Trail Damage

[kikinik]

I understand this is always a hot topic, but I thought Id open this up, and see what people thought. Just brainstorming.

I was just reading the post on conditions, and saw the ugly sight of muddy ruts. As we all know this is terrible.

What Im wondering, has do do with repairs, if the trail is easiest to damage when its wet, would this in turn mean it is easier to repair when wet? Im not a trail expert, but I was thinking it would be beneficial to repair bad spots and ruts in the trail while its still pliable. Maybe these types of steps are already being taken, if so, my foot is in my mouth. What is peoples perception of this?

Matt

[kikinik]

I have been enlightened.

I figured this was already in the master plan,

[gopherhockey]

Yup, it was a good question!

(for those who didn't see our PM exchange)

Over the last few years when we've gotten ruts like that at Leb, we have actually opened the trail maybe 1-2 days before ideal conditions. This lets some packing happen by normal traffic, saving us from having to do it all by hand. We then just had to take care of the nasty stuff.

The only problem with this is that riding on damp trails that still has frost coming out still compacts it even if you don't see visible ruts. This is what many people don't understand - they get out there and think the ruts won't be so bad.. but they don't see the entire tread sinking, which eventually has to be corrected. Those spots are the very ones that will collect water and keep us from riding sooner after a rain.

Its all connected. Someone rides too early in the spring because thy don't know any better (or think they DO know better) and they end up doing way more damage than one would realize. Its hard to keep people off a trail that is starting to dry on top but still has frost coming out, but its important for us all to try our best.

[AndrewMay]

I think its great that you shared that post.
Last year was my first real year of mtn biking, and I couldn't believe the extent to which we protect our trails early in the year. I had no idea that riding a trail before it was ready could do some much damage.
I think there are still plenty of people out there that don't know how much damage they are doing by riding a closed trail. Its always going to be a losing battle, but educating the masses is the only way to try and combat the destruction.
Thanks again.

[Trevize1138]

I think its great that you shared that post.
Last year was my first real year of mtn biking, and I couldn't believe the extent to which we protect our trails early in the year. I had no idea that riding a trail before it was ready could do some much damage.
I think there are still plenty of people out there that don't know how much damage they are doing by riding a closed trail. Its always going to be a losing battle, but educating the masses is the only way to try and combat the destruction.
Thanks again.

Thanks for this post, Andrew!

I think your story is one everyone should keep in mind when they feel hot under the collar about people riding in the mud. I can just imagine how differently you'd have felt about this issue had someone treated you like a common criminal for riding in the mud when you very honestly didn't know you were doing something bad.

Giving uneducated riders the benefit of the doubt is as good long-term as avoiding mud riding.

[gopherhockey]

Giving uneducated riders the benefit of the doubt is as good long-term as avoiding mud riding.

I agree.. but to a point. Before we pat all uneducated riders on the back too much, lets remember that most if not all spring riders (of our trails) cross super obvious trail closed signs/fences to get in and ride muddy trail. (I have no doubt Andrew was not included in this group)

I am all in on using a calm attitude when talking to the type of rider who doesn't know but will still follow obvious rules. I should be allowed to get a little hot about people who might not know but will still break the rules... as should all those who are patient and join us in following the rules. I only bring it up so we're not painted as the only bad guy here, or that we don't have a reason to get a little "hot" once in a while. (not to continue beating the same old dead horse)

Honestly the worst offenders are the ones that do actually know and ride in spite of all of us. I know for a fact it happens - those are the people that get me the most upset. These are the ones that think they are smart and have pulled something over on us, but in the end don't realize the new trail opportunities they cause themselves to lose out on.

I wish I would have kept track of what we haven't built at Leb due to poacher damage cleanup, or just because we felt less motivated to build something new.

[Trevize1138]

Maybe what I'm really arguing in favor of is a kind of triage. :)

The way I see it, people who ride muddy trails despite knowing better are a lost cause. At the very best, it will take so much time and effort to convince them otherwise as to not be worth the bother in the end.

That's why I'd rather focus on helping people who honestly know no better. Once they become educated they stop and can often become another fighter for the cause. It's more "bang for your buck": you not only take one trail poacher off the trails but potentially add a trail worker.

[bigwheel]

This weekend is going to be a tough one. I hope we have plenty of educators out there, because some riders don't seem to know how to read signs or recognize fences.

[crux]

Trail workers damage trails....

Sorry John had to say it. Down here in the south west we have had a few trail mishaps. From horses riding the trail to soon in the season at Otero and in the Foothills some "Trail fixes" actually caused more erosion in our sandy soil.

Regardless of location it is a good idea to check trail conditions before you ride. In the TC MORC does one heck of a job keeping the trails sustainable.

[Trevize1138]

This weekend is going to be a tough one. I hope we have plenty of educators out there, because some riders don't seem to know how to read signs or recognize fences.

I remember reading very clearly "Trail Closed" at Terrace Oaks 7 or 8 years ago and thinking how nice it was that they left just enough room under the fence for me and my bike. :)

[Crash]

I remember reading very clearly "Trail Closed" at Terrace Oaks 7 or 8 years ago and thinking how nice it was that they left just enough room under the fence for me and my bike. :)

Hey me too! (shhh). I remember riding anyway becaue I didn't understand why I shouldn't.

[gopherhockey]

This weekend is going to be a tough one. I hope we have plenty of educators out there, because some riders don't seem to know how to read signs or recognize fences.

I know at least one person that will be "monitoring trail conditions" at Leb this weekend.... :D :fool:

[AndrewMay]

In no way was I condoning riding a closed trail. There is no excuse for jumping a bright orange construction fence and ignoring a closed sign, just to get a few laps in. Educated or not. Its a selfish thing to do.
But I agree with Chris, focusing time and energy on uneducated riders might pay off more than getting mad at those who knowingly disobey the signs.

And Gopherhockey, you have EVERY right to get hot a little hot under the collar at those who knowingly ride closed trails! I don't think anyone would stop you from that.

[Trevize1138]

Hey me too! (shhh). I remember riding anyway becaue I didn't understand why I shouldn't.

Sitting around the campfire, holding hands and singing Kumbaya looks to have worked for Craig and I! :cool:

[bigwheel]

Sitting around the campfire, holding hands and singing Kumbaya looks to have worked for Craig and I! :cool:

Great. Maybe you guys can sing it to some other riders this weekend.

I have often have problems reading 55mph speed limit signs, but doubt that a friendly explanation is going to slow me down.

[Trevize1138]

Great. Maybe you guys can sing it to some other riders this weekend.

I have often have problems reading 55mph speed limit signs, but doubt that a friendly explanation is going to slow me down.

My in-laws bailed on us this weekend and Sunday's gonna be 70 and sunny, so I may actually be able to do this.

Gotta get the old guitar my Dad handed down to me fixed, though. It goes out of tune way too easily. I suppose it would help if I knew the chord progression for Kumbaya, too. Maybe I'll just go acapella?

[crux]

doubt that a friendly explanation is going to slow me down.

Poaching seems to be an ongoing issue. Is there a way to install a choke where riders would be forced to pass without ride a around? Thought being if you can build a choke then gate it off it might be a bit more discouraging.

We built some chokes here to control some of the ATV riders and it seems to work.

[AndrewMay]

What about barbed wire instead of orange fencing? Or maybe orange fencing topped with barbed wire? That would stop me for sure:nono:

[bigwheel]

My in-laws bailed on us this weekend and Sunday's gonna be 70 and sunny, so I may actually be able to do this.

Gotta get the old guitar my Dad handed down to me fixed, though. It goes out of tune way too easily. I suppose it would help if I knew the chord progression for Kumbaya, too. Maybe I'll just go acapella?

Excellent! Bring a banjo. Steve Martin proved that banjos play happy music.

If you and/or others are there, I do believe that it will help. Even if they don't learn, it will keep them from riding this weekend, knowing that someone is watching. Plus, maybe we'll get some members and potential volunteers.

Fortunately (or unfortunately) I'm going to be out of town trying to install 800 watts of solar panels for earth day weekend.

[Crash]

Great. Maybe you guys can sing it to some other riders this weekend.

I have often have problems reading 55mph speed limit signs, but doubt that a friendly explanation is going to slow me down.

Why so pessimistic?

Also, regarding the speed sign. You slow down because you do in fact understand the higher speeds are dangerous and you clearly understand the consequence of braking this law (speeding ticket/find, increased insurance rates etc.). I don't understand the analogy.:confused:

[gopherhockey]

Lets let this one die please. We don't need to be poking at each other yet again over yet another issue we should all be supportive about. This is what ends up making us look bad...

Nobody will completely agree on how to handle poachers. Lets stop the preaching from both sides and put some action behind our words.

[bike>>rider]

off topic, but someone with privileges should probably change the home page red message from saying "All trails closed" to "Most Trails Still Closed (Hillside & Salem open)"

[gopherhockey]

off topic, but someone with privileges should probably change the home page red message from saying "All trails closed" to "Most Trails Still Closed (Hillside & Salem open)"

I'll change it over the weekend. Its raining, so its just as well people stay off Salem this weekend anyway..

[kabbie_cache]

Its raining pretty good here in down town St Paul now.

[dave t]

Excellent! Bring a banjo. Steve Martin proved that banjos play happy music.

Ned Beatty would disagree.:sick:

Maybe a banjo is the answer. Just not in the parking lot but a bit deeper into the woods.:D

[Mike P]

My in-laws bailed on us this weekend and Sunday's gonna be 70 and sunny, so I may actually be able to do this.

Gotta get the old guitar my Dad handed down to me fixed, though. It goes out of tune way too easily. I suppose it would help if I knew the chord progression for Kumbaya, too. Maybe I'll just go acapella?

C F C
Kumbaya my lord, Kumbaya
F G
well Kumbaya my lord, Kumbaya
C F C
Kumbaya my lord, Kumbaya
F C G C
oh lord, Kumbaya

C F C
I am humble now lord, Kumbaya
F G
I am waiting lord, Kumbaya
C F C
I am searching lord, Kumbaya
F C G C
oh lord, Kumbaya

C F C
please Kumbaya my lord, I'm waiting, Kumbaya
F G
Kumbaya my lord, Kumbaya
C F C
Kumbaya my lord, Kumbaya
F C G C
oh lord, Kumbaya

C F C
I'm full of love now lord,
F G
Oh i feel full of love now lord, please Kumbaya
C F C
yes i feel full of love now lord, oh Kumbaya
F C G C
oh lord, Kumbaya

Rock On !!!...um??? or not
:D:metal::pullhair:

[Trevize1138]

Thanks, Mike!

I'll have to save it for some other time. In-laws un-bailed on us so we're workin' on the house and I won't be able to camp out at the trailheads afterall. :(