View Full Version : Active Braking Pivot on New Fuel EX
I'm interested in getting feedback from anyone who's had a chance to ride the new Trek Fuel EX with the Active Braking Pivot. Supposedly this setup allows the suspension to follow the terrain closer under braking as opposed to 'locking out' and causing wheel hop and skidding.
I suspect a positive side effect of this technology would be less braking bumps on our trails once all the manufacturers start adopting it?
jjrsds
11-29-2007, 09:59 PM
I'm interested in getting feedback from anyone who's had a chance to ride the new Trek Fuel EX with the Active Braking Pivot. Supposedly this setup allows the suspension to follow the terrain closer under braking as opposed to 'locking out' and causing wheel hop and skidding.
I suspect a positive side effect of this technology would be less braking bumps on our trails once all the manufacturers start adopting it?
Braking bumps are caused by riding too fast and LOCKING up the rear brakes at the last second to avoid riding off the trail. A suspension design won't correct this and not everyone is going to buy this product.
Specialized has been doing this for years. Trek has figured out how to place a pivot in the back without violating the patent that Specialized has on "this design". I have heard good things about Treks pivot in the rear but it is an alternative to an ideal situation (IMHO).
Shorty
11-29-2007, 10:20 PM
...without violating the patent that Specialized has on "this design".
I thought that patent had expired. Or is it next year?
A lot of companies use the Horst Link.
Ala Carte
11-29-2007, 10:53 PM
Trek's new design is as close to a Horst Link as they can get without having to pay specialized for it. IMO if they wanted the best rear end, they would put the pivot on the chainstay, but at $5 per bike, its not going to happen. That amount may seem small, but even small frame builders like Turner have went away from it. Turner says their new bikes ride just like their old design, I doubt it. There are advantages to all rear suspension designs, most might be more hype and marketing than anything else, but that is the name of the game. I've ridden an FSR rear end for years and love it, currently on the '07 Fuel Ex, single pivot, and love that too. I've found the best way to eliminate brake jack, is to not use your brakes. Let those tires roll! Braaap!
Granted, the fact that the suspension does not stay planted under braking is more likely design-related but wheel hop in itself is a recipe for lock-ups, which in turn cause skidding when the wheel returns to the ground.
I also ride an '07 (EX9) and I'm perplexed at where the almost $600 price increase on the '08 factored in, if in fact there wasn't a lot of innovation involved in the pivot...does magnesium really cost that much more for the suspension members? I doubt I'd feel the difference since I don't race.
Kingbozo
11-30-2007, 06:25 AM
I've never been a huge fan of Trek mountain bikes, but I think they may have hit one out of the park with this new design. It isn't just the ABP that is new, the "front" of the suspension is totally redesigned as well. The shock "floats" between two pivots. I gotta say, I think they look good too. I am also starting to hear good things about the new Remedy. Basically the same sort of design but with six inches of travel instead of the Fuel EX's 4.7.
Specialized gets money for every Horst Link bike sold in the states.
Ala Carte
11-30-2007, 09:42 AM
[quote=snowcat;256809
I also ride an '07 (EX9) and I'm perplexed at where the almost $600 price increase on the '08 factored in, if in fact there wasn't a lot of innovation involved in the pivot...quote]
Actually the new pivot is pretty innovative, if you ask me. Its a pretty cool design. I just built up the '08 Ex 9, and that bike rules. The whole rear end is different from '07. ABP pivot, new one piece rocker link, and new shock mounting called full floater. The Aluminum frame is super manipulated too. Come on down and check it out.
Paul Swenson
11-30-2007, 09:49 AM
[quote=snowcat;256809
I also ride an '07 (EX9) and I'm perplexed at where the almost $600 price increase on the '08 factored in, if in fact there wasn't a lot of innovation involved in the pivot...quote]
Actually the new pivot is pretty innovative, if you ask me. Its a pretty cool design. I just built up the '08 Ex 9, and that bike rules. The whole rear end is different from '07. ABP pivot, new one piece rocker link, and new shock mounting called full floater. The Aluminum frame is super manipulated too. Come on down and check it out.
Where's your shop?
soupboy
11-30-2007, 10:15 AM
Is this the new Biopace? I think the aversion to paying $5 per bike to Specialized is more about ego and the inability of the typical industry mavericks to check it at the door. There is simply no way a non-Horst Turner rides/brakes as well as Horst bike. Even if you rigged the former with a separate floating brake system you'd have added cost, weight and complexity.
Ala Carte
11-30-2007, 10:37 AM
[quote=Ala Carte;256861]
Where's your shop?
Penn, Bloomington.
Standard
11-30-2007, 10:39 AM
Trek didn't actually come up with this design... they licensed it from Dave Weagle, same guy who designed the DW-link that Iron Horse and a few other companies use for their bikes.
http://www.split-pivot.com/
Paul Swenson
11-30-2007, 10:43 AM
Penn, Bloomington.
A little too far to go at lunch today. I want to check it out some time. I sometimes find myself at that all you can eat Chinese buffet that's across the parking lot.
Kingbozo
11-30-2007, 10:51 AM
Trek didn't actually come up with this design... they licensed it from Dave Weagle, same guy who designed the DW-link that Iron Horse and a few other companies use for their bikes.
http://www.split-pivot.com/
Not true. They were developed independent of each other roughly at the same time. I expect there to be some litigation soon.
Recently, a press release came across my desk for a new suspension design from Dave Weagle, author of the DW-Link design, called Split Pivot. To quote the press-release, "The new system is called Split Pivot and features worldwide patent pending concentric dropout pivot technology never seen before." If you paid attention above, you will note that this is the same as Trek's new system.
I asked Trek, "So, what's the deal?" They told me Dave Weagle came by Trek to try and get them (Trek) to license Split Pivot several months ago. At that time, according to Trek, they (Trek) had been developing ABP for about a year. Neither party new of the other's design. Trek informed Weagle about their design and the two parties went their separate ways. Basically, according to Trek, Trek has a patent pending on ABP, and Weagle has a patent pending on Split Pivot. The two parties are waiting to see what the Patent and Trademark Office decides.
http://thisjustin.bicycling.com/2007/06/08_trek_fuel_ex.html
Standard
11-30-2007, 11:31 AM
Well it'll be interesting to see who wins this one.
Kingbozo
11-30-2007, 11:48 AM
Well it'll be interesting to see who wins this one.
No doubt.
Well it'll be interesting to see who wins this one.
DW should but the question is not straight forward about the two patents right now could be similar to the Special Ed and the Ellsworth issue.
Nickel
11-30-2007, 12:53 PM
Giant will win. :D
Standard
11-30-2007, 02:04 PM
DW should but the question is not straight forward about the two patents right now could be similar to the Special Ed and the Ellsworth issue.
Ellsworth was using some questionable wording to get around the Specialized patents, as well as a whole lot of false advertising on how their system performed.
The Trek and DW systems are almost identical, which will make it tough for each company to get a seperate patent. I think it will come down to an "I built it first" argument.. Trek may just throw money and lawyers at it, because I doubt they'll want to license the technology, and I'm sure they don't want to throw out all the marketing they've been doing for this design.
[quote=Paul Swenson;256865]
Penn, Bloomington.
That's where I ordered mine from. Tough being the lonely Trek guy in a Specialized territory :)
soupboy
11-30-2007, 04:45 PM
URT FTW!
Is this the new Biopace? I think the aversion to paying $5 per bike to Specialized is more about ego and the inability of the typical industry mavericks to check it at the door. There is simply no way a non-Horst Turner rides/brakes as well as Horst bike. Even if you rigged the former with a separate floating brake system you'd have added cost, weight and complexity.
I went to the Trek website and watched the videos. It sounds like the new fuels have a floating shock and floating brake caliper, making them almost as good as a horst link. Of course if you read in between the lines their engineer is basically saying the '07 Trek is rubbish and that they may some day have a design as good as the Specialized. When is that dang patent going to run out? That will be the tell tale to see who honestly thinks their design is the best.
URT FTW!
http://www.firstflightbikes.com/_borders/Mantra.JPG
soupboy
11-30-2007, 09:21 PM
Very cool but that's a lot of float though on some of the most highly stressed places on the frame. I'd be concerned about how long it will take for lateral loads to take their toll.
Seems like yet another solution seeking a problem. Swallow your pride and pay Special-Ed their 5 smackers until the patent expires. I can't imagine how much they're investing in R&D, tooling and marketing when they could just plagiarize and be equally successful by applying their fancy tube-sets and metal forming in the context of a high-zoot, big box Horst-link bike.
Sounds like their marketing equates to: "Hey, don't pay $2,000 for that Horst-link bike, pay $1,995 for this unproven non-Horst-link design that is theoretically almost as good as that Horst-link bike."
I went to the Trek website and watched the videos. It sounds like the new fuels have a floating shock and floating brake caliper, making them almost as good as a horst link. Of course if you read in between the lines their engineer is basically saying the '07 Trek is rubbish and that they may some day have a design as good as the Specialized. When is that dang patent going to run out? That will be the tell tale to see who honestly thinks their design is the best.
soupboy
11-30-2007, 09:24 PM
Nice! Now, make it a SS.
http://www.firstflightbikes.com/_borders/Mantra.JPG
Very cool but that's a lot of float though on some of the most highly stressed places on the frame. I'd be concerned about how long it will take for lateral loads to take their toll.
Seems like yet another solution seeking a problem. Swallow your pride and pay Special-Ed their 5 smackers until the patent expires. I can't imagine how much they're investing in R&D, tooling and marketing when they could just plagiarize and be equally successful by applying their fancy tube-sets and metal forming in the context of a high-zoot, big box Horst-link bike.
It's all in the marketing...that's what gets everyone forking out the insane dollars for these things. And let's face it, unless you race for a living the difference is lost on most of us. All I know is my non-ABP, non-floating-link '07 Trek is light-years ahead of anything I've ever ridden over the years. And, how lucky are we to be in the financial position to debate which $3300 bike is better ;)
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