No Trespassing signs on Mammoth trail?

[Gingerdawg]

I rode Mammoth for the first time tonight. I did exactly what the trail guide said I shouldn't do and ran the trail for the first time without getting someone to show me the ropes. The Trail Guide doesn't lie, it can be a bit confusing, but I managed to ride from the Mcknight Park entrance, up to Lyman Blvd, without getting too lost. When I was in the area of the entrance to the Penninsula loop, I saw some no trespassing signs, and not knowing for sure if I was still in the park, I backtracked. I came out on the cul-de-sac at the end of Lyman blvd, and again saw more no trespassing signs. The trail in the area appeared to have been used recently, although not heavily.
Is this area still in the park and O.K. to ride? Was I more lost than I thought I was?
Does Mammoth trail wander through some private land, or is it all within City/county land?

Thanx,
Jim

[ninjanick]

When you head out on the pininsula loop what you want to do is not look at those signs, just kind of keep your head down and maybe whistel to your self. You have more of mammoth to see yet! I've run it all a couple of times, once you get a feel for it, you'll know exactly where to go. I ran the skull loop for the first time yesterday, its sweet!

[Gingerdawg]

So, there's no farmers with shotguns, dogs from hell or tazers around the next tree??
Ya, I'd say I missed a lot. I looked over the map better when I got home. Never saw any of the skull loop, and didn't do the washing machine loop either.

[bigwheel]

Folks, FYI, Mammoth is not a MORC trail. We don't know if it is on private or public land. We've been called out on it, and advised by our lawyers to pull the review off of the site. So, grab your copy of the trail review quickly, because I think it is going away real soon (if not already).

That's not to say you can't ride it or talk about it on the forums, but MORC can't give any impression that we officially endorse the trail or have anything to do with it.

Watch for an official post sort-of saying what I just said.

Bob S.

[ninjanick]

Right click save as, thanks Bob, makes perfrect sense.

[Gingerdawg]

Bummer, I hope my thread didn't stir up the issue.:embarass:

[ejonb]

Last year I can't count how many times I had to pull barriers, branches, head-level logs and other misc. road-blocks off the path. My ride time is usually between 6 and 8 in the morning, so I seem to see the mess first.

I actually e-mailed back and forth with somebody who seems to know a lot about Mammoth and his theory was it was kids screwing around. It made sense.

After my ride this morning, I have a new theory about who is messing with the Penninsula loop. Bird/Nature-lovers. ("stupid nature" - H.S.) Today there were no less than 20 obstacles placed on the trail. And, they've added official looking signs placed on stakes right in the middle of the trail. There are probably about 6 that say - "Trail closed - Wild Life Nesting Season" or something to that effect. They don't have a DNR or LIFECORE stamp, so my guess is its somebody unsanctioned.

ejonb

[bigwheel]

Bummer, I hope my thread didn't stir up the issue.:embarass:

Not at all. This is something we were supposed to have done several months ago.

We're just going to treat Mammoth like an urban ride. MORC doesn't have anything to do with it, but we have no control over where people ride on their own.

[rideharder]

so you guys are saying that it not a MORC trail however it is ok to ride/talk about it even though you dont know whos land it is? maybe the no tresspassing signs are put up by the land owner. yep, this sounds exactally like how MORC operates.

[gopherhockey]

so you guys are saying that it not a MORC trail however it is ok to ride/talk about it even though you dont know whos land it is? maybe the no tresspassing signs are put up by the land owner. yep, this sounds exactally like how MORC operates.

This is why I asked for an official statement on this issue before we pulled the review. People are going to twist it into whatever they want it to be if they don't have all the information on why this all came about. (including consulting our lawyer etc.)

You have to separate MORC as a riding community with the "official" MORC stance on things and the legal aspects as well as relationships with other land managers and the opportunities that can be had (or lost) etc.

[ebrandel]

so you guys are saying that it not a MORC trail however it is ok to ride/talk about it even though you dont know whos land it is? maybe the no tresspassing signs are put up by the land owner. yep, this sounds exactally like how MORC operates.

Would you prefer that MORC ban all users who dare to discuss it and delete any posts that reference it?

Groups have to balance a lot of different factors. Removing the page, if necessary and if advised to by their lawyers, seems to be the logical thing to do. But banning all discussion of the trails doesn't.

[RiverRat]

I don't want to start something/stir up something, but I believe for no tresspassing signs to be "legal", they need to be signed by the land owner/manager, and I think they are supposed to have contact info as well. Does anyone who has seen these signs know if they have this info on them? Does anyone know who the land owner/manager actually is? It is not good practice to assume who is putting up the signs and obstructions. It is better to find out for sure who the owner/manager is and talk to them to find out for sure if it is or isn't them. If their name is not posted on the signs, you should be able to get the info from the city records.

From what I hear, mammoth is a great trail, and I would love to get a chance to ride it in the near future, but it's not worth destroying the chances of gaining the land managers trust for future use to get one or two rides in now.

[bigwheel]

so you guys are saying that it not a MORC trail however it is ok to ride/talk about it even though you dont know whos land it is? maybe the no tresspassing signs are put up by the land owner. yep, this sounds exactally like how MORC operates.

I'm not sure what you are saying. If a land owner puts up a no tresspassing sign, it would seem to me that he doesn't want people on his land. If you decide to ignore it, or you think that someone else put the sign up, that's your decision.

Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong, but *every* MORC trail was built with the written permission of the land owner. Before cutting the first twig, there is typically 2-3 years of planning and permission getting.

As part of this agreement, MORC has to agree to meet the criteria of what the particular land manager asks. That includes where the trail will go, what trees we can/cannot touch, what features can/cannot be added, and an agreement to keep people out when the land manager request it. Otherwise, we've broken our end of the agreement, and we can get kicked out.

That is one of the reasons that we get anal about building cool jumps and dangerous features on MORC trails, and get so pissed off when people poach the trails or build their own trail sections.

This is also one of the reasons that renegate trails like Mammoth and The Farm can get away with riding over washing machines or cool log-of-death obstacles lined with chicken wire. There's no way that MORC would be able to get away with this, and if it happens on a MORC trail, it is MORC's responsibility to get rid of it.

If a bunch of guys make an agreement with a few land owners to don't ask, don't tell, then good for them. Those trails can be a hoot. However, please understand that part of the reason that MORC is able to get into so many places is that we are a responsible organization, that has to be up-front with everything and play by the rules. If you are on a MORC trail, you can be sure that you are allowed to be there.

[motomofo]

The way I understand it. If you are riding on a piece of property and you do not have permission to be there, you are trespassing, period. The land owner does not have to put up signs for the law to be enforced. I have been to court on this, back in my moto days.:)

[jenkemfr]

thats completely un-true private property must be posted...

[rideharder]

someone might want to notify mtbr.com about the situation being they have a review of the trail too. http://trails.mtbr.com/cat/united-states-trails/trails-minnesota/trail/PRD_379628_4557crx.aspx

the point from earlier was that trail on pvt prop or not a lot of people think that they have a right to use trail that they find and that is the attitude that some have here. harm or not there is legal ramification for riding on land that isnt yours or have permission to be on. i think that if morc doesnt recognise this as a trail it should stay out of the forms just like all the DJs around here and such.

[Shorty]

yep, this sounds exactally like how MORC operates.

Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Nice cast.

[gopherhockey]

someone might want to notify mtbr.com about the situation being they have a review of the trail too.

I'll bite.

Is mtbr a non-profit mountain bike advocacy group and IMBA affiliate? Do they have land managers (with oodles of acres in their pocket waiting to be used for nice singletrack) asking them why we're promoting unofficial trails?

For the record I was not completely for removing the review. I wanted MORC to have a complete listing of ALL trails in Minnesota and I don't like the path it puts us on. If a trail is questionable, I'd rather work to make it legal vs. removing it. (or add a disclaimer etc.) Thats not up to me though, and not even entirely up to MORC if those in charge don't want it to be that way. I did as I was told and trust our legal advisors and also my fellow board members.

I do understand the issues and I don't label MORC one way or another based on this one decision. We do a lot of things that many probably don't agree with but I think in the end they are all in the organizations best interest. If not, we need people to come to the meetings and speak up or run for the board to make changes... its easy to disagree in the forums, but its another thing to be put in a position of resposibility and even be in line for a law suit if one were to happen.

Again, I do think we should have communicated this better before removing the review.

I might also add that this wasn't done to try upset the guys who work so hard over there on the trails. We even contacted a few of the Mammoth crew asking their opinions about this and it seems most were just fine having it removed. (some didn't like it being posted in the first place) They can correct me if I'm wrong...

[DT5150]

I too rode Mammoth last night. I have been ignoring the No Trespassing signs since last summer with no problems. I did the same last night. I came barreling down the downhill section of the Peninsula Loop that brings you out on to the peninsula itself when I had to slam on the brakes to stop before hitting several large branches laying on the trail and a "Trail Closed; No Trespassing; Wildlife Nesting Area" sign behind the branches. Assuming that this was privately owned, why would the landowner put the sign up so far into this trail? And in the middle of the trail on a downslope.

When the initial No Trespassing signs popped up last summer, I stopped in at Chaska City Hall to see the official map and determine who owns the lands that Mammoth is on. The city planner that I talked to showed me the map and said that it is all on city property, including the peninsula, execpt for one very small portion of land that juts out from the Lifecore property area. It is a small corner of their property that sticks into the peninsula area that us riders probably cross through for less than 100 feet I'd guess. This is about where I saw that "Wildlife Nesting Area" sign. If this was Lifecore's small portion of property, why post a sign like that? It doesn't add up to me.

Any thoughts?

[ninjanick]

Debate about the trail review aside. So I have been on the peninsula as of late and I follow the whole wildlife nesting thing because I did see the pole with the nesting box on the top of it and some big arse bird in their. So to me that all kind of adds up. So, if I'm strictly following imba guide lines I ought not disturb wildlife, right? So am I disturbing the birds by riding by? Who ever is putting up the signs thinks so. As well I'm already breaking an IMBA rule by riding a trail that I'm not absolutely sure I'm allowed to legally, right? I should pick and choose which rules I want to follow? I guess :-) And while we're at it, who put the bird box up anyhow and why so close to the trail, is it really that close? Who else noticed the bird box on the pole? What's the consensus, steer clear of the birds till the growth thickens up, or ride on quietly?

[The Goat Killer]

Folks, FYI, Mammoth is not a MORC trail. We don't know if it is on private or public land. We've been called out on it, and advised by our lawyers to pull the review off of the site. So, grab your copy of the trail review quickly, because I think it is going away real soon (if not already).

That's not to say you can't ride it or talk about it on the forums, but MORC can't give any impression that we officially endorse the trail or have anything to do with it.

Watch for an official post sort-of saying what I just said.

Bob S.

Lawyers & mountain bikes? Think I'll stick to being a roadie from now on. :etard: Besides, when gas goes to $4 gal,,,,,,,,,,,,well :jumpy:

[Gingerdawg]

I too rode Mammoth last night. I have been ignoring the No Trespassing signs since last summer with no problems. I did the same last night. I came barreling down the downhill section of the Peninsula Loop that brings you out on to the peninsula itself when I had to slam on the brakes to stop before hitting several large branches laying on the trail and a "Trail Closed; No Trespassing; Wildlife Nesting Area" sign behind the branches. Assuming that this was privately owned, why would the landowner put the sign up so far into this trail? And in the middle of the trail on a downslope.

When the initial No Trespassing signs popped up last summer, I stopped in at Chaska City Hall to see the official map and determine who owns the lands that Mammoth is on. The city planner that I talked to showed me the map and said that it is all on city property, including the peninsula, execpt for one very small portion of land that juts out from the Lifecore property area. It is a small corner of their property that sticks into the peninsula area that us riders probably cross through for less than 100 feet I'd guess. This is about where I saw that "Wildlife Nesting Area" sign. If this was Lifecore's small portion of property, why post a sign like that? It doesn't add up to me.

Any thoughts?

Is the penninsula loop the only area of the trail that has been affected by the obstacles and rouge no trespassing signs popping up? Has there been any logs or branches in the trail or other junk in any of the other loops of the trail?


When you talked to the City Planner, did he indicate that all of the skull loop is within city property, too?

[iceskier]

The big arse birds are Osprey and they are nesting. In the spring it is usually a good idea to skip Peninsula. I have been divebombed before....

[DT5150]

Is the penninsula loop the only area of the trail that has been affected by the obstacles and rouge no trespassing signs popping up? Has there been any logs or branches in the trail or other junk in any of the other loops of the trail?


When you talked to the City Planner, did he indicate that all of the skull loop is within city property, too?


The peninsula loop is the only area affected by no trespassing signs, at least in the last two years that I've been riding Mammoth. This is first time I've seen branches that were placed in the trail to impede traffic. Otherwise, the "washing machine" loop has a washing machine and a few other "junk" items out there intended to be ridden over.

When I spoke with the City Planner last summer, I mainly asked about the peninsula area. I believe the skull loop is all city owned too but I honestly can't recall very well the answer to this question.

I guess I'll probably skip the peninsula for a while. At least until spring is over. It can't hurt to give the osprey some space. The trail will still be there after nesting season.

[The Goat Killer]

About "No Trespassing" signs.

If they ain't signed, they don't mean nothing. :D Also, they are required every "X" amount of feet around the property.

[nigel]

About "No Trespassing" signs.

If they ain't signed, they don't mean nothing. :D Also, they are required every "X" amount of feet around the property.

I guess I dont understand this "signing" thing, but I would venture to say that if someone puts them up on their land they dont want people on it. Signed or not out of repsect I would hope people would obey them. Guess not.

[The Goat Killer]

They must be signed and dated by the property owner. Otherwise they mean jack.

[Shorty]

Otherwise they mean jack.

Unofficial trails don't have much validity either.

[undsioux7]

I guess I dont understand this "signing" thing, but I would venture to say that if someone puts them up on their land they dont want people on it. Signed or not out of repsect I would hope people would obey them. Guess not.

Those "signs" may actually be on public land and as "unofficial" as the trail itself. But since its not an official trail our discussion about it here doesn't really mean jack.

It is what it is. If you don't feel "right" about riding Mammoth, don't, otherwise enjoy yourself and be thankful you were able to ride it at least once cause it could be gone tommorrow just like the Farm.

Thats just the nature of a trail like this. Arguing about its "legality" on here is just dumb.

I swear, every spring I blow a gasket reading these threads about people riding wet trails and then trying to defend it, or about riding an "unofficial" trail etc.... :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[undsioux7]

Unofficial trails don't have much validity either.

Yeah, as much validity as discussing them on MORC's site. ;)

[gopherhockey]

It seems like we're not getting much accomplished with this discussion. I don't want this to turn into something that pulls bikers apart instead of uniting us.

If it is a concern, I'd suggest that someone from the mammoth crew do some research. It seems to me a while back someone did, and they even spoke to the police in the area. Maybe one would like to comment.

If MORC were asked to become more formally involved in matters such as this I have no doubt we would. For now we haven't so all we can do is sit on the sidelines and speculate along with the rest.

[Shorty]

Yeah, as much validity as discussing them on MORC's site. ;)

Yup.

Which is why I think the forum that is set up to discuss Mammoth should be removed just like the trail review.

[ninjanick]

The big arse birds are Osprey and they are nesting. In the spring it is usually a good idea to skip Peninsula. I have been divebombed before....

I would consider Gregg's comment to be wothwhile, an acomplishment if you will. I'd prefer not to get divebombed by the big arse birds, so I too plan to steer clear for awhile. Any thoughts on when the little ones should be all good and moma won't give a rip if I pass by? The rest of the thread, yea, internet gripe.

[Don Youngdahl]

About "No Trespassing" signs.

.................. Also, they are required every "X" amount of feet around the property.

Several years ago that provision was changed, to require just signs on the corners of the property, and on roads or trails entering the property.

[The Goat Killer]

Those "signs" may actually be on public land and as "unofficial" as the trail itself. But since its not an official trail our discussion about it here doesn't really mean jack.

It is what it is. If you don't feel "right" about riding Mammoth, don't, otherwise enjoy yourself and be thankful you were able to ride it at least once cause it could be gone tommorrow just like the Farm.

Thats just the nature of a trail like this. Arguing about its "legality" on here is just dumb.

I swear, every spring I blow a gasket reading these threads about people riding wet trails and then trying to defend it, or about riding an "unofficial" trail etc.... :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

That's not a very good Morc'ish attitude. :jumpy:

[ChaskaBKR@theFarm]

ride and tend to your "home trail" and leave us to ours...mammoth doesnt need to be exploited like the farm ended up being. morc doesnt need to assist with mammoth either, the farm crew obviuously did it right, now they brush thier skills upon mammoth. ride with someone who knows the trails and try not to piss landowners off...thanx

oh and i wouldnt mind the trial review and forum to be lifted either...sounds like a perfect solution to me...

then none of you have a place to bicker. go ride and enjoy while we still can.

p.s. why are you afraid of someone telling you not to ride ur bike on the trail? you have a F@#!$&N geared bike and your worried about gettings caught, by someone on foot, in the middle of the woods? they're called pedals....

[gopherhockey]

p.s. why are you afraid of someone telling you not to ride ur bike on the trail? you have a F@#!$&N geared bike and your worried about gettings caught, by someone on foot, in the middle of the woods? they're called pedals....

Not sure if I follow you here. *IF* it was a real no-trespassing sign it would be a really selfish and ignorant thing to do to ride on the trail. Its why mountain bikers have to fight bad reputations...

I'm assuming you aren't saying ride it regardless because you can outrun anyone on pedals. That would be the dumbest thing I've read all year on the forums. From what I know the farm crew does a pretty good job of re-routing when they find they are on actual private land where someone actually cares.

[ChaskaBKR@theFarm]

im sorry if someone finds that attitude funny, im young and i will if the opportunity arises. those signs arent legit, my sister works for the city of chaska. I personally have seen topo maps. the farm :( and mammoth are in my opinion the best 2 trails in the cities. i just find it funny that people are so damn worried about those signs. they landowners noticed they have trail close to thier property, then they post signs to cover their a$$ (legally). they re-routed where necessary last year to deal with private land owners. i'll ride the trail, and all of it, until another highway comes through or condos go up...

this isnt a morc trail...why so much drama

:etard:

[bigwheel]

Do your topo maps show who is the owner of the land? Mine don't. Usually, land owners have a pretty good idea where their property boundaries are. If you KNOW that the land owner is putting signs on public property, then maybe you should notify the city about it.

The drama is:
1: People that ride on property without permission make it difficult for those of us that try to get approval for legitimate trails that will get used by thousands of mountain bikers. It's that 1% of the people that screw it up for everyone else.
2: It sounds like you are advertising on the MORC forums, your intentions for blatantly tresspassing on someone's property and ignoring their signs. If you want to ride in someone's backyard against their wishes, please don't whoop it up on MORC web site. Duh! Land owners and managers visit this site when deciding whether or not to give MORC permission to hack up their park. We don't need this kind of publicity.

My hope/understanding is that Mammoth falls into the gray area, where it uses property that the land owners allow, but that there is no committment to a permanent trail. From what I've heard, the Farm crew has been pretty good about rerouting around areas where the land owner objects. But if you decide to go out on your own and piss off the neighbors, you may find that you've screwed it up for the Farm crew, in addition to everyone else.

[ChaskaBKR@theFarm]

its not en established morc trail so why does it matter? ur talking about legitimate trails right? well mammoth isnt one, so stay out at leb. it was a nice hidden trail for those who know the area and respect it and kudos to the farm crew, they mentored me...and i cant thank them enough. but i also know that trail and most of chaska like the back of my hand.

p.s. i do know two of the landowners (family friends) where there has been signs posted and some confusion before so i dont have any problems with them, nor have i ever seen one single person try to enforce any of those "intimidating" signs. they need to be claimed and dated...go ride at your own risk if u find the need to, but find a guide first!!!! i'll keep riding mammoth as long as its there...:etard:

so basically just stay of the bird nest peninsula till all the little ones start flying and.....
ur right, if u dont know whos land ur riding on, dont ride there. lucky for me i dont have that problem with my hometown trail....keep riding leb. buddy, its just one less person on my loop.

oh and about me "advertising"....mammoth doesnt need to be adverstised...lose the forum and trail guide and leave us to whats left of our two (now one) beautifully laid out trails.

[BridgeR]

I would consider Gregg's comment to be wothwhile, an acomplishment if you will. I'd prefer not to get divebombed by the big arse birds, so I too plan to steer clear for awhile. Any thoughts on when the little ones should be all good and moma won't give a rip if I pass by? The rest of the thread, yea, internet gripe.

I'm not sure about the length of time they will be around, but it's also a good idea to keep your eyes on the trail itself... woodcock tend to put their nests right in the middle of the trail in the ground. And those little suckers really blend in. Why they pick trails, I don't know. We don't even ride in our woods up north on the atv trails for this reason.

Sorry for the interruption... you can go back to yelling at each other.

[bikeoutback]

its not en established morc trail so why does it matter? ur talking about legitimate trails right? well mammoth isnt one, so stay out at leb. it was a nice hidden trail for those who know the area and respect it and kudos to the farm crew, they mentored me...and i cant thank them enough. but i also know that trail and most of chaska like the back of my hand.


I at one point thought maybe I'd go try Mammoth out at some point this summer once I was a better rider, might be interesting. However if everyone on the Farm crew has this mentality (which I'm doubting is the case) then so be it I'll stay on my "home" trail and be happy with what I've got, at least I feel welcome to ride the other twin cities trails.

[gopherhockey]

I have respect for the farm crew and what they accomplish.. its no IMBA trail, but many of us think that its a good thing to have trails that don't always conform to the standards that land managers would require. I have always said that if I owned my own land and could do with it what I want, I'd probably do a lot of things differet than we do with MORC trails.

That being said, the one thing that drives me crazy is the stay-off-our-trails attitude. I don't think everyone feels that way and I know some who have been more than willing to lead group rides so that other can enjoy the trails out there... but in general I can't respect the stay off our trails and stay on your own way of thinking. (This goes for MORC trails as well) Its the stereotypical selfish mountain biker attitude that gets us all nowhere.

I have seen some of these same individuals who would rather keep mammoth to themselves whooping it up at Leb quite often... and they are always welcome there as much as anyone else. (ok maybe not as much as our loyal trail workers, but thats another story hehe) I would only want the same feeling in return.

There is no reason that a trail like Mammoth can't continue to be something positive for the riding scene in our area even if it isn't recognized etc. The sad part is that without a trail review, its going to be out of sight out of mind. That might make some happy, but is a real shame for those who might enjoy the trail.

[ChaskaBKR@theFarm]

im confused why an unofficial trail get so much concern over no trespassing signs. so i guess go worry ur A$$ off and blog it up... people dont need to be so political with things. just go out and ride... im done with my two cents. some people have too much time and too much to worry about....:etard:

its also annoying when people un-familiar with the trails collide with me and almost put me in a lake

~"the stereotypical selfish biker"

[gopherhockey]

~"the stereotypical selfish biker"

;)

Many feel we overanalyze a lot of things here in the MORC forums... its all a part of trying to better the entire biking community. Its not for everyone and turns some off, but hopefully they will at least understand all the same. Its the nature of the game in any forums really...

I do respect you for posting up your opinions. Its a tough crowd here... I hope you won't stop.

[ChaskaBKR@theFarm]

just dont want my favorite (and last) hometown trail exploited like some other trails when its not even a morc trail....

not gonna lie...im going through some farm withdrawl too....:cryin:

[hendu]

I never would have found Mammoth last year unless there was a trail review and map on MORC. I love the place. It would be nice if there was a web site that would list all of the trails around the state, regardless of whether they are santioned, or not. Just put a big disclaimer on the non MORC trails. I don't see a huge liability there. We need more reviews, not less.

Think of this web site as a travel guide. I hunt a lot in ND. There are tons of hunting forums that review areas with private land. They just say ask the owner for permission and be respectful. This web site can't be held responsible for an individual rider who might be trespassing.

[gopherhockey]

I never would have found Mammoth last year unless there was a trail review and map on MORC. I love the place. It would be nice if there was a web site that would list all of the trails around the state, regardless of whether they are santioned, or not. Just put a big disclaimer on the non MORC trails. I don't see a huge liability there. We need more reviews, not less.



This is what I have been afraid of. If MORC doesn't keep a complete listing of all trails (official and not) someone else will. People may eventually want to go where the most complete information is. I originally started these forums as mnmtb.com and merged into MORC. As such a lot of things became more formal which has been both good and bad.

I'm working to build a forums like this for the front range area in Denver. I don't have plans to affiliate them with an IMBA club just yet until I get the lay of the land out there and get a handle on the politics etc.

[Wolfchimp]

I have been reading everyone's comments. Enough pissing and moaning. Most of the FARM guys, and I, have liked the increase in traffic on the trails out here during the last year. They ride better than ever now but we don't like to deal with the political bullsh*t. The trails are there and we don't want them to go anywhere so the FARM guys chose to take a low profile. Personally, I am glad to see the trail review gone. The last thing I will say is if you want to ride Mammoth just ask someone that knows the trails to show you around. Most of us are more than willing to show new riders the way. Just my $.02

[Shorty]

You don't need to ban all forum discussion of Mammoth, but to have a trail review outside the forums, and an official forum set up just for Mammoth discussions is more than an unofficial trail should have IMO.

If the FARM crew wants a trail review, a map, or anything else they can post it just like any other member of these forums (simply put it in the Metro Trails forum). The difference is that MORC as an organization isn't officially producing any of it.

[edit] I just realized the forums have been changed... nevermind the above comments.

[gopherhockey]

I'm counting on a non-morc affiliated review will likely show up in a discussion thread. That should help those who want to locate the trail and get info.

[hendu]

I'm one for simplicity. After a while, it might be challenging to find a trail review in the dicussion forum. Things can get buried. How about MORC Trail Review section & then underneath a non affiliated trail review section that people can upload pics & maps? The MORC site is great. Life is too short to be worried about the politically correct/sue everybody segment of socitey. You can never make them happy.

[Shorty]

Life is too short to be worried about the politically correct/sue everybody segment of socitey.

Easy to say if you aren't one of the people being sued.

There is always the search function, or maybe a sticky?

[MUni]

Google cache, save a copy of this page while you can.
(http://tinyurl.com/2wa9ep)

[JFehren]

I'm more than happy to show anyone who wants a tour of the trail. I wouldn't even try it without a guide as it is even more convoluted than The Farm if you're familiar with that. Send me a PM or post and I'll set something up. I see MORC's position on this and think it's pretty much in line with those who made the trail in the few conversations I have had with them. I have been on about half the metro trails written in here and still find the Farm (RIP) and Mamoth to be the most challenging and fun trails around. Kudo's again to those who made this trail and continue to maintain and even expand it. I'll respect the no tresspassing signs despite my doubts as to the need for them. I can live without that section for a few months and pick up again in the late summer or fall. Happy riding.

Jerod

Edit: Holy hannah I saw that Google cache map of this trail and that's amazing. It's as accurate as you can get but it would be tough to follow when you're riding. Get out and ride this gem.

[The Goat Killer]

The FARM ruled. I like the ol pre-morc trails way better. :etard:

[gopherhockey]

I'm more than happy to show anyone who wants a tour of the trail. I wouldn't even try it without a guide as it is even more convoluted than The Farm if you're familiar with that.

Thanks for that offer! I honestly feel it is best to have a guide show you those trails. There are a lot of cool Farm crew and Mammoth regulars that would be willing to show you around. I would guess there will be group rides as well at some point like last year. Take them up on it...

The FARM ruled. I like the ol pre-morc trails way better. :etard:

Yea, I miss Leb when it was 2 miles of wasted class 5 gravel. :eyeroll: ;)

[The Goat Killer]

We want to be free! We want to be free to do what we want to do! We want to be free to ride. And we want to be free to ride our machines without being hassled by The Man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man). And we want to get loaded. And we want to have a good time! And that’s what we’re gonna do. We’re gonna have a good time. We’re gonna have a party! :etard:

[ryno lite]

We want to be free! We want to be free to do what we want to do! We want to be free to ride. And we want to be free to ride our machines without being hassled by The Man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man). And we want to get loaded. And we want to have a good time! And that’s what we’re gonna do. We’re gonna have a good time. We’re gonna have a party! :etard:

I know you are just posting as a joke to get a response, but there is always an indication of someone's opinions in a comment like this.

I think the vast majority of MORC members would love to have the freedom to build and ride what they want where they want, but it just isn't realistic. In these times of dwindling land oppurtunities in our metro area, state, and heck most of the world, the freedom of doing what we want where we want is just not realistic, especially inside our metro area. There are real land oppurtunities available to us, but when we get these, we have to build them to last for decades and through thousands and thousands of riders. In order to do this, we must build sustainable trails. There is no other choice.

As far as the earlier "No tresspassing" comments go. If I had a chunk of land that people built a renegade trail without my permission, I would do my best to close that trail and catch those responsible and prosecute them. If someone asked nicely ahead of time and I didn't mind what they were doing, I might let them do it. People just assuming they can do what they want on my land without permission would just piss me off.

I'm not pointing fingers at the builders of Mammoth, from what I hear, they have permission to have these trails, so that is fine. They do a great job and I really enjoy their trails. I hope their great work continues. I hope people realize that oppurtunities for trails like Mammoth are rare. They have been given a lot of freedom by the land owners there. In most cases of open land in the metro, we would not get that freedom.

Now hopefully I can win the lottery so that I can buy a nice chunk of land to build trails how I want and do what I want! Until then, I will enjoy all the trails in the metro area including Mammoth.

[FormerFarmKing]

Well, they really want us off of the Peninsula loop and I think we should oblige. The new signs were staked into the middle of the trail and make reference to wildlife nesting. This loop is also called the Osprey loop and this is because there is a bird nest platform that is visited every year by a pair of Ospreys to raise little osprey. Stay off this loop. There's still plenty of trail out there to ride.

[transplant]

We want to be free! We want to be free to do what we want to do! We want to be free to ride. And we want to be free to ride our machines without being hassled by The Man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man). And we want to get loaded. And we want to have a good time! And that’s what we’re gonna do. We’re gonna have a good time. We’re gonna have a party! :etard:

Peter Fonda in "The Wild Angels". I had the poster as my avatar and the first few lines as my signature. Fun, schlocky movie.

Successful hijack.

[ACMork]

Dumb question. Has anyone tried to contact the "Bird People," or find out who they are for that matter, and try to negotiate some kind of compromise/pact?

For instance---say we might want to close peninsula loop during nesting season and open it afterwards.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Should Ospreys even be nesting in Chaska anyways? Aren't they a sea-going type raptor?

This type of drama plays out elsewhere too. On the missouri river in ND, Piping Plovers have begun nesting on river sandbanks, where they aren't native, but the "bird people" are able to influence the Army Corps of Engineers controlling the river. Therefore, the river is way low all summer making it very difficult for famers to irrigate......until they nearly open the dam in late fall, eroding the crap out of the riverbank, which evenutally causes cottonwood trees and other fauna to be washed away.

[dirtrider]

does anyone have an answer to his question? i have also seen the no tresspassing signs in the T that either goes to the skull loop or towards the peninsula... its right after u cross a gravel road. whats up with this?

[ryno lite]

does anyone have an answer to his question? i have also seen the no tresspassing signs in the T that either goes to the skull loop or towards the peninsula... its right after u cross a gravel road. whats up with this?

People have been asking this question all year and no one wants to offer an answer. I am curious myself. I'd love to ride there, but I will just stay away. I don't need to be tresspassing and giving bikers a bad name.

[gopherhockey]

I heard that, unlike in the past, these are city installed signs.

[rihaha]

Is there a way to get that trail under our wings? I think there already is a pretty good crew of people who try to maintain it. I would like to ride there again, it is a really fun trail and gives a good challenge. I probably won't go there either until the ok has been given.

[ryno lite]

Is there a way to get that trail under our wings? I think there already is a pretty good crew of people who try to maintain it. I would like to ride there again, it is a really fun trail and gives a good challenge. I probably won't go there either until the ok has been given.


MORC has offered help to that crew in the past regarding Mammoth and they chose to keep on their own so that they could build trails the way they choose to and not have to abide by the IMBA standards. I hope that if an access issue comes up at Mammoth that MORC could somehow help with that they would come to us. The only stipulation would be that they would have to build IMBA sustainable trails which is one of our requirements. The crew out at Mammoth always seems to have everything under control out there, so they would have to make the call if they needed some support from MORC.

[vlang29]

Last time i was out there, I biked out there, and entered the trail from the cul-de-sac at the end of Lyman blvd. I don't remember seeing ANY signs on the wash machine loop (enters on north side). Nor the trail that heads west from that cul-de-sac, with the exception of the peninsula loop, that can easily be skipped.

Just remember to take it EASY when crossing the gravel path. The trail that heads westward from the cul-de-sac crosses this path a few times, and if a pedestrian gets hit, I would bet on no trespassing signs on the rest of the trail too. I don't think there's anything that would get the trail shut down as fast as when an unsuspecting pedestrian gets hit by an irresponsible biker.

[iceskier]

PM for the LD

[ryno lite]

The no trespassing signs are official and were posted by the city. No trespassing means no trespassing in my eyes, so I will be staying off the Mammoth trail system.

Keep in mind that when mountain bikers ignore the signs and ride in no trespassing areas, they hurt the image of mountain bikers in general making the efforts to gain new trails harder.

[JFehren]

It's been a real bummer to see the signs go up but I did find that washing machine loop is open as well as skull loop once you go around to the corn field. They're kind of at opposite ends of the trail so you need to ride a lot of gravel to connect the two but hey it's a mile from my house so something is better than nothing.

Jerod

[LakeMinnetonkaRealtor]

I know that Mammoth is not a MORC approved trail, but can anyone post or PM me a link to a trail map for Mammoth?
I broke in my new bike yesterday at Hillside and really want to try out Mammoth as it's so much closer to my house.

Thanks!