the "skill challenged" can roll the table, and hot shots can air it out - and we've accomidated the needs of both riders, without using an unnecessarily dangerous double jump).

Interesting asside: I saw a racer in the Cactus Cup in 1997 come up short on a double jump in the dirt criterium, and snap his Ellsworth hardtail in two at the head tube and at the bottom bracket. Both the bike and the rider were hauled away in the prone position. Worst crash I've ever seen.

5) that when a documented danger on the trail was brought to our attention, we did not ignore it, but were proactive in addressing it, and that we have a history of being proactive (the rock incident falls under this one).

And I'm sure there will be many other potentially ugly legal issues if or when someone gets really wadded up.

If we built trails with NO logs and NO rocks and NO bridges, then the lawyers couldn't touch us. But as soon as we add these things to a trail, the door to hell is cracked open. And frankly, I've grown rather attached to my bike, home, retirement savings, kid's college fund, and personal possessions - all of which would be fair game in court, because my name is all over these trails.

So you want a more challenging trail? First, get elected to a board position with MORC, then make a list of everything you (and don't forget your spouse) own, and then decide how much of your family's future you are willing to risk. It's not about risking a broken bone or two - its about some idiot with no business riding what he was riding, looking to make you financially responsible for his poor judgement.

When McDonalds has to pay a million $ to an old lady who spilled coffee in her own lap, anything can happen. So don't get me started on the bazillions of dollars and "soft money" that the Trial Lawyers Association contributes to the Democratic Party . . .
*No politics allowed on this site*

The CYA never ends.
Basically, it takes about two hours of behind-the-scenes work, to allow for each hour of on-trail work. I recently changed from a 4-inch 3-ring binder for Lebanon Hills paperwork and documentation, to a new 6-inch binder. Pretty sick, huh?

Some day, I'm going to get me a new bike and go for a ride or two. I think I'll name my new bike "Sue".

Dale G

[gopherhockey]

There you have it. When Dale chimes in, it puts a lot of issues to rest thats for sure. If nobody is familiar with Dale Gundberg, he is the trail steward at Lebanon and has done a TON of work long before a shovel was lifted (along with Tim Wegner, his partner in crime).

If you see either of these guys on the trail, give them your thanks for all their hard work. I know that there have been many volunteers that have put in a lot of time on the trails, but Dale & Tim have gone above and beyond and they continue to do so.

As you read Dale's words, you see how complex things can be, yet how organized he is. You see that the bases are covered, and when you are on the trail working with him you feel confident in all decisions made.

It is a scary thing to think someone may someday sue someone.. anyone for anything. However, I feel more confident in the things that are done at Lebanon than I do getting out and driving to work in the morning. Nothing is taken for granted, and everything that is done is done for a reason... it is easy for us to argue about this and that, but lets keep it in perspective... (and Dale certainly helped do that!)

All hail to Dale (and Tim) - thanks for the info and your continued efforts. Anyone who wants to complain about what they have done thus far or plan on doing at Lebanon will have to answer to me first, then a long line of others ;)

:fool:

[martini]

A-fukin'-men!

Thank you Dale, for putting it so succinctly. But Long.

Yes Lawyer's suck. Yes the fact that our soceity is so litigous sucks. If there wasn't so much freakin' money in it, there probably wouldn't be as much of a problem.

The trails we are building and riding on are for lack of a better term private property. The Property of Dakota County(limited litigous defense abilities). They gave us permission to biuld and ride there, and if things go the wrong way, they can just as easily take that permission away. Trails out west(oh, say Colorado and Montana) are 99% on PUBLIC national forest service land, relieveing stressed small municipalitites of the burden of litigous defense. You hurt yourself out there, not many lawyers will sue the Fed.

HTF, you owe it to yourself to come on out to Lebanon to build for night or two with these folks, see what this all entails. You say that you've done some maintinence, but at what level and where? Sites like Lebanon require specific planning, not jsut fly-by-the-seat planning.

[socrates]

Originally posted by martini
The trails we are building and riding on are for lack of a better term private property. The Property of Dakota County(limited litigous defense abilities). They gave us permission to biuld and ride there, and if things go the wrong way, they can just as easily take that permission away. Trails out west(oh, say Colorado and Montana) are 99% on PUBLIC national forest service land, relieveing stressed small municipalitites of the burden of litigous defense. You hurt yourself out there, not many lawyers will sue the Fed.


I agree completely with what John has said...having lived in 3 different states over the past 10 years I can tell you all park systems are cautious to open their parks to Mtn bikes for a few reasons which mostly comes down to lack of understanding and liability issues. Yes politics sucks.....but be glad you live in MN...while MI has a 10-15 year head start MN is much further ahead of northeast Ohio where very very few trails are open to mtn bikes and the ones that are are mostly old canal boat paths which are similar to rails-to-trail paths.

PS. if you think lawyers are afraid of suing the federal government I suggest you check the court docket for any given federal court....lawyers always include any and all deep pockets

[Hardtailforever]

I suggest you check the court docket for any given federal court....lawyers always include any and all deep pockets.

True enough, but for better or for worse, it's tough to actually beat the Federal Govt in court over liability issues, especially stupid accidents that happen out in the woods.

BTW...
... I don't know much about mountain climbing, but I'd imagine many places have the same rules that apply: get approval before climbing.

All you need to do to climb in most places is sign in at a ranger station so they know when to expect you back. It's actually pretty scary; you see idiots with no buisiness up on some of those mountains. At least people usually respect the "experts only" signs on mountain bike trails, since it's harder to hop a log than just walk uphill. They're challenging and dangerous in different ways, but people do them both for the same reasons, that combination of endorphines and adrenaline. :shocked:

[SPR]

Maybe we should install some emergency phones along the trails as well.:laugh:

[Trevize1138]

Originally posted by SPR
Maybe we should install some emergency phones along the trails as well.:laugh:

I think you should have people take a stupidity test before riding the expert loop. Nothing fancy, just have them answer one question:

Which is heavier?
A) 1lb of water
B) 1lb of lead

:D

[unstuckpilgrim]

Yes, those trails out there at Lebanon are quite dangerous. I was out there yesterday and it appeared that some crazy bmx kids had put some logs piled up across the trail. I tried to jump over them but fell and hurt my bum. Unfortunately, when I tried to phone my lawyer he said he is all booked up with tobacco company claims.....

[TrailPatrol]

Originally posted by Trevize1138
Which is heavier?
A) 1lb of water
B) 1lb of lead
:D

...Yes!

Ride safe,
:banana:
Hans

[gopherhockey]

It also appears there are a lot of people riding lately that are relying on their brakes a bit too much. Lots of skids into the corners, many people bombing right through some corners off into the trees. There are a few "new routes" forming in the expert loop that will need to be addressed as well.

Maybe its you guys with your 40+lb. downhill bikes, you can't make corners that sharp.. right? hehehe...

(just kidding)

[unstuckpilgrim]

Well, I can say that my girlfriend isn't guilty of any of the skidding. She can't build up any speed to have to rub off. Girls are nice to nature......

[Hardtailforever]

Which is heavier?
A) 1lb of water
B) 1lb of lead


:o
Sure 1lb lead = 1lb H2O(l), unless you take into account relative density vs gravitational pull. They are only the exact same thing here on earth, and technically only at sea level.

Materials of differing densities exact different attractive and repulsive forces on each other under differing physical and chemical conditions. It would be better to use measurements in Kilos (a measure of relative universal mass) instead of pounds (a measure of weight here on earth).

:crazy:

[Trevize1138]

OK, you can't ever ride Lebannon again.

[Hardtailforever]

Lots of skids into the corners, many people bombing right through some corners off into the trees. There are a few "new routes" forming in the expert loop that will need to be addressed as well.

One of these I believe is the result of trail design. There's a rather large crossing that's well ramped and would make a great jump were it not for the fact that the trail takes a 90 degree left turn about 1.5 bike lengths after the logpile. I know you know the spot. It's fun, but it either requires careful, difficult and slow crossing of the logs or an immediate power break after landing an otherwise smooth jump. My first time out this year nearly put me strait into the trees there, and it's obvious that more than a few folks have ended up just going strait or crashing. We need to put some logs or sticks accross the edge of the woods on the other side or something as an obvious warning to people coming hard into that logpile or we really will end up with an alternate rout forming there.

Maybe a few of us could hit that on Tuesday before we start on the XX loop. I'll be bringing my bike and riding before hand, so I'll swing by there and take a look.

BTW, calling it the "XX" loop is going to have this site blocked by child safeguard software soon. :banana:

[Hardtailforever]

OK, you can't ever ride Lebannon again.

I've been studying for finals all day. I couldn't help myself. My mind is fried, like state fair cheese curds... Mmmmm, cheese curds...


...I am slowly going crazy, 1-2-3-4-5-6-SWITCH!
Cazy going slowly am I, 6-5-4-3-2-1- SWITCH!
I am slowly going crazy, 1-2-3-4-5-6-SWITCH!
cazy going slowly am I, 6-5-4-...

wheeee!

[gopherhockey]

Yea, I know the section you are talking about - sometimes the skids are excused ;) The places I have lately been noticing, however, are on some of the more flowing lines as you are exiting the expert loop.

Something definitely could be done at the spot you mention though - we looked at it the other night and notice a real deep rut is forming. That log is (if I'm thinking of the same one) my favorite though - I like the tight turns that require more than one skill at a time (i.e. log, brake, turn)

[Trevize1138]

That log's pretty funny. Shad said the first few times over he got locked in a nose manual because he was too happy on the front brake. He was fighting between a need to slow down before hitting the woods, a need not to hit the brakes too hard to avoid endo AND a need to turn!

I've learned to slow down a little more beforehand and drag my rear brake over the log. Fastest way, it seems.

[Hardtailforever]

My second time out there this season, I hit that logpile moving pretty fast, jumped it and was in the air before I realized the trail turned. I stopped dead upon landing (barely any skid) and did a perfect trailstand for a few seconds before making the turn. It was probably the coolest move I've ever pulled at lebanon. My riding buddy thought I did it on purpose. Of course, next loop around I endoed embarrassingly on the next (much, much smaller) single log. I rule!!!:cool:

I guess my point is it's probably a good idea to put some sticks or debris there so people know the turn is coming; like John said, the last time I was out I noticed that there's sort of a clearing forming there.

As for the flowing lines at the end of the expert loop, I guess I'm not sure what you mean. The only other sections I'd noticed were towards the beginning of the first section of singletrack. Show me on Tues, eh?

[Trevize1138]

So, had to revisit this thread because yesterday I took a break from trail building to finally ride Lebannon for the first time in some two weeks! (oy, I feel outta shape ...)

After riding the new circumvent to the downhill, I had this thought:

To all those who complain about not being able to ride the downhill section fast ... USE YOUR FREAKIN' LEGS, YA PANSIES!!!

Pump those pedals a couple good, hard times after leaving the new section of trail and you can get going just as fast as you used to. :etard:

So, if anybody sees someone out there moving the logs and rocks so they can bypass the new bypass, sweep the legs! It's where they're weakest ;)