Mankato race feedback

[pokey]

A bit of feedback on the Mankato race.
First, I have to say I really enjoy the Mankato race course and the event. It's worth the 2 hour drive for me and my son. The food bits available in the chalet were a nice touch and the registration was smooth and well organized.
I have one issue. Start waves. This issue has been brought up before but for whatever reason the concern is being ignored. PLEASE, organizers, consider using multiple start waves. It makes a fun course very frustrating when your race is repeatedly effected by mismatched rider speeds.
It's not only frustrating for the racer who is stuck behind other riders, its unnerving for younger or slower riders who are having to constantly adjust their riding to let other riders by.

[bigpeddler]

If racer's speeds are that different, it sounds to me like they need to "move up".

Nothing like older guys cherry picking the sport class :banghead:

[kerb]

I agree something should be done about the wave starts in the citizen races. The Mankato and Dirt Spanker races started with 2 waves, 29 and under went first and then 30 and over went second, only 1 minute behind the first wave. If the theory is the under 29 wave is the faster wave then please at least have 10-12 yr olds start in the last wave. In both races those of us in the 30+ wave caught the 10-12 yr olds shortly after entering the singletrack. This creates a long chain of faster riders who have to attempt to pass these little guys in the tight singletrack. Like Larry said this has to be unnerving for them to have a constant string of riders blowing past them and I have seen several passes that were downright dangerous.

If you're going to continue using two waves it would be nice every now and then if the 30+ wave started before the 29- wave so we aren't always the ones who have to pass all the slower riders from the first wave. Otherwise the multiple waves at Afton seemed to work well with the faster waves going first, i.e. 30-39, 20-29, etc. Then you could alternate the order of the faster age groups each race. If longer prologues could be incorporated I would prefer a mass start over the two waves start since the speed differences would take care of itself before getting to the singletrack.

[ctommyrun]

Age before beauty! In the citizen race yesterday a 16 y/o did win overall. May be keep the teens in the mix, but put 12 y/o and younger in last wave? I have no complaints though, the kids were still faster than me! The one kid that wasn't, graciously got out of the track for me as I passed. I'm still very pleased on how well the race was organized. Thanks, Tom

[RichZilla]

Great race, I always love going there. The extended length technical descents were awesome! It gave me (as more of a freeride-type) the chance to catch up to, or put a pretty nice gap on, some other riders. Most courses do not offer that much in that style.My only complaint would be that all the (free racer) food was gone by the time the Comp and Experts finished. If there is a limited amount of food to be available for the entire event, it could be divided into three portions. One for Citizen, one for Sport, and one for Comp/Expert. An orange or nanner would have been good after the race.I still think the multiple wave start is always an important issue also. How much extra work is it actually? I know it complicates things a little bit, but I think that a little bit of effort is acceptable to make the races more enjoyable for everyone. Is it a possible cost factor in that it costs the race director (of each individual race) more to have the multiple waves. I'm sure they've got different pricing options for everything. I would understand if some races could not afford to pay for that cost.

[bigpeddler]

Apparently you guys have never seen a WORS sport race??? 16-18, 19-21, 22-24, .......it is crazy (or it used to be)

[BigRing]

Apparently you guys have never seen a WORS sport race??? 16-18, 19-21, 22-24, .......it is crazy (or it used to be)

The breakdown in WORS is:
under 15
16-18
19-24
25-29
30-34
and so on to 55+

the waves usually start 19-29, 30-39, 40+, 18-under, singlespeed, clydes
and they usually mix it up with each group rotating to the back. sometimes it clogs up anyway. it is the one of the toughest aspects of course configuration, you have to work with what you have.

[Trevize1138]

I think there's some confusion about which waves are faster than others, too. For example, Devan Curran won 1st overall in Sport even though he was competing in the Single Speed class. The last few races they've finally started placing single speed riders in the 1st wave with 30-39 but at Steeplechase they stuck us in the last wave. I dunno if it was confusion or if they thought single speed riders were going to be slower.

Also, the 30-39 age group for Sport is very fiercely competitive and has a whole lot more and faster riders than the 20-29 age group. I used to think guys in the 20-29 age group would be faster but this year I've been proven wrong!

[pokey]

I think the 5 group split is a good compromise. No system is perfect and passing is part of mountain biking. But my 11 year old son would be the first to tell you he doesn't belong in the first group of a two wave start. If the only thing keeping multiple start waves from happening is making the decision to do so, then I would ask organizers to reconsider. It's hard or impossible to change a course to allow racers safe places to pass and ride to their ability. Multiple start waves appear to me a simple way to make issues less common.

[BigRing]

I think there's some confusion about which waves are faster than others, too. For example, Devan Curran won 1st overall in Sport even though he was competing in the Single Speed class. The last few races they've finally started placing single speed riders in the 1st wave with 30-39 but at Steeplechase they stuck us in the last wave. I dunno if it was confusion or if they thought single speed riders were going to be slower.

Also, the 30-39 age group for Sport is very fiercely competitive and has a whole lot more and faster riders than the 20-29 age group. I used to think guys in the 20-29 age group would be faster but this year I've been proven wrong!

There is a need for half or more of the SPORT MEN 30-39 to move up into the COMP class. Get some b@ll$ and quit baggin the sand.:banana:

[Heuy]

There is a need for half or more of the SPORT MEN 30-39 to move up into the COMP class. Get some b@ll$ and quit baggin the sand.:banana:

Yeah, we need to start doing like they did for Buck Hill Races. You win or podium in the overall consistently, move-up! Its can't be that much fun picking on us all of the time.

[jzipfel]

I remember a few years ago at Mankato they had the group run to the north, turn around a pine tree and then head back towards the first climb. This worked well as it was not a 100yd sprint to the hill. Also, the are those holes at the bottom of the first climb. Someone goes down every year and bunches things up.

I always try to hit Mankato and do the 12 hr too. Kids and work really put a damper on the racing the past few years, but my older son will be joining me next year.

I also wanted to give a big thumbs up to the course. I always like this course since you get the climbs, but it pays you back in spades with the down hill single track.

[oldreliable]

Mike here, thanks to MORC for hosting this forum--I am pleased that the rider feedback & dialogue is so constructive & is a great tool for race promoters.

Thanks to all who attended Bluff Riders' Charge, the ridership definitely made the event great!

As for wave starts, many great comments & suggestions. The start orders are crafted based on registration, & structured to insure prompt start times, increase accuracy in results & reduce overlap of classes. Ultimately, it is each rider against the course...Perhaps a system similar to XC skiing or marathon running where riders could 'self seed' in the staging area?

Keep the feedback coming on operations as well, we would like to keep the focus on great racing & improve other aspects of our product as well (eg, running out of refreshments/food). Rich, I appreciate your insight there & always great to see you name on the start list!

Keep the rubber side down,

Mike

[Trevize1138]

Yeah, we need to start doing like they did for Buck Hill Races. You win or podium in the overall consistently, move-up! Its can't be that much fun picking on us all of the time.

It'd be interesting to see some kind of more strict enforcement of this kind of thing. :) I can see how it'd be tough to let go of a series placement, though, especially if you look at the current point standings for Men's 30-39 Sport. It's a tight field in that top 10 and I don't think any of those guys wants to be the first to give that up and start from scratch in Comp!

The Lebanon TT was a pretty obvious example, though, as it seemed like 70% of the participants competed in 30-39 Men's Sport! The winner of that was faster than the #3 expert rider. Move up indeed!

[RichZilla]

I know this is getting a bit off-topic, but it is always an issue. I think at the MNSCS races we race under the USA Cycling rules. In those rules (I don't know how many of them actually apply to our series) it states that any rider placing in the top 5 in any five races of a season, MUST move up. That sounds pretty reasonable to me. Last year I raced in the Sport class, this year I race in the Comp class. Last year my finishes were: 19, 7, 7, 1, 10, 8, 3, & 3. The 1st place finish was a lucky deal because I didn't get caught up in a major backup at the start of the first singletrack. The two 3rd place finishes were only because it was very muddy, and I have a spare bike setup special just for racing in the mud. I was NOT a top 5 Sport racer then, and I'm probably not now, but I still race Comp. Mostly because my buddies said I HAD TO, OR ELSE! I'm glad I moved up. It's not that big of a deal. It should be more about testing yourself against the course, and not doing whatever it takes to get the highest finish possible. How low will you sink just to get a good placing? Citizen? I think many Sport guys could move up to Comp and do just fine. It sounds intimidating, but it's not. Just do it! I've already had two finishes in the top half of the field, and I only ride once a week other than the Buck Hill races and the MNSCS stuff. If you're putting in a serious effort to train, you're probably not a Sport racer. Quit sand baggin'. I think there's a few Comp guys that could beat quite a few Experts too...:D

[Vert]

Perhaps a system similar to XC skiing or marathon running where riders could 'self seed' in the staging area?


I actually think we do a pretty good job of "self seeding". When I look across the start line I typically see the consistent top-finishers in the front row. Otherwise, I like the call-up idea. It was a nice surprise at Steeplechase. It rewards hard work with a good start position (which also lets you finish your warm up closer to the start), gives riders some recognition and gives the guys on the bubble something to shoot for that is more tangible than seeing their name in the top ten in the series standings (that is, if the series standings ever get updated, but that's a topic for a different post).

Nice job on the Mankato race. The course was great, and the water on the climb was a lifesaver.

[caitlinbomber]

Thanks for the great spectators:crazy:! Some nice guy was fortunate enough to be standing near my bottles when I came around so the lucky guy got to hand them to me:banana:. I really appreciated the feed even though it came with spiders:sick:. So thanks to whoever that nice young man was:confused:.

[keeblermom]

:confused:Whom ever was in charge on the water station seemed to have forgotten their post because My kids and The Horner kids ( the Volenteers:)) brought those big Gatorade jugs down the hill and filled them and used someones wagon to get them back up there. This was happening while the Comp and Experts were going into the 3rd lap.
I have noticed this year that while Comp and Expert are racing everything is being put away and taken down. Last year I followed a sport rider. it was never like that. Maybe it has always been this way and i just never noticed because we did not stay so late. I just feel that Comp and Expert are not getting their fair share and are the ones who fight the heat and do the most laps.( food supplies are almost gone by the time they finish) This is very sad to see.:cryin:

[Trevize1138]

Either move up to Comp or get a single speed and flesh out Single Speed Sport ;).

I'd be curious about whether they'll have Single Speed Comp in future years. Seems like there are enough competitors for that now.

I know this is getting a bit off-topic, but it is always an issue. I think at the MNSCS races we race under the USA Cycling rules. In those rules (I don't know how many of them actually apply to our series) it states that any rider placing in the top 5 in any five races of a season, MUST move up. That sounds pretty reasonable to me. Last year I raced in the Sport class, this year I race in the Comp class. Last year my finishes were: 19, 7, 7, 1, 10, 8, 3, & 3. The 1st place finish was a lucky deal because I didn't get caught up in a major backup at the start of the first singletrack. The two 3rd place finishes were only because it was very muddy, and I have a spare bike setup special just for racing in the mud. I was NOT a top 5 Sport racer then, and I'm probably not now, but I still race Comp. Mostly because my buddies said I HAD TO, OR ELSE! I'm glad I moved up. It's not that big of a deal. It should be more about testing yourself against the course, and not doing whatever it takes to get the highest finish possible. How low will you sink just to get a good placing? Citizen? I think many Sport guys could move up to Comp and do just fine. It sounds intimidating, but it's not. Just do it! I've already had two finishes in the top half of the field, and I only ride once a week other than the Buck Hill races and the MNSCS stuff. If you're putting in a serious effort to train, you're probably not a Sport racer. Quit sand baggin'. I think there's a few Comp guys that could beat quite a few Experts too...:D

[motomofo]

I would love to see the Comp-Expert class get to go early. Let the sport and Citizen riders duke it out in the heat.:D

[Bjmoore1]

Consistent top 5'ers in any category (for a season) or those just looking for more of a challenge should move up. Matt Horner, Jake Richards, and Rich are great examples of guys that stepped it up this year...yeah, its harder, but they are also gaining a lot of fitness and confidence. No one that I have encountered in the series is going to chew your head off for a pass anyway. If they do, don't let them by!

[RichZilla]

Yeah, Matt Horner is a primo example of steppin' it up this year. Sport to Expert. Wow!