Dura-Ace Cassette on the MTB

[Fast1]

Just curious if anyone is using a 9 speed Dura-ace cassette (12-27) on their mountain rides?

I find the last 3 large rings with a standard MTB cassette are rarely if ever used in MN/WS and thought I'd prefer those three gears placed somewhere in between 12 and 27.

This prompts another question of compatibility.. Will the Dura Ace cassette work with XTR shifters (cog spacing)?

[Kosk]

As long as it's 9spd it'll work.

Many DHer's run road stuff on their bikes. Lighter weight cassettes and short-cage mechs are the main reasons.

[Fast1]

wow.. so you can run a Dura Ace rear deraileur also??

[Magic]

Yes you can run that der. also. Like Pete said, most DH guys will run a Road cassette and road der. Most DH people would like to have a short cage rear der.

[Kosk]

yeah, as long as you mind the spec'd capacity. You'll have to check what shimano's docs say, and compare it to your total min and total max tooth count combinations to make sure. Generally it's all good.

[Kosk]

<dl>Straight from "the Man" aka Sheldon Brown:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_ca-g.html
</dl>
Capacity (of a derailer (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_da-o.html#derailer))
<dl>
<dd>The "capacity" of a particular derailer model is the largest range of sprocket sizes it can handle: For front derailers, when the derailer is mounted high enough to clear the largest chainwheel (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_ch.html#chainwheel), there is a certain minimum size that you need for the smallest ring so that the chain won't be dragging over the bottom of the front cages (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_ca-g.html#cage). Different front derailers have different capacities depending on how tall their cages are. It is expressed in a number of teeth, which is the difference between the largest and smallest chainwheel. For instance, a 52/42/30 crank set would call for a front derailer with a minimum 22 tooth (52-30) capacity.
Front derailers are also designed to be used with a certain size for the largest chain ring. The curvature of the outer cage plate is matched to this size. If you use a different size big ring, capacity may be reduced. If the big ring is substantially smaller than the derailer is designed for, shifting precision will suffer. If the big ring is much smaller than the derailer is designed for, it may shift OK, but you are likely to have to "trim" the front derailer as you shift the rear derailer to the extremes.
For rear derailers, the capacity relates to the amount of chain slack the derailer can take up, and is equal to the front range (22 in the example above) plus the rear range. Thus, if you have a 52/42/30 crank set, and a 12-28 (16 tooth difference) cluster (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_cl.html#cluster), the total capacity required would theoretically be 38 teeth (22 front difference + 16 rear difference).
Manufacturers specify this fairly conservatively. They must do so, because they have to assume that some of their derailers will be sold to incompetent cyclists, who will abuse their drive trains by using the smallest chainwheel with the smaller rear sprockets.
Competent riders can considerably exceed the official rated capacity, since they will not misuse the granny ring by running it with the smaller rear sprockets, so it doesn't matter if the chain hangs slack in those gears.
Rear derailers are also commonly designed for a particular maximum size rear sprocket. If you exceed this size, by too much, the jockey pulley may rub against the sprocket when using the lowest gear.
Rated maximum rear sprocket size, however, is also commonly much lower than what actually works. For instance, Shimano's models designated as "road" derailers are generally listed for a "maximum" sprocket of 27 teeth...because 27 teeth is the largest size that they make in a designated "road" cassette. However, in almost all cases, these derailers, even the short-cage models, will handle rear sprockets as large as 30 teeth in practice. (This somewhat depends on the design of the frame's derailer hanger, so once in a while you will find a particular installation where you can't use a 30, but I've never seen one where a 28 wouldn't work.
I'll also mention that many folks seem to be a bit mystified and intimidated by derailers. They're actually quite inexpensive and easy to replace, so it is foolish to allow the limitations of a particular derailer to keep you from having the gearing appropriate to your riding style/needs.
</dd></dl>

[soupboy]

If you're looking to maximize useable gear range vs. weight and complexity it might also be worthwhile to consider a 1x9 (or 8) vs. adjusting rear cassettes and rear mechs.

A good SS front ring, basher and nGear Jump Stop will take you a lot farther, save weight and provide simplicity over running a front mech, 3 rings and a smaller rear cassette.

Just a thought.

[nord0306]

I have only ridden once with a road cassette on a mountain bike and I didn't like it at all. It was a friends bike and for some reason he thought he'd give it a try. The problem was that I had to shift more then one gear at a time a lot. I rode Leb with it and I found myself changing 3 gears at a time. With a mountain bike it's usually not that critical to have just the right gear, like it would be in the finish sprint in the Tour. Just ask any one of the single speeders on here (somehow I am not including myself in that group).
Basically, if you find yourself constantly shifting back and forth between one gear and would prefer to have the one in between, then maybe a tighter cassette is for you. Otherwise, it's cheaper not to worry about it.
Adam

[mtnbykr]

Many DHer's run road stuff on their bikes. Lighter weight cassettes and short-cage mechs are the main reasons.

and they don't need to climb anything...

[Kosk]

and they don't need to climb anything...

yup, that would be a secondary reason.

[Fast1]

Isn't a 22 front chainring /27 rear cassette combo suitable for climbing in MN and WI?

I tested out Ramsey hill on Monday with my mountain bike and was fine climbing it with the 22/26 combo .. did not need to jump down to the 22/30 or 22/34 gearing..

Do any of you ever use the 22/34 or 22/30 combo for climbing here in MN? If so where do you use that gearing for climbing?

[Magic]

Isn't a 22 front chainring /27 rear cassette combo suitable for climbing in MN and WI?

I tested out Ramsey hill on Monday with my mountain bike and was fine climbing it with the 22/26 combo .. did not need to jump down to the 22/30 or 22/34 gearing..

Do any of you ever use the 22/34 or 22/30 combo for climbing here in MN? If so where do you use that gearing for climbing?

I use a 20/34 on most of my bikes. I have bad knees and need all the gear help I can get. There are some section at Afton that I will use this and when I use to go to Lutsen also. I like to climb as long as I'm geared for it.

[TML]

Do any of you ever use the 22/34 or 22/30 combo for climbing here in MN? If so where do you use that gearing for climbing?

Long rides.

I agree I use my 22 much less than my 42. But on longer rides at some of the places with actual hills those gears do come in handy. Think lap # 3 or 4 at BC or Afton.

[Magic]

Long rides.

I agree I use my 22 much less than my 42. But on longer rides at some of the places with actual hills those gears do come in handy. Think lap # 3 or 4 at BC or Afton.

Or like lap #4 or 5 and the rest of what you can do during the 24hr race at Afton.;)

[Crash]

Do any of you ever use the 22/34 or 22/30 combo for climbing here in MN? If so where do you use that gearing for climbing?

Stairway to Heaven in Red Wing comes to mind. And that climb back up out of the quary.....

[Fast1]

Or like lap #4 or 5 and the rest of what you can do during the 24hr race at Afton.;)


How does the grade at Afton compare to Ramsey Hill in St. Paul?

Its been so long since I've been out at Afton I can't remember..

Could gearing selection be a factor of rider weight, bike weight, wheel/tire weight, frame / crank stiffness and suspension set up besides the grade of the climb?

[Heuy]

Isn't a 22 front chainring /27 rear cassette combo suitable for climbing in MN and WI?

I tested out Ramsey hill on Monday with my mountain bike and was fine climbing it with the 22/26 combo .. did not need to jump down to the 22/30 or 22/34 gearing..

Do any of you ever use the 22/34 or 22/30 combo for climbing here in MN? If so where do you use that gearing for climbing?

I drop to my bottom gear immediately when attacking the manhandler on Afton.

Brings me back to some of the threads we've had on spinning vs. mashing. Just because you can turn a bigger gear doesn't mean you should. I got a computer with cadence for my road bike last year. when I started looking at it I was turning 80 RPMs now I've trained myself to turn 100 to 110 when pushing hard. Your legs will thank you.

[Magic]

Stairway to Heaven in Red Wing comes to mind. And that climb back up out of the quary.....

I second this. I use my granny on the Stairway for all laps.

[Magic]

How does the grade at Afton compare to Ramsey Hill in St. Paul?

Its been so long since I've been out at Afton I can't remember..

Could gearing selection be a factor of rider weight, bike weight, wheel/tire weight, frame / crank stiffness and suspension set up besides the grade of the climb?

We have 1200 vertical feet of climbing per each lap on the 24hr course out at Afton. The Manhandler and Whistler at the top of Manhandler will make some people use the granny. I know it does for me. And Shady Hollow will take it out of you also. If you want to climb, come to Afton. And if you haven't been there in awhile, come see what we have done and get ready to suffer.

[Crash]

How does the grade at Afton compare to Ramsey Hill in St. Paul?

Tough to compare - one is dirt the other pavement. I think manhandler is also longer. I usaully ride Ramsey on my road bike in a 39x23 and manhandler in a 22x34. I seem to remember suffering more at Afton.

On paper, I think Ramsey has a steeper grade but the other factors make Afton equally if not a harder climb.

[Nickel]

If I was going to run 1x8 or 1x9 on a mountain bike, is it possible to use a 32-t chainring with the largest cog on the cassette for places like Manhandler?

[Kosk]

Of course it's possible. There is no special voodoo-vortex preventing you from shifting to that gear. Chances of you pushing your bike up the hill though?

= Very likely.

[slothlike]

If I was going to run 1x8 or 1x9 on a mountain bike, is it possible to use a 32-t chainring with the largest cog on the cassette for places like Manhandler?


That's what I did at Afton, works well as long as I don't backpedal, then it wants to fall off because the chainline is at a steep angle. Course, I was pushing up that hill after the first lap, but I would have been anyway.

-ted

[Nickel]

That's what I did at Afton, works well as long as I don't backpedal, then it wants to fall off because the chainline is at a steep angle. Course, I was pushing up that hill after the first lap, but I would have been anyway.

-ted


Yeah I should ask myself if I honestly expect to even be able to do those hills ;)

[Fast1]

We have 1200 vertical feet of climbing per each lap on the 24hr course out at Afton. The Manhandler and Whistler at the top of Manhandler will make some people use the granny. I know it does for me. And Shady Hollow will take it out of you also. If you want to climb, come to Afton. And if you haven't been there in awhile, come see what we have done and get ready to suffer.


so 1200 feet ascending.. what about descent per lap?

I'll have to take my Garmin Etrex Summit out to Afton and check a few things.. my GPS also measures alot of variables related to elevation such as:
current vertical speed output in feet/minute
max/min descent ouput in ft/min
average descent/ascent output in feet/minute
total descent/ascent
min or max elevation

Could be a great tool for monitoring your progress while training


I still feel type of suspension, wheel/tire weight, rider weight, bike weight and physical conditioning affect gearing selection for hills.


Here is what my gear inch spreadsheet says

22/27 = 21.2"
22/30 = 19.1"
22/32 = 17.9"
22/34 = 16.9"

in effect you loose 4.3" gear inches by limiting yourself to a 27 rear cog instead of having the 34 bail out..

in comparison jumping from a 22/11 to a 22/12 creates a similar drop of 4.3" gear inches..

[Stonehenge]

think about it - Gearing needed is also impaced by how gassed you are coming into a climb. Ex. I took a ridder out to the farm - he said the Heart attack hill was not that bad. Do to circumsatance he came in to it at a low heart rate ( rested just before). I told him- try it when you are already at 90 plus percent of max then tell me what you think.

[Fast1]

think about it - Gearing needed is also impaced by how gassed you are coming into a climb. Ex. I took a ridder out to the farm - he said the Heart attack hill was not that bad. Do to circumsatance he came in to it at a low heart rate ( rested just before). I told him- try it when you are already at 90 plus percent of max then tell me what you think.


exactly.. that is how I tested myself on Ramsey Hill.. I had allready put 20 miles in on the MTB with an average speed of 17 mph before ascending the hill..

I'm not so sure I could have went down any lower in gearing and still maintained any form of forward momentum without feeling like I was "track standing"..

Granted if I had done 1/2 dozen trips up Ramsey I might feel differently.. maybe I'll have to give it a try and find out..

[Stonehenge]

I'll have to take my Garmin Etrex Summit out to Afton and check a few things..
in effect you loose 4.3" gear inches by limiting yourself to a 27 rear cog instead of having the 34 bail out..

in comparison jumping from a 22/11 to a 22/12 creates a similar drop of 4.3" gear inches..


Mike you certainly have a few points here to concider. The Garmin insight would be very intersesting to many readers here. Also consider many riders Level of ride is dependent upon how they feel too. Ex. close to bonk or not and a hard section at hand. Also the middle ring vs the small ring. Even though there are many cross over points in gearing the ridder power output will rule the crank turn regardless of gear inches. Try ridding the manhandler when fresh vs. near bonk, at bonk you may find walking is the better choice. Elsinor rules do not apply if you know what I mean. :)
For some reason Expert class ridders and especially single speed ridders skew the reasoning. It is not just logical.

[Fast1]

Elsinor rules do not apply if you know what I mean. :)



I know what you mean.. I think I may have to wire my right grip on beause it continues to twist on me while riding.. :)

The GPS might be interesting for a few to try.. I think it only weighs ~ 5 ounces.. I've used it alot for climbing out in the mountains, navigating in the sand dunes, finding those prescious fishing spots on lakes and while hunting in the westerns states on horseback. I find it an invalualbe tool for any of my hobbies. The elevaton features could be an accurate performance measurement tool for those training in the mountains or the hills of MN on a bike aong with a heart rate monitor.

[Fast1]

Try ridding the manhandler when fresh vs. near bonk, at bonk you may find walking is the better choice..


Dave

Where is the manhandler climb at Afton? I can not locate it on the MORC map.. Are there any other climbs out there with some similarity to Manhandler? I haven't been out to Afton in at least 7 years.. If I remember corectly the steepest climbs then were in the southern switchback area.


http://www.morcmtb.org/trailreviews/metro/images/aftonalps/afton_trail_map.jpg

[Stonehenge]

I know what you mean.. I think I may have to wire my right grip on beause it continues to twist on me while riding.. :)

LOL multiple times. Been there too.....more gas ..more gas...where is the gas !!! Nice comeback

[Stonehenge]

Where is the manhandler climb at Afton? I can not locate it on the MORC map.. Are there any other climbs out there with some similarity to Manhandler?

This map is representative of the area but not nearly detailed to the trail definition. especially as much new trail/ reroute have been added in just the last two years. The Manhandler starts on a low section of the ski area pretty much straight out into the hill from the first low level Chalet as you drive down. From that Chalet look to the hill and back about 10 to 11 o'clock then follow to your right up hill. trail is fast down hill from the left then curve little your left as you enter the Manhandler (one of the down hill runs - looks to be run # 3 ?). this runs on grass to near the top onto a gravel/rock road like terrain (up hill as well. known as the Whistler and then by the Maintenance buildings. Then down hill mostly single track from here to the bottome. Note there is a hare pin turn on sigle track just above the Manhandler that goes directly to the Whistler (bypass of Manhandler if go straight.) Hard Right 180 will loop you into a fun and fast single track away and then back down hill in to the Manhandler then Whistler and on to the Hideaway then Mountain crossing towards the Alps chalet. Many people bypass the Manhandler when they ride at afton.

Signage can be tough to follow as there are many trails there. The 24 hour race uses most if not all of the trail and links differently than the MNSCS races (MNSCS.com). If you visit during the 24 hrs race it should be at the season best. Or ride the day before MNSCS race - preride day. There is plan again this year to add more single track. This is a Pay to play venue- Park at upper Chalet ( golf club house too.)