Trail Conditions - Mt. Kato

[gopherhockey]

Adding trail conditions thread for Mt. Kato...

[9GUY9]

Tim and I rode Mt Kato today. Trails were in ok condition. Their beginning to get a lot of fall leaves on them and don't appear to get ridden much.

Still costs $8 a day to ride, which is still about $4 too much:cryin:

[werts]

the mad squirrel and pink poodle loops looked as if they hadnt been maintained since the bluff riders charge, they were fun but there was some decent was out in areas. the stair case was still in great shape, even though i couldnt get up it once again on the ss

[bigpeddler]

I was there a few weeks ago and spoke with the guy who runs Mt Kato. He said that it's not worth it to them to have to maintain the trails all year. So, from now on it sounds like they will just groom it prior to the race. :cryin:

[werts]

yea unfortunately that sounds like jeff

[9GUY9]

I was there a few weeks ago and spoke with the guy who runs Mt Kato. He said that it's not worth it to them to have to maintain the trails all year. So, from now on it sounds like they will just groom it prior to the race. :cryin:


I bet they won't stop taking my $8 though:mad:

[9GUY9]

Trail is closed for the year. Tim and I went out there to ride the last day their website said they were open. A guy saw us unloading our bikes and informed us the bike trails have been closed for a week.

[martini]

Mt. Kato sucks balls.


Oh wait. Lemme rephrase that.


The Mt. Kato staff/ownership sucks balls. They started charging as soon as the trails were built. Fee was $6. All the locals thought that was a bit much. Make it an easy $5 and you'd have more out there riding. Its easy to carry a five spot in your pocket. Change? nope. Now the fee is $8. Sure you can buy a season pass, but that's still a rip off. Sorry Mt. Kato, but the ski hill model just doesn't work for mt bike trails. I don't care how fun the trails are.

Doesn't pay to maintain the trails? Like maintaining those trails are hard. They were well built in the first place.

Err. I've got more, and could go on for probably pages, but I've gotta run. Kato-land riders could have it good, if only the staff out there gave a rip.

[9GUY9]

:laugh:That cracked me up.

I totally agree with you, there is great potential there but they do nothing with it and charge too much.


Mt. Kato sucks balls.


Oh wait. Lemme rephrase that.


The Mt. Kato staff/ownership sucks balls. They started charging as soon as the trails were built. Fee was $6. All the locals thought that was a bit much. Make it an easy $5 and you'd have more out there riding. Its easy to carry a five spot in your pocket. Change? nope. Now the fee is $8. Sure you can buy a season pass, but that's still a rip off. Sorry Mt. Kato, but the ski hill model just doesn't work for mt bike trails. I don't care how fun the trails are.

Doesn't pay to maintain the trails? Like maintaining those trails are hard. They were well built in the first place.

Err. I've got more, and could go on for probably pages, but I've gotta run. Kato-land riders could have it good, if only the staff out there gave a rip.

[martini]

In a way I kinda wish I still lived there. Why? I grew in Kato, and know the place well. Know where to put trails and what would fly 'under the radar'. I know I'm not supposed to say that kinda thing here on MORC, but hell. Mt. Kato could really have it good, with plenty of riders to keep things going. There is a decent volunteer base to draw from. There's plenty of terrain(not that they really need to add trail. Its pretty good as is.) to play on. But closing now? When its still easily riding time? weak sauce.

[Trevize1138]

In a way I kinda wish I still lived there. Why? I grew in Kato, and know the place well. Know where to put trails and what would fly 'under the radar'. I know I'm not supposed to say that kinda thing here on MORC, but hell. Mt. Kato could really have it good, with plenty of riders to keep things going. There is a decent volunteer base to draw from. There's plenty of terrain(not that they really need to add trail. Its pretty good as is.) to play on. But closing now? When its still easily riding time? weak sauce.

Guys like Tim and Luke certainly proved to me what a strong volunteer base the area has! Not only that, but it's quite telling when people would rather volunteer time on only slightly more than 1/2 a mile of trail 35 miles south of Kato than pay $8 for old skool, ski hill trail.

[werts]

do you know what would make kato worth wile? free admission because if im paying in ski hill terms for a lift ticket. when you purchase that ticket, it is generally assumed that there will be a respectable level of maintenance involved. so when i pay to ride, i expect the trails to be maintained. no maintenance = no admission price in my book.

[Trevize1138]

do you know what would make kato worth wile? free admission because if im paying in ski hill terms for a lift ticket. when you purchase that ticket, it is generally assumed that there will be a respectable level of maintenance involved. so when i pay to ride, i expect the trails to be maintained. no maintenance = no admission price in my book.

Plus, I believe their liability costs will be greatly reduced if they don't charge to ride. In general, the whole model of a ski hill charging for biking is out-dated; a relic of the pre-sustainable trail era. If they let us volunteers in there to build new, sustainable, low-maint trail and charged $0/ride it'd be a great destination for biking.

They also need to think of the residual financial benefits: more people riding there = more people liking Mt. Kato = more free advertising = more lift ticket revenue.

Actually, the more I think about it the more I'm wondering if I need to have a constructive convo with the owner of Mt. Kato. :D

[ryno lite]

What is the point for Mt. Kato to have mountain bike trails built and maintained by volunteers and that has no user fee? They are a business. It makes no sense to have mtn bike trails for free. That model would not work for a private ski hill. There is nothing in it for them. I'm sure the "free advertisment" would be minimal. Why open yourself up to liability for no money at all? Let's face it, there currently is no money in pay to ride ski hill trails. Until a business model can be developed that makes sense for mountain bike and ski hills, I don't see it happening. I know it's spendy, but I don't blame Kato for charging. They still aren't making enough to even make it worthwhile to have mountain biking. I'd just be happy they even allow mtn biking.

[Trevize1138]

Actually, the liability is cheaper if they don't charge a fee to use the trail:

http://www.imba.com/resources/trail_issues/pdfs/minnesota.pdf

Long story short: if you do not charge for recreational use of your private land you are 0% liable for damages. That's why I was arguing for very specifically not charging a fee because I'd guess the minimal revenue they get from trail fees would would be offset by the reduced liability insurance costs.

Hmm, although I don't know how that works with the insurance they no doubt need for the ski season.

[ryno lite]

Actually, the liability is cheaper if they don't charge a fee to use the trail:

http://www.imba.com/resources/trail_issues/pdfs/minnesota.pdf

Long story short: if you do not charge for recreational use of your private land you are 0% liable for damages. That's why I was arguing for very specifically not charging a fee because I'm sure the minimal revenue they get from trail fees would be offset by the reduced liability insurance costs.

Hmm, although I don't know how that works with the insurance they no doubt need for the ski season.

Yes, it is cheaper, but if they are making nothing, why even provide the service? It makes no sense. Just because their liability is much less if they charge something, they still need to pay for insurance to cover the off chance something would happen due to gross negligence of the facility. They would end up paying more money so that people could ride for free, plus put unneccessary wear and tear on their facility at no profit. It just makes no sense. The model just doesn't work right now. I think it could someday if someone was innovative enough to develop a for profit model that worked, but right now there just is not interest in it. Thankfully, many park systems are starting to see the benefits of have dedicated mtn bike trails to increase users. The future is access to various government run parks.

[Trevize1138]

Yes, it is cheaper, but if they are making nothing, why even provide the service? It makes no sense. Just because their liability is much less if they charge something, they still need to pay for insurance to cover the off chance something would happen due to gross negligence of the facility. They would end up paying more money so that people could ride for free, plus put unneccessary wear and tear on their facility at no profit. It just makes no sense. The model just doesn't work right now. I think it could someday if someone was innovative enough to develop a for profit model that worked, but right now there just is not interest in it. Thankfully, many park systems are starting to see the benefits of have dedicated mtn bike trails to increase users. The future is access to various government run parks.

OK, I think I see better what you're saying here. Basically, they'd be going through the effort to eliminate the fee and change their insurance for no measurable financial benefit. I may just be a wash: less trail fee revenue but less insurance cost.

I'm sure they'd be open to volunteers coming in to improve the trail for free, though. May be a bitter pill to swallow for us, then: spend our time and effort building a trail only to pay to ride it.

Hmm ... maybe they'd be open to trading trail passes for volunteer time? :cool:

[werts]

Hmm ... maybe they'd be open to trading trail passes for volunteer time? :cool:

i think this would be something worth checking into. Jeff Patraw is the cheapest [insert foul language here] you can think of. he would do anything to save a buck, so if it means free passes for a regular volunteer base to rake and keep it maintanied, it may well be worth it.

also this is quite possibly the greatest thread jack ever.

[danielle_erin]

Rode Mount Kato yesterday (my first time) and the trails were great!

Was a little worn out from riding 7mile so much, so Mt. Kato was a nice change of scenery! I had no idea how beautiful it was up there! Pretty lame it's so expensive though!

[Magic]

The same owners of Afton own Mt. Kato also. Yea we all bitch about paying to ride, but they are a buisness and they have to make money some how in the summer. The smart thing to do is approach them about helping out on the trails and help show them that there is interest in this being a riding area. You all have to remember that these people come from a skiing background and don't know much about the biking scene. If some of you feel that moved to get the trails going down there, then get up of your bums and go talk with them. It won't happen here with a bunch of crying and talk.

[Trevize1138]

The same owners of Afton own Mt. Kato also. Yea we all bitch about paying to ride, but they are a buisness and they have to make money some how in the summer. The smart thing to do is approach them about helping out on the trails and help show them that there is interest in this being a riding area. You all have to remember that these people come from a skiing background and don't know much about the biking scene. If some of you feel that moved to get the trails going down there, then get up of your bums and go talk with them. It won't happen here with a bunch of crying and talk.

Don't knock crying and talk until you've tried it ;).

If you're ever bored with 7 Mile and Mt Kato you can always hit up Tim Werts for his next trip down to Grandma's. :)

[danielle_erin]

Very dry. Almost slid right through some of the downhill corners on the dead horse. Finally tried the Luge! So much fun! Also, they mowed today so the tall grass isn't itching my legs on the front side of the hill anymore!

Does anyone else ride out here? I've been out there every day for about 2 weeks and have only seen one other person riding.

[NEO2126]

I did a couple slower laps today and it was dry as usual. Parts of pink poodle are over grown, but not many people ride that anyway.

[werts]

dry, dry, dry. and apparently they think sand makes for good trail maintenance? oh well... also id at least think that they could use my 8bucks to put in a porta pottie. wheres a guy suppose to take a crap there.

[danielle_erin]

Very dry and very sandy in places. Colors are starting to turn though, so it's beautiful. And there's a lot of wildlife out right now. Most nights, I have to stop 2 or 3 times to let the deer and turkey get off the trail.

Getting bored with the same old route, so if no one is there (which is almost always) I head up the compressor. It's nice to switch it up once in awhile.

[V]

Closed to two wheelers, I imagine.

[mapletoncarl]

Trails are open, and cleared of branches and leafs. One soft spot on top of the first climb. A few rough rough sections that need to be worked in with more traffic to get it to the supper mt kato hard pack.

[9GUY9]

Rode tonight, trails were in good condition.

There was a sign up saying "ride Wed the 28th at 2pm, and get on TV". I'm assuming the news will be doing a little story on the place.

[mapletoncarl]

Road tonight with the bromanian. Trail is getting worked in nicely. Mostly hard pack with a few sandy spots.

[mapletoncarl]

Road this afternoon. Resent rain has helped firm up the sandy spots. Resent wind dropped a tree on the bottom of dead horse.

[danielle_erin]

Trail is good after all the rain we had. Spent a lot of time cleaning branches off the trails tonight. The Dead Horse should be cleared of debris and we cleared the downed tree that was right before the jump at the end. Grass is getting long and itchy in some spots.

[werts]

dont maintain the trails for them. you pay a user fee. maintaining the trail is their obligation for charging a user fee.

[duggus]

Tim is that tree still down??? I gave it a try again a week ago :banghead:. I'm done with that place. Like you said no maintenance is ever done there, grass was all overgrown on the hills, a giant tree was done right around a corner where you could barely see it, it's NEVER groomed, and no port-a-poty or anything.

I actually wrote them a letter explaining how ridiculous it is to charge $8 (and have been raising it a dollar every year) for a trail that is just left alone to fall apart.

[danielle_erin]

Tim - I understand your point. I paid $117 for the season pass and would love for them to maintain the trail. They SHOULD maintain the trail if they are getting money, but they don't.... and I'm not going to waste my season pass by not riding out there. The tree needed to be cleared because someone (probably myself) was going to get hurt so we cleared it.

Maybe I'll write them a letter as well.

[Brendan]

The trail is in decent shape. It looks like it got pretty rutted from the rains last week but someone put some loose fill in place to fix her up. There is a bit of a stream running down part of the Mad Squirrel climb and the roots are pretty exposed on some of the downhills. Good old fashioned mountain biking!

[mapletoncarl]

Rode yesterday at 5pm. Trail was fast and tacky with a few soft spots. I had no mud build on my tires or down tube.
Mt kato dries quick. Even with rain on saturday it is unlikely to be muddy/greasy past the citizen race.

[mapletoncarl]

Rode today 95% fast & tacky. 5% mashed potatos with extra butter
Mad squirrel and luge were perfect

[AferVentus]

Rode yesterday. The maintenance seems like they actually did something!!! No more sand on the hairpin at the top of the hill after the climb, and the grass was actually mowed. However, some brush had fallen in Gets Tight. Dead horse was very rough, and quite a few sandy spots were on Ridge Run. Maybe the $80 I paid for a season pass is paying off...

[fnkmstr67]

Rode 3 plus loops today. First time riding at MT Kato. Pretty fun trails. Some leaves on the trail but mostly clear ands tacky. A couple small sandy sections. Had the place to myself with the exception of some deer.

[jaybird]

Rode by Mt. Kato on Red Jacket trail and could see trail conditions are very wet from recent rains.

[fnkmstr67]

Rode exactly 1 year after my last ride here. Trail is tacky where the leaf cover isnt. Lots of little sticks to get hung up in your deraileur. Be careful. I'm suprised there's not more evidence of people riding here. Fun stuff once the climbs are done.