Raft Update

[dennis porter]

The raft will be put in after we do a little maintenace to it. The guides that the ropes flow through need to be replaced and we need to look over the barrels to see if there is any water in them.
Expect a notice soon on when we set the Raft adrift.
Also, I would love some ideas for some kind of a sign saying 3 people maxium on the raft. Last year some of the barrels filled with water and there was no visible damage to them. We couldn't figue out what happened. So, they were replaced anyway. About a week after the Raft was put back in, I saw a group of riders try to get about 6 people on the Raft. The thing was barely out of the water. So, maybe the water that got in the original barrels came from too many people on the Raft. Hence a need for a sign. Putting signs on the trees they may not get noticed. On the Raft, signs may get covered with mud. Whatcha got for ideas? A Raft marshall?
Dennis

[TrailPatrol]

Okay there, hombre! Ahh'm the raft marshall in this here town, and this raft isn't big enough for the both of us. So, ahh'm givin' you 'til sunset to git out of Dodge...

Hmmm. Not quite the right approach, me thinks.

We are trying to get patrollers on the River Bottoms. It may not be the entire solution, but it may help.

Wish we had a "Smilie" with a cowboy hat! :D

Ride safe
:banana:
Hans

[gopherhockey]

Raft ideas.. I'm going to pi$$ off some people here, but I hate the raft. There, I said it. I hate the raft! (whew... I feel.. free almost..) :banana:

What don't I like? I hate waiting for slow people to get accross and for slow people to come back towards me. I hate making people wait becase I'm slow. I hate standing in line getting bit by bugs and losing the flow of the ride. I hate seeing MORC have to put in too much effort to repair it each year. I hate getting my gloves all wet and muddy. I hate trying to keep my gloves clean by taking them off only to drop one overboard <sigh> I hate rainy days in April that keep me from riding the trail. I hate those drivers who... er... oops, I digress....

Ok, enough hate from me. I prefer the raft to nothing, and if it is the only semi-legal way to keep something there to cross, I'm 100% for it. I know it is fun for some people to go over it too, maybe even brings some kids out to ride there just so they can go over the raft.

I'll ask just one last time, however.. isn't there an alternative? Can someone accidentally help mother nature (or God) tip a nice big tree accross the creek - just big enough and long enough to walk over? ;)

I know a lot of work went into it though, so you can count on my support in whatever is decided.

[jjrsds]

Paint "Max number of riders 3" on the top of the raft itself. Nice bright paint. That may help in addition to having signs.

[SickBoy]

I think signs on either side of the trail would be fine.

and John - we used to have a wonderful tree bridging that creek... wonderfully dangerous...

I would be all for helping build a bridge that we could take down there and put in. Problem is, I think the gap is too large for one without some sort of support in the middle of the creek. I'm sure there are logistical reasons why that wasn't done before....

[BrightYellow]

Couldn't you make a stencil and spray paint "3 Riders Maximum" on the top of the PVC pipes (rope guides). I don't remember them getting too dirty.

[gopherhockey]

Originally posted by SickBoy

and John - we used to have a wonderful tree bridging that creek... wonderfully dangerous...

I would be all for helping build a bridge that we could take down there and put in. Problem is, I think the gap is too large for one without some sort of support in the middle of the creek. I'm sure there are logistical reasons why that wasn't done before....

Yea, I have heard stories of a few people falling in from that tree, although I do hear a number of people saying they miss it.

We discussed options at a meeting one time - a bridge, a pontoon raft, rope bridge, another tree etc. Seems there are so many rules & regs that we're lucky to have the raft the way it is, so I don't want to cause too much of a stir.

It is too bad though, I think there would be plenty of people willing to help put in a bridge of some kind. We had thought about using utility poles or something like that.

Oh well... yea, I think some signs would help, but if they get ignored as often as they do at Lebanon we'll be doing nothing more than buying time before the same thing happens. (maybe at least it would get the raft through the season)

At least if there was a sign, people wouldn't feel too put off if the people on the raft didn't wait. However, I see the potential of larger bottlenecks due to more trips necessary to get to the other side. If the wrong person were to end up stranded there waiting more attention could get put on the raft by complaints to the city etc.

[martini]

Originally posted by gopherhockey
We had thought about using utility poles or something like that.

I was gonna suggest utility poles, but they may be a tad short for this crossing. I used them in a desgin for two bridges a the ney Environmental Learning center near my home in Henderson, and they worked out quite well. A Utility out of Jordan donated the poles, and we built them up(railings and all). They're designed to let skiers, hikers and snowshoers across, but not snow machines or ATV's. I'll have to go get pictures of them sometime soon here. Maybe today?

[Trevize1138]

I think there are a number of things you can do to improve the raft currently:

*Safer ladder/steps down to it. I'm afraid I'll end up with a broken ankle one of these times!

*Suspended towing rope. Keep it out of the water so you don't have to worry about soggy, dirty gloves.

*A bigger raft that's actually a bridge. :crazy:

*Some sirens on a rock calling out, tempting you to dash your raft on the rocky waters around them ...

*The sound of dueling bajos in the nearby brush ...

I would like a bridge there instead. That would be far superior to the raft in many ways, even if it's a simple rope suspension bridge with wood slats. I think that'd be plenty feasible.

I, too, remember the big tree. It worked pretty well, but woah, daddy! Don't look down!

[gopherhockey]

How about something like this:


http://images.local.ie/site/cats/tourism_and_travel/features/carrick_a_rede.jpg

http://rockycrater.home.mindspring.com/graphics/ropebridge2.jpg

http://wwwrses.anu.edu.au/NWP/1996/updates/sepik-bridge.GIF

[Trevize1138]

*drool*

That'd be sweeeet! Just don't hook a handlebar on the sides ;)

[dennis porter]

Yes, the Raft is a pain. However at this time the whole trail paving issue is the thousand pound Gorilla that prevents us from any alternatives. One of the reasons we put the Raft in was to keep from people cutting trees down. The problem with cutting trees down are.... the banks or the creek will erode faster, it's not good to cut down live trees, they will wash away because it's a flood plain, and they might not fall where you want them too when they get cut. The utility pole idea was brought up last year and because of the width appox 75 ft it didn't go to far. Plus, getting them down there and of course .. a flood could take them out too. Someday in a perfect world we'll be able to keep the trail natural and have a nice bridge. If we can keep getting more MORC members we can get more non-partisan political clout in our fight against a paved trail. Land managers and politicans listen to groups with many members. Painting the guide tubes is a great idea.

[gopherhockey]

Dennis brings up some great points here. Knowing there is pressure from all around to do silly things like page the trails, we need to get our membership to grow so we have more pull with things like this. Joining MORC is more than just a donation toward the cause of gaining and maintaining trails (and free socks) - it gives us a better voice in the area.

Knowing an alternative isn't in the cards for the near future, I'll turn the issue back to the raft...

...and just dream about something else soemday ;)

[Don Youngdahl]

I was involved in some of the engineering analysis of a utility pole bridge, and it's simply not feasible for the simple, flat bridge style we had envisioned, and have installed elswhere on the trail.

I've also thought of real stairs, with flat steps 6 or more inches wide, unlike the tricky steps I installed several years ago.

Are there any carpenters out there? If someone with better carpentry know-how than me could design stairs & get a good cost estimate for materials, I think it would not break the MORC budget, but I can't promise anything until the Board sees some numbers.

I have a boat available to haul the materials down there, so that should make a stair building project easy to do on a summer evening with a half dozen helpers.

OK, the ball is in someone's else's court. You provide the building know-how, MORC & I and a work crew can provide the rest.

Don Youngdahl

[KleinCrazy]

I know we try to stay away from them, but if we can find a way to attach them and make them stay in the bank, we have thousands of Barrel size pallets at work. Maybe 1 1/2 feet square, 5 inches high very solidly built (of wood however).

If anyone thinks these could be of use I could talk to managment about about getting a couple dozen of them donated to the Club.

Let me know

[halls]

The idea of a raft or suspension bridge would be great. The river bottoms can take some serious hits from flooding every now and then. which is the best reason to never pave the trail, blacktop and flooding don't get along. I don't how feasible either would be but i do know the old raft works good if used properly and if some steps were installed things would really be easier. I also like the idea of some kind of sign informing folks on the rider limit for the raft. :alien:

[SickBoy]

So is 75 feet the estimated/measured gap for the creek or is that the estimated length of the needed bridge? (counting overlap)

And how tall are common utility poles? There's gotta be something out there that's 75 feet long and strong enough to support people traffic....

As for keeping ATV/snowmobile traffic off the bridge, if you built rails on both sides of the bridge (right up to the end of it) and then buried a large log/pole squarely in the middle of the opening on either end (which could be walked around) it'd keep motorized traffic off the bridge.

The trick, of course, with this, is to get these extremely long objects at an extremely low cost.

But, I agree with the thousand pound gorilla issue. Bigger problems present than the raft situation.

[gopherhockey]

How about for steps, we do something like this (as seen on IMBAs web site):

http://www.imba.com/resources/trail_building/images/raft_detail.jpg

Just bury some logs in a way that creates more of a natural step system.

We might not have the right grade or the right soil for it... but it sure looks more natural than built steps. It is hard to see, but at the very bottom where getting onto the raft they have a small dock. That might be tough, since the water level seems to vary quite a bit.

[BrightYellow]

It is kind of nice how they have the rope out of the water on that picture...

[gopherhockey]

I agree. I'd probably like the raft 110% more if the rope wasn't soaked up by sand & water.

[Burke]

The key to not hating the raft, is to take off your gloves before pulling yourself across. Tuck them under your riding shorts, or stuff them in your back pocket. Odds are you won't lose them, and your quick to dry skin will thank you that you didn't soak your gloves.

That said, if we could keep the rope out of the water and account for the varying water levels, I'm all for that...

[Elkman]

I agree with the idea to install better steps. The pallets on the east side of the creek are pretty hard to negotiate with bike shoes -- I always get the feeling I'm going to miss something and tumble down into the river. The ladder-like steps on the west side are a little better, but spaced kind of far apart.

As far as paving the river bottoms is concerned: I posted a rather long discussion about this at http://www.elkman.net/mnriver.html which lists the different parties who have plans for the river bottoms trail. I posted that in response to the Wildlife Refuge's management plan that was proposed last year. Essentially, the DNR has been studying having a paved trail down there, while the Wildlife Refuge would just like to see an end to conflicts between mountain bikers and hikers. Of course, to the Refuge, eliminating these conflicts means banning mountain biking. The City of Bloomington would like to see the mountain bike trail continued because they think the trail is an asset to the park system.

I was on a DNR advisory committee that used to meet every month or two to discuss alternatives for the State Trail. However, that committee hasn't met to discuss the Bloomington area for some time now. I'm not sure why.

[Trevize1138]

How much of an attempt has there been to get bike shops and bike-related businesses involved in this whole thing? Seems to me there's still an inaccurate view out there that mountain bikers all have at least 15 piercings and tattoos everywhere and would love nothing more than to knock down every hiker they see on the river trail and yell "Anarchy in the USA!"

I think people would start to change their tune somewhat if they started seeing that, really, it's a pretty damn yuppie sport and a lot of local business money is tied to it.

[gopherhockey]

Originally posted by Burke
The key to not hating the raft, is to take off your gloves before pulling yourself across.

Yea, after losing a glove, I found out it is best to put them somewhere safe.

However, dry hands doesn't solve other things, like the wait, or just my generally not wanting to stop riding in order to play on the water hehe. If everyone would just move over and ferry me accross when I get there, then I won't hate the raft ;)

There are actually people out there that act like that.. sadly... I on the other hand usually get stuck helping a family of 35 cross with their 70lb. bikes... :shocked:

[gopherhockey]

Originally posted by Trevize1138
mountain bikers all have at least 15 piercings and tattoos everywhere and would love nothing more than to knock down every hiker they see on the river trail and yell "Anarchy in the USA!"


Yea, the riders I know probably have 5 piercings tops.. and none where you can see them even. OUCH! ;)

Unfortunately the river bottoms trail is one of the only trails in the area where I do meet inconsiderate riders. There is a particular group of hammer heads that often fly through there with little or no regard to hikers or fellow bikers.

If we were to make a point about bikers, we'd have to try figure out a way to get these guys to grow up. (I hear it is a group of cyclecrossers training out of a local shop in the area - but thats just a rumor)

There will always be a few bad seeds.. but, in general I do think most bikers deserve a much better rep than they have.

[London]

I remember the log as well... fun times.

[Trevize1138]

Did anybody actually ride on the log, or was that just an urban myth? I've only ever *heard* of people riding across on that log, too, but not witnessed.

[TrailPatrol]

Originally posted by Trevize1138
there's still an inaccurate view out there that mountain bikers all have at least 15 piercings and tattoos everywhere and would love nothing more than to knock down every hiker they see on the river trail and yell "Anarchy in the USA!"

For the record, and you can quote me on this: I have no piercings, no tatoos and gave up on anarchy after Chicago in '68. It doesn't work.

Ride safe,
Hans

[SickBoy]

Originally posted by gopherhockey
Yea, the riders I know probably have 5 piercings tops.. and none where you can see them even. OUCH! ;)

Unfortunately the river bottoms trail is one of the only trails in the area where I do meet inconsiderate riders. There is a particular group of hammer heads that often fly through there with little or no regard to hikers or fellow bikers.

If we were to make a point about bikers, we'd have to try figure out a way to get these guys to grow up. (I hear it is a group of cyclecrossers training out of a local shop in the area - but thats just a rumor)

There will always be a few bad seeds.. but, in general I do think most bikers deserve a much better rep than they have.

NOT a rumor... They're a bunch of roadies doing off season training and since they don't MTB at any point during the rest of the year they could care less about what happens to that trail, because they'll still ride it even if bikes are banned from it.

Oh yeah and they ride for a shop which sits near 27th and Lyndale and has the same last name of Homer Simpson's neighbor. (HINT HINT)

[TrailPatrol]

...they don't just ride the River Bottoms. I have run into (or more accurately, been run over by) the boys from Fl@*#ers on the north LRT trail and the Cedar Lake Trail. Boy, I actually wish I were a ranger again.

Later,
:banana:
Hans

[Nita]

I've just moved here and we rode the river last fall and winter and I would hate to see that paved. There is enough paved trails (in my humble opinion). We rode it last night (4-24) and the river was up quite a bit. The logs on the end were gone and covered with water. We were thinking a suspension bridge would work the best and the least cost?

[dennis porter]

Okay, it's time to put the raft in the creek. This Friday May 2nd at 6:00pm we will meet at the crossing. The key to putting the Raft in is getting enough people to lift it. It only takes about 15 minutes. Please spread the word.
Thanks, Dennis

p.s. Don't forget to tell people 3 max on the raft at one time.

[dennis porter]

The Raft is in and working fine. Please, nicely remind some of those people when you see them to not overload the Raft.

Can't wait for those Mosquitos, Dennis.