2008 Spring Cup ?? BUCK ??

[RedSquirrel]

Buck, not Salem in 08' please. It seems like a popular request.

2007 year: to all whom support and MORC for managing through the first well attended race, thank you.

[Matthew]

No offense to buck hill, but I would have to respectfully disagree.

[gopherhockey]

My guess is the hard-core racers like the hills but that we get a better turnout for the family and citizen type racers at Salem.

I wasn't there the whole time, but this year looked like a huge success.

Perhaps there are some ideas that could be incorporated into 08's race.

[jag]

Maybe the new Murphy will be a good place to move it???

[bigwheel]

Maybe the new Murphy will be a good place to move it???

The new murphy will be tighter single-track. Not good for racing because there won't be enough places for passing.

Heath, don't you get tired of Buck after racing there every Thursday?

[Shorty]

Maybe the new Murphy will be a good place to move it???

Three Rivers is planning races in August, but last I heard they will be a time trial format.
As Bob said, I don't think it would be a good Spring Cup location.

[RedSquirrel]

For some reason I don't get sick of Buck. Mtb races should have hills, especially the non-beginner courses.

Excellent point about family (kid) friendly course. I support that thought. Where ever it ends up...having a Salem type course option is a good thing for kids/beginners. Cheers.

[Tower]

Salem might not be the ticket for the Red Squirrl and Team Ricoh, but it is a great way to introduce new racers to the sport without giving them a hernia from hill climbs...

Hey Salem took me off my bike, full loss of points... One false move at Salem and your out of the medals...

Keep Salem, just add a few features to keep the roadies honest...

Oh yeah, don't ruin the primo trails by having races... For the most part trails get trashed and the tread gets widened from racer types... You know what I mean if you've ever done trail work after a race to repair the damage...

[MConsugar]

I wouldn't jetison Salem... It's a terrific/fast course, yes; however, as a "roadie", I found it to be a great course to "cut my teeth" on prior to jumping into other more "technical" MTB courses (i.e. "easy" enough to get all sorts of people out riding/racing- 160 in the SPORTS!). But I think, most importantly, it seems to be PERFECT for fan/family spectation and adds some welcome exposure to the riding/racing. If anything, ADD Buck Hill back, don't use it as a replacement race...

[Stonehenge]

One of the downsides at last years race and again not addressed for this years race, which I thought would have been done, is some double track or passing areas on the course. There are plenty of stretches this can be done. Not neccessarily by creating a parallel single track or true double track, thought would be ideal, but at the very least by simply weed whipping as close to the ground as possible. This will certainly help all racers! Those whom can/want to/ need to pass will have better opportunities and those whom are to be passed will not be giving up as much speed or time. Yeilding the track to a faster/ passing racer is in the rules but is not known by many racers none the less practiced.

It certainly would make racing a little safer and more fun especially for the less experienced racer in citizen and sport. It will also help the faster ridders to be more competetive with less anquish over not giving up speed/ time if being passed or sitting behind and not having places to pass.

Creating doulble track or passing tracks for the season would get used. This would not be a big trail build so less time and materials involved and would have nice bennefit. Weed whip at least, or even running a garden tiller would be great to make the lane. Then for short time block the main trail so the new path gets ridden in then open up both.

This is a big MORC fundraiser and IMO would increase the benefit much more than the effort by making these improvements (low dollars per foot of trail for these lanes compared to in the woods or bench cutting or rock gardens) Salem is a fast fun course and this should be the next improvement this year so it is in place and known about for next year.....turn out would be better ?????

[ryno lite]

Oh yeah, don't ruin the primo trails by having races... For the most part trails get trashed and the tread gets widened from racer types... You know what I mean if you've ever done trail work after a race to repair the damage...

I agree totally! Keep the real good singletrack trails for riding not racing. As said in earlier posts, most of our good trails just aren't good racing courses anyway because they are too tight or have too many obstacles.

I do understand why the big time racers might want more climbing though, Salem is pretty easy for the most part. Although, isn't most of the rest of the series pretty hard climbing? If so, a flatter course is a nice change to the series.

[ryno lite]

By the way, we love to hear the comments. Keep them coming. Hopefully we can incorporate a few of the comments and improve the race for next year!

[Stonehenge]

By the way, we love to hear the comments. Keep them coming. Hopefully we can incorporate a few of the comments and improve the race for next year!

Spring cup starts out year - in the past it has been very big at buck and imeadiatly after participation dropped. In part because it is local to ridders and with that alot of young and beginner types participated ( short travel and beging a season). Only to be blown away by the tough course and not to return to a race again - loss of repeat business.
Having an less intense course for the first race of the season at this state level seems good for racing.
Also I have hear comments over the years on other course before Buck- in the past was nice to start the year on less demanding course as conditioning is not all there yet. These were sport ridders so exception for expert and top comp class perhpaps.
Attracting more ridders is the game if the game of racing is to continue

[ryno lite]

Spring cup starts out year - in the past it has been very big at buck and imeadiatly after participation dropped. In part because it is local to ridders and with that alot of young and beginner types participated ( short travel and beging a season). Only to be blown away by the tough course and not to return to a race again - loss of repeat business.
Having an less intense course for the first race of the season at this state level seems good for racing.
Also I have hear comments over the years on other course before Buck- in the past was nice to start the year on less demanding course as conditioning is not all there yet. These were sport ridders so exception for expert and top comp class perhpaps.
Attracting more ridders is the game if the game of racing is to continue

I will agree with that. As a one race a year rider (Short and Fat at Cheq Fat Tire Race), I have no interest in the Buck courses, but I must admit, the course at Salem does interest me. I've ridden Buck a few times at different events in a non-race atmosphere and I liked the course just fine, but it did not appeal to me in a race environment. I struggled in some sections with no one around, I couldn't imagine it with tons of people around me.

I actually shouldn't even be commenting, I generally don't race and I have never ridden a Spring Cup event. I'll leave the racing to the racers and enjoy my nice leisurely rides around the local singletrack!

[transplant]

As a one race a year rider (Short and Fat at Cheq Fat Tire Race)

Uh, you did The 24 Hours of Afton last year, racer boy.:crazy2:

[Vert]

Maybe the way to find a balance is to have a preferred start for the more hard core racers? Base it on the results from the previous year's MNSCS series, or give everyone who completed at least 6 out of 10 races a preferred start. Hopefully that would help eliminate some of the pileups and traffic jams by having the faster, more experienced guys up front at the start. It would reward those core riders who make it to all the races and still allow those people trying it out for the first time to go for it on the same course. Just a thought.

[jag]

Thats a great idea Chris.
Call ups are always a good idea. They do that at the firecracker race.

[Danimal]

Mammoth would be great, but can you imagine how many would get lost. :)

[bigwheel]

By the way, we love to hear the comments. Keep them coming. Hopefully we can incorporate a few of the comments and improve the race for next year!

And maybe the enthusiasm will get us more help preparing the course and running the event.

[Heuy]

I think its cool that its different than the rest of the MNSCS series races.

Selfishly I wish that it was on a weekend that conflicts with a road race so that I could place better:p,

But the way it is seems to raise a lot of money for MORC.

[ibismojo2001]

Maybe the way to find a balance is to have a preferred start for the more hard core racers? Base it on the results from the previous year's MNSCS series, or give everyone who completed at least 6 out of 10 races a preferred start. Hopefully that would help eliminate some of the pileups and traffic jams by having the faster, more experienced guys up front at the start. It would reward those core riders who make it to all the races and still allow those people trying it out for the first time to go for it on the same course. Just a thought.

Those hard core guys are usually first to line up anyway plus isn't the prologue at Salem the same idea - weeding out the speed and groups before the start of the singletrack. I raced on Sunday and thought that it was a great event (even though I was geared wrong on the SS). however, I agree with another post that weed whacking along the trail in the open areas would have been very helpful. Any trail with a race is going to have passing issues. In fact it could be argued that there is more room to pass at Salem than other race venues. Anyway, it was great fun.:D

[Trevize1138]

Buck, not Salem in 08' please. It seems like a popular request.

2007 year: to all whom support and MORC for managing through the first well attended race, thank you.

Heath, you're an idiot and this is the stupidest idea you've ever come up with. That says a lot considering the first thing I said (you know, about you being an idiot?) :crazy:

I did kind of miss the abusive introduction to the season Buck normally serves up for the Spring Cup. But, I do think Salem is a great place for the event for the reasons others here pointed out. It is great to have a course not so intimidating for beginners and families. I even tried talking my dad into doing it this year because the course was mellow enough. :)

But, I would like to see Buck added back into the MNSCS series because it is a great race spot. Like someone else on here said don't replace either Buck or Salem, run them both! :banana:

[Trevize1138]

In fact it could be argued that there is more room to pass at Salem than other race venues. Anyway, it was great fun.:D

I'd second that. There were ample spots for passing compared to Buck. Buck's pretty good but Salem's better. The only thing making me hesitate passing was that whole idea of tearing out across fragile prairie grasses. :shocked: That's another point in favor of putting in some doubletrack in a few spots, I suppose.

Actually, many people pointed to the rock hop-up as a great spot for gaining a place or two. Perhaps that's the ticket? Rather than some boring doubletrack just start populating the trail with obstacles and ride-arounds in key passing spots? Make it so that you gain a few seconds taking the trail with the obstacle that way you add a new strategy element: to go faster you need off-road skillz ;).

[pokey]

I find Salem Hills very frustrating and truth be told, probably won't race there again. I am not an aggressive rider so I don't feel comfortable making a pass happen in a place that I have to force it and I find passing in the weeds difficult when I don't know what lurks there.
BUT.. I think it's an excellent addition to the series since it offers something different. My daughter did her first race ever this past weekend and she loved it. It is a fantastic "first time" course for kids and adults. If E.S.C. was at Buck, I might like it more, buy my daughter would not have been able to race there and would miss a great opportunity to become involved in the sport.
It's not for me, and thats just fine. Just as a course like Welch is not for everyone and that's fine, too.

[gopherhockey]

Rather than some boring doubletrack just start populating the trail with obstacles and ride-arounds in key passing spots?

Sure, now he's all about littering the trail with obstacles... ;)

I thought we were trimming the trail to build passing lanes this year. I wasn't on the trail so I didn't see.

Maybe more trimming can be done, and it can be done real close to the ground in key passing areas... maybe "passing zone" signs to let people know its ok to wreck the grass and the oak trees sprouting up.

[mara]

Warning: this is only hearsay.

My understanding is that Spring Cup moved to Salem Hills in 2006 at the suggestion of Buck Hill, who were not sure how the land sale and subsequent construction would affect the mountain bike race. The City of Inver Grove Heights generously offered to let MORC and Erik's hold the race there and was the only area anywhere near the metro to do so. If Buck Hill wanted back in the MNSCS series for 2008, it sounds like there would be a lot of support for adding a race there.

[gus man]

Buck or Salem. Either way it comes down to making each course apropriate to the intented class. I think that each venue has some work to do on course design. The real important thing is the running of it. I heard alot of complaints on the delayed start time. Wich is a direct result of volunteers or the lack there of.

[ibismojo2001]

If I recall Buck was moved because they were selling the north woods for more condos (that all we need) and I also thought there was insurance issues(???).

Also I believe the only issue on the delayed start time was the lack of registration forms. Someone had to go print more off. other than that I thought it was run quite well.

[RichZilla]

I understand both sides of the coin on this issue, but Salem is definitely my LEAST favorite race location of the year. Partly due to the piece of crap parking situation, but mainly due to the 'roadie-style' course. It's just not my style. The Metric Drop at Welch...now that's my style! That's where the off-road skilled peeps can make a little time up on the hill climbin' roadies. To each there own. They don't force us to go to every race, you only need six or whatever to have for your season points total. I definitely consider not going to Salem, but I figure, what the heck. The roadies will kick my butt, but at least I get to go riding and support the sport.:banghead: I'm guessing that Heath was thinking along the same lines, maybe.

Yo Heath, maybe next year we should just go hit up Afton for a good 'ol fashioned 10-lap beat down! Drag some sisters with too... heh heh heh

[RedSquirrel]

Buck or Salem. Either way it comes down to making each course apropriate to the intented class. I think that each venue has some work to do on course design.

Above is more of the creative response I expected. Yeah yeah yeah, trail support, volunteers, a plan are all part of it. There's a way to make harder places good for beginners too. Different routes etc.

Buck was my first mnscs race. It was my 65 year old Dad's and then 9 year old son's first race too. I like Buck, and I like steeper, anytime of the year. My opinion only I guess.

Everyone has their opinion (great!) and many sharing here, others not interested in all this who-haw. In hindsight, I expected to hear more from ALL levels of racers. The response here is good, the lack of response from some probally shows support in bringing new racers into the fold. Or perhaps not interested in other morc forum aspects.

As for the fun name calling, go-do trail work jabs, none-responsiveness of some, and especially anyone who is sport, comp, or expert saying keep it easy early on.........I have something special for you below......
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http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x147/hweisbro/dancing.gif (http://photobucket.com)

[gopherhockey]

I'm interested in the numbers for this race over the last few years. We had some Buck years that totally stunk for rider numbers.

Not that its all about the numbers.. but this benefits MORC and we rely on these key events to fun much of what we do. We are also as much focused on bringing people into the sport as we are holding a fun race... its EXTREMELY valuable to bring in new people. Did you see all the kids there? I thought thre were way more than normal. (I could be wrong)

It would be great to make everyone happy but I seriously doubt that is ever going to happen. It doesn't mean we can't get good suggestions and try implement them the following years though.

Lets try. Assume Salem was it in 08 and you didn't enjoy it this year - what suggestions would make it a viable course. We can't use Buck if they don't want us there and we can't add hills to Salem that aren't there. There has to be something other than just climbing that makes a good race. (realize that trails like Salem were not buit specifically for one race per year, the value is that its a different kind of trail in the metro.. )

Wouldn't the true sign of a good racer be one that can do well in all types of conditions and venues? (lobs in grenade...) Kind of like the different tracks NASCAR has - they aren't all super speedways. Rich, I liked your take on it... everyone has to have a least favorite, but why not make the best of it for a good cause. I like that...

Heath, I'm not asking for your poor dancing boy, I'm just trying to stir up conversation ;)

Too bad Battle Creek didn't have a little more race terrain - it has parking and some hills and could be made into a pretty flexible trail for all sorts. It has doubletrack for passing too...

[gopherhockey]

I also want to give a huge shout out to those who did put in the effort for Salem 07. I think talking about how to improve it is nice as long as we recognize those who took the time to make the event a success.

Not too bad an event for a bunch of trail builders you have to admit :p

[RedSquirrel]

I'm just trying to stir up conversation ;)

John, excact, my intention is to keep it an open forum with diverse opinions. I'll still go to Salem even if nothing changes. It was fun!! Thanks for all the hard work! Great place for kids no doubt. Don't assume anyone is a poor boy. Just trying to keep it fun with happy dancing boy. I think he won the lottery or something?

Rich, thanks bro, count me in on the Afton ordeal sometime anyway.

[incendiarySYS]

Let me start out by saying that I had a great time at salem last weekend and I really appreciate all the hard work that went into that event. I'm coming to this conversation after several of my sentiments have already been embraced.

I agree that to continue attracting new racers we need to have beginner courses at each venue that are challenging yet managable. That being said, it is easy to take a harder techincal venue and find an easy route for beginners than it is to take an easier techincal venue and find a harder route to appease skilled riders.

If I already missed this point please forgive me, but look how close the groups of riders were finishing at Salem. With no real climbs, descents, or difficult tech sections to spread them out they were able to stay on each other's a**es the whole way.

Rich brought up the Welch Mtn Race which is a great example of a location that caters to people of multiple skill levels. The metric drop provides an area that challenges good riders to push their skill limits a little.

I guess my vision of how to make the MNSCS series something that people try out, love, and keep returning to is this: How great would it be to go to a race as a beginner and be able to ride a managable course and then watch the experts ride a course that was well beyond your level and say "that's awesome, I want to keep racing/riding till I can manage that course!" That's just not a feeling you can get at salem.

[gopherhockey]

For whatever its worth, I did have a chance while sitting the MORC booth to hear a lot of conversation from riders leaving the course... especially the kids.

Man, those kids were excited! They were all super pumped about their day at Salem... at least those that I heard. Large families of young boys and girls all reliving their race moments with parents.

I think they are all not only potential future racers but also future mountain bikers and maybe even MORC leaders. I don't think the issues we are discussing here were noticed by any of the kids out there... I did hear a lot of riders saying they never race the ski trails but were happy to try Salem. Perhaps there is something good about the idea of getting people involved at an easier venue so that they might be eager to take it to the next level.

Having said that I do like the idea of a venue where kids can watch the experts ride and get even more excited. I'd hope they are just as excited about riding their bike as they would be about racing, however. (coming from a non-racer type, of course hehe)

I think we're on the right track at least...

[KleinCrazy]

Thanks for all the feedback on the Spring Cup this year everyone.

As the person in charge of course design and layout, all the input I can get from racers and others is highly encouraged.

Notes are being taken and will be included in the final breakdown of what we did well this year, what we could do better on.

Just so everyone knows, yes Salem has limitations.

However; they were the only location who stepped up and offered to host. Every other available trail system declined and thus without Inver Grove Heights and the support they provided, the Erik's Spring Cup would have been no more after the 2005 Race.

It seems that the major concerns from the upper level racers are limited EASY passing areas and Limited HARD Trail... now is it just me or?!?!?!?

Now I understand and agree that the trail had limited areas to pass, and other than the rock step up, NO technical features.

I also remember 3 miles of twisty singletrack in the north woods at Buck that had about 100 feet of passing area in it also.

We do have areas where we can utilize a small amount of existing doubletrack at Salem for the race, due to layout issues, use of this doubletrack would shorten lap lengths by close to 1/2 of a mile.

WE CAN NOT BUILD ADDITIONAL DOUBLETRACK THROUGH THE PROTECTED NATURAL PRAIRE AND HARDWOODS. i.e. no putting in an adjacent singletrack along side of the existing one. All trail built at Salem was done before they did all their plantings with the understanding that no more would be built.

And even without that in place, is 100 yards of doubletrack enough for passing on a flat? Were the areas of course on the athletic fields or the asphalt path not enough? Do we need to take out singletrack in the south fields and put in 100 yards of doubletrack? It can be done, but it would remove some very nice pieces of trail from the race course.

MY POINT OF VIEW!!!!!! *holds out salt shaker*

I design the course so that a good racer will be able to adapt how they ride to whatever the course provides. It is not the responsibility of the course designer to adapter the course to A rider, but to the Citizen through Expert Racers as a whole.

"Hey, there is little climbing and limited passing on this course, I am going to have to stick close to people in front of me, save my energy, and sprint pass when I can."

"I'm in front, I need to make sure that I don't let people hang on my tail and pass me in the open areas"

"hmmm, How fast can I take this corner at the bottom of the hill and still ride out of it?"

"Is the guy in front of me taking the rock every lap or is he going around it? If he goes around, can I be close enough and smooth enough over the rock to make a pass?"

Yes they need to design it so it works as a race course, and I thought I had done that. I am however a trail builder not a race course builder and I do not want to become one. I will take any advice that is offered and HELP that is offered in making Salem work with what it is, to be the best race course possible.

SO once again, Thank you for all the comments and constructive criticism, keep it coming and be assured that we are listening.

Passing areas were added this year from last. Maybe they were not long enough, maybe they needed signage to point out that they were passing areas, whatever.

Parking will always be an issue though we are working with a local employer with a huge surface lot on possible access for next year.

Anything else? Please let us know.

Just be happy the Spring Cup isn't held at Spirit Mountain as it was Snowing up there on Sunday:jumpy:

Thanks Again
James Ford
Salem Hills Trail Steward.

[stoneage]

This isn't all a course design problem. My biggest concern last year, when trying to pass slower riders, was the general lack of knowledge about trail etiquette. When someone comes up from behind and states their intention of passing, the other rider should try to yield in a timely manner. I had people blocking by accelerating after I stated my intentions. After finally getting by they would quickly disappear. A good rider will be able to pass on singletrack, but the other riders should be polite. This isn't as much of a problem in Expert.

[TML]

Race numbers for this year:
Best I could tell, we had 373 racers total, across all the classes. Haven't looked at numbers from previous years but I believe that this year was an increase. Definitely an increase in on-site registrations.

Course-
James and the rest of the volunteers, do a great job at working with what we have at Salem. There were more passing corridors put in when compared to last year. The surrounding vegetation was also much shorter than last year.

Salem is deceiving. For both racer and course designer. When I think about it, the real problem with passing areas at Salem is the speed at which the racers are going (incredibly fast). To pass another racer on a tight, narrow and slower course like Buck, a racer can squeeze through a wide spot in the trail in a matter of 20-40 feet worth of trail distance. Now put those same two racers on a course like Salem. Ratchet the speed up to about 16-20mph. Now, all of a sudden, the racer in the rear needs at least 100 ft of clear trail in order to execute the pass. The result is racers blowing through "passing areas" before they even know it.

Overcoming this will involve a little creativity on the part of both racers and course designers. Course designers can perhaps look at slower sections of the course and mow really good passing lanes in those areas. Racers, like James said, will need to remember key spots in the course and take advantage of them when they can.

Thanks for coming out everyone! Keep the input coming.

[Trevize1138]

Salem is deceiving. For both racer and course designer. When I think about it, the real problem with passing areas at Salem is the speed at which the racers are going (incredibly fast). To pass another racer on a tight, narrow and slower course like Buck, a racer can squeeze through a wide spot in the trail in a matter of 20-40 feet worth of trail distance. Now put those same two racers on a course like Salem. Ratchet the speed up to about 16-20mph. Now, all of a sudden, the racer in the rear needs at least 100 ft of clear trail in order to execute the pass. The result is racers blowing through "passing areas" before they even know it.

Ooh, that's a good point! One guy I passed actually started yelling at me "Hurry up, hurry up, hurry up!" because I'd underestimated the distance it would take to get around him. We were headed into tight trees riding two abreast faster than I'd anticipated.

I do think a lot of my hesitation in passing really was due to all my hours of trailwork :). I mean, ride off the trail? Ride in the grass? Contribute to widening the carefully crafted singletrack? Passing became a moral dilemma!

[stoneage]

Passing became a moral dilemma!
Wow, you are a tree hugger!!
When I'm in the throes of an adrenaline and endorphine stupor, the first thing I think about is the environment and trail sustainability.;)

[Trevize1138]

Wow, you are a tree hugger!!

I think it'd be more accurate to call me a "trail hugger" ;)

One big theme in this discussion is certainly roadies vs. MTBers. That's a theme Heath certainly brought up and I certainly know where he's coming from.

This is a different sport from road biking, a point I've always tried to drive home. The best rider should be someone who's got the legs and lungs to compete on the road but the technical skills to clear the most challenging obstacles.

Clearly, Salem favors legs and lungs over technical skill. But, I think it's wise to look at it as just the first in a 10 race series. I haven't ridden Steeplechase yet but I'd guess that race on June 3rd is going to be the polar opposite by providing lots of technical challenge.

Obviously, the perfect MTB race course would test both physical condition and technical skill equally. But, I think it'd be a pretty boring series if every trail were like that :) . Better to have some trails favor one type of rider over another otherwise why race on different trails at all?

Maybe this issue is becoming more critical now that more and more singletrack is being built? 10 years ago there wasn't much singletrack and MTB racing still was mostly just road racing on gravel. The sport's finally changing for the better and differentiating itself from road riding but I think the racing aspect of it is a bit slow to change to that.

[RedSquirrel]

One big theme in this discussion is certainly roadies vs. MTBers. That's a theme Heath certainly brought up and I certainly know where he's coming from.

Don't put words in my mouth. Not quite a big theme to me. I NEVER said roadies vs. mtb's. Road races have hills too ya know. Roadies ride bikes too.

Yes I could draft at Salem, but my point was hills are a preference for some MTB. Opinion only. Hills help race concerns brought up here by spreading people out. Hills cause problems for others not ready for hills and tech that usually comes along with hills.

Ok, carry on relitive creative ideas on satisfying everyone. Good luck all. Kbye.

[Stonehenge]

Just so everyone knows, yes Salem has limitations.
1) We do have areas where we can utilize a small amount of existing doubletrack at Salem for the race, due to layout issues, use of this doubletrack would shorten lap lengths by close to 1/2 of a mile.
2) WE CAN NOT BUILD ADDITIONAL DOUBLETRACK THROUGH THE PROTECTED NATURAL PRAIRE AND HARDWOODS. i.e. no putting in an adjacent singletrack along side of the existing one. All trail built at Salem was done before they did all their plantings with the understanding that no more would be built.
3) And even without that in place, is 100 yards of doubletrack enough for passing on a flat? Were the areas of course on the athletic fields or the asphalt path not enough? Do we need to take out singletrack in the south fields and put in 100 yards of doubletrack? It can be done, but it would remove some very nice pieces of trail from the race course.
MY POINT OF VIEW!!!!!! *holds out salt shaker*
I design the course so that a good racer will be able to .... Citizen through Expert Racers as a whole.
4) "Hey, there is little climbing and limited passing on this course, I am going to have to stick close to people in front of me, save my energy, and sprint pass when I can.". "I'm in front, I need to make sure that I don't let people hang on my tail and pass me in the open areas". "hmmm, How fast can I take this corner at the bottom of the hill and still ride out of it?".
"Is the guy in front of me taking the rock every lap or is he going around it? If he goes around, can I be close enough and smooth enough over the rock to make a pass?"
5)Yes they need to design it so it works as a race course, and I thought I had done that. I am however a trail builder not a race course builder and I do not want to become one. I will take any advice that is offered and HELP that is offered in making Salem work with what it is, to be the best race course possible.
6) Passing areas were added this year from last. Maybe they were not long enough, maybe they needed signage to point out that they were passing areas, whatever.
7) Parking will always be an issue though we are working with a local employer with a huge surface lot on possible access for next year.
Anything else? Please let us know.
Thanks Again
James Ford
Salem Hills Trail Steward.
James - I have shortened your quote above and numbered to address specific points made. It is obivious you are not a racer #5 but do think a little bit like one #4.
I liked the course better this year than last so the layout was improve IMO, especially passing by the hare left turn then into the woods then a hard left down 2 track to single track closer to the end of lap. NICE !
#1 - I would not shortening this course 1/2 mile to add double track for passing - not the point. The point is ( for this venue in particular) from a racer stand point is to have multiple passing place along the course, particularily in the fast meadows, and not just in one place like the tar and grass infield. #3, This makes me feel like I have to wait until the next lap to get by someone ( is not racing- is trail ridding). And yes 100 yards of double track is enough for passing weather on a flat or not and in many cases 50 feet or less can be plenty for a 1 or 2 person pass. Not quite so if you have a flow stopper at the beginning but if both the passer and passie are at speed, then a short lane or area is plenty - especially when ridders communicate. Example - Hey I need to get by you....at the next possible place to pass! The ridder ahead either picks up the pace or yeilds the trail as soon as is most benificial to both racers. And yes the vegitation got run over. But I think it is OK because it had been cut down to 6 to 8 inches or so #2. Bummer...that an area already run over by a large comercial mower or weed whipped many feet wide cannot have 30 to 50 feet of non vegitaition path through it adjacent to the main path....Its already cut way down and a similar path right next to it....should be able to necotioate that!!!! Adding say 4 -5 of these (at say 250 or so total feet) out in the fast prarie would be ideal and keep some of the precious vegitation from run over during a race or preride and during a season as ridders will pass out there too.
#6 Not sure where they were -not readily identifed as a passing place. Everything looked natural or whipped but still tall and cautious of what you cant see. Strategic placement is key for them to work best too.
#3 Here again - take out single track? NO. Put in double track? NO. I aggree it is nice single track, flowing,fast and fun in a meadow - its great for the landscape. But continuous without easment. Think About road for autos- passing lanes in the mountains or big hills or even flat areas with turn offs. Even 371 to brainered had passing lanes before they went 2 lanes. A SHORT go around is all I'm talking about here, not a long double track. Keep the Ditch Witch in the trailer. A few hundred feet in agregate at a number of strategic places.
#7 I am curioius why the school will not allow parking on the grass but does allow bikes to wear some of the grass down to dirt. Another 30 to 40 cars or more could fit adjacent to the race area. They would do much less if any damage to the grass. Good trick for any type of heavy grass use event is to leave the grass longer for the event then mow after. This causes less damage to the grass. Good to know a plan is underway for parking at business too.
#2 No need to add double track in the hardwoods there because they are short runs however passing just before would be a very benificial place. The plantings were done post trail but they still get mowed or whipped in some places which is not allowing them to grow as adornment but rather as ground cover. Negociation of bennefit to passing lanes in those areas could be strong and win win.
Some racers want to draft ( even in MTB ) or work together or pace off another ridder so passing isnt always about being in the lead.
By far the most fun I have racing is passing and being passed. Duking it out on the trail makes it racing and more interesting. It brings out stratagy...energy management/ use ect..... makes race more of a chess match than a hard training ride!
Perhaps a learning opportunity is present here for future projects and and additions to current trails.

[Tower]

Stop the madness... If you have some serious opinions show up next year to give those guys a hand...

Funny how eveybody has an opinion, but who shows when the work needs to get done... Not many racer's I bet...

Keep up the good work James and associates... Don't let the bleacher crowd drag you down...

[Oddbjorn]

This was a fun race. You pass when you can; that's just part of the game. Then pedal like mad. Strategy, people. We're all faster than some and slower than others.

Thanks to all the volunteers.

[dejorn]

This year I jumped up to Expert from Sport and held the back end of the Expert Class. It was almost like starting out in Comp with a 2 minute head start.