A few bad apples can ruin it for all..... [Archive] - Minnesota Off-Road Cyclists Discussion Forums

guest_s

05-04-2009, 10:59 AM

Yep, it's true. Most mountain bikers are respecting the wishes of Three Rivers Park District and the Minneapolis Parks and Recreation Board to stay off the North Loop trail while the Luce Line is under construction.

But there are a few riders, some I know and am surprised we saw them riding the trail, that just want to be selfish and take down construction barriers (this is against the law) and ride anyway.

When riders do this sort of thing, it makes ALL MOUNTAIN BIKERS look bad. All the 1000's of hours of hard volunteer work put into this trail and the 1000's of hours of negotiations to get these trails legitimate and legalized are at risk every time a rider decides that they are too important to follow laws and rules.

I honestly never knew that there was so many self-righteous individuals on two wheels. It's surprising to see how many individuals that just flat out don't care about all the hard work that went into making these trails possible.

In the future when we can't get new trails approved, yes there are some areas on the radar just south of hwy 55, and when the MPRB is less likely to approve advanced features and trail additions........only then maybe you will see the negative impact of this type of behavior.

Kingbozo

05-04-2009, 12:02 PM

Name names! Public shaming is needed if it is people who should know better!

guest_s

05-04-2009, 12:05 PM

Name names! Public shaming is needed if it is people who should know better!

Well, we do plan to randomly go out there with our digital cameras and cell cams and hide in the woods. Sure would be fun to get a picture of a rider taking down or riding over a fence.........:D

kabbie_cache

05-04-2009, 12:48 PM

I know some here will say we shouldnt do it, but in a case like this maybe we should.

Maybe if the people doing this sort of thing were "called out", maybe they would stop. Per preasure can do wonders if used correctly.

ryno lite

05-04-2009, 01:05 PM

I think calling out people would harm MORC. Probably not a good idea.

ppgc

05-04-2009, 01:18 PM

I think calling out people would harm MORC. Probably not a good idea.
Yepper...

+1

berrywise

05-04-2009, 01:21 PM

ryno lite

05-04-2009, 02:10 PM

Berrywise is right on! There should be increased patrols and tickets. That isn't MORC's responsibility.

Reier8

05-04-2009, 02:25 PM

If the decide to close the trail for construction and want to keep people off they need to step up patrols and hand out tickets. It shouldn't be our responsibility to be patrolling the trails. The park department should use common sense that the majority of mountain bikers shouldn't be blamed for a few bad apples.

True, but if we have MORC members out there riding closed trails it will not look very good for the organization. Sometimes you have to "police" yourself (I do agree that calling people out would be poor judgement).

Pandl

05-04-2009, 02:45 PM

True, but if we have MORC members out there riding closed trails it will not look very good for the organization. Sometimes you have to "police" yourself (I do agree that calling people out would be poor judgement).
And how would the average Joe know they were/are MORC members? Hopefully they were not wearing their MORC jersey and socks. I saw a lot of people at Leb yesterday, and I didn't know if any one of them was a MORC member.

Reier8

05-04-2009, 02:49 PM

And how would the average Joe know they were/are MORC members? Hopefully they were not wearing their MORC jersey and socks. I saw a lot of people at Leb yesterday, and I didn't know if any one of them was a MORC member.

Maybe I am wrong but I assumed MORC/MOCA when Shad that he knew some of them.

Insert old saying about a$$-U-me here I guess :nono: :D

Pandl

05-04-2009, 02:53 PM

Maybe I am wrong but I assumed MORC/MOCA when Shad that he knew some of them.

Insert old saying about a$$-U-me here I guess :nono: :D
No, you didn't. Shad seems to imply that he knows them, but Shad knows everyone. I am just wondering how many would know they were MORC members if they happened to be walking by the trail area, and saw them riding out.

What I am gettting at, it would seem bad for all mtn bikers, not just MORC.

Reier8

05-04-2009, 02:55 PM

Agreed, it is bad for all.

jeffgude

05-04-2009, 11:20 PM

Maybe I am wrong but I assumed MORC/MOCA when Shad that he knew some of them.

There are plenty of well-known riders who are not MORC members. Conspicuously not MORC members.

guest_s

05-05-2009, 12:18 AM

Maybe I am wrong but I assumed MORC/MOCA when Shad that he knew some of them.

Yes, we know of some MORC members and a few that come to these forums riding the trails. Due to some of the concerns about calling them out, I won't bother for now. But it is funny to see how they try to justify why they were there riding a closed trail.......:jumpy:

quickerpicker

05-05-2009, 07:35 AM

. But it is funny to see how they try to justify why they were there riding a closed trail.......:jumpy:

History has repeatedly proven man can justify anything he wants. But it still doesn't make it right. It all comes down to selfish ego. me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me

Do less for yourself and more for others, then you'll gain more for yourself.

Specialeded

05-05-2009, 08:58 AM

I'm not sure what's worse the fact Mara had to put the fence back up in the middle of the trail the crosses the Luce line, or the fact she had to put it up 4 times in less than an hour.

quickerpicker

05-05-2009, 12:29 PM

maybe we need a ticket cam.... smile :)!

bigwheel

05-05-2009, 12:36 PM

Mills Fleet Farm sells an electric fence controller that runs on D batteries. It is made for cattle, but should be adequate for mountain bikers. :shocked:

85911

05-05-2009, 12:51 PM

Can someone explain exactly where on the trail the Luce Line is going to cut through. ie. trail feature/ landmark.
Thank You.

danomyte

05-05-2009, 01:04 PM

I'm not sure what's worse the fact Mara had to put the fence back up in the middle of the trail the crosses the Luce line, or the fact she had to put it up 4 times in less than an hour.

Was it for the same person turning 15 min laps? :fool:

While I appreciate everyone's effort there, I agree, this really should be a Park thing. If they need to close the trail like this for an indeffinite time they need to be responsible for it - ie ticketing people. It probably wouldn't take much, I'm sure the word would spread fast if they did start handing out tickets.

Susannah

05-05-2009, 01:54 PM

While I appreciate everyone's effort there, I agree, this really should be a Park thing. If they need to close the trail like this for an indeffinite time they need to be responsible for it - ie ticketing people. It probably wouldn't take much, I'm sure the word would spread fast if they did start handing out tickets.

+1 Where are the park police when you need them?

gopherhockey

05-05-2009, 01:56 PM

The park department should use common sense that the majority of mountain bikers shouldn't be blamed for a few bad apples.

I wish it were this way, but I know in most cases it takes just one moron to really wreck reputation that has taken years to build.

I won't go into detail, but we have a similar situation with Dakota County and the Parks Patrol. Someone claiming to be a MORC member created a stir one night as they were in the lot past 10pm... more cops were called, and... well... MORC took a pretty bad hit. Then they see random bikes out there when the trails are closed and it just enfoces it.

There are a few people that know better, but those are the ones that have a very strong working relationship with a few of us. Often thats just not good enough.

guest_s

05-05-2009, 02:27 PM

Can someone explain exactly where on the trail the Luce Line is going to cut through. ie. trail feature/ landmark.
Thank You.

This isn't needed for riders to realize what's closed and where the construction is. The area is pretty obvious being that the entire road leading into the north loop is a full on construction zone with fences, debris, and grading going on the whole way down the road (future Luce Line).

But for information sake to just show people where the Luce line is going through.....here is the link to the page explaining it all.

http://www.threeriversparkdistrict.org/trails/luceline.cfm

Click on "Final Phase Under Construction" to see PDF map of the part that goes through Theo.

Basically it's coming in from near the tracks on the southwest end and following through to the southern most ski trail that heads directly east and intersects with the service road (by the main north entrance to the trail). The Luce Line will then go down the service road and exit right onto Theodore Wirth Pkwy.

guest_s

05-05-2009, 02:35 PM

There are a few people that know better, but those are the ones that have a very strong working relationship with a few of us. Often thats just not good enough.

And that is just the Land Manager. There are a ton of others (golf course personnel, community advocates, construction workers, and so on) who also get a bad image of mountain bikers who do this sort of thing.

Think about it.......imagine a construction worker who put up the fences on Friday after grading and working hard to make the surface how he/she wanted it.......only to come in Monday to see their fences torn down and fresh mtb tracks going through their construction zone. First thing out of their mouth I bet is "@#$%ing mountain bikers!!!"

Yes.....it harms our image and efforts as mountain bikers every time a rider breaks the rules and laws.

85911

05-05-2009, 03:03 PM

Shad,
Thanks. I like maps. I never understood where/ what the sacraficial table was/is and could never visualize where this was going. Now I can see!

BTW, I have never poached a Morc/Moca trail, and am not looking to do so. I am however waiting for theo to open, although I now see that the construction is interupting a good part of the trail. Look forward to your new "improved" design. Of course, keeping with the original feel we like.

guest_s

05-05-2009, 05:20 PM

Look forward to your new "improved" design. Of course, keeping with the original feel we like.

That is what we are striving for. If you are not about to hit at tree at every moment during your ride......we are not doing our job.....;)

quickerpicker

05-06-2009, 02:40 PM

So when can we get our hands dirty and start trail work? after they are done?

guest_s

05-06-2009, 02:44 PM

So when can we get our hands dirty and start trail work? after they are done?

We have had a few sessions already. But since we don't have a ton of work, we haven't wanted big numbers yet. We do trailwork every Wednesday at 5pm. But not this week because we are waiting to get permission to park at the north entrance in a private lot. Once we get permission (mostly so we can get tools in) we will have full on trailwork. Yes, not even MOCA trailworkers are allowed access through the service road where the construction is going on.

quickerpicker

05-06-2009, 03:08 PM

I will be busy next Wednesday, but on the 20th, I could be there.
My 2 cents on the new trail is I like the way Murphy has side "trail features" for those who like the excitement, and a throughway for those who don't. I hope this new trail will replicate that design.

jonesdb

05-06-2009, 03:24 PM

I recently put 2 and 2 together and realized this will be my new route to Theo...Way better than riding the shoulder of the road down there.

I didnt realize the the trail went around the south side of the golf course in Golden Valley. (that sudden jog in the middle of the full map in Shad's link)
To me it still looks like it ends at Winnetka and starts back up by the tracks at Douglas.
I take this trail to Medicine lake from Winnetka a few times a week. It must use existing roads for a bit there.

BTW, will be a couple weeks before my shoulder is back in shape for any rock planting :/
At least my face is healed so I dont scare small children anymore...actually the reactions of strangers on the street a week and half ago was interesting...

quickerpicker

05-06-2009, 04:11 PM

I'm with you on the new route to Wirth. I leave my neighborhood, and its all bike trail to wirth, and almost all the way to my office. Looking forward to being able to bike commute relatively safely now. :banana:

85911

05-07-2009, 08:35 AM

My 2 cents on the new trail is I like the way Murphy has side "trail features" for those who like the excitement, and a throughway for those who don't. I hope this new trail will replicate that design.

What trails don't have this feature? :cool:(Not counting X, XX at Leb.) Only thing I can think of is the uphill rock garden at Theo. That gets me more than any rock garden, including Ted Mans' at Leb. Could be because I do it a minimum of 4 X a ride, compared to 2 laps a ride at Leb.

quickerpicker

05-07-2009, 09:17 AM

I agree on the uphill rock garden. It beats me on a regular basis:confused:. However, that's not saying much. It is a very well designed feature. I find it much easier to do when its snow packed:D. My comment is towards I like the flow of the North loop, and its deliberate lack of difficult obstacles, and I hope the re-worked trail will stay that way.

guest_s

05-08-2009, 11:00 AM

Speaking of "Bad Apples".....

mara and myself were at the trails this morning with the City of Lakes Loppet Foundation and the MPRB laying out the new section of ski trail so it will work well with the redesign of the MTB trail. Before I go futher, let me just say that this is the best our relationship has ever been with the Skiers and the MPRB.....who even offered to help come flag our trail and help dig so they can learn how we do things......totally awesome!!!

So while we were all out there laying out the ski trail alignment, a rider came riding by. A rider who had to cross many fences and now new signs stating that the trails are closed. Not only that but there was a huge dump truck and bulldozer operating right there where we were all standing. I yelled to him that the trails are closed and he stopped. He asked why.....in a very rude tone. At least 3 of us explained to him why they were closed, one of them being the MPRB person that was there. He continued to be rude and ask "Why" over and over again. Then he rode off, continuing on the MTB trail.

This is exactly the sort of thing that is going to give mountain bikers a bad reputation. The guy was a total a-hole and belligerent. He had a really nice 29er (didn't see the brand) and was dressed like a hardcore rider......so certainly someone that should know better in my opinion.

I guess I just don't know why some riders are so self-centered. It's all about "more me now!".....ugh!!!

KleinCrazy

05-08-2009, 11:51 AM

It is kinda too bad that the MPRB person did not pull out the cell phone and call the park police and have the guy ticketed while he stood there or as he was leaving..."might" have tought him a lesson, but it is doubtful.

the-one1

05-08-2009, 02:12 PM

No matter what you guys say to that person, they will be right back on it the next time with no thought of anyone else.
Just like smokers who flick their cigarette butts out the window. Everyone knows not to litter but they can't be bothered to follow the rules.

SwampYankee3

05-08-2009, 03:09 PM

Nobody recognizes me as a MORC member... I could do some vigilante work. ;)

jitterjepp

05-08-2009, 03:43 PM

I have an idea. How about since they use the trails we build for races we ask MNSCS, MCF and such to ban people from races for a year and revoke their license if they are caught riding on closed trails?

Since they aren't being a productive part of keeping a particular part of bicycling alive so the sports can continue maybe this should be taken into consideration when they walk up to the registration table.

9R33N 8Utt3R

05-08-2009, 04:16 PM

So i feel the only way to limit unautherized use of this trail is informing and inforcement. This is also away to advertise MORC. Putting big signs listing MORCs webpage and stating something about trail conditions may raise awarness. Also we as MORC can post members at the entrence for a few days and warn members that the park police are going to be stepping up on inforcement until the trail opens. To take this one step farther we as MORC can hire park police to patrole the trail heavier. We just have to pay the overtime. Maybe MORC could covince the MPRB to match the man hours. That would prove to the MPRB and other land managers that MORC is an organization will to share the burden of maintaining a mbt trail. Not that we don't already but this would be another way and a solution to the problem. The only way to get through to some people is to punnish them. There will be a few you won't reach.

Anyone have any other solutions??

soupboy

05-08-2009, 08:47 PM

Please explain why it would be bad to publicly out known poachers who know full well they're breaking the rules? Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

Put a Scarlet Letter on those sum bishes.

Pandl

05-08-2009, 08:48 PM

Speaking of "Bad Apples".....
This is exactly the sort of thing that is going to give mountain bikers a bad reputation. The guy was a total a-hole and belligerent. He had a really nice 29er (didn't see the brand) and was dressed like a hardcore rider......so certainly someone that should know better in my opinion.

I guess I just don't know why some riders are so self-centered. It's all about "more me now!".....ugh!!!
Just because he is dressed like that, doesn't mean a thing. Can't tell a book by its cover. Sad tho. Obviously, his mind was not open to learning. Yeah, too bad no one called the patrols.

Ish

05-08-2009, 10:15 PM

This seems best left to the MPRB and/or soupboy.

MORC should stick to its mission. Not police and ticket poachers. There is enough negativism to go around. Let the landowners bear this. MORC should be the good buy - not the bad guy.

RedSquirrel

05-08-2009, 11:04 PM

Aaah man.

Wheels

05-10-2009, 03:13 PM

There's no benefit to calling out poachers - as someone else said, what's to say that person wasn't just riding out after seeing the signs - and it's a bad idea anyway, it's backfired on us before.

In case my name came up as a poacher - yep, I was out there last weekend - ran into one of the trail workers - Jason?

Anyway, I went out to check the construction so I could give Shad and Mara some input, and was on the trial along the tracks (Snake) until I came to the construction zone - then I popped out and rode up and down the Luce Line to see how things were laid out.

There, I called myself out ... and nothing to report, looks like you guys are doing a good job on the reroute.

I will say that where the flags are on top of the hill (just before twister) - we originally planned to have the crossing at the top of the hill, but were told to move it down a bit by Tim Wegner as you don't want a crossing on a flat surface - I can understand why you're moving it - if it ends up paved or prepared it won't be an issue.

On another note, I was looking for a trail to ride after doing my inspection and was disappointed by the new Trail Conditions page change - I can't tell what's open and what's closed (you have to be logged in to go to the last entry - so those links don't always work, nor are they concise when you do get to some of them).

As I was on my mobile - having to sift through the forums on a slow connection - finding a definitive response was a real drag.

Am I missing something here? It used to be so easy to tell what was open or closed. And how about a simple Google maps link on those Trail Report pages(?).

gopherhockey

05-10-2009, 08:01 PM

As I was on my mobile - having to sift through the forums on a slow connection - finding a definitive response was a real drag.

Am I missing something here? It used to be so easy to tell what was open or closed. And how about a simple Google maps link on those Trail Report pages(?).

Off topic, but if you know php, mysql and vBulletin and have the time to write a new trail conditions page please do. I don't have the time, and what we have now works for most. (it even works for unregistered users, I don't know what you were seeing...)

What we had before meant 2 separate updates and that was worse than what we have now. At least we have one and only one place for updates.

At this point work is more important to me than writing code for the morc site so I'm open to suggestions. But just like people who complain about the trails... put up or... :p

I have lots of ideas on how it can all come together. Just need someone with the time, knowledge, etc.

Now back on topic.

quickerpicker

05-11-2009, 08:35 AM

Well, if orange fencing doesn't work.....

The Icy River Vagabond

05-11-2009, 10:50 AM

NOOO!!! Please keep your trails North of 55! I run the areas South of 55 everyday and I don't want to have to deal with all of your nitpicking and trail closings!!!

Specialeded

05-11-2009, 11:05 AM

NOOO!!! Please keep your trails North of 55! I run the areas South of 55 everyday and I don't want to have to deal with all of your nitpicking and trail closings!!!

I assume they would be multi use trails...Not to mention if they are wet you shouldn't be running on them anyway.:eyeroll:

guest_s

05-11-2009, 02:04 PM

NOOO!!! Please keep your trails North of 55! I run the areas South of 55 everyday and I don't want to have to deal with all of your nitpicking and trail closings!!!

:laugh::laugh: Yeah.....why in the world would you want quality built sustainable trail that is legitimate to ride?

Whatever dude! All those parks belong to the MPRB and they would like us to build trail there. We are not going to argue with that......more good quality MTB trails is a good thing.

The Icy River Vagabond

05-11-2009, 02:23 PM

the-one1

05-11-2009, 02:26 PM

Jack White:
The big question is: Who built the trails? Runners or bikers?

guest_s

05-11-2009, 02:27 PM

Just saying. I enjoy running there. Evey day, and I am not looking forward to all of the trail closings and weird attitudes about your rights etc. that you have on the North side. I just don't want people interfering with what I do. There is always change, and like everyone else, I will accept it. That's just the way life is. There are already enough mtn bikers that ride on the south side and rut up the trails as it is, I guess maybe if you build a trail system for them they will just mess that up instead. That's cool. I will probably help you build it if you are able to.

In reality, we don't have that many trail closings. Just when the trails are wet and during spring thaw. And honestly, if I built a non-sanctioned trail, I would hope riders wouldn't ruin it by rutting it all up after all the hard work was done to it.

For us, this year is different because of the Luce Line going in. It's a one time deal and soon it will all be over with and Theo will be back in action!

guest_s

05-11-2009, 02:37 PM

Specialeded

05-11-2009, 03:14 PM

The other thing I think is odd.....is how when I travel to any other MTB destination, they are very conscious about staying off of wet trails and know the damage that can be done. Also, a closed trail due to construction or trail updates usually doesn't cause such an uproar. But WTF......here in the TC metro......I don't get why this is such a tough thing for people to grasp.....especially considering that our soil takes a lot longer to dry out that most places I have been.

People just like questioning your authority. Haha :stir:

:popcorn:,"I said haha."

guest_s

05-11-2009, 03:25 PM

People just like questioning your authority. Haha :stir:

:popcorn:,"I said haha."

I know that is funny........but to be honest.....I don't have any true authority. None of us really do. We just do this for the trails and hope people will be understanding and honest with us........true to the cause. But there are many people who are not.

quickerpicker

05-11-2009, 09:11 PM

I know that is funny........but to be honest.....I don't have any true authority. None of us really do. We just do this for the trails and hope people will be understanding and honest with us........true to the cause. But there are many people who are not.

History has repeatedly proven man can justify anything he wants. But it still doesn't make it right. It all comes down to selfish ego. me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me

There 'ya go.

Ish

05-11-2009, 10:42 PM

The other thing I think is odd.....is how when I travel to any other MTB destination, they are very conscious about staying off of wet trails and know the damage that can be done. Also, a closed trail due to construction or trail updates usually doesn't cause such an uproar. But WTF......here in the TC metro......I don't get why this is such a tough thing for people to grasp.....especially considering that our soil takes a lot longer to dry out that most places I have been.

From what I have seen, this isn't just a Minnesota thing by any stretch of the imagination. It dates back to the days on Mt. Tam and everywhere between here and there.

I'm sure IMBA could validate for ya.