MNSCS Team Competition 08'

[Matthew]

For those who competed in the mnscs team series last season, are there any changes or additional things you would like this year. We are doing the team series again, but I would like to know if any changes need to be made. Do we need bigger trophys at the end of the year?:banana:

[Tower]

Hey Matt-
Glad to hear the Team Series is back...

One suggestion is to incorporate female scores for the team with the males unless they are signed up in a female class.

Second, how about prorating points for teams that don't meet the 3 person minimum on a given week? If a team has one or two guys show shouldn't they get some prorated points?

And most importantly- reward Teams that participate at the events. Allow podium shots for teams. Not sure if you'll be able to calculate winners quick enough after the event, but if you can it would be a huge positive.

[FarmerBEN]

I don't know how hard it would be, but a team class for citizen would be nice. it's kind of hard to non-racers into joining your team if they have to jump right into Sport Class.

[Matthew]

Second, how about prorating points for teams that don't meet the 3 person minimum on a given week? If a team has one or two guys show shouldn't they get some prorated points?

Last year I did give points to any team that had at least one person show. The only time I didn't give any points out was if no team had three people at it. Otherwise if you had one or two people show up to the race I did count your score and give you points accordingly. Sometimes it maybe didn't seem like I gave points because the score wasn't high enough to displace one of your other races (only the top 5 got counted).

One suggestion is to incorporate female scores for the team with the males unless they are signed up in a female class.


I could do this but the females would be given places against the males as well. Meaning the first place female would not be given first place points but would be given points based on her overall finish against the men as well. Not sure how everyone would feel about this, but it would definately encourage teams to have female members.

but a team class for citizen would be nice
The reason I didn't do a citizen class last year was that it didn't seem like there would be many teams that would have the same 3 racers show up to multiple events. If there are a lot of citizen class racers who show up to all the events and would like a team class it would be easy enough to do.

[hockeynut]

I think the WORS has team scoring cover the gambit of racing classes. I don't know for sure how they do it, but I think Citizen riders gain points, Sport gain 2X points etc. That might make it easier for smaller teams to field a full 3 slots.

For example the team I am on (which may or may not race many MNSCS races) has roughly 2 or so Citizen riders, 2 or so Sport riders, 1 Comp and 1 Expert. In the current team format we don't really qualify.

Also.... maybe have a SS team option?

We'll still be there at many of the races regardless, just throwing the idea out there.

Yo ho ho!

[gpzrider]

I know if there was an option for citizen class racers, I'd be already trying to get a team together for the season. The ability to mix-and-match riders from different classes, including citizen, on a single team would be great as well.

[Matthew]

I know if there was an option for citizen class racers, I'd be already trying to get a team together for the season.

I can definately do a citizen class next year with no problems. As far as scoring across multiple classes goes, I might have to do some more research into it. Maybe I will try to talk to the wors people to see how they score it and run it. To me it seems like if your citizen class racers score x points, but your expert class racers score 4x points, the team with the most experts would pretty much win every time. That sort of devalues the citizen and sport class riders and I think the sport class had the deepest and closest competition last year for the series overall. One thing I could do is maybe keep track of overall best team, by simply combining overall team scores in all 4 categories at the end of the season. You also have to understand that I am doing this completely volunteer and on my free time so the less complex the better.

[Matthew]

I like the feedback so far and keep it coming. One thing I will definately do is have a citizen class team comp next year.

[FarmerBEN]

I can definately do a citizen class next year with no problems. As far as scoring across multiple classes goes, I might have to do some more research into it. Maybe I will try to talk to the wors people to see how they score it and run it. To me it seems like if your citizen class racers score x points, but your expert class racers score 4x points, the team with the most experts would pretty much win every time. That sort of devalues the citizen and sport class riders

Which is the way it should be. That would increase the number of people able to field and participate in the team comp, and it would be a great way to keep people moving up the ladder and prevent sandbagging.


Also more so in terms of overall MNSCS racing, would there be away of creating as season ending race that would be a sort of invitational championship, that would take qualifiers from the series and have one championship race? Every sport has a playoff to determine the championship, even nascar has gone to their own version of a playoff system. Not to say that the current system is bad, just a little anti-climactic perhaps.

[Matthew]

Also more so in terms of overall MNSCS racing, would there be away of creating as season ending race that would be a sort of invitational championship, that would take qualifiers from the series and have one championship race? Every sport has a playoff to determine the championship, even nascar has gone to their own version of a playoff system. Not to say that the current system is bad, just a little anti-climactic perhaps.

The laddies loppet stage race has sort of always filled that role. For years it was the official one day state championship, now it is just one of the mnscs races but it is the one that usacycling takes for entrants to the national championships. The series is just that The Series so a one day championship might have to be organized by someone else through usacycling.

[gpzrider]

Found this on the WORS web site regarding team scoring and how the different classes a weighted:

<table ?width="159" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td bgcolor="#000000" width="85">Class</td> <td colspan="3" bgcolor="#000000" width="54">Multiplier</td></tr> <tr> <td width="85">Citizen Youth</td> <td align="center" width="23">x</td> <td align="center" width="18">.6</td> <td align="right" width="10">
</td></tr> <tr> <td width="85">Citizen</td> <td align="center" width="23">x</td> <td align="center" width="18">.9</td> <td align="right" width="10">
</td></tr> <tr> <td width="85">Sport</td> <td align="center" width="23">x</td> <td align="center" width="18">1.2</td> <td width="10">
</td></tr> <tr> <td width="85">Comp</td> <td align="center" width="23">x</td> <td align="center" width="18">1.5</td> <td width="10">
</td></tr> <tr> <td width="85">Elite</td> <td align="center" width="23">x</td> <td align="center" width="18">1.8</td> <td width="10">
</td></tr></tbody></table>

[grizzly adam]

I think for sure kids' races should be scored at 10x. =p

Great job last year Matt - thanks. I'm looking forward to this year's competition.

[fasterfoster]

I think for sure kids' races should be scored at 10x. =p

Great job last year Matt - thanks. I'm looking forward to this year's competition.
That would certainly help us out!!!

[Stonehenge]

I like the feedback so far and keep it coming. One thing I will definately do is have a citizen class team comp next year.
Wondering about how to increased participation for team.
Last year was 3 min to score in any one level and many teams had scratched because only 2 raced in a class. The outcome could easily have been different if two were counted.
As a thought to create more teams / competition - toy with the idea of two can score in a class provided x number of team entrants across all classes is met. This way a smaller team with riders in multiple classes could still participate and join the team comp fun. Per level, still top 3 max will score all three and now 2 will score only if say at least total of 5 on team raced that day.

Just a thought to increase the dicing and fun of it

[RichZilla]

Wondering about how to increased participation for team.
Last year was 3 min to score in any one level and many teams had scratched because only 2 raced in a class. The outcome could easily have been different if two were counted.
As a thought to create more teams / competition - toy with the idea of two can score in a class provided x number of team entrants across all classes is met. This way a smaller team with riders in multiple classes could still participate and join the team comp fun. Per level, still top 3 max will score all three and now 2 will score only if say at least total of 5 on team raced that day.

Just a thought to increase the dicing and fun of it

Last year I did give points to any team that had at least one person show. The only time I didn't give any points out was if no team had three people at it. Otherwise if you had one or two people show up to the race I did count your score and give you points accordingly. Sometimes it maybe didn't seem like I gave points because the score wasn't high enough to displace one of your other races (only the top 5 got counted).


Got yer readin' glasses on there old man?:p

[Stonehenge]

that fine print will get ya every time if you dont watch out..... I'll just move the marbles, you count em.
_______________________________
And: Old is for those who choose not to be young

[Matthew]

As already pointed out I did give scores to teams with only 2 or even 1 rider. However you had to have 3 riders to win a class. As long as a class had at least one team with 3 riders then every team that had a rider finish was counted.

[grizzly adam]

So far it sounds like the only thing to add is the Citizen class points, which you're planning. Awesome.

[fasterfoster]

So far it sounds like the only thing to add is the Citizen class points, which you're planning. Awesome.
...and Kids??? Our team has as many kids as adults!
I understand the problem with the low numbers, tho'!

[Trevize1138]

On the subject of teams ... team relay events? :cool:

I still fondly remember the 3 person team relay at Lebanon during the 2nd TT a couple years ago. Might be a fun "exhibition" event for places like Salem Hills maybe. No points awarded or standings involved, just a crowd-pleaser. In track-and-field they save the 4X400 relay for last because it's such a crowd favorite.

[Matthew]

On the subject of teams ... team relay events

That actually sounds like a really awesome idea. I am thinking salem or maplelag could pull that off. You would want a short course so the action is fast. It would have to be in the afternoon after the experts race though. Would that still work do you think?

[hockeynut]

That actually sounds like a really awesome idea. I am thinking salem or maplelag could pull that off. You would want a short course so the action is fast. It would have to be in the afternoon after the experts race though. Would that still work do you think?

I also think that Red Wing would be a pretty decent spot for it. The U of M race has had a short track event that is essentially the doubletrack that goes around the first clearing. Might be a way to get people to stick around a bit longer, though on a Sunday people seem to want to get out of dodge 15 seconds after their race is over to try and get back home.

[grizzly adam]

If we - BCR - do the Time Trial again this year, we'll try to have a team relay event.

[gpzrider]

Sounds like citizen class teams will be in, but was wondering about "mixed teams", with riders from different classes. Any more thoughts on that?

[Matthew]

Sounds like citizen class teams will be in, but was wondering about "mixed teams", with riders from different classes. Any more thoughts on that?

I am talking about it with Jeff and I am thinking about doing something like this but not for every race. What I was thinking was an end of the year award for best overall team. Meaning the team that had the best final standings in all 4 classes. If I tried to do it using a points or percentage system and tabulating the results for every race it would quickly become to much work for me.

Another thing I was thinking about doing this year is letting the ladies race on either thier own womens team against the other womens team. Or if teams want they can be listed on the roster with the men and just scored with the men. My thinking here is that a lot of teams can only field one or two female riders which isn't enough for a full team, but those ladies would help complete the mens team and they usually finish mid pack with the men anyway so in many cases they would be crucial to some of the mens scores.

Anyway those two things plus a citizen class are the only changes I am making this year so far. How about number of races? Last year I only counted a teams top 5 finishes, but with 10 races in the series a team could skip half of them and still not be penalized. Should I increase it?

[grizzly adam]

I vote for:
Count 8 of the 10 races. It is a team competition after all. Make people accountable.
Score the ladies with the men. If they have enough for a team and there are two ladies' teams, score them separate from the men.

[Trevize1138]

I also think that Red Wing would be a pretty decent spot for it. The U of M race has had a short track event that is essentially the doubletrack that goes around the first clearing. Might be a way to get people to stick around a bit longer, though on a Sunday people seem to want to get out of dodge 15 seconds after their race is over to try and get back home.

Yeah, that's my only hesitation, too. You really wouldn't want to do it until after the main events and then attendance becomes a problem. On the other side of that, maybe it'd be a neat gimmick for getting people to stick around longer who wouldn't otherwise? (Like me! hee hee)

Maplelag would be ideal because it's already multi-day with the stage races on Saturday. Just add team relay to the list of Saturday's events.

I wouldn't want it to be 100% doubletrack or too short, though. On the other hand, the Leb TT relays were 4 miles a lap but that's probably too long. I'm thinking 1-2 mile laps getting in as much singletrack out of the course as possible with the shorter distance. Salem again comes to mind because you could just do laps around the north loop concentrating the spectators on the grassy/open areas. Race might only take about 20 minutes that way, too!

[Trevize1138]

If we - BCR - do the Time Trial again this year, we'll try to have a team relay event.

Hells yeah! :banana: