Poaching-Spring will soon have sprung

[Slimpee]

I figured i'd start a new thread about trail poaching and potential "solutions"

What do people think would be some good strategies for cutting down on trail poachers this season during the spring thaw?

My rant: trail poaching can certainly get my blood boiling. What's been just as discouraging in recent years, however, is the hateful talk I've seen on these forums aimed at trail poachers. I know it's often in jest when people talk about putting up trip wires and posting pictures of Claymores but it represents a very counter-productive attitude toward the problem.

I'll say the same thing I always say on this subject: you attract more flies with honey than vinegar. I'm sure some trail poachers really are total jerks who know better and won't listen. I'm also sure some honestly don't know better and will stop if they were educated.

If you treat all trail poachers as though they're jerks, then none will change. The true jerks won't change no matter what but the honest, innocently ignorant riders will develop their first impression of MORC as "those a-holes who yell at me when I ride."

Think about it: who here has never ridden their bike in the mud? When you rode your bike in the mud, did you think to yourself "This is fun 'cause I know it'll piss people off"? Or, did you just think it was fun for its own sake? Then, once you learned about the work involved in trails/joined MORC or whatever else you stopped riding in the mud, right?

I know so many people (myself included) who used to ride in the mud and immediately stopped when they became educated. I see no reason to believe the majority of those still riding in the mud are any different.

One idea I have: get volunteers to man tents at local trails on nice days to educate riders.

[Trevize1138]

I knew Bob would chime in with this POV. :)

My one question for this attitude/approach is: how's it been working for us?

I go back to my original point of treating everyone with the benefit of the doubt. I stand by this as the method that will get the results we most desire. I'm sure it may "feel" good to yell at people, call 'em jerks and issue tickets but I think all that does is further the impression that MORC is "those jerks that yell at me when I ride."

I'll gladly swallow my pride and take the chance that I'm letting the occasional jerk get away with something if the result is less poaching because I've educated rather than enraged others.

I did a few searches for combinations of the words "trip wire(s)" and came up empty in the context of poaching trails. Not to say that it hasn't been mentioned, but I don't remember it happening. Certainly not the people in charge.

There is a difference between riding muddy trails due to ignorance, and tearing down orange fences and blatantly going around (or tearing down) prominently displayed trail closed signs, that include explanations.

I will give the benefit of the doubt to ignorant people who ride after a rainfall when the trail appears to be open. But I have no patience for the selfish jerks who know perfectly well what they are doing, but think that they are too special to adhere to the decisions of the people that are responsible for maintaining the trails.

We have given the blessing to Dakota county to ticket people that are clearly poaching closed trails. The county can use the revenue. We are also considering placing some hidden cameras out there and posting a "hall of shame". We'll see...

[gopherhockey]

I would really support the idea of volunteers at the trails on those warm tempting days when trails are closed. What better time to educate riders AND support our trails than those early weeks (weekends especially) in April.

If there are volunteers willing to do shifts I think something should really be arranged. I think this does a lot of things, among them:

1. Supports the trail, helps keep poachers off.
2. With the right people, gives a positive approach to a horrible problem.
3. Supports our trail volunteers - it shows those that have to get out there and maintain the trail that the rest of us are there to support them too.
4. Educates, of course... maybe those people won't show up the next year and will pass along what they know to others.
5. Gets volunteers back together, drumming up excitement for the new season...

The first two weekends in April should be scheduled, especially at our hot poaching spots like Theo and Leb (and maybe others).

[batjerk]

I don't think I'd bet the farm that tickets are going to help the problem of poaching very much. It may be beneficial to the county in the form of some revenue, but I cannot foresee it being very much. That, and how does giving a ticket educate anyone on why a given behavior is undesirable? I don't see it as having any value in that regard at all. Rather it only educates that avoiding being caught is paramount and the damage done remains.

It is better to teach correct principles and allow the people to govern themselves. The question then becomes: how to get the word out? Perhaps having a volunteer or two sitting in a gazebo at the trail entrances isn't a bad plan. Proselyting has worked well for many groups for a very long time.

Clearly, signs attached to fences that say "trail closed in wet conditions" or what have you isn't the most effective, as they offer little to no information as to why the trail is closed.

Perhaps a NEWS feature about spring bicycling wherein is mentioned that riding wet trails damages them and costs volunteers countless hours in repairing existing trails as opposed to building new ones, which we'd all rather have/do.

[Trevize1138]

Perhaps a NEWS feature about spring bicycling wherein is mentioned that riding wet trails damages them and costs volunteers countless hours in repairing existing trails as opposed to building new ones, which we'd all rather have/do.

I may try to get on that again, write up a press release on behalf of MORC and submit it to local news stations and publications (after running it by the board and getting approval, of course). I've had success with getting us local media coverage with that in the past but so far not yet with a story focusing on not riding in the mud.

I'd also like to point out that when I rode Terrace Oaks before it openened on that one April 30 day that I knew it was closed. Why? There was a big sign at the trailhead saying so and I had to crawl under the fence to ride there. :)

What changed my mind about that behavior? John L with a big, friendly smile standing to the side of the freshly-cut trail at Leb years and years ago saying to my buddy and me, "You're welcome to join us every Thursday for trail work!"

[gopherhockey]

What changed my mind about that behavior? John L with a big, friendly smile standing to the side of the freshly-cut trail at Leb years and years ago saying to my buddy and me, "You're welcome to join us every Thursday for trail work!"

Ha! I almost remember the days when I could smile about this stuff... ;)

[Trevize1138]

I'll check with my daughter to see if she wants to help out one of those weekends. :cool:

What's friendlier than a guy with a 6-month-old in a Baby Bjorn?

I would really support the idea of volunteers at the trails on those warm tempting days when trails are closed. What better time to educate riders AND support our trails than those early weeks (weekends especially) in April.

If there are volunteers willing to do shifts I think something should really be arranged. I think this does a lot of things, among them:

1. Supports the trail, helps keep poachers off.
2. With the right people, gives a positive approach to a horrible problem.
3. Supports our trail volunteers - it shows those that have to get out there and maintain the trail that the rest of us are there to support them too.
4. Educates, of course... maybe those people won't show up the next year and will pass along what they know to others.
5. Gets volunteers back together, drumming up excitement for the new season...

The first two weekends in April should be scheduled, especially at our hot poaching spots like Theo and Leb (and maybe others).

[Slimpee]

I would really support the idea of volunteers at the trails on those warm tempting days when trails are closed. What better time to educate riders AND support our trails than those early weeks (weekends especially) in April.

If there are volunteers willing to do shifts I think something should really be arranged. I think this does a lot of things, among them:

1. Supports the trail, helps keep poachers off.
2. With the right people, gives a positive approach to a horrible problem.
3. Supports our trail volunteers - it shows those that have to get out there and maintain the trail that the rest of us are there to support them too.
4. Educates, of course... maybe those people won't show up the next year and will pass along what they know to others.
5. Gets volunteers back together, drumming up excitement for the new season...

The first two weekends in April should be scheduled, especially at our hot poaching spots like Theo and Leb (and maybe others).

I'll hang out at Theo. As I said in the other thread I was one of those people that would probably ride in the mud w/out knowing how much damage is done and how hard trail volunteers work. Besides, if we can get two people to sit there on a nice day when the trail is dry enough to ride it could be "ride a lap, educate riders, ride a lap, educate riders". Maybe we'd get a few new MORCers as well...

[Slimpee]

I may try to get on that again, write up a press release on behalf of MORC and submit it to local news stations and publications (after running it by the board and getting approval, of course). I've had success with getting us local media coverage with that in the past but so far not yet with a story focusing on not riding in the mud.

I'd also like to point out that when I rode Terrace Oaks before it openened on that one April 30 day that I knew it was closed. Why? There was a big sign at the trailhead saying so and I had to crawl under the fence to ride there. :)

What changed my mind about that behavior? John L with a big, friendly smile standing to the side of the freshly-cut trail at Leb years and years ago saying to my buddy and me, "You're welcome to join us every Thursday for trail work!"

I also think this is a good idea. If you look at mtn. biking in the media it all too often features mud splashing around. Remember the Lifetime commercial? Not only was that guy riding in the mud but he wasn't wearing a helmet (libertarian debate notwithstanding)! Perhaps if a press release is drafted it should include the number of (wo)man hours volunteered for trail maintenance and how much work has to be done to fix damaged trails.

[kabbie_cache]

I may try to get on that again, write up a press release on behalf of MORC and submit it to local news stations and publications (after running it by the board and getting approval, of course). I've had success with getting us local media coverage with that in the past but so far not yet with a story focusing on not riding in the mud."

This sounds like a great idea. I would also like to see this passed along to the radio news stations.

I would think a flyer/poster at the LBS wouldnt be a bad idea either.


I would really support the idea of volunteers at the trails on those warm tempting days when trails are closed. What better time to educate riders AND support our trails than those early weeks (weekends especially) in April.

If there are volunteers willing to do shifts I think something should really be arranged


Would it be ok to put flyer/poster on cars in the lots be an ok thing ?

[Bshannon]

While I don't know how much the fines are or, who actually writes them is it possible to include a brief bullet point card on the benefit of not riding when the trails are wet. This may be a better education than someone just writing tickets and not caring why he/she is doing it. Though I do understand rec'ing a ticket and then an education at the same time is somewhat off putting.

Also, is it possible that those caught have the option of paying a fine or doing some hours of trail work? Sort of community service.

[Trevize1138]

While I don't know how much the fines are or, who actually writes them is it possible to include a brief bullet point card on the benefit of not riding when the trails are wet. This may be a better education than someone just writing tickets and not caring why he/she is doing it. Though I do understand rec'ing a ticket and then an education at the same time is somewhat off putting.

Also, is it possible that those caught have the option of paying a fine or doing some hours of trail work? Sort of community service.

Like I said, I still remember John L's friendly smile getting me excited about volunteering to build and maintain trails ... then become a MOCA board member ... help get media coverage ...

Had my first encounter with MORC been Bob writing me out a ticket ... hmm, maybe a trail boycott followed up by a mean "MORC Sux!" blog?

The power of positivity.

In fact, I seem to remember after meeting John L for the first time we went on to ride not-yet-open trail and then tramp through the woods to get back to the old trail. Nobody yelled at us! Maybe they were talking behind our backs ("they probably drive old VWs, the losers!" etc ...) but we didn't know any better. :)

[Lezgo Cycling]

I also think this is a good idea. If you look at mtn. biking in the media it all too often features mud splashing around. Remember the Lifetime commercial? Not only was that guy riding in the mud but he wasn't wearing a helmet (libertarian debate notwithstanding)! Perhaps if a press release is drafted it should include the number of (wo)man hours volunteered for trail maintenance and how much work has to be done to fix damaged trails.


Many people who dont know better or at all see those and believe them...they think we are all out the practicing for our Mtn Dew commercials :nono: so ill stand out there with ya Justin :cool: we'll see if we cant point some of the poachers in the right direction..

[Bshannon]

Like I said, I still remember John L's friendly smile getting me excited about volunteering to build and maintain trails ... then become a MOCA board member ... help get media coverage ...

Had my first encounter with MORC been Bob writing me out a ticket ... hmm, maybe a trail boycott followed up by a mean "MORC Sux!" blog?

The power of positivity.

In fact, I seem to remember after meeting John L for the first time we went on to ride not-yet-open trail and then tramp through the woods to get back to the old trail. Nobody yelled at us! Maybe they were talking behind our backs ("they probably drive old VWs, the losers!" etc ...) but we didn't know any better. :)

I agree, when I get a ticket for doing something wrong (i.e. speeding) I know i was wrong and it still gets me pissed off. But I think I read on a different thread that ticket issuance was encourage. If this is the case MORC will have to deal with those situations as well.

[bigwheel]

Had my first encounter with MORC been Bob writing me out a ticket ... hmm, maybe a trail boycott followed up by a mean "MORC Sux!" blog?

If only I had the ability to write tickets. :fool: I personally believe that they will help. Sure, it will piss off people. But it will get their attention and get them asking questions, so that we can politely give them the answers.

It sounds like we have a list of people to hang out at the parking lot to greet people. I look forward to seeing the schedule. We also might want to consider moving the table to somewhere on the trail, rather than the (possibly closed) parking lot. Many of the poachers come in from the Galaxy entrance or the Covington lot and avoid the main entrance. Also, be nice to those that say "**** you" and ride right by you onto the trail.

Sorry. My apologies for being cynical before even seeing this year's ruts. I do believe that a greeting table will help.

I'd also like to point out that when I rode Terrace Oaks before it openened on that one April 30 day that I knew it was closed. Why? There was a big sign at the trailhead saying so and I had to crawl under the fence to ride there. :)

What changed my mind about that behavior? John L with a big, friendly smile

Forgive my doubts, but I don't think it was John. I think that you grew up and changed your behavior once you started putting substantial labor into the Theo project.

[Trevize1138]

If only I had the ability to write tickets. :fool: I personally believe that they will help. Sure, it will piss off people.

Pissing people off will help MORC? Call me crazy, but I'd rather MORC didn't piss people off. I think that would hurt our image. :)

It sounds like we have a list of people to hang out at the parking lot to greet people. I look forward to seeing the schedule. We also might want to consider moving the table to somewhere on the trail, rather than the (possibly closed) parking lot. Many of the poachers come in from the Galaxy entrance or the Covington lot and avoid the main entrance. Also, be nice to those that say "**** you" and ride right by you onto the trail.

Good point: poachers don't all use the main entrance. Maybe we could have teams of two and each would take turns manning the tent at the entrance while the other took a stroll around the park on the walking trails that intersect the trail to patrol for poachers using other entrances? I know the parking lot's closed but I wonder if the majority of poachers still use the main trail entrance even though they park elsewhere?

Sorry. My apologies for being cynical before even seeing this year's ruts. I do believe that a greeting table will help.

It's just the difference between our personalities, Bob. :) I do totally understand the frustration. Nobody wants to be played a fool but I think if you step back and look at the situation logically the desired result of fewer poachers (let's be realistic, we'll always have some poachers) is best achieved by the old "grin and bear it" approach. Getting ticked off an yelling at people is my first instinct, too, but my approach changes when I cool off and think rationally about it.

Forgive my doubts, but I don't think it was John. I think that you grew up and changed your behavior once you started putting substantial labor into the Theo project.

Interesting that your recollection of my life's events differs from my own. :) Let's say for the sake of argument it wasn't John that "changed me." It was still John who gave me my first impression of MORC as "those friendly guys who built that cool tail for us ... for free!" That encouraged me to get active and involved and did tons more good for the goals of the organization than a ticket and a talking to would have.

[lostboy]

I think the problem with tickets is a wet trail can be a matter of opinion. If you have to go around a gate and get on the trail, obviously you know you are breaking the rules. However if the trail sign just says don't ride when it's wet, can you define wet? Is a few wet spots wet or does the whole trail have to be wet? Most of us know if a trail is wet and know to check MORC but the poachers may not have a clue what wet really means.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p

To bad the trail keepers and MORC couldn't put up big gates on all the trails and block them off when needed. At least it would be 100% clear the trail is closed.
<O:p</O:p

On a side note concerning signs: I am not sure how current signs are purchased for trails or who purchases them and puts them up MORC or the cities or if new ones are even needed ….but I have a really good connection at a sign company (out of Indiana) and could get some quotes for signs if they are needed. Maybe current signs are donated so this wouldn’t be needed but I thought I would offer so PM me if MORC is interested.<O:p></O:p>

[SPR]

If you want to educate people then don't forget to target those tire manufactures who market their mud shredding tires and the magazines that run their ads along the with the mud riding trail pics.:D

[lostboy]

If you want to educate people then don't forget to target those tire manufactures who market their mud shredding tires and the magazines that run their ads along the with the mud riding trail pics.:D

Agreed every ad I see of a MTB'r is in the mud or they are covered in mud or mud is flying off the back tire.

[Ish]

As much as it pains me to say this, I have to agree with Chris on trying to take a positive approach. I think there has been times where we have tried to use the "stick" approach instead of the "carrot" and it comes off as condescending, arrogant and elitist to a lot of folks. Even if we are right and they are wrong, what matters most is perception. If we are perceived the wrong way, bad things will happen.

I don't have the answers. I remember last fall a friend of mine was telling me about his friends riding Leb one weekend. I remember that weekend that Leb was closed and the fences were up. He said, ya but they found a way to ride around them. :banghead: Now, I had meet this guys a few months earlier and they were not bad people - a lot like me actually. I just think they didn't get it and didn't understand why it was closed. They thought their judgment was better than those that closed the trails. How can we help them understand?

On a related note, I think there have been a few times when trails were closed when the conditions were really border line and they maybe could have stayed open. People got the sense that they were being closed to teach people a lesson. The reaction was "your not going to teach me". Again, the closings may very well have been legitimate, but it was the way it was done and the perception.

Thanks for reading.

[Danimal]

Mud is good. Just don't get the collection from one of our trails. No one said you can't find other places to ride if you want to get a little dirty. Just ride on a trail that isn't maintained by others on a daily basis. Fire roads for example.

I will say that growing up in PA we rode all trails all the time. Rain or shine. I never have seen so many concerned people (about riding in the rain on trails) than when I started living in MN. But now that I see how much work goes into these trails I can see the reason for concern.

if ya want to get muddy, ride a non-maintained trail. They are out there, you just have to do a little research.

[batjerk]

You are quite right. It's always about perception. Signs and gates are perceived as authoritarian, generally, and there will be backlash. Probably, the best approach is the one that is apparently going to be tried: have volunteers out to proselyte. (People attending tents to try to convince poachers not to.)

Of course, there are some who will view this as "condescending and elitist". You cannot please everyone, and some people are bent on riding in the mud for some (probably) masochistic reason.

I think, for effect of sheer volume and getting to people before getting to the trail, that a NEWS story about the local trails and not riding in the mud, would be a good attempt at public education.

As the temps warm and people dust off bikes, letting them know that dirt trails should be avoided until they are dry before the actually arrive at the trail, would be good. While they're at it, they could try to educate the public on commuters as well. We will be seeing more bikes out on and off road as the weather warms and gas prices continue to escalate, might as well broadcast traffic laws regarding bikes. Imagine that, educated cyclists and motorists! It might actually make for more pleasant commutes for all involved. (I can dream, can't I?)

[Trevize1138]

As much as it pains me to say this, I have to agree with Chris ...

*Thunder cracks!*

Eeeeexcellent. :D

Someone here also mentioned the idea of getting trail poachers to come out and do trail work to fix the ruts they made. I know of several MORC members doing this on their own already, usually after riding the trail as a means of inspecting it and later posting up about conditions. You sometimes only know a trail is too muddy/wet to ride after it's too late and you've done damage.

Issuing tickets assumes everyone who rides the trail when it's too wet is doing so in spite of the rules. We'd look like big time hypocrites if we ticket some but not others for the same activity. Worse yet, someone would be very accurate in accusing us of waiving tickets and fines if you're "part of the clique."

[bigwheel]

Okay, let me summarize (possibly incorrectly) so that I don't have to quote everything.

Chris may have been making up the story about John hanging out at Terrace Oaks, inviting Chris to work on trails on Thursday. John almost never goes to Terrace, and trail work for both places is on Tuesdays. Plus, trail work doesn't start until after trails are open. But John is a nice guy and smiles a lot, so that makes the story okay.

Craig met a guy that says he found a way to get around the *HUGE* fence and closed signs last spring, so that he can poach the wet trails. But Craig had talked to the guy a few months earlier, and he seemed like a nice guy. So, it's okay.

Others say that it's a judgment call as to whether or not the trail is wet. Just because there is a huge orange fence that nearly surrounds the parking lot, and lots of trail closed signs, and fences in a bunch of other places along the trail, is no reason to be angry at the poachers. They just don't understand that they are damaging the trail.

All we need to do is have a friendly conversation, then hold hands and sing Kum By Ya, and the problem will be solved. In other words, there is no need for the fences and signs, because once people know that they are damaging the trail, they will stay away. But until we've had our heart-to-heart talk, it is perfectly understandable behavior.

A bunch of analogies come to mind, but I'll skip them on this post. But I want you guys on my jury when I get caught doing something against the law.

Meanwhile, if the "table of happiness" doesn't work, I'll appreciate having your help when we are out pre-season with McLeods de-berming. Especially, those times when you stop people on the trail and explain why it is closed, and ask them to head directly out. They say "I didn't know it was closed", even though they are the ones that cut holes in the fences to get through. But then, you find the same people 20 minutes later on another part of the trail.

I'd better go eat lunch. The trail isn't even closed yet, and I'm already starting to get worked up about it.

[Trevize1138]

OChris may have been making up the story about John hanging out at Terrace Oaks, inviting Chris to work on trails on Thursday. John almost never goes to Terrace, and trail work for both places is on Tuesdays. Plus, trail work doesn't start until after trails are open. But John is a nice guy and smiles a lot, so that makes the story okay.

I poached Terrace but ran into John at Leb is what I said. :)

[batjerk]

Forget tickets, just shoot the bastards and be done with it. They'll learn real quick that way. Plus, the dedicated sniper gets all the bikes. Great way to bolster the collection.:D

[kabbie_cache]

IMO I think the TV, radio, LBS and people at the closed trails, seems to be the best idea. Maybe even handing out flyers or MORC cards while were at it.

Maybe some of you out there with good video skills could put together your own production about how trails are damaged by riding when wet. Then you could pass that along to TV stations and LBS.

I could for sure help out at BC and maybe Salem if needed.

[dave t]

Forget tickets, just shoot the bastards and be done with it. They'll learn real quick that way. Plus, the dedicated sniper gets all the bikes. Great way to bolster the collection.:D

Well Chris, you tried but no poaching thread goes far without gun talk.

I guess I fall somewhere in the middle.

It pisses me off that they just go right passed the fences and I would love to see them getting tickets for it and I think it would be the county writing the tickets so MORC would not get the bad rep. On the other hand, I also don't think it would do more than make them more careful about getting caught.

As for what we (trailworkers) do when we catch them, I wouldn't go so far as a big group hug in the woods, but I do agree that a lighter touch from the MORC side would do more to further the cause. Maybe less "Hey Jacka$$, get off the trails! Can't you see they're wet?" but more "Come on guys! We work too hard on these trails as it is. Look at all these ruts we have to fix when people ride in the mud. If we didn't have to fix these, we could be cutting new trail."

It wasn't quite the same situation, but the same approach that Jan Lee took when he busted me on some of the unopened, rough-cut XX trail.

[berrywise]

We need a display case at the trailhead with a plaster paris mold of what riding muddy trails does and how many man hours it takes to fix the trails after its been done :D

[batjerk]

Well Chris, you tried but no poaching thread goes far without gun talk.
Just doing my best to prove Godwin's Law (and any of its variations) true!:p

[Slimpee]

We need a display case at the trailhead with a plaster paris mold of what riding muddy trails does and how many man hours it takes to fix the trails after its been done :D

Can it have lots of flashing lights and some catchy music?

OR

We could do an after-school special about the dangers of riding on muddy trials. "Johnny the Trail Poacher" or something like that. That'll scare 'em straight and we have to get 'em while they're young...

[gopherhockey]

The more I think about it the whole idea of ticketing is a little off here... really MORC would never ever be the ones to ticket anyone. I doubt a land manger would approve of this regardless. Its not even the bike patrol's responsibility to do this type of thing.

What we could use is the land managers stepping up and doing the ticketing on behalf of themselves. This doesn't (shouldn't!) hurt MORC in any way but still sends a message that its not exactly an open free-for-all for those knowingly passing a trail closed sign.

Those orange fences we put up aren't just MORC fences, they are land manager approved fences. Its not just a MORC thing - people on a trail that is closed is breaking park rules and they are subject to fines and tickets regardless of what we think.

I'm still on board for a MORC be the good cop approach, but I'm also on board for the land manager be the bad cop approach as well. I think we got it right with Murphy as they know the real value of the trail and they are actively watching things out there. We need more of that elsewhere.

[gtbikes]

We need a display case at the trailhead with a plaster paris mold of what riding muddy trails does and how many man hours it takes to fix the trails after its been done :D

Ohh that's a good idea!

[Magic]

Good, now can we all call this a done deal. I don't want to see my buddy Bob have a heart problem this early in the season. The white stuff is still on the ground and we all need to relax on this.

[Ish]

What we could use is the land managers stepping up and doing the ticketing on behalf of themselves. This doesn't (shouldn't!) hurt MORC in any way but still sends a message that its not exactly an open free-for-all for those knowingly passing a trail closed sign.

Those orange fences we put up aren't just MORC fences, they are land manager approved fences. Its not just a MORC thing - people on a trail that is closed is breaking park rules and they are subject to fines and tickets regardless of what we think.

As long as it is not perceived [there's that word again] that MORC is the one driving the land manager to ticket. Otherwise they will just see it as MORC having it done.

Bob - I think you misquoted quite a few things out of context, but hopefully you at least listen and consider these other view points.

For one, I appreciate all the hard work you, the other board members and all the trail work volunteers do. Hopefully providing divergent views does not take away from that.

[bigwheel]

Bob - I think you misquoted quite a few things out of context, but hopefully you at least listen and consider these other view points.

Thanks, Craig. I did take the liberty to go from (tainted) memory, and not verify my statements.

I do think that having people hanging out at the trails to talk to people will help. I'm just skeptical that it will help enough, and that we'll get enough people to volunteer to hang out at a closed trail, where there likely will be very little action.

For giggles, I did a search for the word "poach" and "poacher". There is a lot of hits this time of year. Normally, it starts off nice "we need to educate", but as the closed season progresses, it ends with pretty nasty frustration showing through by most people. Remember, that by the end of the closed season, we are already starting to work on some of the bad areas, so that frustration is showing through when the just-fixed areas get re-trashed.

Last year was an exception because we had a ton of snow in March. So, we went directly from "too much snow to ride" to "trail closed" conditions. Also, Dakota County locked the gates and closed the entire park, which helped a lot.

Here's an example thread from last year. It's interesting to read from the beginning.

http://www.morcmtb.org/forums/showthread.php?t=20646

[gopherhockey]

As long as it is not perceived [there's that word again] that MORC is the one driving the land manager to ticket. Otherwise they will just see it as MORC having it done.

Yea.. perception is tough to control. I think there are haters that will hate and poachers that will poach regardless of our tactics (sorry, sometimes I don't have as much faith due to what I've seen over the past many years) but it doesn't mean we should stop trying or stop caring.

More official looking signs might help... maybe, just maybe someone might be more willing to stay off if they knew they were actually trespassing illegally vs. just going against some club's wishes...

Bob has a good point with the gate too... a closed gate will keep more of the people out that seem to not see the 500' orange fence when they drive in. It appears way more official as well.... to have to park outside the lot and ride in has to feel just one step more deviant to people.

[kikinik]

As a brainstorming sidenote, is it possible to do any extra trailwork directly following heavy rain or melting?

Possibly helping things dry or "cure" (soaking up standing water, expelling it with a leaf blower, adding some dry soil). I understand that its just not possible to completely dry out, but it might help with a shorter wet times.

Of course paired with some solid communication. Ive met a few people on the trails that were not aware people volunteered to keep them up.

[Danimal]

Possibly helping things dry or "cure" (soaking up standing water, expelling it with a leaf blower, adding some dry soil). I understand that its just not possible to completely dry out, but it might help with a shorter wet times.

Great idea! I vote we all strap sponges onto our shoes and walk the trail :) :) :)
We could also get those nasty eye pokers out of the way too.

Seriously, not a bad idea, I would volunteer my time if there was something we could do to assist the drying time out there at Leb prior to the season starting.

[crux]

a closed gate will keep more of the people out that seem to not see the 500' orange fence when they drive in. It appears way more official as well.... to have to park outside the lot and ride in has to feel just one step more deviant to people.

Know this was discussed some time ago. What ever happened to the idea of replacing the orange plastic fence with something a bit more rugged? Know that there would be some added expense and trailwork to be done keeping people from doing the standard ride around. Really think this would reduce traffic during unfavorable riding conditions.

Just think each solid gate could have a sign attached

"Trail Closed"

[anythingxc]

Im new to mn and im not used to seeing trails closed for the thaw. and I was wondering when the trails normaly would be closed and opened again. how long should i stay off:confused:

[ryno lite]

Im new to mn and im not used to seeing trails closed for the thaw. and I was wondering when the trails normaly would be closed and opened again. how long should i stay off:confused:

Just watch this website for info on closing and opening info. Also, places like Leb (obvious orange fences) and Murphy (front gate closed) are pretty obviously closed. If there is a closed gate or the trail entrance is fenced off in some sort of way you have to stay out. Don't worry, when it's dry we remove and open them right away because we all want to ride as much as the next person.

Welcome to MN and we look forward to seeing you on the trails!

[ryno lite]

I agree that having people at the trails being positive and educating people about wet trails is a great idea and we should do it. I think we can turn this potential negative into a positive for MORC!

No matter what anyone says though, I agree with Bob on many things. Anyone who cuts fences or bypasses closed gates know they are doing wrong. There is no educating these people. They are all selfish bastards and they know they are doing wrong.

As some have said earlier, parks like 3 Rivers realize the value of their trails and they will not let people break the rules and damage their resources. Parks like Murphy and future Three Rivers trails are starting to invest their own money into building and maintaining their trails. They will patrol and fine to protect their investment and I don't blame them. I think this is a good thing. This is a park decision and not a MORC decision. I applaud the parks that try to protect their trails. Beware Murphy trail poachers, you very well could be caught and fined for riding closed trails! I hope they catch you!

[gopherhockey]

It would also be nice if people weren't so quick to look for the faults in an organization such as ours. Oh, I need to stay off the trail.. MORC is bad. Why default to that kind of thinking... especially when the sign clearly explains WHY things are closed (and frankly all it should *have* to say is trail closed)

If more mountain bikers were willing to be a bit less selfish and give up a muddy ride for the good of us all and those who put in the effort to make their rides possible we'd all be in a better place.

Now I'm not calling everyone selfish, so don't let this get off on a tangent. I'm just saying that its a selfish reaction to be so "me me me" when presented with something people don't like.

I go back and forth between wanting to be Minnesota nice about this and being upset because at times I'm tired of trying to please everyone. I'd like to reach out and educate those that are willing... but strangle the ones who refuse to think of anyone but themselves. I suspect there are both types sharpening their cleats for spring riding, and being a "normal" winter this year it might be worse than ever.

[Trevize1138]

I go back and forth between wanting to be Minnesota nice about this and being upset because at times I'm tired of trying to please everyone. I'd like to reach out and educate those that are willing... but strangle the ones who refuse to think of anyone but themselves. I suspect there are both types sharpening their cleats for spring riding, and being a "normal" winter this year it might be worse than ever.

I don't think being "nice" to everyone should have anything to do with what you feel like doing, it's just sound tactics. :) I just know that it will do more good, overall, to treat everyone with the benefit of the doubt and keep my emotions in check when dealing with people who don't follow the rules. It's not about me being a good person or showing moral fiber or any of that BS. It's about the results.

It's like navigating a rock garden: your impulse may be to slow down, dab and walk it but your intellect needs to win over and push you through it. :)

Plus, I think MORC owes its very success and good standing with bikers, land managers, park districts and everyone else to presenting a positive, smiling face. Every time we're at an MPRB meeting I see all these other groups griping, complaining and copping an attitude with the board of "What have you guys done for me lately?"

And that gets those people nowhere. MORC comes in to the same setting, argues a cool, collected, logical case with zero confrontation and that gets s*** done. Plain and simple.

[gopherhockey]

And that gets those people nowhere. MORC comes in to the same setting, argues a cool, collected, logical case with zero confrontation and that gets s*** done. Plain and simple.

I agree. I guess what I'm saying is that its a tall order to completely eliminate all the misperceptions involved in this. At the end of the day there is only so much help we get from our respective land managers, and only so much we can do in the way of signs etc.

We (MORC) will continue to try to improve how we handle this.. but at the end of the day there will still be those that will view us as the bad guys. Its unfortunate is all I really wanted to say..

[Trevize1138]

I agree. I guess what I'm saying is that its a tall order to completely eliminate all the misperceptions involved in this. At the end of the day there is only so much help we get from our respective land managers, and only so much we can do in the way of signs etc.

We (MORC) will continue to try to improve how we handle this.. but at the end of the day there will still be those that will view us as the bad guys. Its unfortunate is all I really wanted to say..

Yeah, I see what you're saying there. You're right: there will always be people bad-mouthing what we do no matter what we do.

I guess I should concentrate on reminding people of what we have and how many good things we've done and how many, many people sing our praises. And, that's all a result of our organization playing "good cop" and "nice guy" all along. If you accept that there will always be some who only complain then you can just as easily not let them bug you. There's nothing we can do about them so just push on with what we've been doing.

[SPR]

How about a phone number with a recorded message stating the trail condition, whether the trail is open, closed and why it is closed.
In the past the topic concerning current trail conditions and the MORC website not being up to date with this info has been an issue. I would think phone message updating would be quick and allow more people to get information quicker.
This phone number could be posted at the trail head as well as on Closed Trail signs.

[bigwheel]

How about a phone number with a recorded message stating the trail condition, whether the trail is open, closed and why it is closed.
In the past the topic concerning current trail conditions and the MORC website not being up to date with this info has been an issue. I would think phone message updating would be quick and allow more people to get information quicker.
This phone number could be posted at the trail head as well as on Closed Trail signs.

This is what the Trail Conditions page is supposed to be for.

http://www.morcmtb.org/forums/trail.php

I can't speak for the other trails, but I have been pretty diligent trying to keep the Trail Conditions page up-to-date all winter for Leb. I usually update that page before even posting in the in-detail forum thread. When I haven't been around, I see that Craig has also been updating the conditions.

The Trail Conditions page is a good thing, but it needs two things to be successful:
1: People need to use it.
2: People need to keep it up-to-date.

Right now, anyone and everyone is able to update the trail conditions page. If we are unable to keep it up-to-date, I don't see how we are going to be able to keep a phone message up-to-date, when there are only a few people able to modify the message.

[SPR]

My thought is more people probably have phone access opposed to internet access while in transit and at a trailhead. Being able to call a number seems more logical than providing a web address in these situations. Calling in to change a message seems like a pretty easy task. If it is Park officials who are putting up the gates and fences why couldn't they phone in a new message regarding the trail closure. And it also has been my experience that not everyone is aware of MORC much less this website. True the trail conditions may be posted here but it goes back to my first sentence and those who didn't check the website.

[bobbkr]

How about a trail closed sign that features Shad's muddy tire track saying something like "Damage done in a few mintutes takes many hours to repair...think before you ride." I'm sure some of you graphics types out there could make a nice poster. Hey! A good idea for Charles' Crank Art exhibit!

[Trevize1138]

My thought is more people probably have phone access opposed to internet access while in transit and at a trailhead. Being able to call a number seems more logical than providing a web address in these situations. Calling in to change a message seems like a pretty easy task. If it is Park officials who are putting up the gates and fences why couldn't they phone in a new message regarding the trail closure. And it also has been my experience that not everyone is aware of MORC much less this website. True the trail conditions may be posted here but it goes back to my first sentence and those who didn't check the website.

It's a good idea, but with the exception of high-traffic trails like Leb, Murphy and Theo we do still have difficulty keeping trail conditions updated for the Web. I'd say once we tighten the information there up we could look into adding a phone service.

I brought up the idea of putting up tents and staffing volunteers there on nice days during the spring thaw based on my experience doing the same thing at Murphy last summer. Only difference was the trail was open but we wanted to reach people who had maybe not yet heard of MORC and what we do.

What we found out is exactly as you say: not everyone knows of us and certainly not this Web site! :) We actually had a few people come up to us with checks written out to become new members. We had to turn them away and ask that they mail that in, of course, because parks don't like the idea of people exchanging money on their property for obvious reasons.

The feedback we got from that event was overall quite positive and I'd actually say the majority of bikers we talked to were unaware of MORC! Based on that, if I could just get one would-be trail poacher introduced to MORC on friendly terms and turn them around to volunteer even one day of trail work to fix ruts then the venture's been worth it.

[KleinCrazy]

My thought is more people probably have phone access opposed to internet access while in transit and at a trailhead. Being able to call a number seems more logical than providing a web address in these situations.

Ummm...

Wouldn't a responsible person check the conditions of a trail before they leave or get to the trailhead? Is someone gets to the trailhead and the sign says closed, does it make sense for them to then call a phone number to hear the same thing?

I can see a phone number as being a resource, just like the trail conditions page, I just have a problem with your reasoning for use.

[gopherhockey]

Another challenge we have is that people peer over the fence, see dry soil, and assume the entire trail is that way. Then they get into it and wont' turn back when they realize the north side of the park (Leb anway) is always in better shape than the rest.

Even those that are somewhat trying to watch the trail suddenly become the experts in judging conditions.

Fence up in the spring? Trail closed. Period.

I've caught a few people who work in the local bike industry coming off a closed trail trying to inform me of trail conditions.... yea, ok, thanks for the heads up but you crossed the orange fence and last I checked that doesn't give you clearance to test things out. Even more often I see people walking in to check things out. Thats not *so* bad as long as all you are doing is checking but you do plan to leave. Technically we don't want foot traffic out there either..

Living near the trail also doesn't give you free license to roam. Nobody cares if you have lived there for years before MORC got involved.

Being a trail regular or even a MORC member is also no excuse. You might know the trail like the back of your hand but its still not up to you.

Oops, that sounds a little like complaining. Its just that there is a HUGE list of excuses from blaming MORC for being mean to feeling entitled because you pay taxes. (that one always gets me...) I think our being at the trailhead is the only way we're really going to avoid most of these.

[Lezgo Cycling]

I think our being at the trailhead is the only way we're really going to avoid most of these.

A tent and a table at the most popular trails on a few given nice weekends or weeknights whatever ???? IM in for Theo I can do a couple of these and help educate, and hopefully recruit some more trailworkers. Not to sound like all the trails arent important but we cant be at all of them, :cryin: unfortunately. But again my point is I can make time for a tent session or 2-3 at THEO

Let us know

[kabbie_cache]

Someone want to take charge here and set up some kind of schedule for when and what trails people will be at ?

I think most of us are in agreement that this might be the best aproach.

[gopherhockey]

Someone want to take charge here and set up some kind of schedule for when and what trails people will be at ?

I think most of us are in agreement that this might be the best aproach.

Unfortuately I cannot as I'm likely to be in Europe around this time, but I would love to see someone step up and organize this. Might be a lot of fun for people to start getting together in the spring...

[Trevize1138]

A tent and a table at the most popular trails on a few given nice weekends or weeknights whatever ???? IM in for Theo I can do a couple of these and help educate, and hopefully recruit some more trailworkers. Not to sound like all the trails arent important but we cant be at all of them, :cryin: unfortunately. But again my point is I can make time for a tent session or 2-3 at THEO

Let us know

Exactly: tt's not a matter of these trails being better, just in the most need of monitoring and theh best opportunity for educating more people. Considering our limited resources we really have no choice but to concentrate on the few, most used trails (and, yes, Leb, Theo and Murphy leap to mind.)

Another way to look at negative feedback about our trails and our work:

Personally, I don't volunteer my time with the goal of getting positive feedback. If someone thanks me for my work that's very nice but it's just icing. I've already got what I really want: a lot of great, unique trails right here in the metro. If somebody doesn't like them the best response is to be sympathetic and encourage them to get involved and make trails they do like. I used to hate Leb when it was 2 miles of boring doubletrack so I gladly got involved to help change it. That means I can empathize when someone doesn't like a trail. I've been there! :)

[kabbie_cache]

Would an example be something like ...

Voluteers needed for leb trail watch on mon wed fri from 5:00pm till 8:00pm
Some are also neede at theo on mon tue wed from 3:00pm till 6:00 pm

I dont know if I could make it to many of the trails myself but I could work up a schedule, if I knew when and what was needed.

[SPR]

Ummm...

Wouldn't a responsible person check the conditions of a trail before they leave or get to the trailhead? Is someone gets to the trailhead and the sign says closed, does it make sense for them to then call a phone number to hear the same thing?

I can see a phone number as being a resource, just like the trail conditions page, I just have a problem with your reasoning for use.

Not if they didn’t know that trail condition reports were available. <O:pMaybe I’m wrong here, but my assumption is that a person who has driven to a trail that has been closed doesn’t know of MORC or the website and thus would not know the trail was closed. <O:pMy point here is educating the masses who don’t know proper trail etiquette or realize there is informative MB resources such as this web site. I agree of the benefits to having tent days at trailheads, but unless you have unlimited free time you aren’t going to be there 100% of the time. Having additional means of communication can only help in the education process.<O:p

[jitterjepp]

Would an example be something like ...

Voluteers needed for leb trail watch on mon wed fri from 5:00pm till 8:00pm
Some are also neede at theo on mon tue wed from 3:00pm till 6:00 pm

This sounds more like policing than passing the word. If we're gonna go out and say were there to offer information on trail damage lets not use words like "trail watch".
Thats just a bit to close to being cops for me and a little stand offish.

[Lezgo Cycling]

This sounds more like policing than passing the word. If we're gonna go out and say were there to offer information on trail damage lets not use words like "trail watch".
Thats just a bit to close to being cops for me and a little stand offish.


was there any kind of title when we did the tent sessions last summer ? I agree Trail Watch sounds to harsh. Info session / or MORC demo day....something like that maybe

[kabbie_cache]

was there any kind of title when we did the tent sessions last summer ? I agree Trail Watch sounds to harsh. Info session / or MORC demo day....something like that maybe

I thought about that after I posted it.

How about ....

MORC New Member Drive
or
Trail Education Program
or
Be Kind To Our Trails Day/Week/Month

While we are out telling people about MORC, we can be reminding them about trail damage and a number of other things.

[KleinCrazy]

Not if they didn’t know that trail condition reports were available. <O:pMaybe I’m wrong here, but my assumption is that a person who has driven to a trail that has been closed doesn’t know of MORC or the website and thus would not know the trail was closed. <O:pMy point here is educating the masses who don’t know proper trail etiquette or realize there is informative MB resources such as this web site. I agree of the benefits to having tent days at trailheads, but unless you have unlimited free time you aren’t going to be there 100% of the time. Having additional means of communication can only help in the education process.<O:p

OK...

Would it suffice that there is information on the Kiosk that lists the rules of the trail and contact information for the MORC Website?

Perhaps this along with a contact number for the Parks department and the Website link for MORC Trail Conditions on both the Kiosk and on the trail closed signs?

At least that would allow people to "realize" (if they are not smart enough as it is) that the Trail closed sign is official, they can call the Park to check to verify that it is official, and they now have the information that they need to inform themselves if a trail is officially open or closed.

If provided with all of this information, I would have hard time believing someone found coming off the trail that "I didn't know"

[SPR]

OK...

Would it suffice that there is information on the Kiosk that lists the rules of the trail and contact information for the MORC Website?

Perhaps this along with a contact number for the Parks department and the Website link for MORC Trail Conditions on both the Kiosk and on the trail closed signs?

At least that would allow people to "realize" (if they are not smart enough as it is) that the Trail closed sign is official, they can call the Park to check to verify that it is official, and they now have the information that they need to inform themselves if a trail is officially open or closed.

If provided with all of this information, I would have hard time believing someone found coming off the trail that "I didn't know"
I agree and like these ideas. You know that despite all our good intentions to educate, there are still going to be a few bad apples who will ride the trails just to spite us for whatever reason.:nono: That and kids who have no clue at all.

[bikebud]

This has been fun and informative to read! We're going through the same issues here in TN where I moved to. It's been tough riding the fine line of who should patrol what amounts to public land.

I'd be curious to know how the Parks Dept. that runs trails like Leb. feel about this. Being their park isn't ultimately their responsibility to do the policing of the trails? I ask only because we face the same thing down here at a place called Hamilton Park. The local SORBA chapter is responsible for the trail work there but has no authority to do much other than give the evil eye if an uninformed rider heads out on the trails when wet.

The trail head is clearly signed to stay off the trails when wet, but the reality is that the Parks Dept. here has not and will not levy any penalty or fines on those coming off the trail full of mud.

I plan to follow this thread to, quite honestly, troll for information and ideas to pass on to the local SORBA chapter here as this is a topic that affects everyone who had put shovel to dirt (legally) on public land!

[ryno lite]

This has been fun and informative to read! We're going through the same issues here in TN where I moved to. It's been tough riding the fine line of who should patrol what amounts to public land.

I'd be curious to know how the Parks Dept. that runs trails like Leb. feel about this. Being their park isn't ultimately their responsibility to do the policing of the trails? I ask only because we face the same thing down here at a place called Hamilton Park. The local SORBA chapter is responsible for the trail work there but has no authority to do much other than give the evil eye if an uninformed rider heads out on the trails when wet.

The trail head is clearly signed to stay off the trails when wet, but the reality is that the Parks Dept. here has not and will not levy any penalty or fines on those coming off the trail full of mud.

I plan to follow this thread to, quite honestly, troll for information and ideas to pass on to the local SORBA chapter here as this is a topic that affects everyone who had put shovel to dirt (legally) on public land!

I won't speak up for Leb, there are others who could give you the details on that park, but another local park called Murphy Hanerhan has park police with the ability to ticket people riding during trail closures. This park system will obviously close the only trailhead to the trail and post that it is closed and why I think. This is only done during extreme times like spring thaw when some bad damage can occur. I have not heard of anyone getting tickets, but I know their officers can issue them. One thing nice about this park is that you can close the trailhead very easily. Those in the park when they are not supposed to be would knowingly violate a closure. I do not know if these officers have actually written any tickets yet. The trail just opened last May, so we haven't had any spring thaw closures to deal with so far. That will be the real test.

[bigwheel]

Everyone also needs to keep in mind that Dakota County often (at least half the time) closes Leb without MORC even requesting it. (this is good) Similarly, we often have to get permission to open it when Dakota would have otherwise left it closed. (also good)

Still, when Dakota closes the park, they don't put up a gob of obnoxious orange fence, lined with rope, and prominent signs like we do. So, it's easier for poachers to get around their closing. It is also the dirt bosses who put up additional fences and signs at many places within the trail, in case anyone "accidentally" doesn't see the fence and signs that they passed at the entrance.

I still hope Dakota tickets the poachers that are busting down and ruining our fences just to get in a ride on the wet trails that are obviously closed. You can call me a grumpy old man, but I think of it as being tired and frustrated of inconsiderate, selfish slobs.

[ryno lite]

Everyone also needs to keep in mind that Dakota County often (at least half the time) closes Leb without MORC even requesting it. (this is good) Similarly, we often have to get permission to open it when Dakota would have otherwise left it closed. (also good)

Still, when Dakota closes the park, they don't put up a gob of obnoxious orange fence, lined with rope, and prominent signs like we do. So, it's easier for poachers to get around their closing. It is also the dirt bosses who put up additional fences and signs at many places within the trail, in case anyone "accidentally" doesn't see the fence and signs that they passed at the entrance.

I still hope Dakota tickets the poachers that are busting down and ruining our fences just to get in a ride on the wet trails that are obviously closed. You can call me a grumpy old man, but I think of it as being tired and frustrated of inconsiderate, selfish slobs.

I'm with you Bob!

[Shorty]

Considering our limited resources we really have no choice but to concentrate on the few, most used trails (and, yes, Leb, Theo and Murphy leap to mind.)

Both the parking lot and trailhead gates at Murphy will be closed during the spring thaw.
I don't anticipate much need if no one can access the parking lot and the gates to the trail are closed.

If something is organized I will have to run it by Three Rivers.

Please contact me before you make any plans for Murphy.

[SPR]

OK...

Would it suffice that there is information on the Kiosk that lists the rules of the trail and contact information for the MORC Website?

Perhaps this along with a contact number for the Parks department and the Website link for MORC Trail Conditions on both the Kiosk and on the trail closed signs?

At least that would allow people to "realize" (if they are not smart enough as it is) that the Trail closed sign is official, they can call the Park to check to verify that it is official, and they now have the information that they need to inform themselves if a trail is officially open or closed.

If provided with all of this information, I would have hard time believing someone found coming off the trail that "I didn't know"

This is along the lines of what I had in mind.
http://www.morcmtb.org/photopost/data/542/medium/Murphy_Closed_1.JPG

[Shorty]

This is along the lines of what I had in mind.
http://www.morcmtb.org/photopost/data/542/medium/Murphy_Closed_1.JPG

Most likely, we'll only see this sign during the spring thaw.

It'll be posted if we get unusually large amounts of rain for extended periods, there is some sort of safety concern, or there is extensive storm damage on the trail. Otherwise, the sign will be removed... and it's the only sign at the trailhead (that I know of) that has the hotline number on it.

The number listed is the Three Rivers Hotline - it is for all trails and sledding hills in the park district. It won't have detailed information regarding specific conditions. During the summer and fall the phone line will say the trail is open... even if it just rained and it's actually too wet to ride... the phone line is for seasonal closures and for major safety issues.

Once the trail is open, I'll be requesting that the recording say something along the lines of, "The trail is open, as long as the trail surface is not wet or muddy. During wet conditions, the trail is closed. Please allow trail to dry before use."

[SPR]

Wondering if the MORC homepage could display a message stating that trails are closed? A large message above the the Trail Conditions link.

[Ish]

Wondering if the MORC homepage could display a message stating that trails are closed? A large message above the the Trail Conditions link.

Werd! And include a link to a brief write-up on why the land managers have closed them and what MORC is doing to work with them to get them open as soon as possible when the trails are dry and ready. This would be better than spamming every thread with anti-mud sentiments.

[lostboy]

or what about signs on all trail heads or gates that say for up to date trail conditions check www.morcmtb.org (http://www.morcmbtb.org).

That also gets the word about morc on their/our trails. Just an idea

[ryno lite]

or what about signs on all trail heads or gates that say for up to date trail conditions check www.morcmtb.org (http://www.morcmbtb.org).

That also gets the word about morc on their/our trails. Just an idea

Some land managers don't want us to post up our website on closing signs. They would rather have their own phone number posted. Also, if we post a MORC website on a closed sign, people tend to think MORC is closing the trail, when in reality it is the parks department, not MORC.

[lostboy]

if we post a MORC website on a closed sign, people tend to think MORC is closing the trail, when in reality it is the parks department, not MORC.

that makes sense

[ryno lite]

that makes sense
Although we all know you get way better trail updates on this site versus a park phone number, but thats the way they want it, which keeps the target off of our butt anyway.

[Shorty]

Wondering if the MORC homepage could display a message stating that trails are closed? A large message above the the Trail Conditions link.

Werd! And include a link to a brief write-up on why the land managers have closed them and what MORC is doing to work with them to get them open as soon as possible when the trails are dry and ready. This would be better than spamming every thread with anti-mud sentiments.

+1 on both.

I think these are great ideas. Hopefully someone will follow through on it... if no one does it sooner, I'd be happy to write something later this week.

[Shawno]

That's what I was thinking.

[Shorty]

If something is written, will it be posted on MORC's homepage?

Shad? John?

[gopherhockey]

If something is written, will it be posted on MORC's homepage?

Shad? John?

I posted up a news bit and some text under the trail conditions button... I haven't read through this whole thread, but I wonder if we could get the news to places like skinniski, various race teams and organizations email lists, and larger bike industry and shop lists (QBP, Erik's, Penn etc.)

If someone wants to write something up we can be sure it gets distributed..

[Ish]

I posted up a news bit and some text under the trail conditions button....

I immediately noticed it when hitting the MORC home page on the way to the forums. Very well written. Thanks for doing that.

[ryno lite]

I immediately noticed it when hitting the MORC home page on the way to the forums. Very well written. Thanks for doing that.


Yeah, rather effective. It was short, simple and obvious.

[analoguekid]

I tried to read through this entire thread...so forgive me if this came up...
what about getting the LBS'sss to put a sign reminding people that the trails are still closed. they could also put up a sign when they're finally open...

db