I am a MORC member and I don't care.....

[guest_s]

.....said a rider with 2 of his friends after riding Theo while the gates were closed.

Another amazing statement was this. He said he was upset because when a tree went down and he put in a log ride to go over it, we took it out. Then he said, you guys just take over the trails.

On the "we take over the trails" part I have to simply say, well yeah....if MOCA did not take over the trails, the city was going to make all mountain biking illegal in the parks in the Theo area. That is why MOCA was formed, was to present a sustainable method of building mountain bike trails and form and organized group to volunteer to build and maintain them. When the trails are too wet to ride, we close and lock the gates.....simply to keep the trails in good condition and keep them from getting damaged from riders who ride them wet.

These 3 riders obviously know about MORC and know that the trails were closed, yet they continued to go past the gates and ride wet trails anyway. I guess his comment in the title is the one that amazes me most. "I am a MORC member and I don't care". What does that mean exactly? That since you are a MORC member you are above the rules and guidelines set by MORC? Huh?.....I guess I don't get it.

We spend thousands of hours to build and maintain these trails on our own time. We are not paid to do this, we do it simply because we care about access to legit mountain biking trails and we have a passion for the sport. When 3 riders with higher end bikes and full on lycra outfits who are MORC members do this sort of thing, it does nothing but take away from all the efforts many of us have made to make these trails a possibility for us all. It's disrepectful, careless, and even selfish. If you have a problem with how MORC or MOCA operates and creates these oppertunities for all mountain bikers.....show up at a meeting and let us know. Ears are open to hear what you have to say. Don't just go trashing trails that many volunteers have worked their asses off to create..........that's just lame.

[john]

were any of the guys missing teeth? i was running in the area one day and saw a group of guys at the trail head, just passed a closed gate. i told them that if they get caught that they would be fined. in response they told me they help work on the trail with morc (i didn't really believe them) and that their friends had already been fined and it was worth it, or something to that effect. at least one of them had a bunch of missing teeth.


.....said a rider with 2 of his friends after riding Theo while the gates were closed.

Another amazing statement was this. He said he was upset because when a tree went down and he put in a log ride to go over it, we took it out. Then he said, you guys just take over the trails.

On the "we take over the trails" part I have to simply say, well yeah....if MOCA did not take over the trails, the city was going to make all mountain biking illegal in the parks in the Theo area. That is why MOCA was formed, was to present a sustainable method of building mountain bike trails and form and organized group to volunteer to build and maintain them. When the trails are too wet to ride, we close and lock the gates.....simply to keep the trails in good condition and keep them from getting damaged from riders who ride them wet.

These 3 riders obviously know about MORC and know that the trails were closed, yet they continued to go past the gates and ride wet trails anyway. I guess his comment in the title is the one that amazes me most. "I am a MORC member and I don't care". What does that mean exactly? That since you are a MORC member you are above the rules and guidelines set by MORC? Huh?.....I guess I don't get it.

We spend thousands of hours to build and maintain these trails on our own time. We are not paid to do this, we do it simply because we care about access to legit mountain biking trails and we have a passion for the sport. When 3 riders with higher end bikes and full on lycra outfits who are MORC members do this sort of thing, it does nothing but take away from all the efforts many of us have made to make these trails a possibility for us all. It's disrepectful, careless, and even selfish. If you have a problem with how MORC or MOCA operates and creates these oppertunities for all mountain bikers.....show up at a meeting and let us know. Ears are open to hear what you have to say. Don't just go trashing trails that many volunteers have worked their asses off to create..........that's just lame.

[guest_s]

were any of the guys missing teeth?

Nope, very clean cut and well prepped riders. I would say all in the lower to mid 20's and yeah........full on I am privileged attitudes.

[Heuy]

and yeah........full on I am privileged attitudes.

Yep,

Its so wonderful people raise their kids with all of this "you are sooo special" crap.

His comment about being a MORC member is basically sayin', "Well, its all about me. I paid my $20 and I'm so much better than the 700 other members of the group and such a valuable individual I can't be inconvenienced":sick:

Enjoy your west metro up there. :D

Home of the daddy's money entitled d-bag.

[soupboy]

Enjoy your west metro up there. :D Home of the daddy's money entitled d-bag.

Not to go OT, but I'd wager there are as many Trustafarians in Eagan as there are GV/SLP combined!

Besides, many d-bags actually make their own money. They just like being d-bags for sport and shiggles. ;)

As for the offending riders they can DIAF yesterday.

[stoneage]

It's sad that because they have paid their 20 bucks they assume that it is an across the board entrance fee to the park system. There isn't one ounce of sweat equity on their bodies. If you really are serious about stopping these transgressions, start calling these guys out and posting pictures on the forums. Myself and others brought this up years ago when we first started building these trails and the jerks would ride over our muddy shovels. The only other deterrent would be to get the park police on board with a heavy fine campaign.

p.s. MOCA was formed when riders were being arbitrarily and unilaterally displaced from other park areas. One woman running off leash dogs complained about riders in the area behind Eloise Butler Wildflower Garden. When Rybak questioned why there were no silent sports within the Minneapolis Parks the process began. All that land and the area across the parkway including Brownie Lake were part of the original plan. Pat Arneson, Miriam Taylor, Shawn Sheeley, Pete McKinney and myself were the very first work crew.

[burnsvilleMark]

I am new around here and new to ORC in general.
<o></o>
Great Trails! I have been enjoying the heck out of them and my riding is improving --- THANKS to everyone who’ve done the hard work so we can all ride ---
<o></o>
It was a great spring, early dry warm weather, I road almost everyday for weeks. Now it seems like there hasn't been a day that we can get out and ride with damaging the trails.


I have read the post about mud trail and this link about the 'D-bags' ride closed trails.
<o></o>

Today looks like another line of storms coming (Thursday) so one more day (several days) without a trail ride. This has got me thinking...is there a place for wet weather riding? Do we need a place that is totally ok to get out and ride in any weather or trail condition?

An always open trail could achieve 2 things;
<o></o>
1. Give a trail to those that 'need' to ride a place to go nuts regardless of the weather.
2. Show those same people how the well maintained (closed during wet conditions) trails will be affected if people ride wet trails.
<o></o>
Will this stop people for riding closed trails? Most likely not…but it could help.

Anyway, just throwing it out there as an idea. Can a trail be designed for all weather riding?

[gopherhockey]

I'm actually surprised they were members... makes me doubt their statement. I'm not saying all MORC members are perfect, but someone with that kind of attitude surely wouldn't spend a dime to support us would they?

At any rate, keep up the good work MOCA Theo folks... remember that there are way more people who appreciate your efforts than there are dbags like the ones Shad encountered.

I'm convinced the nature of our sport brings out the selfish a-hole in a lot of people. Thankfully so many are not that way.

[dave t]

Not to go OT, but I'd wager there are as many Trustafarians in Eagan as there are GV/SLP combined!
Don't know about quantity, but quality is at least as high.

Leb's "more me now" entitled don't even claim MORC membership for their "rights". All they think is required for them to ride whenever they please is that they maintain their status as tax paying citizens.

[bigwheel]

At any rate, keep up the good work MOCA Theo folks... remember that there are way more people who appreciate your efforts than there are dbags like the ones Shad encountered..

+1 on all that.

[Ish]

These folk are more lame than Steven Seagal

http://politicsoffthegrid.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/above_the_law.jpg

[bigwheel]

...is there a place for wet weather riding? Do we need a place that is totally ok to get out and ride in any weather or trail condition?

An always open trail could achieve 2 things;
<o></o>
1. Give a trail to those that 'need' to ride a place to go nuts regardless of the weather.
2. Show those same people how the well maintained (closed during wet conditions) trails will be affected if people ride wet trails.
<o></o>
Will this stop people for riding closed trails? Most likely not…but it could help.

Anyway, just throwing it out there as an idea. Can a trail be designed for all weather riding?

Good question, Mark.

But keep in mind that it takes MORC about 3-4 years working with a land manager (city/county/state park), laying out the ground work, making agreements, getting environmental assessments, opening it up for comment for other user groups also want the land, etc. After all that, we can finally start building the trail, which takes several years more. In addition to the time, it takes a lot of labor and expense to build a trail. Most of that comes from MORC.

The park supervisors take their land very seriously. MORC has to make a lot of promises, about building nice trail and maintaining what we build -- forever. We also have to demonstrate that our decision makers and trail builders are all formally trained, know their stuff, and will do what is best for the trail/park.

With that in mind, imagine being the person bringing the following proposal to a park manager:

"We're going to build a trail, but let everyone ride it when it is wet. The trail is going to get trashed and ultimately be ruined and abandoned, but all of the other parks will be able to look at yours as an example of what happens when you don't use good judgment regarding trail openings/closings."

I also can't imagine getting more than zero trail crew to be the ones to claim that they maintain it, and take on the liability/negligence risks.

There are other techniques that can be used to make a trail that can be ridden wet. It usually involves class-5 or gravel, and running a grader over the trail a few times a year. Of course, this means a wider trail. There are a bunch of these kinds of trails around the twin cities (luce line, lrt, river bottoms ski trails, etc), but the mountain bikers don't like riding them. They want pristine single-track. Unfortunately, you can't have it both ways.

Last night, I had my bike loaded in the van with the intent of heading over to Murphy. But after reading the reports of puddles and lots of damp spots, I decided that my ride would mean more work for the trail crew. The trail was open, but from what I could tell based on posts, it probably should not have been. I ended up riding 25 miles of paved trails instead. I don't have a road bike right now, so I rode it on one of my mountain bikes. Sure, I would have rather been riding single-track. But it wasn't that terrible, and I used it as an opportunity for non-stop steady pedaling, which can be a better (at least different) workout than riding in the woods.

When you are out riding a questionable trail, please realize that there is a group of people that takes time out of their lives every week to maintain that trail. Riding a wet trail is kind of like walking across their living room carpet with muddy shoes.

[Pain Cave Spelunker]

"We're going to build a trail, but let everyone ride it when it is wet. The trail is going to get trashed and ultimately be ruined and abandoned, but all of the other parks will be able to look at yours as an example of what happens when you don't use good judgment regarding trail openings/closings."


What exactly is a ruined trail? The MORC trails are practically like riding on pavement they are so well smoothed out. At Camp Manitou the land manager allows an annual dirt bike race threw some of the MTB trails. They get torn up and rutted but are repaired. People poach the trail frequently with dirt bikes and tear around corners throwing up huge amounts of dirt. Even with the ruts, the trails are still rideable and FUN. It is quite refreshing riding a trail that is rugged. A lot of the things BLAST does to the trail is considered unsustanable but yet the Monicello trail network has been around for at least 2 decades. Just adding my 2 cents.

[ryno lite]

At any rate, keep up the good work MOCA Theo folks... remember that there are way more people who appreciate your efforts than there are dbags like the ones Shad encountered.



I think most really appreciate your great work MOCA. I know I do!

[MOAB]

My thoughts exactly John. Just because they READ the forum doesn't make them MEMBERS. My guess is that they read/follow the forum, but never spend a DIME on an actual membership, not to mention one second of time helping to maintain them. Maybe spending money for race entrance fees gives them the idea they are a MORC member. I hope they read this. . . . not that it will change their minds any. People like that are ALWAYS right. . . in their mind.

SELFISH people! :angry:

[guest_s]

What exactly is a ruined trail? The MORC trails are practically like riding on pavement they are so well smoothed out. At Camp Manitou the land manager allows an annual dirt bike race threw some of the MTB trails. They get torn up and rutted but are repaired. People poach the trail frequently with dirt bikes and tear around corners throwing up huge amounts of dirt. Even with the ruts, the trails are still rideable and FUN. It is quite refreshing riding a trail that is rugged. A lot of the things BLAST does to the trail is considered unsustanable but yet the Monicello trail network has been around for at least 2 decades. Just adding my 2 cents.

Each trail has a different land manager and each land manager has certain expectations of what they want MORC (or any group) to do to keep the trail maintained. The MPRB holds MOCA to very high standards and when they come inspect the trails, they expect to see a nice narrow trail that causes little to no water erosion to the area around it. If they come out and see that we are not keeping to our agreement (that means the organization and the people who ride the trails) we are at risk of having them close down the trails altogether. Each trail is different, they don't all operate under the same guidelines.

So I get what you are saying about Camp Manitou, but not all trails have such relaxed rules set by the land manager.

[ryno lite]

What exactly is a ruined trail? The MORC trails are practically like riding on pavement they are so well smoothed out. At Camp Manitou the land manager allows an annual dirt bike race threw some of the MTB trails. They get torn up and rutted but are repaired. People poach the trail frequently with dirt bikes and tear around corners throwing up huge amounts of dirt. Even with the ruts, the trails are still rideable and FUN. It is quite refreshing riding a trail that is rugged. A lot of the things BLAST does to the trail is considered unsustanable but yet the Monicello trail network has been around for at least 2 decades. Just adding my 2 cents.

They actually bring in a Bobcat and do extensive repairs after these races. Also, the trail sucks after this damage and repair. Ask any old BLAST guy and they will tell you what happened to their singletrack after one of these races. Their singletrack went from tight and twisty to wide and straight. Keep in mind that Camp Manitou is run by a non-profit and they have different visions of what they will allow. I am currently working with Three Rivers as a Trail Steward for MORC and their environmental requirements would never allow any of the things that happen at Camp Manitou to happen in their park. They want our environmental footprint to be small.

Also designing trails improperly and letting them go to heck is expensive. Dakota County used to spend $70,000 a year to maintain the old Lebanon Hills trail and that was only 2.5 miles long. That's more than MORC's whole yearly budget just to maintain 2.5 miles of trail.

[mara]

People like that are ALWAYS right. . . in their mind.

SELFISH people! :angry:

Oh, I'm pretty sure they knew they were in the wrong. Not only did they sneak on to the trail so they could avoid crawling around the gate, but the first words out of the lead rider's mouth was "oh [crap,] there they are!"

We surprised them by staying later than normal at trailwork, putting a damper on their plans to ride closed trails after we had left for the evening.

There's a lot of love and respect from that crowd. We fix it; they destroy it. We fix it again; they destroy it again.

So when is the new section going to open?

[guest_s]

I rode the Cedar trails back in the late 80's and early 90's. It was long before I, and most everyone else, understood sustainability. There was a mound in the middle and at first this mound had about 3 trails going up it and one going down that was initially challenging. Just past this mound was a super steep climb and at first it was really hard to get up it. We would get as much speed as we could and then hammer the hill to get up it. As time went on and more people rode it, a big tree root got exposed. It then became even more of a challenge because now you have to climb the steep hill and hop up the tree root at the top.

Meanwhile, the mound that had only a few trails going up and down it started to gain more and more trails over time. Pretty soon it wasn't a bunch of tight narrow trails, it was a whole bunch of trails that got wider and wider and wider. The downhill that was a challenge eroded and became easy and boring. This is when we built a table top at the bottom.

Over time......this whole area just became a wide open space and was no longer an overgrown mound with lots of trees and brush. Much of it became sandy and the tough hill climb because a mellowed out sandy hill climb that was boring to ride. So people moved to the left of it and created a new climb.....which got worse over time.

The memory of that place sticks clear in my head. At some point the city banned biking from those trails. No biking signs went up at both ends of the Cedar area and now it is illegal to ride there. I even heard of people getting tickets.

This is what mountain biking was back then. Unmanaged and flat out destructive to the land. No one thought about it, they just made a new unsustainable trail right next to the one that became unrideable or less fun.

I guess we have a choice here. We can have groups like MOCA, MORC, IMBA, CAMBA and so on advocate for sustainable trails, which come with a lot of rules and guidelines, or we can go back to having completely unmanaged and eventually illegal trails. If we want mountain biking to grow and become a widely accepted activity, I think it's important to accept and deal with the minor inconvenience of having to wait until a trail is open to ride it...........and it's important to respect the rules these organizations put in place to protect the trails and keep them legal and keep mountain biking as a widely accepted activity.

It's also important to acknowledge the hard working volunteers and not damage a trail because you don't want to wait until they dry out....or you feel you know better than they do. Doing this only frustrates the volunteers....without them, the trails would not even be there for you to ride.

[ryno lite]

What exactly is a ruined trail? The MORC trails are practically like riding on pavement they are so well smoothed out. At Camp Manitou the land manager allows an annual dirt bike race threw some of the MTB trails. They get torn up and rutted but are repaired. People poach the trail frequently with dirt bikes and tear around corners throwing up huge amounts of dirt. Even with the ruts, the trails are still rideable and FUN. It is quite refreshing riding a trail that is rugged. A lot of the things BLAST does to the trail is considered unsustanable but yet the Monicello trail network has been around for at least 2 decades. Just adding my 2 cents.


More comments. Most of the singletrack that BLAST made at Camp Manitou is gone. It's been replaced by wide trails that are the result of the race and the repairs. Most of the riding there is now dirt bike trails and roads that have been there for years. Also keep in mind that there hasn't been a ton of riding in there for a decade. Murphy easily gets more laps on one nice Saturday in the Summer than Camp Manitou gets in a whole year.

BLAST made a ton of unsustainable trail lines at Hillside and many were fixed year after year and eventually all rerouted. Rich has actually rerouted many of the problem areas to be sustainable because they can't keep up with the maintenance of an improperly designed trail.

P.S. Not ripping on BLAST, everyone built trails that way back in the day. I think they burnt out many a volunteer hauling in black dirt every year to the washed out sections of Hillside trail just to see it wash away again within weeks.

[onnad]

Shad, that brings back memories. I was a frequent rider out there as well, and remember the slow change--for the worse--of that trail. There was a gully on the south(?) side of the mound that you could drop into and out of like a half-pipe…until the edges became so torn up that it went from a steep drop to a easy roll-in. So people re-routed the trail a few feet so they could get the quick drop again, and repeated this process until the whole ridge line was torn up.

I not-so-fondly remember the number of near-collisions between hikers on the paths and riders landing after catching air off the table-top or through the gully. (I also remember coming around a corner once and almost running into a fully-naked dude on his way to Hidden Beach, but that’s another story.)<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
Not that “I was 21 and stupid” is an excuse, but looking back on those days of riding the Cedar Lake trails, riders out there really did behave stupid and it was no wonder that the city started policing the area. Land management aside, with hikers and riders on the same trail, it was only a matter of time before someone was going to get very seriously hurt.<O:p</O:p
<O:p></O:p>
The work that MORC/MOCA do isn’t just about maintaining trails, it’s also about building the positive image of the hobby that allows the construction and maintenance of the trails. Even if these d-bags ARE members, they clearly missed the whole point. <O:p</O:p

[stoneage]

"We fix it; they destroy it. We fix it again; they destroy it again."
Well, something's gotta give! If the cops don't police it, then the only attempt to make it serious for these folks is to post their pictures on the forums. NOBODY is going to take you seriously, I'm sorry to say, until you make the ramifications substantial and palpable. I'm sure I will get a response like, "But we wouldn't want to hurt anyones feelings." It's beyond that; They walk around the gates because they feel you're crying wolf about conditions, and they have the distinct impression that you are controlling access because the trails are 'yours', not 'theirs'.

[mara]

Well, something's gotta give! If the cops don't police it, then the only attempt to make it serious for these folks is to post their pictures on the forums.

The police have been out with ticket book in hand. Unfortunately, there are a lot more entitled riders than there are available park patrol.

We're working with the city to target times when a police person's time would be best used for maximum poaching penalties. While they understand closed and not closed, they do not yet all understand when people are most likely to be poaching. We're working on changing that. To their credit, everyone we've worked with on the park patrol so far has been very supportive. During spring closure, the trails were specifically called out in the pre-shift meetings every shift.

I have a feeling that posting a wall of shame on the forums would give those folks perverse poacher cred rather than make them change their ways; they obviously do not care what we think.

[mtb_guy]

Ah....that picture brings back memories. Good group that got MOCA up and running.


It's sad that because they have paid their 20 bucks they assume that it is an across the board entrance fee to the park system. There isn't one ounce of sweat equity on their bodies. If you really are serious about stopping these transgressions, start calling these guys out and posting pictures on the forums. Myself and others brought this up years ago when we first started building these trails and the jerks would ride over our muddy shovels. The only other deterrent would be to get the park police on board with a heavy fine campaign.

p.s. MOCA was formed when riders were being arbitrarily and unilaterally displaced from other park areas. One woman running off leash dogs complained about riders in the area behind Eloise Butler Wildflower Garden. When Rybak questioned why there were no silent sports within the Minneapolis Parks the process began. All that land and the area across the parkway including Brownie Lake were part of the original plan. Pat Arneson, Miriam Taylor, Shawn Sheeley, Pete McKinney and myself were the very first work crew.

[Heuy]

Not to go OT, but I'd wager there are as many Trustafarians in Eagan as there are GV/SLP combined!

Touche'

But, you forgot the D-bag depository that is Uptown,

Now,

Back to our previously scheduled thread.

[stoneage]

"they obviously do not care what we think."
I think you are underestimating the power of shame. They don't care what the MOCA crew think, but I'm sure they would take quite a bit of heat from other riders after the pics were up. This actually happened just before Theo went legit, and the scofflaws were pretty upset that they appeared on the forum, and pressured HARD to have them removed. There was some politics involved (ahem...officers). I thought long and hard about this project when it first began, and questioned all kinds of different users as to whether the project should proceed. There were reservations about access and 'trail nazi' attitudes. I still don't think we handle it very well, and are perceived as being elitist. I personally get peeved when I know perfectly well that the trails are good to go, and am told to stay away until someone decides. What kind of attitude do you think the guy with no equity has? My bike has never had a speck of mud from a ride at Wirth for the last 7 years, but from some peoples statements you'd think I ride wet trails. Used to when I didn't know better, never again.

[jkalla]

I think there are riders that equate mountain biking to mudding. It is not that they don't care - they actually prefer to ride a wet trail. Oh look - I have mud on my legs and on my bike - I am so cool.

[guest_s]

I think there are riders that equate mountain biking to mudding. It is not that they don't care - they actually prefer to ride a wet trail. Oh look - I have mud on my legs and on my bike - I am so cool.

There is nothing wrong with people wanting to ride in the mud. But where it's a problem is when they want to do it on well maintained and managed mountain bike trails.......it just simply causes a lot more work for us volunteers. What is even more frustrating is that the mudders don't come show up for trailwork to help clean up the mess they made. If they did that, I would at least have a little more respect for them.........and then they might just see how much extra work it is when people do ride in the mud.

So go ride in the mud somewhere, just don't do it at Theo or on any other MORC trail that isn't designed for that type of riding.

[Derek]

I am new around here and new to ORC in general.
<O></O>
Great Trails! I have been enjoying the heck out of them and my riding is improving --- THANKS to everyone who’ve done the hard work so we can all ride ---
<O></O>
It was a great spring, early dry warm weather, I road almost everyday for weeks. Now it seems like there hasn't been a day that we can get out and ride with damaging the trails.


I have read the post about mud trail and this link about the 'D-bags' ride closed trails.
<O></O>

Today looks like another line of storms coming (Thursday) so one more day (several days) without a trail ride. This has got me thinking...is there a place for wet weather riding? Do we need a place that is totally ok to get out and ride in any weather or trail condition?

An always open trail could achieve 2 things;
<O></O>
1. Give a trail to those that 'need' to ride a place to go nuts regardless of the weather.
2. Show those same people how the well maintained (closed during wet conditions) trails will be affected if people ride wet trails.
<O></O>
Will this stop people for riding closed trails? Most likely not…but it could help.

Anyway, just throwing it out there as an idea. Can a trail be designed for all weather riding?

On rainy days I understand the frustration. There's something about riding on dirt that concrete and pavement cannot provide. I've thought about the all-weather trail as well. But then I think an all-weather trail would get destroyed to the point where no one would want to ride it. You'd have to get a land manager to agree that it could get damaged and eventually no one would want to use it. What good is it then?

If one would exist people should have to sign a waiver saying they will never whine about trail conditions for it.

[guest_s]

We could do this to an entire trail.......

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3594/3292200491_5756befce9.jpg

Not much work at all.......volunteers....step right up.

[Heuy]

It you were going to have a mud trail it would have to be wide enough to grade after the mud dried and flat enoough that you wouldn't have to deal with bench cuts etc.

The only hope for this is if either Sram or Shimano sponsored it hoping that it would pay for itself in replacement parts.

[dave t]

It you were going to have a mud trail it would have to be wide enough to grade after the mud dried and flat enoough that you wouldn't have to deal with bench cuts etc.

The only hope for this is if either Sram or Shimano sponsored it hoping that it would pay for itself in replacement parts.I think the idea of a mud trail is that it would just be left to evolve. Back in the day, there was a section in the river bottoms that was perpetual mud along one of the gullys. It got deep, nasty and difficult. I will admit, that section had it's appeal. Not the mud but the challenge of getting through the knee deep ruts clean.

[guaranteedkill]

Today looks like another line of storms coming (Thursday) so one more day (several days) without a trail ride. This has got me thinking...is there a place for wet weather riding? Do we need a place that is totally ok to get out and ride in any weather or trail condition?

The Brownie Lake Trail and the Mammoth Trail are both unnofficial trails that do not receive maintenance from MORC. So riding those trails when wet should be OK but I am sure people on this forum will still give me hell for saying that.

I think your suggestion of having a trail that is open all the time is a good idea. Believe it or not, there are people that do enjoy riding in the mud. It is fun and provides a whole new challenge. Will it ever happen around here? Not as long a MORC and MOCA are in full control (sad).

[guaranteedkill]

"We fix it; they destroy it. We fix it again; they destroy it again."
Well, something's gotta give! If the cops don't police it, then the only attempt to make it serious for these folks is to post their pictures on the forums. NOBODY is going to take you seriously, I'm sorry to say, until you make the ramifications substantial and palpable. I'm sure I will get a response like, "But we wouldn't want to hurt anyones feelings." It's beyond that; They walk around the gates because they feel you're crying wolf about conditions, and they have the distinct impression that you are controlling access because the trails are 'yours', not 'theirs'.

What is posting their pictures going to accomplish? Seriously.

[Ish]

Mammoth Trail are both unnofficial trails that do not receive maintenance from MORC. So riding those trails when wet should be OK but I am sure people on this forum will still give me hell for saying that.

Because the trail volunteers that maintain Mammoth aren't officially under the MORC umbrella makes it ok to go out and destroy their work? Seriously, go to talk to the Farm krew or some ofthe LCR crew and get their opinion. Just make sure to do it in person. ;)

But your right, trashing the brownie lake area should really give the Park board a good impression of bikers. Should make it much easier to continuie to gain additional trail at Theo and beyond :eyeroll:

Please pm me your address. I'd like to come over and take a crap in your yard and see how you like it.

Your logic seriously scares me.:banghead:
..and no, I'm not giving you hell...just pointing out the the flaws in your thought process.

[stoneage]

What is posting their pictures going to accomplish? Seriously.
Would you want to see your picture up on the forum?
What would you say to the guy that pointed out, "Hey, aren't you the guy with the muddy bike on the MORC forum last week?"
Names and mug shots please.

[guest_s]

Not as long a MORC and MOCA are in full control (sad).

MORC and MOCA are people just like you. People who love to ride mountain bikes on singletrack and are willing to put in the effort to create such an opportunity for us all.

What is truly sad? The fact that someone like you thinks we are in full control and that you can't do anything about it. Step up, get involved, put your time in like we have and you can have your say and heck, maybe you can gather a bunch of volunteers who like to ride in the mud, go to a land manager and advocate for it......then make it happen. It's true......YOU can do it if you put in the effort and time. If all you do is complain and accuse us of not doing it the way you want it to be done........I guess it ain't going to happen.

I have already stated that I don't enjoy riding in the mud.......so do you think I personally am going to bust my ass to create a trail that can be ridden while muddy? It's highly unlikely. So have at it man......let's see you and others step up and advocate for your mud trail.

[Mandabr15]

Will it ever happen around here? Not as long a MORC and MOCA are in full control (sad).

I guess what it comes down to is respect. Plain and simple. I respect my friends and my peers so I'm not going to trash the work that they do and thereby disrespect them.

MORC and MOCA aren't in full control. There are a few trails in the area that are not MORC maintained. Hillside & Afton to name a few. That being said I respect the work being done there so I'm not going to get my thrills trashing their trails by riding them in the rain or muddy conditions.

I also respect my fellow riders so I'm not going to trash the trail for them by riding a trail that can't sustain wet conditions.

It seems silly to me that this is even an issue. Its pretty cut and dry for our area. Our soil cannot sustain wet riding. Period.

[jitterjepp]

Would you want to see your picture up on the forum?
What would you say to the guy that pointed out, "Hey, aren't you the guy with the muddy bike on the MORC forum last week?"
Names and mug shots please.

If you had a plan get the **** on it. Our trail is gone!!! You started all this ****. Finish it.

I'm still all there too. I'll never ride it as fast as you but I still rake it every year. Lot's of years of raking, picking up garbage chasing the naked horde off. Burned bodies and freaky folks roaming about the sacrificial table. We've seen it all Bill- much of it 20 miles per hour.

[DANW]

Trying to ride in this area can get frustrating due to the weather. That is why I am setting up one bike for tar...

The trails that Morc/ Moca, Richzilla etc work to maintain are great! My wife and I go on vacations (out of state) to ride mtb and we are always amazed that we have some of the best trails right here at home. Having such nice trails close to home is great, but it comes at a price - just like everything else in life that is great. ;)

[TEA]

Not as long a MORC and MOCA are in full control (sad).[/quote]


Well if it wasn't for VOLUNTEERS in MOCA and MORC you wouldn't have any trail to ride. Have you followed this discussion? If you do not maintain you lose trail, plain and simple. And if you don't like what's happening for a VOLUNTEER group, get involved. :D

[Ben26er]

Well if it wasn't for VOLUNTEERS in MOCA and MORC you wouldn't have any trail to ride.

This is a major overstatement and is not true.

Mountain bike trails existed before MORC, and would still be here even if MORC never formed. Minnesota has some very well managed park systems that support mountain biking. As the sport became more popular, park managers took notice and provided opportunities. MORC has definitely made an impact, but let's keep this discussion grounded in reality.

[the-one1]

.... Not as long a MORC and MOCA are in full control (sad).

I vote to hand over full control of the trails to Kristian to do what every he/she wants and lets see how long the trails stay open in the metro area.

And MORC and MOCA aren't in control of the trails, it's the land managers that are. Or else I bet that there would be really gnarly features built.

[TEA]

This is a major overstatement and is not true.

Mountain bike trails existed before MORC, and would still be here even if MORC never formed. Minnesota has some very well managed park systems that support mountain biking. As the sport became more popular, park managers took notice and provided opportunities. MORC has definitely made an impact, but let's keep this discussion grounded in reality.

While I don't disagree with you on the existence of mtb trails BEFORE MORC, he seems to be upset with the rules established. The REALITY is mtb wouldn't exist in places like Lebanon Hills, Murphy, Theo ecetera if it weren't for the organization of VOLUNTEERS doing this. The rogue trail systems set up "back in the day" were not sustainable (I rode in the 80's and 90's). He also is complaining about what MORC and MOCA are doing, NOT mtb in general.

btw-my favorite and regular ride is in Red Wing a non-MORC trail. And guess what, I don't ride of it's going to ruin the trail.

[Ben26er]

Lebanon Hills and Murphy had established, legal mountain bike trails before MORC existed. They were not rouge trails, please get your facts straight.

Other trails like Theo were rouge trails, so you are right there. To say that the Mpls Parks wouldn't have recognized the popularity of the sport and established trails on their own is purely speculation.

[TEA]

Lebanon Hills and Murphy were established, legal mountain bike trails before MORC existed. They were not rouge trails, please get your facts straight.

Other trails like Theo were rouge trails, so you are right there. To say that the Mpls Parks wouldn't have recognized the popularity of the sport and established trails on their own is purely speculation.


And did you ride them back then? They were not sustainable trials techniques.

[Ben26er]

And did you ride them back then? They were not sustainable trials techniques.

And your point is what?

Neither question has anything to do with your original statement that I disagreed with... that if it wasn't for MORC and MOCA I wouldn't have any trail to ride. Again, that isn't true.

[TEA]

I'll retract my any statement. Does that help?

[duggus]

And your point is what?

Neither question has anything to do with your original statement that I disagreed with... that if it wasn't for MORC and MOCA I wouldn't have any trail to ride. Again, that isn't true.

This seems like a lawyers argument on exactly what words were/weren't said. It doesn't matter. The point is the trails ARE maintained by MORC now, and if you wan't to ride them, you follow THEIR rules. Seems simple. :crazy:

[dave t]

Lebanon Hills and Murphy had established, legal mountain bike trails before MORC existed. They were not rouge trails, please get your facts straight.
I don't know if you really have your facts straight either.

Lebabon and Murphy did both have established XC SKI trails that mtn bikers were allowed on in the summer. I rode these trails and enjoyed the high speed bombing decents but the length of these trails meant most riders put in 3 to 6 laps to get in a decent ride. The fact is both parks spent boatloads of money each year filling in the eroded canyons that developed each year on these trails. That fact had both land managers fully prepared to eliminate mountain biking on these trails.

Now whether or not they would have decide on thier own to replace those trails or if, without MORC, another group would have stepped up is an unknown. Either way, it's a pretty safe bet that erosion control would have been top priority and you would still have to put up with the "mud police". It's an even safer bet that you would still have places to ride but not these two places - Murphy and Lebanon - and maybe no officially recognized trail at all.

[gopherhockey]

It's an even safer bet that you would still have places to ride but not these two places - Murphy and Lebanon - and maybe no officially recognized trail at all.

+1 I know its really easy for some to see MORC from anything to the savoir of mountain biking in our area all the way to the evil that has ruined the same. One might never know what would have happened if MORC didn't come along, but there are hints of things we do know that have happened along the way. (heck we already did lose the old Murphy, and contrary to some people's belief it wasn't MORC that had anything to do with closing that area)

But back on topic... none of this excuses people from damaging trails by riding when they should not. Thats the kind of disrespect that will keep this sport from maturing and growing even further.

A huge thanks to each and every individual who has put time or money into IMBA-MORC in an effort to make this a better place to ride... regardless of whether you agree 100% or .01% with the actions over the years.

There are people who would kill to live in an area with this much singletrack. That didn't happen without a group that met over 10 years ago and decided to make a difference, as well as other great groups around the area doing the same in their corner of the world.

[kabbie_cache]

To the ones questioning the rules ....

1. Why are you not at trail work ?

2. Why are you not at the board meetings ?

3. Why do you think you should be able to ride when ever and how ever you want ?

4. If you don't like the way MORC is run, why don't you step up and do something about it ?




To those riding wet/closed trails ...

If I see you riding wet/closed trails, I will post your info on my facebook page and share it with the world. I have no problem with it.

If you have done nothing wrong you shouldn't have anything to worry about, now should you.

[TrailPatrol]

...but yet the Mon(t)icello trail network has been around for at least 2 decades. Just adding my 2 cents.

Two decades? 20 Years??? Who was riding them; Joe Breezer Gary Fisher and Bob Roll?

I thought Bob Mueller built the Monti trails in about '97 or '98?

[stoneage]

The oldest 'rogue' trails I know of are River Bottoms, Elk River, Theo Wirth, Anoka, Elm Creek, Crosby Farms, Battle Creek and Terrace Oaks. Every one is legit or going to be soon, with the exception of Anoka and Crosby. Who knows how those Anokans do things??!!. T.O. might have been the catalyst for the beginning of MORC. Scott Hebol (sp) and a few others built trail off the walking trail. Once we found out about 'Hebol Hollow' all the early off roaders flooded over there, causing conflicts. It's always people with off leash dogs that continue to spur action. I'm not counting the Fort Snelling area, because it's federal river land and bikers couldn't get legitimate access if they wanted.

[Rocket Jockey]

I am always amazed at the selfishness of some people, the entitlement attitudes and complete lack of common sense. Forget about MORC for a minute. Can anyone argue that riding muddy trails causes damage, leaves significant ruts? I guess if you are selfish, entitled or lack common sense you don't consider the damage left behind for everyone else to deal with. Karma is a beyotch.

For the MORC/IMBA volunteers and officers, don't get discouraged. I have been a board member and you will always have people that are not involved throwing rocks from the sidelines. They are the most demanding, most critical and the least helpful.

As far as the trail poachers....stop sticks would make for some entertaining video!!! :jumpy:

RJ

[TEA]

I remember riding in 1989 (my first mtb) and into the early 90's various areas in the south metro. We moved away in 1997 and came back three years ago to find what developed. That's why MORC gets my money and respect.

[soupboy]

So, what's your real point here? Spit. It. Out. Have MORC and MOCA done a bad job, a half-ass job or could they be doing their jobs better or differently? Are you willing to commit your personal time to remedy these unspoken deficiencies?

Your posts are equivalent to the monkeys at the zoo alternating between eating their poo and throwing it at people.


This is a major overstatement and is not true.

Mountain bike trails existed before MORC, and would still be here even if MORC never formed. Minnesota has some very well managed park systems that support mountain biking. As the sport became more popular, park managers took notice and provided opportunities. MORC has definitely made an impact, but let's keep this discussion grounded in reality.


Lebanon Hills and Murphy had established, legal mountain bike trails before MORC existed. They were not rouge trails, please get your facts straight.

Other trails like Theo were rouge trails, so you are right there. To say that the Mpls Parks wouldn't have recognized the popularity of the sport and established trails on their own is purely speculation.


And your point is what?

Neither question has anything to do with your original statement that I disagreed with... that if it wasn't for MORC and MOCA I wouldn't have any trail to ride. Again, that isn't true.

[widespot]

Wow, a couple of the attitudes in this thread are completely unbelievable.

I remember what mountain biking was like before organizations like MORC. The quality and accessibility of the trails that exist now are light years ahead of the old days. To imply otherwise is simply ridiculous.

Dbags riding in the mud are part of the reason we got kicked out of everywhere good back then.

[Steven W.]

You know, this all seems pretty simple to a simple minded person like myself. Don't like MORC? Stay out of the forums. Don't like what MORC has done with the trails? Stay off of them. Don't like who MORC is or what they have done in the metro in general? Leave us be and we'll leave you be. Volunteers (in ANY organization) don't have to put up with the negative attitudes of anyone so before someone blows a gasket and the thread gets locked down I suggest this thread returns to some like this (http://www.morcmtb.org/forums/showthread.php?t=28014&highlight=compliments)!

This little girl has no problem saying what she'll do to MORC haters...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsllV9iwidM

[Ben26er]

So, what's your real point here? Spit. It. Out. Have MORC and MOCA done a bad job, a half-ass job or could they be doing their jobs better or differently? Are you willing to commit your personal time to remedy these unspoken deficiencies?

Your posts are equivalent to the monkeys at the zoo alternating between eating their poo and throwing it at people.

Whoa there fella! No need to get so worked up. Got issues?

No where did I complain about morc. Morc's work has undoubtedly had a positive impact on riding locally.

But to say mtn biking wouldn't exist without morc disregards the work of local park employees. It doesn't go unnoticed.

MN has many progressive, professional park employees that are experts in their fields and do a good job of providing recreational opportunities. Many local park systems would be creating sustainable mtb trails even if morc wasn't pushing for them.

My point? With or without morc, I would have trail to ride, and it is because of the local park managers. Morc works hard to improve the local trails, and I appreciate it, but they don't work alone.

[bigwheel]

At the risk of putting my foot in my mouth....

What state or local parks in Minnesota have single-track bike trail, that was built without the help of MORC, COGGS, RASC, MOCA, BLAST, or an equivalent organization? I can't think of any off the top of my head.

I ride state parks and state forest on my Pugsley all the time. Even rode 2 days of mud last weekend. But the "bike" trails are generally snowmobile and XC ski trails that they allow bikes on. (for now) The fun trails for riding are the hiking trails, but bikes are generally not allowed there.

If you don't mind riding double-track, there are lots of options and nobody will get mad if you ride them wet.

[ryno lite]

With or without morc, I would have trail to ride, and it is because of the local park managers. Morc works hard to improve the local trails, and I appreciate it, but they don't work alone.

You are correct in that we have many great local land managers to work with. I truly enjoy working with them. You are incorrect to assume you would have these trails to ride without MORC. Lebanon and Theo were 100% built by MORC volunteer hours and money. No help from the city or Dakota County. Many other trail systems are that way also. Three Rivers helps financially and with labor for building and maintenance of Murphy, but Murphy would not have happened without MORC period. The same can be said about the upcoming Elm Creek trail project. Three Rivers and MORC have been very equal partners in these two projects. I am fortunate to be able to work with these wonderful people.

Without the donated time, donated money, and the years and years of MORC advocacy behind the scenes, none of the MORC trails would exist, period. Park budgets are tight, these trails would not have happened unless the mountain bike community through MORC would have advocated for these trails, helped fund these trails, and perform the volunteer work required to build these trails and maintain these trails.

Local mountain bikers need to realize how much they actually owe MORC-IMBA. More local mountain bikers need to start stepping up and helping to support the trails that they ride. These trails would not exist without MORC-IMBA.

I truly thank all those who are members and volunteers! The rest of the non-MORC members out there should be thanking MORC members every time they see them!

[guest_s]

MN has many progressive, professional park employees that are experts in their fields and do a damn good job of providing recreational opportunities. Many local park systems would be creating sustainable mtb trails even if morc wasn't pushing for them.


Can you name some of these parks? I am very interested to see which parks in Minnesota make good quality singletrack without the help of an outside advocacy group for mountain biking. Off the top of my head I can think of one Park employee who is pushing for and now building a sustainable mountain bike trail......his name is Reed and he came to MORC to get it done.

Words don't have a lot of weight without specifics.

BTW, this thread was pretty good until you started insulting soupboy by calling him poopboy. Are you not able to debate cleanly? Mods?

[Ben26er]

The Poopboy remark is due to his claim that my opinion is equivalent to poo. If you edit my post, edit his insults toward me. Or do his membership dues give him free reign?

You guys keep reading things into my posts that aren't there. Please read the words I typed, not what you want to read. I'm done with all of you.

[guest_s]

I'm done with all of you.

Awesome! Finally! Thanks, moving forward now......time to make some killer trails......well.....once this silly rain goes away........:)

[mara]

time to make some killer trails......well.....once this silly rain goes away........:)

Assuming our friendly neighborhood poachers will stay off the trails until they are dry and open, that is.

[Steven W.]

You guys keep reading things into my posts that aren't there. Please read the words I typed, not what you want to read. .

It's a forum. People will always read into what you say. You have to be very careful about your wording if you want to crticize and not offend. Open communication is a great tool, but forums end up making people heated since the face to face communication isn't there. I personally know many people who are in these forums and there are many times I would take offense at stuff they say if I didn't know them in "real life".

To say you're done with us...that's never the goal...but we wish you well. We're all here because we LOVE riding and it sucks when we lose a "brother".

[Susannah]

The Poopboy remark is due to his claim that my opinion is equivalent to poo. If you edit my post, edit his insults toward me. Or do his membership dues give him free reign?

You guys keep reading things into my posts that aren't there. Please read the words I typed, not what you want to read. I'm done with all of you.


Sorry. I moderated without reading all of the posts, I don't know how to restore to the original.

Either way, sounds like you're done with MORC anyway, which is too bad.

[Steven W.]

The Poopboy remark is due to his claim that my opinion is equivalent to poo...

Well, not to flame anything again, but I just re-read his post. He was actually calling you out on your wishy washy remarks. The comment was made that monkeys alternate between eating and throwing poo...totally different than calling your opinion "poo". It's like the telephone game...what was REALLY said in the beginning? I just wanted to clear that up.

[mara]

Okay there hijackers, let's get back to the point and debate the merits of poo elsewhere.

Riding closed/wet MORC trails = bad. No matter how awesome you are, you are not an exception to this rule.

[swen]

I'm done with all of you.


Whatever, we're all into 29ers anyways.:crazy2:

[Ol Dirty Biker]

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/8198/ibtl2.jpg

[kabbie_cache]

I dare anyone, who thinks it's ok to ride wet trails, to show up for one trail work session. Come out and put your time in repairing trails damaged by trail poachers. Come see how much work it is to fix the trail. I know you won't help but it's worth trying to show you how bad the trail gets damaged. If you don't know when trail work is, just ask.

If a trail is closed, wouldn't riding said trail be trespassing? Wouldn't causing damage to said trail also be considered damaging public property? Just doesn't seem worth the trouble if you ask me.

[jitterjepp]

Here's something I put on MTBR in 2001. The MOCA MOA wasn't singed until 2004 That's three years after this post. ;)

http://trails.mtbr.com/cat/united-states-trails/trails-minnesota/trail/PRD_168730_4557crx.aspx



<table class="bodytext" width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="10" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr valign="top"><td width="190">Review Date
July 1, 2001
Overall Rating
http://trails.mtbr.com/Channels/mtbreview/images/4star.gif 4 of 5

Ridden Trail:
Please Select

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<select name="ReviewRate"><option value="5">5 Highest</option><option value="4">4</option><option value="3">3</option><option value="2">2</option><option value="1">1 Lowest</option></select><input name="Index" value="5" type="Hidden"><input name="SortID" value="1" type="Hidden"><input name="ReviewID" value="1417051" type="Hidden"><input src="http://trails.mtbr.com/channels/mtbreview/images/arrows2.gif" alt="Submit" border="0" type="Image"></form></td><td width="10">http://trails.mtbr.com/channels/mtbreview/images/spacer.gif</td><td width="98%"> Reviewed by:
Summary:
All the Minneapolis trails are mannaged by the park board. This includes Theodore Wirth, Cedar Lake, Minnehaha.... In case some of you haven't noticed there is a new paved path that ends at the west side of the woods near the big new houses at the golf course trail. Don't go giving them a reason to hurry up and run it all the way through.
Recommended Route:
The recommended route would be that people stay off the golf course. If you are biking on the golf course or in areas marked off limits you are going to screw up the Minneapolis trails for everyone!
Other recommended trails in the same area:
Oh hey ya and thanks all you idiots who trashed the lower part of the Wirth section (Part closest to 55 south of the RR tracks). You killed the best short loop in Minneapolis just because you couldn't wait for it to dry up.

</td></tr></tbody> </table> Be nice to the trail workers.

[jitterjepp]

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/8198/ibtl2.jpg

With the dress, drop downs and spoke card!

Is that what you're riding at the Salsa 24?