Trail-related issues: Grandma's Trail

[Trevize1138]

Another "pinned" thread?

This will be reserved for an open discussion among trailwork volunteers, members and anyone else with a thought on this new trail. What would you like to see on this trail? Got any connections to special tools, materials or youth groups looking to get in some volunteer time?

I'll start by laying out, very roughly, my master plan for this trail:

Step 1 - Southern Section: (Complete!) All that's left is some tweaking here-and-there but the corridor has been cleared and therefore the basic foundation is there. I'm not sure what the length is but it's somewhere between 2/3 and 3/4 of a mile. There's still plenty of room to lengthen this section and doing so could make it a full mile or longer.

Step 2 - Northern Intermediate Section: (Spring 2009) This will easily be 1+ mile of trail that skirts the border of my wife's grandmother's land north of the slough. When complete, you'll take two gravel roads to get between this and the southern section to make a complete loop.

Step 3 - Northern Expert Loop: (Summer 2009) Taking a lesson from Lebanon Hills, once the main, outer loop has been completed we'll start cutting an approx. 1 mile expert loop connected to the nothern intermediate trail. I'm intentionally waiting to start this one until later next summer because building expert trail tends to require more volunteers and more experienced volunteers. We should have both as a result of completing the main loop.

That's what I have so far. I've been pleasantly surprised at the enthusiasm for this trail and I think my plan for it is actually modest so this could happen! :D

[Trevize1138]

More fun with Google Earth!

I made a few paths denoted by color in the attachment. Phase 1.0 is in yellow, 1.1 in red and 1.2 in white.

1.0 is the current trail in the southern section. 1.1 would add about 0.2 miles and use the hillside on the Western end. 1.2 would add another 0.1 miles, again making better use of the hillside in that area.

This would make for roughly a full mile of trail in the southern section in addition to more elevation change.

[werts]

that looks sweeet, if i have the bench cutting done on friday, when you come out to help, we should start flagging and raking.

[Trevize1138]

that looks sweeet, if i have the bench cutting done on friday, when you come out to help, we should start flagging and raking.

Hells yeah! The red path contains the rocks I was telling you about tonight, too. They're in a perfect spot to make a left-hand, downhill turn through a challenging rock garden! :) I've already flagged it up to that point.

[werts]

awesome, because it would be sweet to get a full mile of trail in, that will make all the work done seem so much more rewarding.

[werts]

Well i just got back from a little rogue trail work :D, i focused my efforts this morning on creating flow. i first started by adding material to the drop in at the trail head.you should now be able to go both ways up and down it, however the up is going to be rather tricky. after that i worked on building log rides across all of the down trees, any tree over about 8in in diameter now has a ride over it, this will greatly increase flow as bottom bracket clearance should no longer be an issue. i also build a rock garden towards the end of the trail, if you take the correct line you should be able to boost off the last rock.

Wed assuming weather cooperates i plan on raking and riding.

[Trevize1138]

You're awesome, Tim!

Well i just got back from a little rogue trail work :D, i focused my efforts this morning on creating flow. i first started by adding material to the drop in at the trail head.you should now be able to go both ways up and down it, however the up is going to be rather tricky. after that i worked on building log rides across all of the down trees, any tree over about 8in in diameter now has a ride over it, this will greatly increase flow as bottom bracket clearance should no longer be an issue. i also build a rock garden towards the end of the trail, if you take the correct line you should be able to boost off the last rock.

Wed assuming weather cooperates i plan on raking and riding.

[Trevize1138]

I brought down a car-load of stuff from the cities and among the items is my pulaski! That means better bench-cutting. :cool:

[werts]

I brought down a car-load of stuff from the cities and among the items is my pulaski! That means better bench-cutting. :cool:

excellent, were you able to check out my work this weekend? everything should be good and rideable, im just wondering how well the log rides will hold up, as ive never made any before. also i found a slab of concrete that i used as a ramp for over one of the logs, and walking up and down it, it seemed to stay in place just fine, but a bike is different than feet. also were you able to get up the rock drop at the entrance of the trail, the rework i did to it, should make it rideable, but it will still be a little bit tricky.

[Trevize1138]

I had a crazy weekend, so no! :(

I'm hoping to get out there tomorrow to check it out and will rake if it really needs it. We actually got a good inch of snow yesterday! Time to sharpen up the edges on my BC skis :)

excellent, were you able to check out my work this weekend? everything should be good and rideable, im just wondering how well the log rides will hold up, as ive never made any before. also i found a slab of concrete that i used as a ramp for over one of the logs, and walking up and down it, it seemed to stay in place just fine, but a bike is different than feet. also were you able to get up the rock drop at the entrance of the trail, the rework i did to it, should make it rideable, but it will still be a little bit tricky.



Posted via Mobile Device

[werts]

no way an inch of snow? thats sweet, i dont think your car was more crazy than mine though, my half shaft sheared off at the cv joint leaving me stranded in eau claire. but my moms letting me borrow the fruck, so if weathers nice im gonna plan on a rake and ride for wed, unless my car is fixed, then ill be meeting my mom in belle plain for dinner at emma crumbies.

[Trevize1138]

The snow's gone now, of course. But, yeah, pretty impressive for so early in the year.

I've done some more thinking and plotting about the trail and now believe that phase 1.2 (map below) needs to be built before 1.1. Right now, the area for 1.2 contains a short, steep hill that's sorta fun going down but a total flow-killer going up. Re-routing that would only add 1/10 of a mile in length but improve flow tremendously. Once again I'm served with an example of why it's not only more sustainable to weave the trail along the hillside but actually a lot more fun (especially when your total vertical drop is so small!)

That said, Tim already knows I won't be able to make trailwork Wednesday and this Sunday is daylight savings so I'm calling it: trailwork's done for 2008! :)

Also, everyone keep in mind that the firearms deer season starts Nov. 8 and then please stay off this trail until 2009! Tim and I may be having some fun in January and February with BC skis, snowshoes, long-handled clippers and flagging tape in the northern section. :cool:

[werts]

i agree with you that 1.2 needs to come before 1.1, considering the fact that what that reroutes is also the lowest part of the trail, so if we can get that onto the hill side, we shouldn't have to worry too much about drainage issues. however when 1.1 happens its going to be a really cool section.

and i gotta say yea for 2008, we got a lot done in a hurry, but i think it was done well, this is going to be a cool trail.

[Trevize1138]

i agree with you that 1.2 needs to come before 1.1, considering the fact that what that reroutes is also the lowest part of the trail, so if we can get that onto the hill side, we shouldn't have to worry too much about drainage issues. however when 1.1 happens its going to be a really cool section.

and i gotta say yea for 2008, we got a lot done in a hurry, but i think it was done well, this is going to be a cool trail.

You're a huge part of making it happen, too, Tim!

That's why I declare Tim Werts Trail Volunteer of the Year, 2008 for Wells, MN! :cool:

[Trevize1138]

Tim,

Just left a cryptic VM on your mobile. :cool:

Nice work, dude! I just got back from riding it. I actually raked the whole trail first and it took me around 25 minutes to do that. That means most of the leaves are down and the trail's defined and packed in enough that when leaves do blow onto it they blow off it just as easily.

That big log still catches my chainring but I am able to roll over it. That just means a nice notch will get chewed into the top of the log as people keep bumping their rings on it. My chainring also catches on the one log pile I made Wednesday. Those will also settle in over time so it's actually good to build them a little tall at first.

Now that the log piles are built the only flow issues are the steep climbs both up from the bog area and up from where you pass under that huge, downed tree. But, the ground there is actually still a little frosty so those hills were impossible to climb considering that. If I have time I may head out there later this afternoon to see if the sun thaws/dries the trail out enough so even those spots are better.

At any rate, when you only have two sketchy spots like that the rest of the trail's flow and fun makes up for it! The bog area still needs re-routed but we may still be able to get away with one or two "impossibly" steep climbs in that section without ruining too much flow while still presenting a challenge.

[Trevize1138]

I did manage to get back this afternoon for another ride. This time I took my SS running 32:18 and that's about perfect. The weather's looking to be pretty nice the rest of the week so I'm looking forward to getting out there Thursday when I'm back from the cities.

[Trevize1138]

By my estimates, here is what we've built in only 2/3 mile of trail:

5 log rolls
1 log "double" (the space between each small log is one bike length)
3 rock obstacles
1 berm
3 short, steep, tricky climbs
More narrow tree passes than I can count

Tim, anything I'm missing? :D

[werts]

no i think that about covers everything, however it wont be a truly complete trail in my book until i have a glorious over the handle bars bail.

[Trevize1138]

Finally installed a computer on my bike and got a measure of the trail. Unfortunately, it's shorter than we thought! Close as I can figure it's 0.56 miles. I did three "laps" (1 lap = one trip each forward and backward) and ended up with 3.4 miles. From that I can extrapolate that one lap = 1.13 miles. My bike computer doesn't show hundreths of a mile, though, so I can only be sure of 1.1 miles to a lap.

The good news is now that the trail's dry enough that "impossible" climb out of the bog is, in fact, possible! Climbing over the log pile further up the hill proves to be the real challenge now.

I also took the time to snap pictures of the trail and made sure to get all the features we've built into it. Going to go upload those right now.

[werts]

well once we make those reroutes well be able to get some length back, plus theres always the north side to complete.

[Trevize1138]

Photos posted!

http://www.morcmtb.org/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=558

[Trevize1138]

well once we make those reroutes well be able to get some length back, plus theres always the north side to complete.

Quite true.

One other thing: my average speed was just shy of 7mph. For comparison, most trails in the cities I average 11-13mph. I'm sure my speed will improve as I get more used to the trail and it packs in some more, but even then it's a really twisty, tight trail that doesn't allow for much overall speed.

When we start building the northern section I'd like to make it a bit more open and faster. Part of me is tempted to go in again with clippers and a saw to the southern section and widen that whole thing out to increase speed. But, I think I'll regret doing that in the end. It'd be really nice to have such a stark contrast in feel from one section to the other.

[werts]

sweet pics chris, it really looks like the trail is starting to firm up a bit, cant wait to get out there.

[werts]

chris and i met up yesterday to do a little snow shoeing and back country skiing in the slough. we got the creative juices flowing as we started to figure out alternative routes to add some length to the trail.

snow conditions are good, im gonna try and get back down there this up coming week to do a little trail packing and riding.

[werts]

so i think we can better use the flat space in the slough, instead of having it snake back and forth. i think we should highly consider putting in a pump track.

so basically more turns through the flat that are connected with rollers and berms. so you could still pedal through it, or pump through it.

also Justin said he would be willing to donate the teeter toter, so if we can find a nice little down hill section. we could place the teeter so you ride on to it flatish then have it drop down.

just my thoughts as to how we could better use some of the space.

[Trevize1138]

A teeter totter would be sweet!

A pump track is certainly a good idea, too. My only concern is the time and people power needed to build that. It's a lot of dirt moving! :)

That said, we could lay out the trail with a pump track in mind, finish carving out the corridor for the whole loop so we've got something with decent length to ride and then go back and build the elements of the pump track.

That's kind of the general plan with everything on this trail: add more length as quickly as possible and after that's accomplished we go back to fine tune and add features.

[werts]

works for me

[Trevize1138]

Tim called yesterday:

Tim: Hi, Chris!
Me: Hey, Tim!

True story!

The rest of the conversation involved the status of the ice and snow at Grandma's Trail and when we'll be able to resume work. I'm heading out there this afternoon for a quick inspection but am hopeful that by the end of this week conditions will be ripe for some more digging.

Also, for all those of you who volunteered in the fall (one guy other than Tim) Wednesday nights are no longer good for me, so we'll need a different trailwork night. Tim said his schedule's open except for Mondays. I propose Thursday nights at 4 p.m.. We'll see how that goes!

[werts]

true story indeed! how'd things look?

[Trevize1138]

I finally got a good look at the land in the northern section and it's sweet! It's got a lot more hill to work with in addition to more land, so I'm envisioning some good, long, snaking trail up to and down from the top. Tim and I will have to spend a little time there Thursday afternoon and scout it out better.

The trail conditions in the southern section are surprisingly good, too. Definitely not rideable yet but if we get a good week of sun and 50s and 60s it may firm right up! What's odd is the only snow I saw yesterday was on treeless hillsides and I can only assume it's a result of drifting so there's just too much snow left to melt there. Drifting didn't happen nearly as much in the trees.

[dave t]

Drifting didn't happen nearly as much in the trees.
Drifting in the trees is called Rally. :D

[Trevize1138]

Drifting in the trees is called Rally. :D

YEAHHH!!! :banana: :)

There's a corner at Theo that's awesome for drifting on the bike, too. I'd love to re-create that somewhere at Grandma's. :cool:

[Trevize1138]

I took a walk down-and-up the trail yestreday and it's definitely free of ice and snow. There's obviously still frost in the ground but I bet a good week of 60s and sun would take care of that.

I also removed about 6 or 7 buckthorns that were nothing but flow killers. I finally decided that those tight turns were only "fun and challenging" in my mind. In reality they were just annoyances that forced me to slow to 1mph for no good reason. :cool: I'm anxious to ride the trail again when it's ready now that the corners are more opened up. If I can get my average MPH up to 10+ that'd be sweet. It's just no fun if you're not going fast.

[ryno lite]

I took a walk down-and-up the trail yestreday and it's definitely free of ice and snow. There's obviously still frost in the ground but I bet a good week of 60s and sun would take care of that.

The way the forecast looks, you should have some 60s by June!

[Trevize1138]

The way the forecast looks, you should have some 60s by June!

Yeah yeah... :). I did some more clearing today for one of the new little loops Tim and I scouted out. Spring does seem an excellent time for just that, too. I cleared the perfect corridor for a downhill rock garden. The rocks are just sitting up above, ready to be positioned.

[werts]

sounds great, once i get my april schedule we will be able to set in stone a work day.

[werts]

Chris and i did a lot of work today, and we did some pretty major reroutes and rethought out the original plan. what we are working towards now is to get a 1mile completed loop finished on the southern slough. this will get us some pretty fun trail. think theo mixed with terrace oaks. once that is completed we will start braking ground on the northen hill sides. we could when finished see around 3-4 miles of completed loops.

[ryno lite]

How many miles will be ready for the big ride out there this summer?

[werts]

well if we do the grand opening the day before bluff riders should have 2-3. you gotta remember its just two of us working on it for the most part.

[Trevize1138]

Thanks again for the hard work, Tim! We're both pretty pumped about the progress and decisions made yesterday. Tim at one point said the trail now has more credibility, which about covers it.

Ryan, we do hope to have more than just this first mile ready by the GO. I think it's reasonable to expect 2 miles at the least. I don't know about 4 but we could very well be pushing 3 by the end of the summer. I hope we could have close to that by June but, of course, that depends on our volunteer force.

Chris and i did a lot of work today, and we did some pretty major reroutes and rethought out the original plan. what we are working towards now is to get a 1mile completed loop finished on the southern slough. this will get us some pretty fun trail. think theo mixed with terrace oaks. once that is completed we will start braking ground on the northen hill sides. we could when finished see around 3-4 miles of completed loops.

[Trevize1138]

Here's a pic of some of the progress yesterday. Taken by my phone so the quality's not that good. This is just the first stretch of a 200-yard-long bit of clearing we did along the hillside that's now ready for bench cutting. We learned a lot last year about clearing a decently sized corridor and have even taken into account grade reversals. If you look at that patch of brush just to the right of the trail you'll get an idea of how thick the corridor was before we cleared it. We could both imagine how fun, fast and flowy this new bit's gonna be.

Behind that biggest grouping of trees you see to the left of the trail is going to be a downhill rock garden leading into this new section (pretty hard to see in this picture.) It's actually quite steep, but you'll have to take my word on that. :cool:

[ryno lite]

Looks like a lot of work! Worth it to have singletrack in your backyard! Keep up the good work!

[Trevize1138]

Here's yet another rough layout of what we decided yesterday. The bottom part of the loop is about 90% existing trail. The top part is about 10% existing trail (we built one section of bench-cut trail into the hillside last fall.) Google Earth counts 0.88 miles and while that's just an estimate, our current trail measures just over .5 miles on my bike computer so I'm actually pretty confident we'll get close to a full mile looping it this way.

[RaleighX]

looks sweet.

[Trevize1138]

looks sweet.

Looks even better in-person. :cool:

You're welcome to come down and help out the effort! Still trying to get a day of the week nailed-down for trailwork. Next time Tim's coming down is the 16th of April, a Thursday. We start at 4 p.m. when working during the week but work until sundown so showing up an hour or two late is no problem at all, especially since most people don't get off work that early.

Even one extra volunteer for just one evening makes a huge difference in the progress of construction!

[Trevize1138]

Great trailwork session tonight!

We must have completed 100m of bench cutting. Can hardly believe it. That's some fun trail, too. I actually was able to pump the bike through turns. Fun!

Thanks as always to Tim for coming down to dig so many times. And, thanks to Brandon for helping out and he's actually in Wells! :banana: Take care of your back, Brandon. Get that healed up so you can ride, bud. Also, sharpen those chainsaw blades and we'll get 'em to work on that next section.

Check out Tim swinging the Pulaski:

[Trevize1138]

If I do say so myself, Tim and I are getting good at trail building. :cool:

Last night we created a relatively short re-route to further our new looped trail plan and we can't wait to ride it. We wrapped the trail around the contours of a gulley, shot it down the side of a hill and ended in a drop.

We also walked ahead and plotted out some more future trail and found a great spot to do a pair of big, swooping linked berms like they have out at Murphy. That would be quite the project, but I now feel confident enough in our ability to realistically envision trail layouts providing for enough room for decent turns.

When I mapped out the first parts of this trail it was basically a lot of straight lines with short, 90* angles. Not much for flow at all.

[werts]

we are getting pretty dang good, and i think the reroute we made will be super fun. im almost considering bench cutting that one hill side just a little after we pop down into the gully, so it will have a little bit of a berm effect so we can really pump through the section and carry some speed.

[Trevize1138]

we are getting pretty dang good, and i think the reroute we made will be super fun. im almost considering bench cutting that one hill side just a little after we pop down into the gully, so it will have a little bit of a berm effect so we can really pump through the section and carry some speed.

I'm curious to see how that rides as-is. The arc of the turn may follow the hillside just right that it's already bermed somewhat. Plus, as we ride it we'll pack the dirt in a bit there and a "natural" shallow bench cut will form anyway.

When could you bring that teeter-totter down to bridge that next gulley, Tim? :)

[werts]

i duno, we'd need a truck or something. i suspose i could always dismantle it and strap it to my roof rack

[Trevize1138]

i duno, we'd need a truck or something. i suspose i could always dismantle it and strap it to my roof rack

That'd probably have to be the plan. How long is this thing, anyway? :)

[werts]

its about 12ft long by 13in wide, i duno if if will be long enough, and the timber isnt treated. we may be better off building a bridge north shore style with brandon by cutting down some timbers and putting planks across.

[RaleighX]

its about 12ft long by 13in wide, i duno if if will be long enough, and the timber isnt treated. we may be better off building a bridge north shore style with brandon by cutting down some timbers and putting planks across.

just paint the thing and it'll last for a while anyways. If you just wanted a bridge you'd be better off falling a tree and cutting one side off making it flat. 13'' is way to easy for just a bridge.

[Trevize1138]

just paint the thing and it'll last for a while anyways. If you just wanted a bridge you'd be better off falling a tree and cutting one side off making it flat. 13'' is way to easy for just a bridge.

We talked about this during today's lunch ride. What we may do is just use the platform of the teeter alone, sink each end in fairly deep and use it as a bridge.

Still another option, though, is to not bridge the gap at all, in fact, and just keep this short bit as a "shared" trail for the upper and lower loops. Reason we got thinking about that is because one of the downhills into it turns out to be pretty fun and we found a way to route the way up better so it's not such a flow-killer.

[Trevize1138]

Had a great work session last night all by my little lonesome. :cool:

Built a re-route around a short, steep and ultimately boring climb/descent. It needs to firm up more but once it does this will be a lot of fun.

[Trevize1138]

Josh "R" came down yesterday afternoon and helped me add a few, strategic bench cuts. After only a couple hours we improved the flow of the trail considerably. Josh also got to ride a lap around the trail wearing tennis shoes pushing his new, SPD pedals, a herculean feat in itself.

In other news, even down here away from the big city "politics" has reared its ugly head and forced a change in plan for how this trail will be developed. I don't want to bore y'all with details, but the short of it is we'll be focusing 100% on finishing and polishing the 1-mile loop in the southern section this summer.

The political "situation" did force me to take a well-needed, critical look at what we've built in the south so far and what we have yet to do. We won't have the 2-3 mile loop I was hoping for by the end of the summer but I'm actually OK with that. In its current form, our short loop has its moments and gets better all the time but lacks an overall flow. I'm not having as much fun riding it as I'd like and we may only continue those bad design habits in the north without ever fixing what we started in the south.

So, the new goal is to have not just a complete mile in the south but a damned fun one. If my average speed goes from its current 6-7mph to 11-13mph by the end of the summer I'll know we've done it right. :cool:

[Trevize1138]

That's the max speed I just clocked during my noon ride! :banana:

The re-working of the trail so far this year is certainly paying off. We've learned a lot about using the natural contours of things and effective bench-cutting to improve flow, speed and fun.

The most recent bench cut sections are on either side of the largest drainage gulley coming off of the corn field. It's down one of these sections I'm likely hitting my max speeds. There are two other, smaller gulleys that could use a similar treatment, so I've got some more flagging to do. :cool:

The first gulley is just behind Tim here in this picture:

http://www.morcmtb.org/photopost/data/558/thumbs/BB_pix_050409_072.jpg (http://www.morcmtb.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=7730)

Right now the trail behind Tim is basically in a straight line behind him and then wraps around the hillside to the right. The gulley goes up to the left so I want to weave the trail up one side of that gulley, cross it higher up, bring it back down and you'll have a lot more speed going into that corner below the tree.

The next gulley is just before the new drop Tim and I built. I've got the same idea in mind for this one and it should mean even more speed coming around the corner and off the drop. Sweeeeet. :cool:

[Trevize1138]

Thanks a lot to Tim and Justin for coming down last minute today! As Tim said in trail conditions, we got a lot of work done including some key reroutes that now mean you can ride totally fluid laps!

[Trevize1138]

Here's a visual:

White: Trail as of May 20, 2009
Red: Trail built last night, May 21, 2009
Green: Next steps

http://www.morcmtb.org/photopost/data/558/grandmas_052209.jpg

[werts]

If your going to be in the kato area, come on down and join us at the slough for some trail work tomorrow night from 4:30 till when ever chris's permission department makes him come home.

if you need a ride down, or directions from mankato PM me.

[Trevize1138]

If your going to be in the kato area, come on down and join us at the slough for some trail work tomorrow night from 4:30 till when ever chris's permission department makes him come home.

if you need a ride down, or directions from mankato PM me.

Bring your bike! I'd like to work only to a point but leave enough time and energy for everyone to get in some riding, too. :cool:

[Trevize1138]

Another great, impromptu trail session with Tim today. We cleared the corridor for the luge section. For now we'll just ride it without further shaping and just let the line define itself. Even without much more than clearing, though, it's already got a great feel to it.

[Trevize1138]

Did some more damage solo today. I built a reroute Tim and I have talked about to re-use some trail we lost due to a big piece of deadfall. Turned out great, and I did almost all of the work with just the flat-bottom shovel!

Two pix attached. One shows the trail after two logs being lengthened out before turning right to improve flow. The other's just a great example of a nice, s-turn section I reclaimed today.

[werts]

chris this looks really good. ride tomorrow evening? and possibly some trail work?

[Trevize1138]

Weather permitting, sure. I did a little shaping on the bottom corner of the luge, too but ran out of time to do a proper job of that. Won't take much to get that banked.
chris this looks really good. ride tomorrow evening? and possibly some trail work?

[Trevize1138]

So far, my bike computer counts a loop just shy of the 1 mile mark! About 1 lap +20 yards is where I hit 0.9 miles.

Tim and I talked about how to better use the terrain along what we call the "big gulley" and that would add approximately 0.05 miles. There's another spot toward the West entrance where I think we could tack on a spur to add yet another 0.05 miles. I get these figures from Google Earth's measuring tool.

Hopefully, by the time of Grandma's Group Ride, we'll have a full mile of trail! In fact, what I really want is *exactly* 1 mile of trail not including the short entrances on the West and East. That'd be cool: 5 laps = 5 miles on the dot!

http://www.morcmtb.org/photopost/data/558/grandmas_next.jpg

[Trevize1138]

I shaped the berms in the new luge section yesterday and they turned out really nice. Granted, they're more like glorified bench cuts but they ride great all the same. I did lots of test riding and tweaking to make sure they had the desired flow. This will be a really fun downhill once it packs down.

[Trevize1138]

We're so close to the mile mark I can taste it. I worked on a reroute tonight adding length to the fastest downhill so far. That hill is now about two times longer. Going the other direction, this downhill is just the first leg of a switchback climb going all the way to the top from the trail's lowest point.

[Trevize1138]

Wow, we are close! Just measured 5.7 miles for 6 laps on the dot. That's 0.95 miles/lap! :banana:

[mtb_andy]

Since southern MN is quite lacking I was thinking of checking this trail out. Maybe I missed one of the initial posts but does someone have a location on google maps or map quest of the trail head?

[Trevize1138]

http://www.morcmtb.org/forums/showthread.php?p=357503#post357503

Check the links. Let me know when you want to ride and I can meet ya!

[Trevize1138]

Tim met up with me for a lunch ride today. Was great to see someone else ride the berms I'd made for a change. I tell ya, building your own trail is a mixed blessing. We would have gotten in much more riding if we weren't constantly stopping to scout out this-or-that and say "What we really should do here is ..." :cool:

Tim and I are doing another noon ride tomorrow if anyone else is interested! He couldn't stand it after today's ride, traded his cycling shoes for work boots and took his shovel back into the woods for tweaks. Looking forward to checking it out tomorrow.

Thins look great for Sunday's grand opening ride! The winds these last two days dried it up nicely. Can't wait to see how the hot, dry months coming up here bake it like a clay pot.

[Trevize1138]

I finally put actual info on the Wiki!

http://www.morcmtb.org/wiki/index.php/Grandma%27s_Trail

[Trevize1138]

9.1mph average tonight! When I first completed the original cut last fall I was lucky to average faster than 6.5mph. The work's paying off as is my recent plan to take a break from trail work and just ride the hell out of it. Smoothing out nicely now.

[Trevize1138]

I need to talk to the land owner of a property bordering my wife's grandmother's land but I just found out the owner is grandma's cousin! One of these times when I ride out I just need to stop by, introduce myself and let them know what I'm planning to do in the woods downhill from them.

The plan there is to start with a 1/2 mile out-and-back spur and from there build a "return" trail to make it nearly a 1 mile loop. This would connect to the current 0.93 mile loop via 1/4 mile of gravel road.

With just 1/2 mile of out-and-back, this would increase the "lap" length to well over 2 miles! Granted, 1/2 a mile of that would be gravel road and about 1/2 of the singletrack you'd ride twice (once forward and backward).

Based on the feedback from the group ride a couple weeks ago everyone liked the trail, found it fun and challenging enough but agreed it's too short. We've got lots of plans for the existing section to make it more of a complete loop as well but that won't make the trail, overall, feel any longer. Adding this 1/2 mile spur will go a long way toward giving the trail a better feel of actual length. Once that's done, I'll feel better about completing construction on loops and adding more unique trail without necessarily adding to the length of actual laps.

A 2+ mile trail would be a great milestone, in my mind, because I've been modeling the design and scope of this a lot on Theo whose north loop is only about 2.8 miles.

My summer schedule's been pretty packed and I don't expect it to let up until after Labor Day. But, I expect to start flagging the new section in early September and if we get enough volunteers each time it may only take 2-3 work sessions to get that 1/2 mile out-and-back spur completed!

[Trevize1138]

And the speeds keep going up!

For those who haven't gone through this whole thread, I'm posting my average ride speeds as benchmarks for the trail and not my own personal riding ability. I'm able to average between 11 and 12 mph on most of the trails in the metro area. Based on that, with my average now up to 9.3mph at Grandma's you should have an idea of how tight/challenging it is. Also, I rode Theo a couple weeks ago and it now feels like a wide, open freeway by comparison. :cool:

At the end of the fall last year on the first rendition of the trail, I was lucky to get over 6.5mph. So, that should also tell you something about how much the overall flow has improved since that time!

This average can only go up, too, especially once we start cutting new trail in parts of the northern section as my goal there is, specifically, to make fast trail. We've already got tight, twisty trail so time to mix it up with some variety! :banana:

[russreed]

I always been interested in riding the trail; however I haven't made it down to Wells (from Mankato).

Is Grandma's trail open to the public or is it by 'invation' only?

[jitterjepp]

Also, I rode Theo a couple weeks ago and it now feels like a wide, open freeway by comparison. :cool:


Not for nothing but maybe that's because Theo is in the middle of a major metropolitan area and it's a trail where we frequently have riders out when they should be doing something else. It's also only 4 miles long and probably one of the most heavily used trails in the metro area. Maybe more support is in order rather than smite and some additional support from members for the volunteers and MOCA board?

It wasn't a freeway 5 years ago when it was only us there. So, what do others that have been enjoying our efforts and the current crew efforts have to offer? Hopefully it's more than bitching. We laid the original trail for us to ride. Then all the originals and others laid it out for you to ride and now this?

Even we didn't ride the wet trails. We re-routed them (because we could - not possible now due to sustainability with all you new riders) and didn't have to tell people to stay off. We stayed off. We didn't come here and complain. We rode. We built and didn't bitch.

So get out there and make it different. You guys are all here complaining about 4 miles and the volunteers and old guys are still working to get the 7+ miles we had before. You complain about a jump not fitting your style because you can't land properly or pre-ride and then you say you want something more extreme and you want to ride it an hour after a down pour.

You want more flow or this or that. All that stuff happens walking the woods and being a part of the layout. In the old days we walked and laid it out with rakes. Now it's on paper with GPS and things that measure incline. Get out there when the volunteers are doing that. This is also Minnesota. It's not a desert. The 14,000 lakes should be a fairly good clue about the amount of rainfall we get here. It's also clay based soil. Got a spare $2 million? I'll make it so you can ride in the rain. I know people who are concrete contractors. The trail will be 8 feet wide though and it wont be dirt anymore..

Can we kill the big arguments here? It's getting really annoying. Sorry if MORC people are salty about MOCA. I don't have naything to do with that. Not my fault and I appreciate that we have our local organization with (hopefully) the support of the umbrella. If not? Whats the purpose of all that anyway? We do have support here for it all on our own. It really seems to be going that way from a certain part of the origination that really has absolutely nothing to do with anything going on there at all. So step off and let them accomplish what they set off to do. If you don't like what they are doing get off your bike on Wednesday night and be part of the process that brings us to the river. While you've been bitching we've been waiting and working. Improvements come after we hit Cedar and officially take Brownie. That is the plan. Anyone unclear?

The other thing is this. The volunteers at Theo rarely get a chance to actually ride the trail. I've only been there about four times there this year and how many riders live closer than I do? Ask the rest of the volunteers over the years how many times they've ridden there. Most likely it's much less than you. That presents a problem when you come here complaining. You want someone else to build a trail you want. You don't want to do the work you just want their free labor and endless hours of advocacy. Well, aren't you a trooper for it all?

Just an FYI- this isn't for the casual lurker here but rather the constant complainers within or out of the MORC organization that can't/don't get it.

I came here and am here for advocacy for a trail that the next generation can ride. My ideas are solely based on that. I know how to poach and where to do it. My thoughts are about being part of the groundwork for the future. That's what MOCA is trying to do. It's for your ride tomorrow.

[werts]

Sean,

Theo is by no means a freeway, in fact its one of the technically tightest trails in the metro area. Chris and I only joke about it being a freeway because of how tight grandmas trail is, and how the tightness limits our top speed. no one in this thead is bitching about theo. in fact as the planners of grandmas trail, we planned alot of it around theo, and how challenging theo is. because we love theo so much.

so before you go off on some unneeded rant. come down to wells and ride.

[werts]

I always been interested in riding the trail; however I haven't made it down to Wells (from Mankato).

Is Grandma's trail open to the public or is it by 'invation' only?

yup it sure is open to the public. PM me and we can car pool down some time

[jitterjepp]

Sean,

Theo is by no means a freeway, in fact its one of the technically tightest trails in the metro area. Chris and I only joke about it being a freeway because of how tight grandmas trail is, and how the tightness limits our top speed. no one in this thead is bitching about theo. in fact as the planners of grandmas trail, we planned alot of it around theo, and how challenging theo is. because we love theo so much.

so before you go off on some unneeded rant. come down to wells and ride.
Well, some of this focus on trail problems seems focused towards Theo. It really does. Maybe time to lay off of all that. Well, maybe I'm reading this wrong but much of all this focus seems to be related to Theo. All these posts about when to ride and what to do about it when people are on wet trails... blah, blah, blah...
Is there MORC support for the MOCA efforts and support for the MOCA board decisions? I've been very happy with all the MOCA decisions from current and past volunteers and board members and I will continue to offer support for them in the future.

I just finally had enough of this. I guess I've become patient in my older age. That's new.

[werts]

There's a corner at Theo that's awesome for drifting on the bike, too. I'd love to re-create that somewhere at Grandma's. :cool:

hmm seems like a positive theo quote to me


A 2+ mile trail would be a great milestone, in my mind, because I've been modeling the design and scope of this a lot on Theo whose north loop is only about 2.8 miles.


totally pro theo

[quote=Trevize1138;365473]And the speeds keep going up!

For those who haven't gone through this whole thread, I'm posting my average ride speeds as benchmarks for the trail and not my own personal riding ability. I'm able to average between 11 and 12 mph on most of the trails in the metro area. Based on that, with my average now up to 9.3mph at Grandma's you should have an idea of how tight/challenging it is. Also, I rode Theo a couple weeks ago and it now feels like a wide, open freeway by comparison. :cool:
/quote]

once again pro theo, but thats enough about theo. this thread is suppose to be about grandmas trail. that said...

i could probably do some trail work this week chris so ill be giving you a call.

[Trevize1138]

Shawn,

Grandma's Trail is tighter than Theo. I said that as just an objective statement.

I love Theo and strive to make Grandma's more like it all the time. :)

Well, some of this focus on trail problems seems focused towards Theo. It really does. Maybe time to lay off of all that. Well, maybe I'm reading this wrong but much of all this focus seems to be related to Theo. All these posts about when to ride and what to do about it when people are on wet trails... blah, blah, blah...
Is there MORC support for the MOCA efforts and support for the MOCA board decisions? I've been very happy with all the MOCA decisions from current and past volunteers and board members and I will continue to offer support for them in the future.

I just finally had enough of this. I guess I've become patient in my older age. That's new.

[Trevize1138]

Had a good but brief ride with Tim and Russ Reed, a newcomer to Grandma's, Sunday morning. Great to meet ya, Russ! Hope you can make it down more often. =)

[9GUY9]

Not for nothing but maybe that's because Theo is in the middle of a major metropolitan area and it's a trail where we frequently have riders out when they should be doing something else. It's also only 4 miles long and probably one of the most heavily used trails in the metro area. Maybe more support is in order rather than smite and some additional support from members for the volunteers and MOCA board?

It wasn't a freeway 5 years ago when it was only us there. So, what do others that have been enjoying our efforts and the current crew efforts have to offer? Hopefully it's more than bitching. We laid the original trail for us to ride. Then all the originals and others laid it out for you to ride and now this?

Even we didn't ride the wet trails. We re-routed them (because we could - not possible now due to sustainability with all you new riders) and didn't have to tell people to stay off. We stayed off. We didn't come here and complain. We rode. We built and didn't bitch.

So get out there and make it different. You guys are all here complaining about 4 miles and the volunteers and old guys are still working to get the 7+ miles we had before. You complain about a jump not fitting your style because you can't land properly or pre-ride and then you say you want something more extreme and you want to ride it an hour after a down pour.

You want more flow or this or that. All that stuff happens walking the woods and being a part of the layout. In the old days we walked and laid it out with rakes. Now it's on paper with GPS and things that measure incline. Get out there when the volunteers are doing that. This is also Minnesota. It's not a desert. The 14,000 lakes should be a fairly good clue about the amount of rainfall we get here. It's also clay based soil. Got a spare $2 million? I'll make it so you can ride in the rain. I know people who are concrete contractors. The trail will be 8 feet wide though and it wont be dirt anymore..

Can we kill the big arguments here? It's getting really annoying. Sorry if MORC people are salty about MOCA. I don't have naything to do with that. Not my fault and I appreciate that we have our local organization with (hopefully) the support of the umbrella. If not? Whats the purpose of all that anyway? We do have support here for it all on our own. It really seems to be going that way from a certain part of the origination that really has absolutely nothing to do with anything going on there at all. So step off and let them accomplish what they set off to do. If you don't like what they are doing get off your bike on Wednesday night and be part of the process that brings us to the river. While you've been bitching we've been waiting and working. Improvements come after we hit Cedar and officially take Brownie. That is the plan. Anyone unclear?

The other thing is this. The volunteers at Theo rarely get a chance to actually ride the trail. I've only been there about four times there this year and how many riders live closer than I do? Ask the rest of the volunteers over the years how many times they've ridden there. Most likely it's much less than you. That presents a problem when you come here complaining. You want someone else to build a trail you want. You don't want to do the work you just want their free labor and endless hours of advocacy. Well, aren't you a trooper for it all?

Just an FYI- this isn't for the casual lurker here but rather the constant complainers within or out of the MORC organization that can't/don't get it.

I came here and am here for advocacy for a trail that the next generation can ride. My ideas are solely based on that. I know how to poach and where to do it. My thoughts are about being part of the groundwork for the future. That's what MOCA is trying to do. It's for your ride tomorrow.


holly crap:jumpy:

This is how to go off over nothing, and rant like a pro.

Well done my friend, well done.



relevant info; grandmas trail is infact tight.

[jitterjepp]

holly crap:jumpy:

This is how to go off over nothing, and rant like a pro.

Well done my friend, well done.



relevant info; grandmas trail is infact tight.

No, it's what happens after going straight from morphine and oxycodone to pbr. Damn it hurts.

You'd have to know me to know I don't care about being mocked though.

[werts]

chris what are your plans for friday night? i have class from 1-1:50 then would be open all afternoon and into the evening to do trailwork then ride. maybe we could crank out that wooden berm at the end of the luge section.

[Trevize1138]

LOL. I'm thinking I could crank out that wooden berm over the winter months. Friday's good so far. I'll figure out a plan.

chris what are your plans for friday night? i have class from 1-1:50 then would be open all afternoon and into the evening to do trailwork then ride. maybe we could crank out that wooden berm at the end of the luge section.

[silence]

its gfs bday or I would make the trip- ya'll want help the next weekend? ill come help friday or sat and ride... u could come ride here sat or sun if u want. I hear there is an interesting gravel group ride planned as well as a bit of a party (almanzo gentlemans ride)

[Trevize1138]

its gfs bday or I would make the trip- ya'll want help the next weekend? ill come help friday or sat and ride... u could come ride here sat or sun if u want. I hear there is an interesting gravel group ride planned as well as a bit of a party (almanzo gentlemans ride)

Do you mean Saturday the 19th? That'd work for me to start our new "work exchange" program. :)

Tim? Lucas? Justin? Russ? What you guys think?

[werts]

id have to check the work schedule, not sure if i work or not that weekend but we could figure something out. still wanna meet this friday?

[Trevize1138]

id have to check the work schedule, not sure if i work or not that weekend but we could figure something out. still wanna meet this friday?

Yeah, still on!

[werts]

cool, i was thinking on coming down after class at like 3ish and working on some areas that i got ideas for after the ride the other day

[Trevize1138]

Sweet! I'll be there closer to 5, maybe a little earlier. Drop on by the house if you need to grab any tools.

[werts]

did some sweet trail works with chris and judd last night

reshaped the second berm in the luge section. just need to reshape the third berm, and put in a 4th wooden berm and this section will be ridiculous.

widened the sight lines and landing for the drop, along with making the take off wider. in hind sight i wish the landing wasn't flat, but you can still boost off it pretty good.

while i was working on those two sections, chris and judd redid a section of trail had had no flow and was no fun at all, that section now is really fast and fun.

finally we cut an up hill switchback bypass around the uphill log climb. so you have two options now, get rhythm and get over the log pile. or test your climbing skills on a super fun uphill switch back.

up next is tentative plans to build the sneaky north and get a full two mile loop completed.

[Trevize1138]

Kinda ridiculous how much we got done! Was a pleasant surprise to have Judd (16 yo!) there to help. Hook 'em when they're young.

Need to chat with that land owner this week for sure about building in that new section. Feedback I keep hearing is this trail is great but too short. What? .93 miles not good enough for ya? :crazy:

[Trevize1138]

Some video shot with my BlackBerry last night:

http://www.facebook.com/v/1240924904395

[silence]

the gentleman's ride is SATURDAY this weekend...

I'm free to help ya'll on Sunday if you are interested or I will do some work over here or I will rest, no worries either way

[werts]

just got this email from chris

<table class="w100" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td><table class="msgHd" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td colspan="2" class="sub">Trail conditions ... </td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" class="frm">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td id="tdInf" colspan="2" style="display: none;" class="brd"></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="hdtxt"> Sent: </td> <td class="hdtxnr"> Thursday, September 17, 2009 2:52 PM </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="hdtxt"> To: </td> <td class="hdtxnr"> Werts, Timothy Michael (https://mavmail.mnsu.edu/owa/?ae=PreFormAction&t=IPM.Note&a=Next&id=RgAAAAAh6tIIHYdzTIACEYnAZIkrBwBiqlXfUbywRI%2fAd ciKdEO3AAACjQ9FAADgIpm3e6ZwR7ZFFqj7%2f%2f%2brAUiIN QnIAAAJ&fId=LgAAAAAh6tIIHYdzTIACEYnAZIkrAQBiqlXfUbywRI%2fA dciKdEO3AAACjQ9FAAAB#)
</td> </tr> <tr style="display: none;" id="trAtt"> <td class="hdtxt"> Attachments: </td> <td id="tdAtt" style="display: none;" class="hdtxnr"></td> </tr> </tbody></table> </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="clp"><table class="w100" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td colspan="2">
</td></tr></tbody></table></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="bdy"> # of posts to Mt. Kato trail conditions since May:

4

And for Grandma's trail ...

2 PAGES!

Win.


</td></tr></tbody></table>

[Trevize1138]

Yes, by my entirely scientific method of counting trail conditions posts I've determined that Grandma's Trail is more popular than Mt. Kato. :cool:

I'm sure "some" may think a more accurate measure would be to count the number of riders at each trail over a given period of time. But...

[russreed]

How's the ride today? Sorry I missed out. I fell behind on the posts and didn't read about the 19th ride until just tonight.

Anything (trail work or rides) scheduled in the next couple weeks? I am due to play hooky from work pretty soon!

[Trevize1138]

Russ,

Don't worry, you didn't miss out on a ride. You might be thinking about Drew's post but he was talking about a ride in Rochester this past Saturday. :)

Let me know when you're playing hookey!

[Trevize1138]

Tim and I walked the new section on the NE corner of the slough Friday.

We're both excited by what we saw. The trail here will feel very different from the current section with a lot more open areas and even some prairie.

The first phase will be a "high line" along the top of the bluffs with a small loop at the end to turn you around and head you back along the same trail. The next phase will be gradually building the "low line" trail bench cut along the hillside itself.

This area also is a lot larger than I first thought, and even with just a relatively straight out-and-back trail along the top we're looking at *more* than 1 mile of extra singletrack per lap! Actual, unique trail for the first phase will be just over 1/2 a mile, so of course, I'm counting the length of trail on the return twice.

For reference, I estimate we have about 0.7 miles of unique trail in the current section but a full lap measures just over 0.9 miles.

What's really exciting is we should be able to increase the length of a lap from just under 1 mile to about 2 1/2 miles without a whole lot of work. Since the first phase will be built mostly on open prairie we won't need to do a lot of digging, just cut/clear a corridor and ride!

The most common feedback I get on the trail is people like it plenty but it's just too short. So, this should remedy that in short order early next season.

The goal for the end of next season is shaping up, too. Since the high line trail in the NE section should go quickly we'll be free to concentrate on completing the loops and other fun projects to improve flow and add features. Ideally, by this time next year the south loop will have exactly 1 mile (because it'd just be cool to have a perfect mile loop) and the north loop could be as long as 1.25 miles. That's counting actual, unique trail with no looping back.