Star Trib Letter: Bike paths in MPLS

[ebrandel]

http://www.startribune.com/563/story/1381660.html
Most interesting part of the letter:
I am not particularly concerned about hitting the mothers and dog owners, as they are adults who are exercising their right to make stupid decisions, and they are walking proof of Darwin's concept of the need to cull the herd. For the sake of the infants, elderly, dogs and hapless bikers, however, the city should start enforcing the law.

A little harsher than I would have put it, but very nice ;)

[batjerk]

Sometimes points need to be filed bluntly.

[analoguekid]

I greatly enjoyed that letter...on the other hand, I was making a right hand turn today, on a green light in my favor, the don't walk orange hand was flashing as I started to make my turn...about that moment a guy on a bike goes blasting in front of my car from my right...I never looked for him, never saw him, and damn nearly sent him to meet his maker, courtesy of the pavement...and he's flipping me off for it...always use caution and good sense when you're out weighed by 15 to 1...

[steef]

I greatly enjoyed that letter...on the other hand, I was making a right hand turn today, on a green light in my favor, the don't walk orange hand was flashing as I started to make my turn...about that moment a guy on a bike goes blasting in front of my car from my right...I never looked for him, never saw him, and damn nearly sent him to meet his maker, courtesy of the pavement...and he's flipping me off for it...always use caution and good sense when you're out weighed by 15 to 1...

Was he on the sidewalk? Or the road? Good sense (and The Law) usually tells bicyclists to be on the right side of the road. If I'm on the road andthere's a right hand turn lane for cars and I'm going straight, I'll be in the leftside of that lane, straddling the turn lane and the straight lane. Without more knowledge of this intersection, I can't say how I would most safely ride it. Obviously you thought he was riding recklessly. Maybe he wasn't.

[Ymmit]

Correct me if I'm wrong but don't pedestrians have a right to the paths just as bikers have a right to the road?

[Paul Swenson]

Correct me if I'm wrong but don't pedestrians have a right to the paths just as bikers have a right to the road?

Not if it's a designated bike path.

[ebrandel]

Correct me if I'm wrong but don't pedestrians have a right to the paths just as bikers have a right to the road?

No, as Paul pointed out.

Since you list Apple Valley as where you live, I'm not sure if you're familiar with this section of trail. It isn't that there is just a bike trail and no walking trail. There is a (much nicer, imo, closer to the creek and farther away from traffic) walking/running trail 20 feet from the biking trail, but people still use the biking trail to walk and run on. And it's everyone who does it, from dog walkers to serious runners. It's just strange. I think to the serious running crowd it's become a major fashion faux pas to run on the pedestrian paths. You're not a serious runner if you do that. Even if the trails are empty.

[syntaxjunkie]

I feel safer riding my bike on the streets of downtown Minneapolis than I do on the bike paths in the city.

Cars might outweigh me by a few tons, but the people operating them at least occasionally pay attention to where they're going. Not so with the vast majority of idiots, jerks, morons and nitwits mindlessly ambling around or blatantly ignoring the signs. Even the commuter paths leading into downtown are starting to get squirrelly. And the sad thing is that when someone gets hurt – and someone will – it'll always be the biker who gets the blame.

I don't expect the police to enforce what should be common sense on the part of people who use the paths. Theoretically, they've got more important things to do. Besides, this is America, where no one's responsible for anything and happiness is just a lawsuit away. Take your chances with cars on the roads.

[Paul Swenson]

No, as Paul pointed out.

It's just strange. I think to the serious running crowd it's become a major fashion faux pas to run on the pedestrian paths. You're not a serious runner if you do that. Even if the trails are empty.

I occasionally run on the bike paths. If the walking path is all torn up I'll move to the bike path. West River Parkway has terrible walking paths as does with Lake of the Isles.

The bike paths are marked for 10 MPH which IMO is painfully slow and the major reason I stick to the roads.

[kabbie_cache]

I feel your pain.

I used to do alot of path ridding at Phalen lake here in St Paul. It has gotten so bad there that I wont ride in the park anymore.

The main problem here though is not 1 or 2 people walking on the bike path. It is groups of 5 to 10 people all walking together. There is no way to get around that many people.

Before I stopped ridding at Phalen, I tried to educate people on the proper path to walk on. Yeah that didnt work. There are signs all over the park, they even have the path painted with bike symbols.

[Slimpee]

I occasionally run on the bike paths. If the walking path is all torn up I'll move to the bike path. West River Parkway has terrible walking paths as does with Lake of the Isles.

The bike paths are marked for 10 MPH which IMO is painfully slow and the major reason I stick to the roads.


Lake of the Isles is probably my favorite lake to run around BECAUSE the walking path is torn up and because it's down near the lake. It's nice to have all that space to run, you don't have to worry about bikers and cars, and running in the grass helps my knees and shins.

I really wish that the authorities would make it clear to people that if you're walking or running to use the path designated as such if there is one.

[Ymmit]

No, as Paul pointed out.

Since you list Apple Valley as where you live, I'm not sure if you're familiar with this section of trail. It isn't that there is just a bike trail and no walking trail. There is a (much nicer, imo, closer to the creek and farther away from traffic) walking/running trail 20 feet from the biking trail, but people still use the biking trail to walk and run on. And it's everyone who does it, from dog walkers to serious runners. It's just strange. I think to the serious running crowd it's become a major fashion faux pas to run on the pedestrian paths. You're not a serious runner if you do that. Even if the trails are empty.

You are correct I am unfamiliar with the Minneapolis paths and did not know they had seperate paths for bikers and walkers/runners. I stand corrected.

[bigwheel]

I think to the serious running crowd it's become a major fashion faux pas to run on the pedestrian paths. You're not a serious runner if you do that. Even if the trails are empty.

The same goes for serious bikers that will rather ride on the roads than on the bike paths. I understand not wanting to ride on the multi-use sidewalks that cross a driveway every 100 feet and are littered with ladies pushing strollers. But here in the burbs, we have some nice bike trails that go from city to city and have relatively few crossings/stops. An example is the trail that runs along 13 from Eagan through Lillydale, Mendota and most of the way to St. Paul. It is a wonderful trail. Still, it seems that many of the bikers would rather ride on State Highway 13, and yell at the cars for not moving over.

Should the city remove (or not build) those bikeways and just make the road shoulders bigger? How can we gain support for a network of bikeways when the bikers snub their noses at the bikeways once they are built?

I personally like the off-the-road bike trails - even if they are slightly slower than riding on the freeway. But then again, I don't consider myself a hard-core racer type. If the trip takes me a couple minutes more, it's no big deal. That's part of why I'm riding the bike rather than the car.

[RiverRat]

There are definitely places I ride on the road instead of the designated bike path. That is usually because the bike path is so lumpy from cracks and heaves that I'm afraid my teeth will fall out. Most notably in my neighborhood is St. Anthony Parkway (near the river) and along East River Road. There are also some sections along west river road a little farther south that I tend towards the road as well due to the rough nature of the path. If they were smooth and don't have a ton of ramps (which are never very smooth), I would use the bike path more often, and show a severe disregard for the 10 mph posted speed limit.

Oh yeah, and I'm considering getting an airhorn for when people are walking on the bike path. Especially when they are taking up the entire width of the path.

[Paul Swenson]

Lake of the Isles is probably my favorite lake to run around BECAUSE the walking path is torn up and because it's down near the lake. It's nice to have all that space to run, you don't have to worry about bikers and cars, and running in the grass helps my knees and shins.

I really wish that the authorities would make it clear to people that if you're walking or running to use the path designated as such if there is one.

Except when it's flooded which in the spring it often is. That's when I'm the bike path.

[xterrabuzz]

You should be grateful you even have bike paths, or even bike lanes for commuting. Live up in Duluth and have been hit once and have a close call about once daily. All we have is a crappy roads and NASCAR watching hicks. Just my .02.
Peace.

[ninjanick]

I frequent Minnehaha creek and the west river road (because I agree that the east side is rough) during the spring thaw and during these wet periods. I do find folks wrongly on the bike path to be annoying, however, I feel the 10 mph speed limit, which seams to be consistently marked, puts me more in the wrong then them should a collision occur. If I really wanted to go fast and not be frustrated by them, I would get up and go for an early morning ride. The strollers and crowds don’t come out till well past 10 on the weekends, plus temps are cooler. Now if someone would sell me a real roadie for cheap, I’d be set, and the wife would be happy because there wouldn’t be that extra 30-40 minutes worth of commute time to and from an off road trail.

[destrago]

Dave,
The flashing don't walk sign doesn't mean you can't enter the intersection, it's a warning that the light is not going to be green much longer. When it goes solid is when you're no longer supposed to enter the intersection. Was there a right turn lane, was he on a 'bike path' or on the road? People doing exactly what you did is one of the major reasons I don't even bother with the bike paths here in Eagan anymore: I would nearly get hit at every intersection by some lazy jackass with an engine in a rush to make that light.

Which brings us to Bob's point: unless I can stay on a bike trail for the better part of a mile or 2, I don't bother with it. If I have to drop into intersections and watch out for cars that park in the middle of the 'crosswalk' for the 'bike path' I don't bother. (Additionally: some of those bike paths are 8" above the road and the transition down and up feels more like a log crossing, and that on a road bike!) The only way to make people actually ride those paths is to get rid of that style of crossing. The only way I see to do that is to actually put bike lanes onto the main road. I'd LOVE it if they did that down here. But I'm not holding my breath. Even though I'm sure it's more expensive to have the separated path, I think most people would object to their tax dollars going to widen a road in such a way that they don't immediately and directly benefit from, and most people don't bike for transportation around here (Eagan).


-Tony

[Nita]

We were on the bike paths touring the lakes this weekend, and each lake has a separate walking and biking path, and some were also one-way, clearly defined. It also looked like alot of the walking paths were closer to the lakes, so pedestrians can't say its not as pleasant for the scenery. There is a 10 mph speed limit so you really shouldn't have a problem avoiding them...but there were walkers in the bike lanes walking in the wrong direction and people who would cross over the bike lanes without even looking up, then the strollers and dogs on long leashes, and yikes the umbrellas! Must be the weekend crowd.

[analoguekid]

In my case the bike was riding the bike/pedestrian path...I'm not saying he doesn't have a right to the space, my point is that I teach my 7 year old to stop if there's a chance that the big car may not see you or be able to stop...popping out into traffic from the path on the side of the road at 20 miles an hour is not part of my self preservation model...just as being a pedestrian poaching a bike trail is not neccessarily a safe bet...that's my point...don't get killed....

[BrightYellow]

Should the city remove (or not build) those bikeways and just make the road shoulders bigger? How can we gain support for a network of bikeways when the bikers snub their noses at the bikeways once they are built?

Well, I find the trails to be pretty dangerous when riding above the marked 10mph speed limit. I usually cruise along at 18-19mph and there are just too many people going A LOT slower than that to make it safe/enjoyable. I think the trails are great and there are quite a few users who benefit from them, I just don't think "serious biker's" should try and share the trail with the slower trail users.

I almost always ride the road, unless the trail is the only way to get from one area to another (like across the river on 494).

From http://www.sharetheroadmn.org/rules.html :

1). Bicyclists may ride on all Minnesota roads, except where restricted.
According to Minnesota law, bicycles have the right to operate on all Minnesota streets, roads and highways, except where restricted.
Bicyclists have all the same rights as all other vehicles. They may operate in a traffic lane, for example, except when a designated bike lane is present. Bicycles are not required to ride on shoulders or sidewalks or even on adjacent bike paths or trails—they are in fact discouraged from doing so (see point 2 below for more on this).
Bicyclists also have all the same responsibilities as drivers of all other vehicles. They must obey all traffic control signs and signals just as if they were driving motor vehicles.

2). Bicyclists should ride on the road, and must ride in the same direction as traffic.
It is illegal and unsafe for bicyclists to ride against (facing) traffic. Motorists do not expect, and therefore are often unable to see, bicyclists riding on the wrong side of the road.
Why are bicyclists encouraged to ride on the road, even when adjacent sidewalks and bike trails are available?
A 1996 study determined the likelihood of a bicycle accident by facility type. (This is the only major study that adjusts crash data for the number of miles bicyclists actually travel on these facilities.) The study found that riding on the road is not only safer—but much safer—than riding on these other types of facilities.

<TABLE borderColor=#666666 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=5 width="100%" bgColor=#ffe3a8 border=1><TBODY><TR bgColor=#4da736><TD colSpan=2>Bicycle Crashes per Million Kilometers Traveled</TD></TR><TR><TD>Street with bike lanes
Street with signed bike route (but no marked lanes)
Major street with no bike facilities
Minor street with no bike facilities
Multi-use trail
Off road/unpaved trail
Sidewalk
</TD><TD align=middle>26
32
41
59
88
282
1026</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Source: William E. Moritz, “Adult Bicyclists in the United States,” in Transportation Research Record 1636

Bicyclists are 25 times more likely to experience an accident when riding on a sidewalk than riding on a major street—even one that neither has a designated bike lane nor is designated as a bike route. And bicyclists are twice as likely to experience an accident on a multi-use trail than on an unmarked street.
Bicyclists are discouraged from riding on the sidewalk. Not only is there potential for a collision with a pedestrian. More importantly, motorists are not expecting a bicyclist, moving much more quickly than a pedestrian, to cross the street in a crosswalk. So, motorists often fail to detect bicyclists on sidewalks and strike the bicyclist in the crosswalk.
According to the concept of Effective Cycling developed by John Forester (http://www.johnforester.com/), “Cyclists fare best when they act and are treated as drivers of vehicles.” America’s leading bicycle education course, the League of American Bicyclists’ BikeEd (http://www.bikeleague.org/programs/education/), is based on this concept.

[MisterClaw]

From http://www.sharetheroadmn.org/rules.html :

1). They may operate in a traffic lane, for example, except when a designated bike lane is present.

I can't find any law the prohibits operating in a traffic lane when a bike lane is present.

This is mostly an issue where they've put the bike lane on the left side of a one-way road, something I disagree with. Anyone know the reason for why they put it on the left side?

[batjerk]

I can't find any law the prohibits operating in a traffic lane when a bike lane is present.

This is mostly an issue where they've put the bike lane on the left side of a one-way road, something I disagree with. Anyone know the reason for why they put it on the left side?
Well, I don't know for sure, but take a moment to think about it this way. A bike lane is something like three feet wide. Cars park on both sides of the road. The bike lane runs on the traffic lane side of the car. Motorists have a real bad habit of just swinging their doors open whenever the fancy strikes them, they won't even look for a bus first for crying out loud. If the bike lane were on the right hand side, you'd be forced into traffic everytime somone wanted to get out of the car, or hit the door. I think they put them on the left side to prevent bike/door crashes. On the down side, when the bike lane ends, you have to cut across three lanes of traffic...

[Shorty]

Below is part of an email response I received from Jon Gurban, MPRB Superintendent.

Misuse of our pathway system is a challenging issue for us. You would hope that it wasn't, as our guidelines for use are pretty straightforward and common sense. However, it's happening. We do enforce the correct usage of pathways to the extent our present resources allow.

We are looking at purchasing hand held computer linked ticketing machines which would allow our Park Agents to address this problem. Other ideas would be appreciated. As you mentioned we have plenty of signage. It is simply getting people to respect and adhere to the signage.

[BrightYellow]

I can't find any law the prohibits operating in a traffic lane when a bike lane is present.

This is mostly an issue where they've put the bike lane on the left side of a one-way road, something I disagree with. Anyone know the reason for why they put it on the left side?

I think this would be like the bike lane that runs down Summit Ave. It is on the left hand side of the parked cars, but basically an extra shoulder between the parked cars and the traffic lane. I think it is saying you should ride in the bike lane and not the traffic lane in cases like these - I'm not sure there is a law either.

I'm not sure where/why they would have a bike lane on the left hand side of a traffic lane - that doesn't make sense and wouldn't make me feel very comfortable.

East River road only has a single bike lane on the south-bound side of the road. I'm sure they don't expect you to ride in that when you are going north bound.

[BrightYellow]

As you mentioned we have plenty of signage. It is simply getting people to respect and adhere to the signage.

That sounds familar.

[ebrandel]

I can't find any law the prohibits operating in a traffic lane when a bike lane is present.

This is mostly an issue where they've put the bike lane on the left side of a one-way road, something I disagree with. Anyone know the reason for why they put it on the left side?

I've noticed this when I drive my wife to work from time to time (usually when I hit the snooze too much). She works at the Target Corp offices which are located at 11th and Nicollet. It is a one way street heading NW and the bike lane is on the right (Northern side of the street). On my way back home I head down 10th Street heading SE and the bike lane is on the same side of the street, now my left side, but still the Northern side of the street.

Maybe there's a method to the madness, but I sure can't figure it out.