Derailleur Questions

[CrazyKid]

Hi, just wondering if I could put a 9 speed der. on a 8 speed bike. Recently I got a shimano xtr (rd-m952) which is a 9 speed and tried it but the shifts just aren't as good as somebody would expect. I'm wondering if it's the der. or maybe something else. I don't really care if it's the der. I can just put the old one back on.

[col200]

If you've got 9 speed shifters to go with it, you can do it. You'll need to get a 9 spd. cassette though. It won't work with an 8 spd. cassette.
...and 9 spd. chain.

I'd stick with the 8spd. :D

[CrazyKid]

Yeah I don't feel like putting the money into a new cassette + shifters, so I'll switch back to my original deore der. Thanks for answering my question, I just wanted to make sure it was the der. before I took it off. I was really hoping it would work with my 8 speed drive chain.:cryin:

[Shorty]

Wait... hopefully a trained mechanic will correct me if I'm wrong, but the new derailleur should work just fine with the 8 speed shifter and cassette.

The indexing and amount of cable pulled with each shift is determined by the shifter, not the derailleur... so there shouldn't be any issues, correct?

[patches]

correct. i have the exact same setup on my k.m. and it works great. just make sure alignment, limit screws, tension, etc. is in order and that combo should work just fine for you.
the shifter, cassette, and chain are the only things that need to match.

[bigwheel]

Wait... hopefully a trained mechanic will correct me if I'm wrong, but the new derailleur should work just fine with the 8 speed shifter and cassette.

The indexing and amount of cable pulled with each shift is determined by the shifter, not the derailleur... so there shouldn't be any issues, correct?

+1. The ratio of cable pull to derailleur movement is the same for all Shimano derailleurs. All you need to do is match the shifters to your cassette. In other words, 8 speed shifters for an 8 speed cassette. If your old shifters are Shimano, then any Shimano derailleur will work.

The late God Sheldon Brown had some nice articles about this. I'll let you do the searching. http://www.sheldonbrown.com/

[taylor p.]

Yeah I don't feel like putting the money into a new cassette + shifters, so I'll switch back to my original deore der. Thanks for answering my question, I just wanted to make sure it was the der. before I took it off. I was really hoping it would work with my 8 speed drive chain.:cryin:
it will work you just have to make sure you got the limit screws adjusted right, and cable tension

[col200]

Oops. Yeah, that makes sense:banghead: Sorry for leading you astray.

[CrazyKid]

Well this was my general thought plan when I bought the der. and from what has been posted it should have worked I think maybe there was something wrong with shifter adjustment.

I have an 8sp xtr cassette (cs-m900), and a pair of shimano alivio shifters(8sp). Also I have a shimano acera front der. and bontrager race cranks, but those shouldn't make any difference in rear shifting right? correct me if I'm wrong! Also I know when I tried the XTR der. I did have the High and Low stops adjuster right because when I shifted the der. would go into the highest and lowest gear.

The only thing i can think of, that could possibly by wrong is that I have a sram 8sp chain instead of a shimano 8sp chain to match the rest of the drive chain. I went on a few rides with this chain before trying to swap der. though, and it worked fine. I would have bought a shimano chain anyways but didn't want to mess with those one time pins Ive heard about. Even though this is kind of a far stretch does anybody know if this cross in brands would make a difference?



What would happen when I pushed on the shifter: I'd push it and it would go from 1 to 2 then I'd push it again and it would skip 3, I'd push it again and it would go from 2 to 3 and real quickly to 4 then normal shifting until I'd try to shift it to 6 and it would do the same thing, not shift to 6, then when i pushed the button again it would go to 6 briefly on its way to 7 then normal shifting up to 8.

Is there some crazy screw that needs to be turned, on or in the shifter besides the one to tighten the cable?:confused:

[Standard]

Sounds like the derailleur hanger may be bent. It can cause some pretty erratic shifting.

The Sram chain will be fine with everything else.. it's fully compatible.

[CrazyKid]

Well this was my general thought plan when I bought the der. and from what has been posted it should have worked I think maybe there was something wrong with shifter adjustment.

I have an 8sp xtr cassette (cs-m900), and a pair of shimano alivio shifters(8sp). Also I have a shimano acera front der. and bontrager race cranks, but those shouldn't make any difference in rear shifting right? correct me if I'm wrong! Also I know when I tried the XTR der. I did have the High and Low stops adjuster right because when I shifted the der. would go into the highest and lowest gear.

The only thing i can think of, that could possibly by wrong is that I have a sram 8sp chain instead of a shimano 8sp chain to match the rest of the drive chain. I went on a few rides with this chain before trying to swap der. though, and it worked fine. I would have bought a shimano chain anyways but didn't want to mess with those one time pins Ive heard about. Even though this is kind of a far stretch does anybody know if this cross in brands would make a difference?



What would happen when I pushed on the shifter: I'd push it and it would go from 1 to 2 then I'd push it again and it would skip 3, I'd push it again and it would go from 2 to 3 and real quickly to 4 then normal shifting until I'd try to shift it to 6 and it would do the same thing, not shift to 6, then when i pushed the button again it would go to 6 briefly on its way to 7 then normal shifting up to 8.

Is there some crazy screw that needs to be turned, on or in the shifter beside sthe one to tighten the cable?:confused:

sorry I must have posted this twice or something?

[MrBatzloff]

I run a similar set up. I had quite a few issues with my drivetrain last season, turning out to be mostly wear related problems.

Here's what I replaced:
r. der
chain
cassette
straightened hangar
cables


I'm pretty comfortable adjusting der's but kept having issues. The two things that got me back on (single)track were a hangar adjustment ($10 I think I freewheel) and new cables. The cables were the ticket. Buttery smooth now and all 24 of my speeds work as they should.

Now I just need to fix my hubs, fork, and bb...

[wokerhopper]

I have an idea, run 8spd with 8spd parts and 9spd with 9spd parts. The fact that they will work with one another, doesn't necessarily mean you should use them together.

[MrBatzloff]

A couple of years ago when trek was still selling bikes with 8 spds it came with a "mega 9" r. der. All of the manufacturers were doing this.

[Ish]

I have an idea, run 8spd with 8spd parts and 9spd with 9spd parts. The fact that they will work with one another, doesn't necessarily mean you should use them together.
Why shouldn't you?:confused:
I don't follow your logic. There should be zero issues with a 9 spd der with 8spd shifters and cassette.

[daviebee]

:popcorn:
adjust cable tensioner on der???

I've run XT der with Sram shifters, shimano/sram cassette and xt crank without issue. 9 speed "components" on 8 speed drive train w/o issue, other than needing to replace a middle ring on the crank.

[Ish]

I've run XT der with Sram shifters,

I am assuming a Sram ESP shifter since the rest of sram is 1:1 and shimano is 2:1 and thus not compatible.:)

I thought we were talking 8 spd vs 9 spd?;)

[wokerhopper]

You guys are all right, you can run 8 with 9spd. My only question is why not run 8 with 8 and 9 with 9. they are made for each other. You don't have to crank in limit screws with a 9spd der. and 9spd cassette because they were designed that way. Just an opinion.

[CrazyKid]

Ok so I suppose it could be just rough cables but they are 1/2 season old, the chain is about 3 rides old and the cassette is showing no wear. I never thought about the Der. Hanger though. What did you need to do to adjust the hanger?

I put the old Der. (a Deore) back on yesterday and what I don't get is why in the world would it shift through all the gears but the XTR wouldn't.:confused:

And I've done some research on the shimano web site and found a link to most of their older models. I looked on there for the Deore and found that it itself is actually a 9sp. der. It must have been like trek where the manufacturer puts a 9sp on a 8sp bike. Now there is no doubt in my mind, the 9sp XTR should work, its just getting it to work.:jumpy:

"adjust cable tensioner on der???" -this sounds like it might work to make the chain go to the next sprocket without having to push it again and having it skip. If you have info on adjusting the cable tensioner on the Der. post a reply, while I go out to the garage and see how smoothly the cable slides through the sleeve.:crazy:

[berrywise]

Ok so I suppose it could be just rough cables but they are 1/2 season old, the chain is about 3 rides old and the cassette is showing no wear. I never thought about the Der. Hanger though. What did you need to do to adjust the hanger?

I put the old Der. (a Deore) back on yesterday and what I don't get is why in the world would it shift through all the gears but the XTR wouldn't.:confused:

And I've done some research on the shimano web site and found a link to most of their older models. I looked on there for the Deore and found that it itself is actually a 9sp. der. It must have been like trek where the manufacturer puts a 9sp on a 8sp bike. Now there is no doubt in my mind, the 9sp XTR should work, its just getting it to work.:jumpy:

"adjust cable tensioner on der???" -this sounds like it might work to make the chain go to the next sprocket without having to push it again and having it skip. If you have info on adjusting the cable tensioner on the Der. post a reply, while I go out to the garage and see how smoothly the cable slides through the sleeve.:crazy:

The derailleur hanger is not something you really easily adjust. Look at the bike from the back and see if it looks straight. If it is an aluminum bike it most likely has a replaceable hanger. If it is bent check to see if it is tightened down properly. If it is and it is still bent you might need a replacement (take it to the shop).

If it is a steel bike you can (and don't do this if you don't feel comfortable) use a crescent wrench to lightly bend it back into place. Once again don't do anything you don't feel comfortable doing as you don't want to mess it up worse than it is.

For adjust the cable tension shift your bike into the smallest gear in back. Adjust all barrel adjusters (near the shifter and on the derailleur, though some newer derailleurs don't have a barrel adjuster on them anymore) so they are screwed in tight and then back them out a turn. Next undo the bolt holding the cable, pull it nice and tight and retighten the bolt.

Put the bike in the middle ring up front and the smallest gear in back. Start pedaling the bike and try to shift one gear up. If it doesn't shift up loosen the barrel adjuster on the derailleur (or shifter if that is all you have) a half turn at a time until it shifts up. Continue playing with this until you get a properly shifting bike.

Other things that can gum up your shifting is having dirty shift cales (replace them if need be). It is also helpful to replace your chain often so that it never begins to wear together with your cassette. If you ever put a lot of miles on a chain it is best to replace them together. If you replace your chain often enough you then won't have to replace the cassette as much.

The reason for that is the bearings wear out in the chain overtime causing the chain to "stretch". This stretching and dirt and grim causes wear on the cassette over time and your chain and cassette will begin to mesh together so to speak.

Okay its late someone wanna proof check all that for me? :D

p.s 9 speed Shimano on an 8 speed cassette. No problems with that in my book as well.

[MrBatzloff]

that looks about right, scott. good form.

[CrazyKid]

Yes, I have an aluminum bike with a detachable hanger, I took the hanger off to check if it got loose, and maybe some dirt got in there before I tightened it back up(because about once a week I go through with a allan wrench and just make sure things aren't working loose.) But it was clean and I put it back on, it also didn't have a bend. I loosened the Cable bolt on the Der. and Sure enough it was pretty corroded and was rough sliding through, I also tried the brake cables and they were bad too. I think soon I will go get new cables to put on. My shifters and the rear der. both have barrel adjusters.

Like I said I have a 3 ride old chain on there and a fairly new cassette, So I'll try the tension adjustment after I buy new cables.

Thanks all for the help and the tips!

[rideharder]

make sure you get housing and housing ends too.

[Ala Carte]

Make sure that you are clamping the cable on the rear der correctly. It will make a difference on the leverage pull of the rear der if it is mounted on the wrong side of the clamp bolt. Shimano's should be mounted on the bottom side. Dirty cables can cause alot of shifting problems and are easy to fix. Replace the housing when doing cables and make sure to use SIS housing for your shifting, and derailleur ferrules too. Brake ferrules and shift ferrules are different. Remember that you are running Alivio shifters, pretty entry level stuff. You will have better shifting with better shifters not derailleurs, the derailleurs are slaves to the shifters, they only do what the shifter tells it to. You could always bring it into a shop, its kinda hard sometimes to diagnose problems over an internet forum.

[Ala Carte]

You guys are all right, you can run 8 with 9spd. My only question is why not run 8 with 8 and 9 with 9. they are made for each other. You don't have to crank in limit screws with a 9spd der. and 9spd cassette because they were designed that way. Just an opinion.

You don't have to turn the limits any further in on either setup. A 9 spd cassette from high to low cog is the exact same as on an 8 spd, its the spaces in between the cogs that are smaller.

[daviebee]

I am assuming a Sram ESP shifter since the rest of sram is 1:1 and shimano is 2:1 and thus not compatible.:)

I thought we were talking 8 spd vs 9 spd?;)

SRAM 9.0 Actually;) Like I said, no problems other than a broken tooth on the mid ring during Greenman mtb race a few years ago:banghead:

Scott, +1 for form

[CrazyKid]

Giant puts the cables underneath the top tube, which would be alright for road, but when riding single track , when all the dirt is flying it gets on the cables. then when you shift the cable goes in and out of the housing, thus dragging the dirt on the cables in and out, thus making your shifting really crappy. So instead of getting all new cables I kept the old ones but used the air compressor to blow out any dirt in the housing, Then wiped the cables off with a clean rag, and finished with spraying some lube down the housing until it came out the other end. To solve the Cable routing problem I went to the shop and got some real small plastic tubing that fits over the cables, on the parts of the bike where there is no housing. This way the dirt sticks to the tubing instead of the cable. When reassembled all the cables on the bike were "buttery smooth," as should be. Once the cables were good I did the cable tension adjustment and had to turn the barrel adjuster on the der. 1/2 turn to get it to work, when done it shifted beautifully into all 24 gears.

I'll be riding those trails this summer thanks to the suggestions made by all you nice people at MORC!

[soupboy]

I have 9 spd 26er nipples - will these work on my fixed gear 29er?

[Ish]

I have 9 spd 26er nipples - will these work on my fixed gear 29er?

Only if you don't coast.