Preaching to the choir

[mara]

Don't ride wet trails -- you hear that on MORC so much that even the dead horse is cringing, yet it is apparent that some of the choir does indeed still need to listen to the sermon.

I've somewhat resigned myself to people who don't know any better riding the trails when they are underwater. I understand that some people just don't get it or just aren't aware of the damage they do.

However, if you are a MORC member, if you're on the forums every single day, if you see that we post that the trails are wet and that you should not ride them - YOU should know better. You do know better and it is seriously disappointing to see you trying to ride anyway.

It is very hurtful to see you --knowing how much work goes into acquiring, building, and maintaining trails -- act this selfishly.

If specific names are posted in this thread, they will be deleted immediately.

[soupboy]

Shad!

[guest_s]

LMAO.........Soup......your humor goes a long way!

[SuperClydesdale]

However, if you are a MORC member, if you're on the forums every single day, if you see that we post that the trails are wet and that you should not ride them - YOU should know better. You do know better and it is seriously disappointing to see you trying to ride anyway.

It is very hurtful to see you --knowing how much work goes into acquiring, building, and maintaining trails -- act this selfishly.

If specific names are posted in this thread, they will be deleted immediately.

If you saw active MORC forum members riding trails that were too wet to ride, why enable their behavior by not naming them here?

[mara]

If you saw active MORC forum members riding trails that were too wet to ride, why enable their behavior by not naming them here?

Do you really think it would make a difference? They know not to ride and I know they know not to ride -- if they don't have enough of a conscience to stay off the trails when they *know* they should, posting them here certainly won't change their attitudes; it will only start people hating on each other and we don't need that.

[Steven W.]

Do you really think it would make a difference? They know not to ride and I know they know not to ride -- if they don't have enough of a conscience to stay off the trails when they *know* they should, posting them here certainly won't change their attitudes; it will only start people hating on each other and we don't need that.

I agree.

Unfortunately we will NEVER be able to make everyone abide by the "rules". There are just certain people out there who think they don't need to play fair. That's why we have crime. We just have to advocate the best we can to make sure the people who are selfless and have a conscience know the rules. We can only do our best. Ultimately we probably won't make a bit of difference in the heads of the people who know better but don't care.

[ppgc]

1.2.3. NOT IT! Bad MORC Member, BAD!

[Slimpee]

Mara, I tried to give you rep points but i can't.

Anyway, I agree w/ you wholeheartedly! Thanks for posting!

[mara]

Anyway, I agree w/ you wholeheartedly! Thanks for posting!

Thanks for helping out tonight. It looks like babysitting wet trail is something we need to start doing regularly.

[hops]

I don't know. I think there may be some value in the public shaming of such individuals. There is a chance that it would discourage them from riding wet trails in the future. However, it would probably turn into a huge ugly mess. So.... yea.... Mara and Steve are probably right.

[hops]

It looks like babysitting wet trail is something we need to start doing regularly.


John, if you're out there, I would be happy to help do the same at Leb.

EDIT: by out there, I mean on the forums - not holding my hand at Leb. Although that would be nice too.

[MikeyB]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/ephidrena/Smilies/hitfan.gif

[guest_s]

Thanks for coming out and helping Justin. So far doing the Bike Patrol thing at Theo has done quite well. One guy had a bleeding leg......so after scolding him about riding wet trails, I offered to fix up his cut. Okay, I didn't scold him, being nice and just explaining to people why not to ride wet trails does wonders. I had some printouts of the PDF I posted earlier.....that worked well too.

Most people were super nice and understanding, even the MORCers who looked like deer in the headlights when they saw me standing there......:-)

[gopherhockey]

holding my hand at Leb. Although that would be nice too.

:kiss::kiss:;)



One guy had a bleeding leg......so after scalding him about riding wet trails, I offered to fix up his cut. Okay, I didn't scald him, )

At Leb we typically scold people before we scald them... but I might try it your way next time.

Thanks to all dirt bosses and trail stewards who see this kind of thing and still put up with it. Its not easy, especially when you know how many people have put in their time to help gain and maintain trails.

To those who are in the choir... I appreciate you allowing us to preach once in a while. MORC is about education too, so we need to have these discussions from time to time even if you have heard it all before.

To those who have heard it all before and it still hasn't sunk in yet.. :nono: super lame.

[MikeyB]

... even the MORCers who looked like deer in the headlights when they saw me standing there......:-)

Now come on...we always look at you like that. :p

[Susannah]

Thanks to all dirt bosses and trail stewards who see this kind of thing and still put up with it. Its not easy, especially when you know how many people have put in their time to help gain and maintain trails.

To those who are in the choir... I appreciate you allowing us to preach once in a while. MORC is about education too, so we need to have these discussions from time to time even if you have heard it all before.

To those who have heard it all before and it still hasn't sunk in yet.. :nono: super lame.

+1

Although I would prefer that the individuals be addressed personally instead of the whole group, I can see the merit in public education. You just never know who is lurking out there who might see this and be reformed.

[soupboy]

There are two sides to every story and I think somebody jumped the gun here. There are plenty of long standing MORCers on here and I think it is a bit disrespectful to make assumptions about their intentions. People commonly give a "heads up" about trail conditions by inspecting them personally, even if they are not a trail steward/dirt boss.

Innocent until proven guilty has a certain cache, at least to me...

[mara]

There are two sides to every story and I think somebody jumped the gun here. There are plenty of long standing MORCers on here and I think it is a bit disrespectful to make assumptions about their intentions. People commonly give a "heads up" about trail conditions by inspecting them personally, even if they are not a trail steward/dirt boss.

Innocent until proven guilty has a certain cache, at least to me...

That's why there are no names.

On the other hand, when a trail steward or dirt boss says the trail is too wet to ride, the trail is too wet to ride. People checking out the trail, even with the intention of bailing, both damage the parts of the trail they ride and give other folks the impression that riding is okay.

[Slimpee]

Innocent until proven guilty has a certain cache, at least to me...

Normally I'd agree with you. While I wasn't there when they showed up, I do know that they knew the trail was deemed closed by Shad earlier today.

I'd like to believe the alternative but if it looks like poaching and it smells like poaching...

[hops]

There are two sides to every story and I think somebody jumped the gun here. There are plenty of long standing MORCers on here and I think it is a bit disrespectful to make assumptions about their intentions. People commonly give a "heads up" about trail conditions by inspecting them personally, even if they are not a trail steward/dirt boss.

Innocent until proven guilty has a certain cache, at least to me...


That's a fine point.

If you were in the Leb lot today, you may have seen me and thought "what a douche", until I returned < 2 min later to tell folks that the trail was too wet to ride.

Edit: you may call me a poacher but I can say with all sincerity that you are wrong.

[jitterjepp]

To those who have heard it all before and it still hasn't sunk in yet.. :nono: super lame.
I agree and I'll say personally as one of the old builders it's gotten pretty lame building trail for people who don't care and won't pick up a shovel and that's really why I haven't been to trail work for a while. It just isn't cutting it for me building and maintaining trails for people who don't give a crap anymore. i don't ever remember having fix that much stuff on the old trails and we did do it.

I don't really remember much of that kind of stuff happening in the old days. We gave it up, we helped, we advertised and it would be nice if you could respect that. That pretty much goes for all the morc trail builders who helped to get this going in a legal sort of way.

Its not like we all just came here yesterday and took over the mountain bike world. We've been here for quite a while doing things.

[Rick Shaw]

Within my first couple days on MORC I figured out how bad it was to ride a wet trail. Continued talk about it on the site is a really good thing but what else can can we do to teach/ stop people?

[gopherhockey]

On the other hand, when a trail steward or dirt boss says the trail is too wet to ride, the trail is too wet to ride. People checking out the trail, even with the intention of bailing, both damage the parts of the trail they ride and give other folks the impression that riding is okay.

+1



I'd like to believe the alternative but if it looks like poaching and it smells like poaching...

+2 There is no reason to check out the trail if the trail steward or dirt bosses are on top of their trail condition reporting. We do all appreciate the effort we all put in to help update conditions but lets not turn this around so quickly.

We've had a lot of riding time recently. There is no reason for people to be pushing it to get back out there. Its not like its spring and we haven't been riding for weeks (some months).


that's really why I haven't been to trail work for a while. It just isn't cutting it for me building and maintaining trails for people who don't give a crap anymore.

Honestly aside from the obvious trail damage this is what I am the most concerned about. Personally I have gone through all the stages from :banghead: to :incazzato: to :eyeroll: but its the volunteers I worry the most about. You see them giving up their time to dig in and help only to have to become frustrated themselves. Having ownership in a trail is a wonderful thing but it can come with a price when you really care.

[guest_s]

Having ownership in a trail is a wonderful thing but it can come with a price when you really care.

This is why I decided to start Bike Patrolling after the rains. It's extra work, but we have had such a huge problem with people riding the trails when they are wet. We didn't really understand who and why. To me, it's a learning experience too. I get to see who.....and many times why. Mostly, people just don't know any better. In that case I feel like I am accomplishing something. There are a few riders who scoff at me and think it's ridiculous, mostly the old school riders who were riding there before there was a MOCA or MORC. They think they know better, but they still turn around and stay off the trail. In the end, knowing I kept roughly 30 people from riding the trail and educated about 2/3, with help from Justin, made me realize how effective this might be.

Will people still ride the trails when they are wet? Certainly, but as more people become informed, hopefully they will spread the word and we can reduce this issue. Honestly, if we can't......Theo will end up being all rock armor and Class 5.......and no one, not even the riders riding wet trails, wants that.

[gopherhockey]

Will people still ride the trails when they are wet? Certainly, but as more people become informed, hopefully they will spread the word and we can reduce this issue. Honestly, if we can't......Theo will end up being all rock armor and Class 5.......and no one, not even the riders riding wet trails, wants that.

Nice work.

Its important for people to understand that your efforts are not just in the name of "catching people" to yell at them but are to help educate. Its the right way to go about this and the right attitude to have. Assist, Educate and Inform... and we'll let the land managers do the ticketing.

Taken from the IMBA Mountain Bike Patrol site:


The NMBP consists of dedicated volunteers partnering with land mangers, land owners and emergency personnel, to assist, educate and inform all trail users in order to enhance their recreational experience.
-Assist in medical and mechanical emergencies
-Educate trail users of proper etiquette
-Inform land managers, owners and trail users of trail conditions through monitoring efforts

[Specialeded]

http://www.descent-world.co.uk/ARCHIVE_PRE2005/images/arrow_mud.jpg


Damnit, I just went out of my way and bought a pair of these so Shad and Mara have something to do during trailwork. Here I thought I was helping the cause of maintaining trails...There goes my good intentions... :banghead:

[guest_s]

http://www.descent-world.co.uk/ARCHIVE_PRE2005/images/arrow_mud.jpg


Damnit, I just went out of my way and bought a pair of these so Shad and Mara have something to do during trailwork. Here I thought I was helping the cause of maintaining trails...There goes my good intentions... :banghead:

How well do those work on wall rides?....;)

[Specialeded]

Not sure I only ride on wet concrete with them ;)

[guest_s]

Not sure I only ride on wet concrete with them ;)

Figure you would do such a thing....:cool:

Now back on topic please.

[singletrackmind]

We gave it up, we helped, we advertised and it would be nice if you could respect that. That pretty much goes for all the morc trail builders who helped to get this going in a legal sort of way.


Do they allow bigger signs to be posted? A nice 4' wide neon orange reminder above the trail entrance might work nice.

[mara]

Do they allow bigger signs to be posted? A nice 4' wide neon orange reminder above the trail entrance might work nice.

Unfortunately, not yet.

The city wants to project a friendly, inviting tone towards all park users and wants to keep all signage positive rather than negative.

We have been showing them examples of signage and trail closing methods used in other parks and explaining why and how they are effective in preventing trail erosion, but it is a slow process.

[bigwheel]

Do they allow bigger signs to be posted? A nice 4' wide neon orange reminder above the trail entrance might work nice.

Mills Fleet Farm sells battery-powered electric fence supplies that we could use to build a gate. The poachers would be shocked to know how quickly they can be educated if they put their minds to it.


Back to seriousness. If you are one of the people that "check out" a questionable trail, you really should do it on foot - not bike - before deciding it needs a test ride. Your credibility is much better. By now, you should know the problem areas and how to get to them quickly on foot.

Also, if the trail steward declares the trail to be closed then please respect his/her decision and stay out completely.

[dave t]

Unfortunately, not yet.
The city wants to project a friendly, inviting tone towards all park users and wants to keep all signage positive rather than negative.

So the signs should say "Positively NO riding on wet trails!"

[mnmikey]

If the people you and Shad are talking about are Myself and the group of MORCers that encountered Shad yesterday I want my 2 cents.

1. I posted earlier yesterday that I had seen the trail at around 830ish and didn't think that it would be ready to ride, then I looked again at lunch and thought that it was still a bit wet in the first section.

2. The group I was with was ridding near the trail head on the blacktop and I suggested we take a look.

3. We wanted to inspect the trail for ourselves, (mostly me, trying to get a gauge on how fast Theo will dry out)

I don't think any harm would have been done by letting us look, and just because I am curious doesn't mean I planed on ridding it. furthermore I don't think that any one MORC member should become judge jury and executioner on these forums.
If you wanted to know what we were doing there you guys know who we are, email me, PM me, ask. posting the assuming shaking finger, angry "nameless" post for the "deer in the headlights MORC members" does in fact make some of us harbor hateful feelings as you mention in another post. This was an assumption of our intentions at the trail yesterday.

I have worked on Theo with ya'll once and plan on doing more in the coming months and years, I have heard Tom and Shad talk about the damage it does to trails when we ride in wet conditions. I will adhere to these suggestions as i have done since educated, but alienating actual good MORC members without so much as a PM or email makes me almost want to ride in pouring rain.

Also not everyone can work on the trails , and freeloaders and Aholes will always be freeloaders and Aholes. bitter bitter pretentious posts don't make anyone want to to adhere to rules.


Don't ride wet trails -- you hear that on MORC so much that even the dead horse is cringing, yet it is apparent that some of the choir does indeed still need to listen to the sermon.

I've somewhat resigned myself to people who don't know any better riding the trails when they are underwater. I understand that some people just don't get it or just aren't aware of the damage they do.

However, if you are a MORC member, if you're on the forums every single day, if you see that we post that the trails are wet and that you should not ride them - YOU should know better. You do know better and it is seriously disappointing to see you trying to ride anyway.

It is very hurtful to see you --knowing how much work goes into acquiring, building, and maintaining trails -- act this selfishly.

If specific names are posted in this thread, they will be deleted immediately.

[jitterjepp]

5000 regular riders, 500 people checking it to see if its dry and six trail workers.

Awesome ratio!!

That said people get antsy and want to ride and people get antsy seeing the dammage. Find a resolution and respect each other otherwise we just run around cutting at each others throats instead of looking at the real goal which I though was having a trail go all the way to the river. If people want to take the responsibility of being trail checkers they need to get on board. I'm not trying to be a jerk but look at it from the perspective of trail workers having to fix the dammage from 200 people riding out or walking out to check it.

I can also see it from your point of view because I've been called a trail poacher for the same thing.

[mnmikey]

So I don't want to start some school yard BS. but walking down a small section of the trail is not going to damage it unless you jump in the puddles likes a little child. plus I learned to LOOK with my eyes :crazy2: not needing to walk down much if any of the trail as the first section is typically the worst for puddling. have said that I think that it should be established that we should find unique solutions to the problematic areas that exist. I spoke with :Edit about these yesterday, not sure if he was receptive about some Colorado trail building techniques, but getting water to sheet off the trail, or at least giving it an escape route would greatly decrease the drying time of these sections. I also wanted to say that the Grey trails in the immediate area were in awesome shape, not a single section did I encounter that I thought I should walk around due to wetness (HAHA I said wetness ok moving on).

ok I am at 4 cents, and only had a nickel, I will keep a penny for Mara's thoughts should she take me up on it.

Mikey,

All I gotta say is I am gonna take my ball and go home if no one else on the playground is gonna play nice.


5000 regular riders, 500 people checking it to see if its dry and six trail workers.

Awesome ratio!!
I'm not trying to be a jerk but look at it from the perspective of trail workers having to fix the dammage from 200 people riding out or walking out to check it.

I can also see it from your point of view because I've been called a trail poacher for the same thing.

[soupboy]

I suggest we schedule an offsite here (http://www.eckankar.org/Temple/) and just "hue" it out!

[mnmikey]

I'll shut my yapper, but I'd rather go fista cuffs than go to that hippie place you suggest. and to think I liked you Soup!! Just kidding heal well man, but in the mean time I could get you a umbrella and a chair and rain or shine you could let us know how the tail at theo is!! I'll even buy the first 30 rack of Key light!!


I suggest we schedule an offsite here (http://www.eckankar.org/Temple/) and just "hue" it out!

[jitterjepp]

Missed this part.


"I can also see it from your point of view because I've been called a trail poacher for the same thing. "


So I don't want to start some school yard BS. but walking down a small section of the trail is not going to damage it unless you jump in the puddles likes a little child. plus I learned to LOOK with my eyes :crazy2: not needing to walk down much if any of the trail as the first section is typically the worst for puddling. have said that I think that it should be established that we should find unique solutions to the problematic areas that exist. I spoke with :Edit about these yesterday, not sure if he was receptive about some Colorado trail building techniques, but getting water to sheet off the trail, or at least giving it an escape route would greatly decrease the drying time of these sections. I also wanted to say that the Grey trails in the immediate area were in awesome shape, not a single section did I encounter that I thought I should walk around due to wetness (HAHA I said wetness ok moving on).

ok I am at 4 cents, and only had a nickel, I will keep a penny for Mara's thoughts should she take me up on it.

Mikey,

All I gotta say is I am gonna take my ball and go home if no one else on the playground is gonna play nice.

[mnmikey]

so it turns out I am ADD, wanna go ride bikes?

Missed this part.


"I can also see it from your point of view because I've been called a trail poacher for the same thing. "

[jitterjepp]

so it turns out I am ADD, wanna go ride bikes?
Hang on I'll ride out and check the trail. If I don't get distracted by something completely irrelevant that is.




Ha ha!

:D

[hops]

Sorry man what where you saying I wasn't paying..... hey look Butterflies (as mike takes off like furry after a group of beautiful butterflies) what the heck was this forum about? something something Dark side. LOL. I still think I am right for what I said earlier, what ever it was.

Hey funny guy, you may want to stop while people are still willing to consider your first post.

I don't think you will.

[Smokin Joe]

Alright, this thread is really going nowhere and should simply be removed from the forums. If I was thinking (becoming a new member) of joining MORC and saw this thread I would have to wonder about the people that are members. Seriously, is this the kind of crap you want a potential new member to see? Delete this thread and let’s move on to a better topic.

I have meet many really cool people through MORC and have had so much fun riding, camping, partying and all the fun things we do as a group. This is what makes MORC fun, not the BS about this-and-that and pointing fingers at fellow MORCers. I know the people you’re referring to Shad and Mara. Do you honestly fell that they would have rode Theo? My answer to that is: NO WAY!!! They respect the hard work and time the trail workers put into building and maintaining the trails. I’m happy to hear that you (Shad) did educate some of the other people you ran into that are not MORC members. It’s a great way to get the message spread about riding on wet trails. But did you really need or fell it was necessary to point the finger at fellow MORCers? Look at what it has caused and ask yourself “did I do the right thing by posting about fellow MORCers” when you could have simply left that part out of your post. All you did was hurt the people that you wrote about (glad you left out the names and thanks for that) is this what MORC is about? No! To me, MORC is about meeting people that love biking, and bringing people together with common interests and much more.

So, with that said. Let’s move on to something better.

Peace and bike grease.

[mara]

You don't know who I was writing about and that was intentional. There were more than one group of MORCers out that day.

To the people that either did or attempted to ride: yes, you made me sad and disappointed.

Apologies to those of you who don't think we should post things like this, but we are honestly looking at having to add *truckloads* of class five to our trails to mitigate the damage done by wet riding. This is a big problem, whether or not you personally believe it to be so.

Theo has unique conditons. While it does dry very quickly, there are large parts of the trail that had to be built on flat ground. Potholes and ruts caused by wet riding cannot be fixed on flat ground like they can on a sideslope. If anyone is interested in seeing what we're talking about, come out to any trailwork session or hook up with me for a ride sometime. I'd love to talk to you about why we do what we do and the challenges we face.

[gopherhockey]

If the thread has gotten off base that is unfortunate.

However, MORC is so much more than camping and social events. While important, the protection of our trails and the respect of our volunteers also remains a critical aspect of the organization.

We should have constructive conversations in this regard, and that will include the discussion of not riding wet trails. It has to happen because education is a big part of who we are, regardless of how many people have seen it a thousand times.

If anyone was suggesting shaming riders I think that is off base from the original intent of the thread, which seemed to be promoting some good ideas on education.

I haven't read all the recent posts but if it has gotten off topic perhaps its time to clean it up or moderate so that people don't get the wrong idea.

[guest_s]

I haven't read all the recent posts but if it has gotten off topic perhaps its time to clean it up or moderate so that people don't get the wrong idea.

On top of this there are a couple of MORCers who think we were only pointing a finger at them. About 60% of the 30 some people that showed up to ride that day said they know about MORC, the forums, and the Trail Conditions page. So I think a few people are taking this thread and mara's original post a bit too personally. The whole reason why we didn't mention names is that we didn't want anyone to take it personally. The whole intent of this thread was to point out that sometimes "beating a dead horse" is needed. Really, it's as simple as that.

[Smokin Joe]

However, MORC is so much more than camping and social events. While important, the protection of our trails and the respect of our volunteers also remains a critical aspect of the organization.

=====================================

Sorry to leave out the obvious points of MORC, that was not intentional. I just wanted to point out the other things MORC brings to members or potential members.

[kabbie_cache]

To add a little more to this, Theo is not the only trail with this problem. I beleave every trail has this issue. I also beleave that something needs to be done to stop people from riding wet trails.

To me if we keep talking about it, it might finally get through to people. Kind of like a comercial. You here it over and over again and then you remember.

The problem isn't talking about riding wet trails, its the fact that we have to talk about riding wet trails. To me if the "conditions" page says the trail is wet today at noon, then I wont ride it untill someone post that its dry. It seems very simple to me ?!?!

[guest_s]

Thanks Travis.

My goal by going out to the trailhead is to help educate riders.....pure and simple. I even created a PDF and posted it. It's also attached here. I printed a bunch out and handed them to riders. It's really hard to explain how a trail gets damaged when people ride them wet.....so I hope a visual will help.

I was very friendly with everyone. A couple of people scoffed and rode off, but all in all it was a great experience and people really took it in and some even thanked me for being there.

[Smokin Joe]

Shad that's a great document.

Next time you catch riders on the wet trails I think you should slap them with mandatory volunteer trail work.

[guest_s]

Shad that's a great document.

Next time you catch riders on the wet trails I think you should slap them with mandatory volunteer trail work.

It wouldn't be very volunteer then would it?.....:)

But honestly, it's a great way to learn about the trail and why we do the things we do. When I first went to trailwork I was so impressed with the whole concept of making trail so water flows correctly. I had built many trails (BMX) in the past and just never even thought about water flow. I was hooked forever. Not that everyone will become hooked. But showing up for a few trailwork sessions can teach a person a lot. Even if they don't do much actual work.....it's quite educational.

[seberly]

Mara, thanks for posting this, Shad thanks for taking action and being out there and as you say knowing that you were able to make a difference. As the saying goes it's a long tunnel and I believe that light you see is the end of it.