Overtraining: more than 3-4 times a week too much?

[Trevize1138]

I've started running ... yet again ... in an attempt to get in shape with my suddenly more limited time schedule (new baby!). Now, in recent years my attempts to get in running shape have always failed because I'd get some kind of muscle or joint pain.

This time around I'm trying something different: running less! I ran track and CC in high school and used to run 5-6 times a week and usually 5+ miles each time. Anything less and "I'll never get in shape."

But, now that I'm old(er) my body just can't take it. But, even if my body could take it, do I really need more than 3 miles 3 times a week?

When I look back on last season trying for a series standing in the MNSCS I got in some great shape but my average riding schedule wasn't more than 3 times a week and rarely for longer than 90 minutes.

So, are those extra 2-3 days of workouts in HS just an example of coaches and parents pushing kids way harder than they need to due to that whole living vicariously phenominon? Or, is there an actual benefit to training 5-6 times a week vs 3-4? Finally, if there is a benefit to taking only one day off a week from training, is it only minor/diminishing returns when you train more often?

[Lezgo Cycling]

Well I would think that it is no different than working out in the gym, your body needs a break. I say go for the 3-4 instead of the 5-6 and rest yourself in between or do something different not so hard on your OLD(er) knees :D switch it up.

[Cars-R-Coffins]

3-4 times is good. I learned if you do that every other day you build more muscle, At least that works for me.:banana:

[Paul Swenson]

I suspect you’re ramping up the running too fast. You used to run 25 miles a week so in your opinion anything less is not a big deal. The conventional wisdom is that you shouldn’t add more then 10% mileage in a week so if your comfortable doing 10 miles a week right now try add a mile next week. Considering you used to run a lot this may seem tedious but it should help you avoid injury.

[Trevize1138]

I suspect you’re ramping up the running too fast. You used to run 25 miles a week so in your opinion anything less is not a big deal. The conventional wisdom is that you shouldn’t add more then 10% mileage in a week so if your comfortable doing 10 miles a week right now try add a mile next week. Considering you used to run a lot this may seem tedious but it should help you avoid injury.

That's the very mental game I'm playing! :)

Yeah, it's a HUGE challenge for me to not run more and not run fast. I time myself, too, and cringe when I see I'm doing 8-9 minute miles but I know I have to resist the urge to run under 8 minute miles. I'm also trying to do quicker, shorter strides so the impact isn't so great each step.

I think biking only compounds this mental game. I bike 6 1/2 miles from my house to the Theo trailhead, do several laps and bike home. It's so difficult to believe I'm getting any benefit from only 3 miles.

[Slimpee]

I agree, cut it down if you've been injuring yourself. There are many things I could do in HS that I can't do know and i'm only 24! Perhaps you can work a little swimming or weight training in the off days.

Just sign up for a triathlon and you'll be forced to vary it up!

[Paul Swenson]

That's the very mental game I'm playing! :)

Yeah, it's a HUGE challenge for me to not run more and not run fast. I time myself, too, and cringe when I see I'm doing 8-9 minute miles but I know I have to resist the urge to run under 8 minute miles. I'm also trying to do quicker, shorter strides so the impact isn't so great each step.

I think biking only compounds this mental game. I bike 6 1/2 miles from my house to the Theo trailhead, do several laps and bike home. It's so difficult to believe I'm getting any benefit from only 3 miles.

Try using a HRM and set it so it beeps when your heart rate gets too high. I also find that listening to reggie and jam band music slows me down

[jkalla]

That's the very mental game I'm playing! :)

Yeah, it's a HUGE challenge for me to not run more and not run fast.

If I lived in your neighborhood - I would be running fast too.:shocked:

[Ish]

More than 3 a week can definately help you if done right. Its not the number of times, but how you train.

There are many, many books on this subject and many trainers willing to take your money to help you.

Start by builing a base (LSD - long, slow). Then add in intervals. Don't forget recovery days. and stretching.

[RedSquirrel]

Happy birthday old man. Oh wait, wrong thread. Call me and I'll steer ya in the wrong direction.

[Paul Swenson]

check out Chi Running. http://www.chirunning.com/shop/home.php

He makes some interesting recommendations.

[BG128]

Good shoes, slow it down even more than you think you need to & log miles not time. I find when I do that by the end of the month I feel good as the miles add up.

[Trevize1138]

Good shoes, slow it down even more than you think you need to & log miles not time. I find when I do that by the end of the month I feel good as the miles add up.

I know the last time I gave it a try I started out on shoes that were good but worn out. The shoes I have now are still new enough but I'd say in a month I should trade 'em up for new ones. I'm lucky that Asics seem to fit my feet and running style the best, so it's easy enough to just switch out the shoes every couple of months (a suggestion I once heard because running shoes can lose support pretty quick with use).

[50 Merc]

Just trust your own body. If you have a particularly tough run, make the next day's easier in terms of pace. If you are still sore after that, take a day off. A person of average fitness will not experience a reduction in overall fitness levels just by taking a day or two off here and there.

[BG128]

(a suggestion I once heard because running shoes can lose support pretty quick with use).
I get new shoes every 300-400 miles if I don't I pay with pain & knee problems.

[SpecHR55]

During CC season we go 9 times a week, 3-4 times is good. Haha "Gym class says"... 3-7 times of physical excersize for 45min is recommended. (mmhm..) And we were told to replace shoes every 300miles or else back problems, shin splints, and a whole bunch of hoo ha can happen.

Happy running! :-)

[Nita]

Running is the hardest exercise on the body, I think you have to get in shape to run to begin with. People who start running again because they used to run when they were in highschool usually injure themselves. I know that's exactly what you are trying to do by running (get in shape) but I think you should incorporate some strength-training in there and build some muscle to reach your goals safer. Unless you just want to loose fat, but then you'll end up being a smaller version of yourself. I mean look at marathon runners, they are just so stringy-looking. :p Try to incorporate some interval training into your routine so you can shorten the time running and limit the damage on your knees and feet (not to mention the lower back). Interval training is where you run at a very fast clip until you reach your Maximum Heart Rate, then slow down to a fat burning range and repeat. (You'd need a heart rate monitor of course.) Maximum heart rate is 220 minus your age multiplied by 80%. Fat burning level is at 60%. Also, the body will get better at everything it does with repetition, so that's why I'm a big believer in changing it up and pushing some weights. And don't forget your nutrition, depending on your body weight you should figure out how much protein your getting each day to support that muscle. For a 150 pound person, shooting for 85 to 100 grams of protein should support an athlete, less if your inactive of course. I really believe that weak muscles lead to injury. And fish oil is the best thing for aching joints. So eat your tuna man!

[jitterjepp]

I agree, cut it down if you've been injuring yourself. There are many things I could do in HS that I can't do know and i'm only 24! Perhaps you can work a little swimming or weight training in the off days.

Just sign up for a triathlon and you'll be forced to vary it up!Top racers for endurance competition are often over 30 years old. Thinking that your best years were in high school is way off. You've still got baby fat in those muscles at 24.

[Pandl]

So eat your tunaman!
Your what?

[GearDaddy]

Of course it depends on what you are really training for, but 3-4 times a week of 5 mile runs sounds like too much. You appear to be in a "base" building phase, i.e. you haven't been training much at all lately and you are trying to lose weight and get back some aerobic capacity. I think you should concentrate on doing longer, less intense workouts to get to a point where you are starting to feel good with your overall fitness. If you are battling through muscle soreness, fatigue, and aches right now, then you are definitely hitting it too hard.

Basing your workout on your high school training regimen is wrong for a few reasons. One is certainly that you don't have a 17 year old body that is capable of adequete recovery in a short time. I noticed that muscle soreness issues started getting a lot worse at about age 38. Now, when I start running after a long layoff my first few runs are only about a mile long. DOMS (delayed onset muscle soreness) is not a good thing, i.e. you'll be better off if you can minimize this and ramp up slowly to longer runs.

Another reason not to follow your high school training is that I don't think a lot of it makes much sense. As an example, my niece and nephew typically train for their high school X-C ski team by going on these weekend trips where they try to ski 100+ K's, all to prepare for a 5K race that lasts about 15 minutes. It's stupid, and I really think a lot of coaches at that level don't know what the heck they're doing. They seem to know nothing about base building and periodization.

It's also very important to know exactly what you're training for here. If you want to do running races or triathalons then great, work up to 20 miles a week of running. However, if you are trying to build up for bike racing specifically, then this amount of running is counterproductive. It might be OK for building aerobic capacity and some core strength, but it's not the right training for the legs. You need to be getting on the bike. First do longer, slow or tempo level rides. After at least 2 or 3 weeks of that you can start hitting intervals and such.

[Slimpee]

Top racers for endurance competition are often over 30 years old. Thinking that your best years were in high school is way off. You've still got baby fat in those muscles at 24.

You're right on this. I was referring more to recovery time. I used to be able to bike around and play all sorts of sports w/out any repercussions but now my muscles don't recover as fast.

For what it's worth i'm better now at all sports than I was younger except perhaps biking...

[Slimpee]

Another thing that got me running a few days a week besides the motivation of being signed up for a race is the pure excitement of beating a PR. I know that timed runs aren't always appropriate but when I ran my 4.4 mile house-Lake of the Isles-house loop in under 29 minutes I was wicked excited. Perhaps that's not fast to some but I wasn't expecting to run that fast w/out more training...

[SpecHR55]

Start off slow and slowly build up or else you'll get shin splints. Your muscles need to get used to constant impact and endurance of running. Starting off too strong or hard can hurt you in the long run.

[Paul Swenson]

Three simple letters:

HGH

[Slimpee]

Why do you want to run anyway? Running is only fun if it's in the wilderness or you're playing a sport.

Otherwise it's boring and it just hurts...

[BajaDakota]

Chris-

First, I'm glad to see that you recognize your intensity and are asking the right questions. The American way of "if a litttle is good, than more (intensity) must be better" can cause overtraining syndrome.

I'd like to touch on a few things if you'll allow me. I'll try not to let my train of thought get too far off track, or bounce around.

Aerobic endurance peaks around 30 years old and then decreases by 5-8% each year following. Though you will see endurance athletes at a high levels into their late 30's and early 40's due to the fact that aerobic capacity is cumulative and can be maintained. So, your running of 3x per week of about a half-hour each should be considered supplementary to your cycling and is added to your total training time.

Intensity: Use of Heart-Rate, or Rate of Perceived Exertion: The standard MaxHR = 220-age is ok for the general population but for a competative athlete has too great a varience (10-12 beats per minute), therefor distorts the desired intensity. You would benefit by picking up a book like Chris Carmichael's "Ultimate Ride" and following a field test to get an accurate training intensity level or ranges to customize your routine. You could also follow the Borg scale of Rate of Perceived Exertion where-in you judge you intensity against a scale that correlates intensity with HR. Easy to find online. Remember to follow all high intensity efforts with a low intensity effort. For recovery you can do a recovery ride at a snails pace. Don't let your HR get over 60% of your maxHR. Or, take a day completely off.

"Fat Burning": There is a widely held belief that you can lose more weight by working out in this "fat burning zone". Here is the reality. If a person exercises in the fat burning zone they will burn a higher percentage of fat for fuel. But that person will burn fewer total calories. There is a process called the Respiratory Exchange Ratio which tells us what we are using a substrate for fuel. At rest the RER is at about .85 where we are burning almost 100% fat. The closer to 1.00 we get the more Carbohydrates we are using. At 1.15 it is 100% Carbs. This is a near maximal effort and can not be sustained for any period of time. Point is, is that to lose weight we must have a negative energy balance, simplyput we must burn more calories than we consume.

Periodization: Divide your cycling year into cycles; for example, Base Building/weight lose, Intensity/strength building, Racing, and Recovery. If you race in the winter split your seasons into two different meso-cycles, one for summer sports and one for winter sports. Let's say you only race MNSCS. After the last race you'll want to take a week or two off to let your body fix itself. Rest...then while still in the recovery cycle you'll want to do some cross training such as running, or rollerblade etc. at a low intensity..along with some resistance training. After a couple months of this you'll move into your Base building cycle. The LSD (Long Slow Distance) mode where you'll focus mostly on going an hour and a half or more at moderate intensity. Continue resistance training. As you move closer to your racing season you will shorten your rides and increase the intensity. Then you will move into the Racing Cycle and on to the Recovery Cycle again.

This is just an example and you might already know some of this. You would want to do some reading and research the topics to fill in any gaps. There is too much info to cover in this blog.

* for credibilitie's sake: I have a degree in Fitness Management, ACE certified Personal Trainer, and was on staff at the Nora Staael Evert Center for Human Performance and Fitness Technology at NSU in Aberdeen, SD where I assisted in testing athletes and teaching Exercise Physiology labs to PE, Wellness, and Fitness Management majors.

Please let me know if I can answer any further questions.:)

Have a great ride!!

Rick Ochs

[Trevize1138]

Rick,

Sorry for the late reply, but thanks for the long list of tips! Interesting, good stuff.

Just wanted to update this thread and report that my plan's been working! :banana: It's been slow going but it's been going. I accidentally went a full week between runs a couple of times, even, and fought the mental block of my HS track/CC coach's voice in my head: "If you take a week off you'll be totally out of shape!" Yeah, uh huh. I felt better and stronger sometimes on those first runs after such a long break.

A couple weeks ago I started doing 6 milers every 2-3 days with a simple premise: run slower. I mapped out my course with Google Earth and the first run averaged 9:10/mile. I got down to about 8:50/mile and was still feeling good.

Sunday I thought I'd blown it, though, by doing a 3 1/2 mile run averaging 7:55/mile making my legs ache. I was still worried I'd gone and done it again and injured myself when I went out yesterday but ended up doing 6 miles at 8:36/mile! Felt great the whole time, even into the wind and still feel good.

This whole taking a day or two off between runs is working like gangbusters, I think. I'm feeling brave enough now to push myself a bit more during my runs, especially with dry trails just a couple weeks away.

[seberly]

One thing that may not have been mentioned is you might think about running on grass or trails as often as you can (if you can) as it is way easier on the body regardless of pace/distance.

[Trevize1138]

One thing that may not have been mentioned is you might think about running on grass or trails as often as you can (if you can) as it is way easier on the body regardless of pace/distance.

I go back-and-forth with that theory. I'm notorious for ankles that twist far too easily so that's actually a danger running in grass/dirt as it's a much more uneven surface than something paved.

[Paul Swenson]

I go back-and-forth with that theory. I'm notorious for ankles that twist far too easily so that's actually a danger running in grass/dirt as it's a much more uneven surface than something paved.


I do to.
<O:p
My latest theory is that it is not the softness of dirt trails but the unevenness. Repetitive stress injuries are caused by repetition and when on dirt there is less repetition. I think you also use a larger variety of muscles so that helps as well.

If you’re twist your ankle maybe put a little dirt in each run and do it slowly to build up the muscles that prevent your ankle from twisting

[Thewavebb]

Back in my XC day's, my coach would actually have us run in barefoot a fair amount on our short distance intervals. We had a really nice soccer field area that we'd run on and over the 6 years of racing, I never had a single sprain/twist. Come college and I just ran on pavement and I started spraining ankles on an yearly basis.

I think there was something to the barefoot training on grass.

[BajaDakota]

Chris- Glad to hear things are progressing. <TABLE class=tborder style="BORDER-TOP-WIDTH: 0px" cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR title="Post 278650" vAlign=top><TD class=alt2>This whole taking a day or two off between runs is working like gangbusters, I think. I'm feeling brave enough now to push myself a bit more during my runs, especially with dry trails just a couple weeks away.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=thead colSpan=2>03-03-2008 11:54 AM</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Just try not to let that "old-school" coaches voice become too loud. That good old, "if some is good, than more must be better" mentality.

The most recent reading I've done on running is indicating a move toward more natural surface training such as grass or trail work. The benefits are nice in that you decrease the impact and increase resistance, giving yourself a higher intensity due to lifting your feet higher off of the running surface.

Most of the recommendations are to slow the pace in the begining to adapt to the resistance and trail surface variations. Common sense stuff.

Side Note: I like to use mapmyrun.com or mapmyride.com to log miles and routes. You can select a start point and then waypoints and the system also has an elevation view.

Keep it up, and good luck.

Rick O.

[ppgc]

Back in my XC day's, my coach would actually have us run in barefoot a fair amount on our short distance intervals.

We did that too, I think it helps. BTW, how much goose sh!t did you step in while running on those field barefoot? :)

[Thewavebb]

We did that too, I think it helps. BTW, how much goose sh!t did you step in while running on those field barefoot? :)

HAHAHAHAHAHA Oh man...good times. I forgot about that.

[MisterClaw]

Back in my XC day's, my coach would actually have us run in barefoot

Back in my XC days, my couch had us ran, jump and slide on our bellies in the huge puddle that'd be next to WSHS. We also ran up the creek that goes through the St. Mary's campus.
He was little nuts.

[Trevize1138]

Back in my XC days, my couch had us ran, jump and slide on our bellies in the huge puddle that'd be next to WSHS. We also ran up the creek that goes through the St. Mary's campus.
He was little nuts.

HS CC coaches are nuts as a rule, I think. My "favorite" days were doing 1/4 mile intervals at Tom O'Leary Golf Course in Bismarck. They let us use the practice fairway which was "perfect" because you'd start from the edge of the tee-off, run 100 meters downhill, 100 meters uphill, around the green, back downhill 100 meters, finish uphill 100 meters.

After 5 or 6 you swore you couldn't do anymore.

Around #8 your legs felt three feet thick.

By the time 10 and 11 rolled around some of us would comment we were getting headaches so the coach would call it quits.

He always said we'd do 14 but we never made it that far because he said headaches were the warning sign and the next stage was blacking out. :cool:

[bcrew]

All the rage these days for runners is no paved surfaces. Since I've gone to trail running, my chronic injuries have retreated. And I'm an old fella at 43 y.o. I was a full convert after reading an Outside article about Alberto Salazar who after he burned out spectacularily in his marathon days, took on running coaching. His students do not run on paved surfaces and he never will again either. In keeping with the spirit of this forum and organization, go off-road fellow runner, you will see good results. I don't buy the overtraining theory, if you are getting chronic injuries as you increase your distance/frequency, your technique, form, and running surfaces are the suspect causes.

[quickerpicker]

Watching this thread, I agree with most of the take days off, and run in the grass stuff. At 46 years old, and 245#, I can't run more than 2x per week. I've got kids in high school who run X-C, ski in the winter, and track in the spring. The go 5 days per week - hill, intervals, fartleks, distance, etc. but they're shot on the week ends. I think as we age, variety works better than intensity.

I'm training for the Cass lake 50/Chippewa Tri in June and other canoe/mtn. bike/trail run triathlons. I like running on the cross country ski trails, low impact etc. Road running bothers my legs for 2-3 days afterwards.

Nita mentioned weights earlier in the thread, and the combination of paddling, running, and riding; the weights have made a HUGE difference in strength, and no injury. I do intervals 1 day on bike, 1 day running, and 1 day distance usually combining running and riding. Weights 2x per week, once with high weight/low reps, the other day with low weight/high reps. Now that there's open water, some paddling rounds out the summer. I do bricks or 2-a-days, to allow 2-3 days off per week. When it gets too much, a take 4-5 days off. I'm always in the back of the pack when I race, but its fun.

[Paul Swenson]

I also find that yoga is good. I've been going to Yoga for Men over in Longfellow and it's helped keep me injury free

http://www.minnehahayoga.com/description.html