The Wirth Saga Continues...

[YetiBoy]

First, the Luce Line. Now, the best section of singletrack in the entire park, re-routed. If you've ridden TW recently, you know the section. There was one particular portion of Wirth that was faster and flowed better than all others; this is to say if you could only ride one section, this was the one (s-turns, quick climb, left-right and swooping turns). Can someone explain why this was recently closed? Could a small portion of the aforementioned be saved?

As for the re-route, is this temporary?

I'm INCREDIBLY appreciative of the dirt work MORC does. Please help me understand why the recently closed section was removed? Can alternatives be considered? If so, please advise next steps.

Thank you!

[guest_s]

Well, currently the tight curvy section is still there and being ridden....but not for long. So for now the new section (reroute) and the curvy section are in place and rideable.

Once the XC Ski trail reroute goes in, the curvy part in the flats will have to go away because the ski trail will be going right through there. This is something that can not be changed, it's just the way it is.

The new reroute is there to stay. It was put in place to work around the new XC Ski trail reroute which had to be done because of the Luce Line.

I have heard nothing but compliments from people about the new reroute. It's tight, really tight.........it will wear in in time. Right now it's super loose and sandy because we have not gotten any rain. Please give it time to wear in properly.

[mara]

Adding to Shad's comments, it is often difficult to explain on a forum like this the logistics of what is being done and why.

Anyone is welcome to come out during Wednesday trailwork and get a tour of the existing and future reroutes and the reasoning behind them. Letting us know you're coming beforehand would be helpful but not necessary.

Edit: No, we won't try to drag you into moving dirt unless you're out there for that, too ;)

[Matthew]

It's tight, really tight.........it will wear in in time


That's what she said!

[Trevize1138]

There was one particular portion of Wirth that was faster and flowed better than all others; this is to say if you could only ride one section, this was the one (s-turns, quick climb, left-right and swooping turns).

OK, I'm now really curious where this is, and the description here isn't telling me much. :) Sorta like saying "Yeah, that one part of the trail where there are turns, some hills, there's trees around and you ride your bike on the trail ..."

What's the name of this section? (see map linked below)

http://www.morcmtb.org/wiki/index.php/Image:Orthophoto_Map.jpg

[guest_s]

What's the name of this section? (see map linked below)

http://www.morcmtb.org/wiki/index.php/Image:Orthophoto_Map.jpg

The southern most part of Twister will be going away. That is all the tight twisty stuff in the flats just above the ski trail (now the Luce Line) on the map.

The Reroute comes off of Twister before the downhill the used to be there, crosses the ski trail and works it's way down the hill just east of Hoeg's Hill....then it crosses the ski trail again hooking back up with twister at the bottom of the downhill (no longer there).

Probably doesn't make sense describing it this way either. But does it matter? Just go ride the trail, be happy it's finally open, and have fun.....:)

[Ol Dirty Biker]

just go ride the trail, be happy it's finally open, and have fun.....:)

Amen!

[ryno lite]

I have to admit I was big time disappointed when I rode tonight and saw which section was lost. One of my favorite sections of trail. I'm going to miss that stretch big time. Oh well, had to expect something like this as a result of such a large project, I just hate always being second fiddle to the paved trails and cross country ski trails.

[mara]

The Luce Line was in the works long before the mountain bike pilot project began at Wirth.

The MPRB, 3RPD, and skiers have all been accomodating beyond MOCA's expectations regarding the impact of the Luce Line on the mountain bike trails. No group walked away from the project with exactly what they wanted and everyone made sacrifices. The end result is what is best for the parks and ultimately what is best for the park users. The hits we took on this project will be paid back elsewhere down the road.

[SLP Punk]

Kudos to the trail crew! I'm just glad Theo is back! I rode it last Thursday, and besides some new and nasty obstacles, it feels like home.

[QtmMech]

I just hate always being second fiddle to the paved trails and cross country ski trails.

I wish one part of that were really true!


I think I am going to more disappointed this winter as the ploughed black asphalt spreads snow cancer on a few hundred meters of a stellar xc trail. It is going to be a new problem area/shovel site on the loppet trail as the clearing of trees opened the canopy and this southern exposure did not take the skiers into account, at all. I think we will have to portage next to the luce line more often than not. (Plus the plowed stuff is dirty, fouls the wax job or even scratches your base you have been working to make fast through coats and coats of waxes, many hours of brushing, many $ of structuring and many K's of skiing.) And dirt will be plowed onto and mixed into the ski trail grooming, trust me. Dirty snow melts first, too.

I predict that the brown dirt patches from the MtBike crossings will even be worse this year, too, as those without skis drag mud and dirt from the path across the virginal groomed trail. More access, more trashing. I don't get much 'traction' with bikers on one hand who care very much about people riding trails in a little mud verses caring very little about that same mud trashing the grooming we pay for in the winter.

This Luce line extension was ill conceived from the beginning. They should have used the rail road right of way instead of this already maximally multi-used section of the jewel of our park system.

[guest_s]

The Luce Line was in the works long before the mountain bike pilot project began at Wirth.

The MPRB, 3RPD, and skiers have all been accomodating beyond MOCA's expectations regarding the impact of the Luce Line on the mountain bike trails. No group walked away from the project with exactly what they wanted and everyone made sacrifices. The end result is what is best for the parks and ultimately what is best for the park users. The hits we took on this project will be paid back elsewhere down the road.

Agreed. I actually felt just the opposite as Ryan. We had a lot of say on how things went down. It's a lot different than how things have been done in the past..........they didn't just come in and railroad a paved path through our trails.

[quickerpicker]

to go with your whine

[quickerpicker]

Now with all seriousness...
Good, bad, or indifferent, its done. I have to say I am surprised at the amount of bike traffic on the path already. I am also concerned about mountain bike/Luce Line intersection accidents. Its a "when", not an "if". As a skier, I am also concerned about some great climbs lost, and other issues. I use all the trails; paved for commuting, mountain bike, and ski trails. Yes, I've even golfed Wirth. Ultimately for the "common good" it is a decent solution. Sadly, it affects lots of different folks, but it also ties in one highly used paved trail into another highly used paved trail, which is a good thing.

[cconely]

First, the Luce Line. Now, the best section of singletrack in the entire park, re-routed. If you've ridden TW recently, you know the section. There was one particular portion of Wirth that was faster and flowed better than all others; this is to say if you could only ride one section, this was the one (s-turns, quick climb, left-right and swooping turns). Can someone explain why this was recently closed? Could a small portion of the aforementioned be saved?

As for the re-route, is this temporary?

I'm INCREDIBLY appreciative of the dirt work MORC does. Please help me understand why the recently closed section was removed? Can alternatives be considered? If so, please advise next steps.

Thank you!
This was my favorite section of the trail as well, and I'm bummed to see it gone for good.

That said, I'm definitely a creature of habit....so, time to ride and learn a new favorite section!

[QtmMech]

which is a good thing.

A little good with your bad!:banana:

I know skiers, esp. classic skiers are perceived as a prissy bunch. I am quite a bit more persnickety when striding that is for sure. It is tough enough to climb slippery snow covered hills with minuscule snow crystal impressions on the soft wax. People who choose to walk on the groomed "rails" severely limit the grip available by reducing the contact area under foot.

Classic skiers are even known to get uppity with skate skiers, even though most of us do both styles.

[Trevize1138]

I'm sure what Carl means to say is MORC/MOCA welcomes with open ears and minds feedback of all sorts. :cool:


to go with your whine

[jitterjepp]

A little good with your bad!:banana:

People who choose to walk on the groomed "rails" severely limit the grip available by reducing the contact area under foot.



I ski across Isle, Cedar and Brownie and then to the bog area. What I hate? I hate seeing a bunch of idiots in ten gallon sorrel's walking in the tracks I made going across the lake the night before. For real! Are they seriously thinking I want their foot prints in my tracks!

It's even worse when they have snowshoes under those boots.

[mara]

I ski across Isle, Cedar and Brownie and then to the bog area. What I hate? I hate seeing a bunch of idiots in ten gallon sorrel's walking in the tracks I made going across the lake the night before. For real! Are they seriously thinking I want their foot prints in my tracks!

It's even worse when they have snowshoes under those boots.

Agreed. People who walk or snowshoe on groomed ski trails are one circle of hell up from people who ride wet trails.

[ryno lite]

I apologize for my second fiddle comment. I made that without knowledge of the whole deal. I'm impressed to see everyone working together to come up with good solutions to the Luce Line project havoc. I cross country ski myself, although my love is mtn biking. Everyone worked together and made scarifices. That is cool.

I was just sad to see one of my favorite sections disappear. Overall though the trail looked great and I had a great time! For how big a corridor the Luce Line used, the impact was pretty minimal.

Great job Theo crew!

[Specialeded]

Thanks guys.

I appreciate all of your comments and great ideas...

...If your support keeps up Theo will not only be known as having tight, twisty and flowy singletrack but also as the first trail in the state with a COMPLAINT BOX at the trailhead next to the KIOSK. :eyeroll::laugh:

[Nordicguy]

I've learned that the walkers on the Wirth ski trails can get extremely hostile when even politely asked to stay off the trails. Walkers on ski trails drive me nuts :banghead:

As far as bikes crossing the trail in a few spots, who cares. Your kick wax is not going to get wrecked by a little dirt. If you feel that it has you either A. Have it all in your head or B. Are not a very good classic skier, time to work on fixing your technique :D

In the end it's not worth getting uptight about dirt, walkers, bikers, or anything else around here that ends up on the ski trail. If you have ever lived on the East side of the cities you know that we have it soooooooo much better here on the West side. It's typical to see more walkers on the trail on the East side than skiers, I can't say the same for here :banana:

[Nordicguy]

That reminds me, is there a new section being cut or is that the section everyone is talking about? I saw an area that was flagged and looked like it had an uphill rock garden being built. I hope it's new because it looked pretty sweet!

[mara]

That reminds me, is there a new section being cut or is that the section everyone is talking about? I saw an area that was flagged and looked like it had an uphill rock garden being built. I hope it's new because it looked pretty sweet!

There sure is!

We'll be fixing up some Luce Line related issues over the next session or two, but after that we'll be back at work in the new section. There are a *lot* of rocks that will need to be moved and placed to get the section going. In addition to our current armoring project, there will be one smaller armor and one retaining walled climbing turn o'rocks that will get built faster or slower depending on volunteer turnout.

Once we've completed rock work, we get to move on to the really fun stuff :jumpy:

[quickerpicker]

There are a *lot* of rocks that will need to be moved and placed to get the section going.

I will be available in 2 weeks. with the completed trail, I can ride down, hurt myself, and ride back! Yippee!!

I was paddling with Craig Rudd this morning, and he said most of the re-route of the ski trail is already done. It didn't look that way to me, but then again, when I ride, I usually spend my time trying not to fall over, not looking for trails, flagged areas, etc.

[mara]

I was paddling with Craig Rudd this morning, and he said most of the re-route of the ski trail is already done.

Done is relative. The parts adjacent to the LL are deforested and planted -- that's what the extra wide shoulder on the north side will become. The part that splits off from the LL to rejoin the old ski trail at the top of the hill is flagged but otherwise untouched. We will be revisiting the exact route with Craig and John sometime in the next couple weeks. John thinks they will cut the line closer towards fall, but before their trailwork day. The skiers will also be doing seeding and erosion mitigation on the fall line old ski trail between the LL and where the ski trail reroute will pop in on top of the hill.

Edit: All that babble and I forget the most important part. Yay -- we'd love to have your help playing with rocks. Thanks!

[topher]

I ski across Isle, Cedar and Brownie and then to the bog area. What I hate? I hate seeing a bunch of idiots in ten gallon sorrel's walking in the tracks I made going across the lake the night before. For real! Are they seriously thinking I want their foot prints in my tracks!

It's even worse when they have snowshoes under those boots.


Agreed. People who walk or snowshoe on groomed ski trails are one circle of hell up from people who ride wet trails.


I've learned that the walkers on the Wirth ski trails can get extremely hostile when even politely asked to stay off the trails. Walkers on ski trails drive me nuts :banghead:

As far as bikes crossing the trail in a few spots, who cares. Your kick wax is not going to get wrecked by a little dirt. If you feel that it has you either A. Have it all in your head or B. Are not a very good classic skier, time to work on fixing your technique :D

In the end it's not worth getting uptight about dirt, walkers, bikers, or anything else around here that ends up on the ski trail. If you have ever lived on the East side of the cities you know that we have it soooooooo much better here on the West side. It's typical to see more walkers on the trail on the East side than skiers, I can't say the same for here :banana:

I think a lot of people are noobs when it comes to this kind of thing. Try not to get on a high horse.

It wasn't until I found this site that I learned how bad mtb on a wet trail really is. No one told me that. Prior to living here, when it rained, that's when all of my friends and I would go out to ride, it was fun getting muddy.

And until today, I had no idea it was in poor taste to walk on a groomed trail. I had just assumed that it was fair use as a multi-activity trail. I'd like to think a lot of other "commoners" didn't know that also.


**disclaimer** I've NEVER rode on wet trails in MN, nor have I walked on groomed snow trails.

[Nordicguy]

I totally understand this. That is why I start out by nicely explaining the park rules and the problems walkers cause on the ski trails when I see people walking on them. 95% of the time people are nice about it and will get off the trails. They may have not know they should stay off the trails or they may have thought that it doesn't really matter.

Wirth Park is the only place where I have had people's immediate response to me asking them to stay off the trail be, "to go F*$% myself." I'm fairly certain these people know not to walk on the trail.

Many parks around here including any Three Rivers Park will write tickets to walkers on the trail.
I don't think that Wirth is especially well marked with signs saying no walking but at the Three Rivers Parks you basically need to walk over a barrier with a large sign that says NO WALKING


I think a lot of people are noobs when it comes to this kind of thing. Try not to get on a high horse.

It wasn't until I found this site that I learned how bad mtb on a wet trail really is. No one told me that. Prior to living here, when it rained, that's when all of my friends and I would go out to ride, it was fun getting muddy.

And until today, I had no idea it was in poor taste to walk on a groomed trail. I had just assumed that it was fair use as a multi-activity trail. I'd like to think a lot of other "commoners" didn't know that also.


**disclaimer** I've NEVER rode on wet trails in MN, nor have I walked on groomed snow trails.

[Trevize1138]

I think a lot of people are noobs when it comes to this kind of thing. Try not to get on a high horse.

It wasn't until I found this site that I learned how bad mtb on a wet trail really is. No one told me that. Prior to living here, when it rained, that's when all of my friends and I would go out to ride, it was fun getting muddy.

And until today, I had no idea it was in poor taste to walk on a groomed trail. I had just assumed that it was fair use as a multi-activity trail. I'd like to think a lot of other "commoners" didn't know that also.


**disclaimer** I've NEVER rode on wet trails in MN, nor have I walked on groomed snow trails.

Spot on, Chris. It gets nobody anywhere when we don't give others the benefit of the doubt. That goes for whether you're assuming someone "didn't do the job right" with respect to trail building/advocacy or assuming someone's "just a jerk" when they ride muddy trails or walk on ski tracks.

Your post is one in many, many examples I see proving that the vast majority of people want to do the right thing. Sure, jerks exist, but they're in the minority. Treating everyone like jerks becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[mara]

That goes for whether you're assuming someone "didn't do the job right" with respect to trail building/advocacy or assuming someone's "just a jerk" when they ride muddy trails or walk on ski tracks.

Actually, I'm referring to the jerks who are jerks. The ones who won't leave a wet trail when asked, even when they're leaving huge ruts because "we can't make them," are the folks I'm talking about. For skiing, it's the guy standing in the middle of a downhill ski trail right next to the "please do not walk on ski trails" sign.

I do like your self righteous rant on self righteousness, though :p

[gopherhockey]

Your post is one in many, many examples I see proving that the vast majority of people want to do the right thing. Sure, jerks exist, but they're in the minority. Treating everyone like jerks becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

And then there are those that think MORC needs to get over itself. (a comment I heard a few times recently) Ironic... :cool:

[QtmMech]

And until today, I had no idea it was in poor taste to walk on a groomed trail. I had just assumed that it was fair use as a multi-activity trail. I'd like to think a lot of other "commoners" didn't know that also.



Hey one walker educated is "Wirth my whine." I didn't know it was so very bad to ride around puddles until the first time someone 'splained it to me, either. The 'commoners' at first often think they are being polite walking on the side of the trail, but that is right on the most critical part of the groom, the classic track.

My classic technique is getting better, been working on it for more than five years. I was above the middle of the pack at the COLL this year --- too much Klister for the lakes. But I don't care how good one is, when the wax is on the edge of functional or the slope is just barely stridable, post holes can completely ruin the momentum. I don't get too bent out of shape, since I am skiing and that is the closest thing there is to paradise.

My use of the words "persnickety" and "prissy" were meant to poke a little fun at myself and reduce the negativity down to the molehill level.:)

[mara]

My use of the words "persnickety" and "prissy" were meant to poke a little fun at myself and reduce the negativity down to the molehill level.:)

Classic/traditional skiers do seem to "snit" well. I suspect it is because skaters are too busy panting and gasping to have air left over to get worked up. ;)

[Nordicguy]

That's why you need to learn both techniques so you can get snitty and pant :)

Though I will say that when I try to classic ski fast I feel like I'm sucking just as much wind as when I am skating:D


Classic/traditional skiers do seem to "snit" well. I suspect it is because skaters are too busy panting and gasping to have air left over to get worked up. ;)

[mara]

That's why you need to learn both techniques so you can get snitty and pant :)

Working on that part. I am probably the only skater on earth who absolutely cannot seem to master (or locomote using) striding.

[quickerpicker]

That's why you need to learn both techniques so you can get snitty and pant :)

Though I will say that when I try to classic ski fast I feel like I'm sucking just as much wind as when I am skating:D

Well, Evan - I guess that makes you "Mr. Snitty Pants":D

I used to say I can't skate to save my life, but now maybe just to save my life. I can fake weight transfer better when I classic.

How fortunate we are to be able to rant about sharing space for skiing, mountain biking, commuting, and walking.

[quickerpicker]

Working on that part. I am probably the only skater on earth who absolutely cannot seem to master (or locomote using) striding.

Evan would be a real good teacher to learn striding, as he already coaches. If you want some tips from a rookie however, let me know.

[mara]

How fortunate we are to be able to rant about sharing space for skiing, mountain biking, commuting, and walking.

And trail running and my personal favorite, snowshoe derby!

Theo has a crazy lot of recreational opportunities, many existing during parts of the year when sane people are sitting at home in front of the fireplace.

[mara]

Evan would be a real good teacher to learn striding, as he already coaches. If you want some tips from a rookie however, let me know.

I may take you up on that this winter.

A wonderful "real" teacher has tried a couple times to get me moving, but has run up against the the yes, I have an engine but absolutely zero coordination problem. I kinda sorta know what I *should* be doing, but getting my body to actually do what it is supposed to is another story.

[quickerpicker]

I may take you up on that this winter.

A wonderful "real" teacher has tried a couple times to get me moving, but has run up against the the yes, I have an engine but absolutely zero coordination problem. I kinda sorta know what I *should* be doing, but getting my body to actually do what it is supposed to is another story.

That's easy. You just need to create some muscle memory. We can start now. Get some poles and practice nordic walking. It's even trendy now. If you can't figure it out before, I can show you at the next trail work I can make on the 29th.

[quickerpicker]

And trail running and my personal favorite, snowshoe derby!

Theo has a crazy lot of recreational opportunities, many existing during parts of the year when sane people are sitting at home in front of the fireplace.

Can't say I've ever done any snowshoe running. I do like the trail running, but many people can walk the trails as fast as I run them.

As for the sitting in front of the fireplace, ever since I took on fall/winter/spring outdoor sports, I have not gotten depressed. Exhausted and cold, yes, depressed, no. Works for me.

[tacdad]

Theo has a crazy lot of recreational opportunities, many existing during parts of the year when sane people are sitting at home in front of the fireplace.

These activities just make the fire feel that much better.

[mara]

I do like the trail running, but many people can walk the trails as fast as I run them.

I don't really run as much as lumber, but I actually get to see and enjoy all of the trail whereas the fast kids probably only see a blur.

The journey is the destination, right? Who cares how fast you get there as long as it's a fun trip :)

[steef]

What was this thread about anyways?

Oh yeah, reroutes.

We're pretty sure the new route will be as much fun to ride.

[Wheels]

Twister is gone? I think a little part of me just died.

Good to see how civilized a conversation can be between skiers and bikers. It's all about sharing the space and working together, it's all multi-use out there, may as well get along.

I know MOCA did due diligence on the Luce Line issue. We've known about the plans from day one, before we ever stuck a shovel in the ground. We did our best to design around all the potential routes - knowing that we would loose some trail eventually. The skiers have known this from the onset as well.

MOCA has been completely in the loop ever since, there have been many meetings with the park partners, the 3RPD and the MPRB. Everything was up front and we were fully involved. Everyone involved compromised, everyone agreed to agree - it was a very involved process for all user groups.

I'm really happy that the Luce Line trail is done and that it's where it is. I grew up near the trail in Maple Plain - but we could never get any further than Pymouth. Now people can ride all the way downtown - or all the way to western MN.

I'm just glad they let us build bike trails at all - but disappointed nontheless that we've lost some of my favorite trail. But there could be better trails to be had, only it's going to take some hard work to get them.

MOCA members have been working from the beginning to place ourselves in a position to be part of the decision making process. Three years ago we participated on a MPRB committee to determine the best placement for bike trails, walking trails, and ski trails in the area of Wirth Park between Glenwood Ave. and 394. There are informal agreements with every user group or park steward for the areas between Cedar Lake and the current trails system.

We also have a great deal of support from the planners and Board at the MPRB, and the City Council. We have thousands of volunteer hours banked that can be used to procure grants and funding, and the support of the State and International cycling advocates.

It's there to be had, if you want more sweet trail - help MOCA and MORC by volunteering, and send IMBA a few bucks too.

[jjrsds]

Trail was great thanks for the hard work in keeping it open for future use.

[jitterjepp]

Twister is gone? I think a little part of me just died.


You guys have all done a class act job from the beginning. We all complained at the start but what did you expect? I know nobody expected it to go this far. I didn't. We were still punk when it started.

I'm pretty damn happy with the way things have been laid out and all the people who have served on the MOCA board and all the volunteers. All you guys really worked it and those there now are still doing it. I don't for a second feel like our old trails are in the hands of people who don't ride or care or know about the experience I'm looking for. I'm getting to close to two decades at wirth and it keeps getting better.

I saw one of my old shovels on the table. I think they found it when they put the Luce in. Or was that ____? Wait, ___ at over at ___ under that slab of concrete or are those ___?

[danomyte]

Yeah, that section that is gone was one of my favorites. But... to have a paved trail built right through the middle of Theo and have representatives involved in the decision process, I would say the impact was very minimal all things considered. Hats off to the Theo crew! It's a bit different, but it's still Theo and it's back! :banana:

[stoneage]

Skiers win again.

[Trevize1138]

I'm still pissed that Theo didn't move down to south central MN with me and y'all are whining about some extra blacktop. :crazy:

[Wheels]

Skiers win again.

Right. It was a win-win for everyone. Or lose-lose, the skiers lost trail alignment that was important to them as well. Compromise is not a bad thing, it's how things get done.

[At the Gates 2121]

Thanks guys.

I appreciate all of your comments and great ideas...

...If your support keeps up Theo will not only be known as having tight, twisty and flowy singletrack but also as the first trail in the state with a COMPLAINT BOX at the trailhead next to the KIOSK. :eyeroll::laugh:


Excellent we need one of those suggestion boxes

[guest_s]

Skiers win again.

They didn't win. If you would have seen what they wanted to do, you would realize they didn't even come close to winning.

[stoneage]

Just saying that they seem to get the jump on the MTB crew every time. For example, the whole SE and SW sections. There is no reason we shouldn't be in those sections. None at all. They are, we aren't; that's all I meant. I really don't care about a little lost trail on something as small as the existing Wirth. Not a big deal.

[Wheels]

Just saying that they seem to get the jump on the MTB crew every time. For example, the whole SE and SW sections. There is no reason we shouldn't be in those sections. None at all. They are, we aren't; that's all I meant. I really don't care about a little lost trail on something as small as the existing Wirth. Not a big deal.

We have access to the SW trails, we gave up the SE to get the SW (and that doesn't mean we may not still have access to the SE area as well). What we bartered there is a relatively small area, what we got in return is the best terrain in the city.

We actually got the skiers to fix the problems they had in the SE area, and everyone is now happy and willing to work together.

If we want to be there at all it's going to take the same kind of effort the skiers made in the first place - organization, political savvy, and money. It's there to be had, nobody beat us to the punch, nobody is keeping us from developing the rest of the system but ourselves.

Bitching about what someone else has is easy, going out and getting it yourself is the hard part.

[stoneage]

"everyone is now happy and willing to work together"
Great.
"organization, political savvy, and money"
Yep.
"a relatively small area"
With the best terrain in the metro, if it's the same area I'm talking about. And it's not that small. It's the same area that caused the bikers to be banned from the area 8 years ago.

[Wheels]

"everyone is now happy and willing to work together"
Great.
"organization, political savvy, and money"
Yep.
"a relatively small area"
With the best terrain in the metro, if it's the same area I'm talking about. And it's not that small. It's the same area that caused the bikers to be banned from the area 8 years ago.

It's all relative Bill - the area that would be available to us there is small and difficult to create shared use plans upon (logistically and politically). Would you rather we would have made a big stink about getting that small overpopulated area, or make a deal that opens-up everything else without resistance?

We would have been negotiating the trail placement in Butler for years, and nothing would have ever been resolved. The best terrain in the city is right across the blvd. - and we have access without resistance from other users (including the skiers).

It's so simple - we lost nothing, and gained everything.

[At the Gates 2121]

It's all relative Bill - the area that would be available to us there is small and difficult to create shared use plans upon (logistically and politically). Would you rather we would have made a big stink about getting that small overpopulated area, or make a deal that opens-up everything else without resistance?

We would have been negotiating the trail placement in Butler for years, and nothing would have ever been resolved. The best terrain in the city is right across the blvd. - and we have access without resistance from other users (including the skiers).

It's so simple - we lost nothing, and gained everything.

Its nice to have the fat o the land for once Yes!!!

[Specialeded]

WHY NITPICK?


http://www.rpts.tamu.edu/Pugsley/Wirth%20Theo.jpg



He tore down fences that surrounded Minneapolis park turf areas, and put up signs reading "Please Walk on the Grass" to emphasize his conviction that parks were to be used. Wirth understood the significance of beauty in human life, and while he maintained places of great beauty as public parks, he also came to be appreciated as an advocate of active recreation.Can't we all just get along.