Tire Studding Discussion [Archive] - Minnesota Off-Road Cyclists Discussion Forums

gopherhockey

11-06-2006, 09:31 AM

Its that time of year again. Time to get ready for winter riding!

There has been some discussion of a group getting together to stud up some tires. I'm sure there are others who are interested in getting tires done (or are debating purchasing).

First, there is a lot of information that Scott put together in our How-To area. http://www.morcmtb.org/morcpages/howto/

What the guide maybe doesn't touch on are things like finding the best tires to stud and making sure they will fit your frame... as well as perhaps some suggestions on where to get these tires at a good price.

Not all tires stud up as well as others. Some frames might fit a tire well now, but once studs are added they might rub.

Some insight and some estimated studded tire sizes will be added here shortly. If we get enough good info we can perhaps add it to the how-to.

tedsti

11-06-2006, 09:57 AM

One note on the how to - I have used rubber cement to glue in liners with good success. I do the put it on both pieces and let it dry method. Then you get instant adhesion.

Some will say just use some old tires. I say that if you are going to go through the effort, get some new tires that aren't warn out. Having tall knobs is key to making good studded tires.

Tire Selection - The WTB Timberwolf is a great tire. They can't be found a cheap as last year though. You want the biggest volume tire that will fit with nice big knobs to support the screws.

What tire will fit in my frame??? http://www.mtbtires.com/specs/index.html This site is an excellent resource. It lists the tread and casing width for many tires. It will also tell you the diameter of the widest point. I prefer to work in mm since the inch measurements are in decimal, not fractions and most people don't have a ruler or tape measure with 1/10th of an inch. Most regular cross country frames will not fit anything bigger than a 2.3 in the rear and some won't even fit that. Most forks will clear a 2.5.

Let's work through an example. The WTB Timberwolf Race 2.5. It has a tread width of 66.7mm and a casing width of 56.6mm. The axle to tread widest point is 327 mm. That is all well and good, but will it fit???? For the rear tire you need to check the chainstays and the seatstays. Measure 327 mm from your dropout along your seat and chainstays and put a mark on them. Then measure the inside width at these points, your wheel will have to be removed. I like to have at least 3 mm of clearance on each side. For the 2.5 WTB Timberwolf to fit your width must be at least 66.7+3+3 = 72.7mm. The front fork is done in a similar fashion.

tedsti

11-06-2006, 01:03 PM

Been looking at tire options

Panaracer Cinder 2.25 - not a real big casing but nice sized knobs. This may be a good option for a rear tire

Panaracer Fire FR 2.4 - Good sized casing and taller knobs than the WTB Timberwolf!! This may be a good option for a front tire

Nickel

11-06-2006, 01:36 PM

Can you use these tires to commute in on as well or is it best to use them on the trail where there will definitely be a layer of snow/ice?

funky-funky-chicken

11-06-2006, 01:45 PM

Can you use these tires to commute in on as well or is it best to use them on the trail where there will definitely be a layer of snow/ice?

Having only ridden with a number of people who have made their own studded tires, I believe that the home-brew versions are better for off-road conditions.

For a mix of road use, I believe that the store-bought versions are superior. They have a lower profile stud that is less-prone to be pulled or torn. The more-expensive versions use a carbide steel that does not wear very quickly at all. I'm now going on a third season using a set of Nokian extremes. They work pretty well off-road. For pure off-road, I'm considering making a set of tires.

dave t

11-06-2006, 01:50 PM

home brew studded tires using screws will wear out the point if you ride the road or paved paths. It is the point that you rely on for grip on the ice.
The carbide studs on the store bought winter treads gold up to pavement way better.

bigwheel

11-06-2006, 01:54 PM

Can you use these tires to commute in on as well or is it best to use them on the trail where there will definitely be a layer of snow/ice?

You should not use homemade studs on pavement. Steel (even stainless) screws won't last long on pavement. For your commuter, you want the short carbide studs.

The thing that makes homemade studs so good is that the studs are longer, and will punch through the top layer of snow to grab on the ground/ice below.

If you don't want to stud your own tires, the Nokian Extremes are very nice snow/ice tires. I used them on my 26er a couple years ago, and they were great. They have lots of tread, and grip amazingly well on ice. The place where they are limited is when you have packed snow on top of ice. The tiny store-bought studs cannot reach the ice underneath. For me, the show-stopper issue is that the Extremes don't come in a 29er version. All they have are the skinny road versions.

Don Youngdahl

11-06-2006, 03:47 PM

.

................... The more-expensive versions use a carbide steel that does not wear very quickly at all.......................

The rest of this post exactly matches my experience, but I thougt I'd add a terminology corretion that may help prevent someone from buying the wrong thing.

The good, expensive studs are tungsten carbide, an alloy of tungsten and carbon. The cheaper ones that don't hold up as well are high carbon steel, sometimes called carbide steel.

Before I learned the difference, on X-C ski pole tips, I found that retailers would blithely tell me that tips were tungsten carbide, when actually they were high carbon steel. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt by assuming they didn't know the difference.

Don Youngdahl

gopherhockey

11-06-2006, 03:54 PM

Most have said it well. I rode Nokians at first last year and, like my lights, wasn't going to go the home-brew route. I changed my mind after one lap behind Ted and his home-brew tires. The Nokian were worthless (at least for me) compared the the gripping power of the home studs. Once I put on the home-brews I think its safe to say we were able to roll faster than we did in the summer at some points during the winter.

There were some that never rode studs at all and even that worked... they just got dropped initially in the pine tree area where it got to be pure ice. I notice they weren't able to keep the same speeds through corners etc. but didn't have to carry the same weight either.

I can't wait to bust out the Pugsleys for packing and the home-brews for everything else. Maybe won't use studs at all during the first dusting of snow.

Note: don't grab a home-brewed tire like you would a regular tire (even with thick gloves). Also, be prepared for hurt if you slam your knee up into your front tire. (even if just gently while standing around). :jumpy:

gopherhockey

11-06-2006, 03:56 PM

GettingFaster

11-06-2006, 04:24 PM

For me, the show-stopper issue is that the Extremes don't come in a 29er version. All they have are the skinny road versions.

What do you suggest for those of us rolling on 29's? I have no qualms with studding my own. I was leaning towards Maxxis Ignitors, but am curious if you have any better ideas.

tedsti

11-06-2006, 06:07 PM

I would go with the new Panaracer Rampage or Kenda Nevegal if they will fit in your frame.

What do you suggest for those of us rolling on 29's? I have no qualms with studding my own. I was leaning towards Maxxis Ignitors, but am curious if you have any better ideas.

flutterbyes

11-06-2006, 06:12 PM

I might also say that if anyone is planning to stud up tires soon, show up on Tuesday or Thursday with your winter bike and we can give you a good estimate of what you will need. I even have 2.3, 2.5 and 2.7 Timberwolves that I can bring as guides.

Can you bring these tires this Thursday? I'm going to stud a pair of tires but am stumped at which size to buy... and while that example Ted gave was stellar.... math is not my strength. :)

gopherhockey

11-06-2006, 06:15 PM

Can you bring these tires this Thursday? I'm going to stud a pair of tires but am stumped at which size to buy... and while that example Ted gave was stellar.... math is not my strength. :)

I'll bring along what I have, both studded and non-studded to the Tuesday and Thursday night rides...

mtnbykr

11-06-2006, 06:25 PM

I would go with the new Panaracer Rampage or Kenda Nevegal if they will fit in your frame.

i've got a set of the kenda 2.1 29er tires if you don't want to studd a new/spendy set. still have really good tread. $30 + shipping.

[i think]i've also got 2 sets of mythos 2.1's. both pair pretty good tread. if you're interested, i'll dig'em out of the attic and see what's what. price would be about the same.

hockeynut

11-06-2006, 07:32 PM

What do you suggest for those of us rolling on 29's? I have no qualms with studding my own. I was leaning towards Maxxis Ignitors, but am curious if you have any better ideas.

I home-brewed a set of Bonty ACX's with 3/8" and 1/2" #6 sheet metal screws. They worked well enough that the tires were not what was holding me back at last year's ice races. I'd probably go with all 3/8" on the rear if I was doing it again as the 1/2"ers were a VERY tight fit at the chainstays (some scratches in my powdercoat, but nothing to the frame... phew).

I think that the Klaw's would be good ones too. You should be able to find either of these probably cheaper than an Ignitor or the new tires.

bigwheel

11-07-2006, 07:19 AM

What do you suggest for those of us rolling on 29's? I have no qualms with studding my own. I was leaning towards Maxxis Ignitors, but am curious if you have any better ideas.

Like Ted said, the Panaracer Rampage 29er seems to be the tire to use. They are brand new, and difficult to get. 2.35 wide, with big knobs. I finally got my notice that I'm getting my first set :banana:

Last year, I rode a used set of Kenda Klaws, which were only okay.

For homebrew tires, the big knobs make it easier to put screws in and have them not fold over.

GettingFaster

11-07-2006, 07:44 AM

bigwheel

11-07-2006, 07:59 AM

Thanks for the suggestions Ted, Kurt, Isaac, and Bob. My frame has plenty of clearance, so I'll probably stud up the new Panaracer. I'm going to need all the help I can get to keep up with the local pack of Pugs!

I'm guessing that after the snow is packed down, we will switch from the pugs back to the studded single speeds.

Studded tires on packed snow or ice is very fast. Plus, the entire trail becomes intermediate. All the rock gardens and logs are covered over. My main problem is that I normally let the bike drift around when I ride, but in the snow that means I'm constantly getting stuck on the sides of the trail because the packed path is only a few inches wide.

KleinCrazy

11-07-2006, 08:20 AM

Here is a pic of my set of Home-Brew Studded

http://www.morcmtb.org/photopost/data/500/6Traction-setup.jpg

1 Set of Bontrager AC tires
2/3" and 5/8" inch Self Tapping Pan Head Sheet Metal Screws. Square drive if you can find them.

I have mine done so when riding straight, the front tire studs are not engaged, only when a slight lean is given will they begin to bite. This can make for a slightly squirly ride when trying to flat turn at very slow speeds, but on good ice, I can turn a corner and drag a knee on the ice while clipped in.

The rear have the same side stud pattern as the front but also have studs 1 row in to just barely bite when upright and provide drive.

I am thinking about trying to find some 1/4" or so Self Tappers and see if I can run a center line down both tires with just the bare minimum of stud sticking out of the knob.

I run a second split tube loose as a liner between the tire and tube. never had a problem with punctures in 3 years of running like this, though I have ripped 2 stems out of tubes somehow.

I will also bring these tires tonight to Salem so people can get a look.

tedsti

11-07-2006, 08:27 AM

I will bring my 2.3 Timberwolf mounted on a rear and 2.5 mounted on a front for fitting tests on the Tues and Thurs rides.

It looks like the Fire FR may even have taller knobs than the Timberwolf according to Shiggy.

mtnbykr

11-07-2006, 09:38 AM

...though I have ripped 2 stems out of tubes somehow.

low psi, grippy tire and your massive leggs...

it's the reason why 4x4s screw the rims to the tires, thru the bead.

dave t

11-08-2006, 08:06 AM

Nashbar has 2.5 Conti Diesels for $20 each in a kevlar bead. They look like they have a decent knob for screws and don't start out quite as heavy as some big tires.
The Timberwolves are a great winter tire but if you are looking for something cheap, these look pretty good. I ordered a set and when they show up I'll post the real-life measurements.
Kevlar beads are nice during the screw install because it is really easy to turn the whole tire inside-out. On many tires, when they're inside-out, you can see the knob pattern from the inside and can skip all the marking and drilling steps. Just grab the screw gun and go nuts.

mtnbykr

11-08-2006, 07:29 PM

... so I'll probably stud up the new Panaracer. I'm going to need all the help I can get to keep up with the local pack of Pugs!

here's some rampages in stock. http://tinyurl.com/yktcuk (http://tinyurl.com/yktcuk)
or
http://www.comcycle-usa.com/ProductInfo.aspx?id=2288483

pretty rare, gett'em while you can....

bigwheel

11-08-2006, 09:47 PM

here's some rampages in stock. http://tinyurl.com/yktcuk (http://tinyurl.com/yktcuk)
or
http://www.comcycle-usa.com/ProductInfo.aspx?id=2288483

pretty rare, gett'em while you can....

Also http://www.bikemannetwork.com/biking/p/TR2370

If all goes well, I'll have a pair in my hands by tomorrow night.

bpblondie

11-09-2006, 10:37 PM

Any opinions on rim width for homebrew studded tires? Is there any perceivable difference with a wide vs. narrow rim?

gopherhockey

11-10-2006, 07:21 AM

Any opinions on rim width for homebrew studded tires? Is there any perceivable difference with a wide vs. narrow rim?

Yup. I got the Sun Singletrack rim with around 31mm width which allows the tread to flatten out further.

tedsti

11-10-2006, 07:50 AM

As you start running 2.4+ tires, you should really run a wider rim than a standard, narrow XC rim. When you run wide tires on narrow rims, the tire tends to get squirmy at low pressures. Plus, as John said, a wider rim will help widen the footprint.

Any opinions on rim width for homebrew studded tires? Is there any perceivable difference with a wide vs. narrow rim?

Burke

11-10-2006, 08:46 AM

As you start running 2.4+ tires, you should really run a wider rim than a standard, narrow XC rim.
Be careful with tire width and stud clearance. I studded up a set of Panaracer Megablaster 2.5s. They are awesome tires, but the studs dig into the chainstays on my single bikes and only have clearance on my tandem.

bigwheel

11-10-2006, 09:05 AM

I got a pair of Panaracer Rampage 29ers last night. They look like a good tire for summer riding, but I am no longer excited about them for studding. Their knobs are not very big, and the tire doesn't seem very wide.

So I'll probably switch over to the Kenda Nevegal 29ers for the studs this year. Here are some numbers:

Panaracer Rampage 29x2.35
Width case/tread 56.5/59.1
weight 793
Tread depth Center/Side 3.7/4.7

Kenda Nevegal 29x2.2
Width case/tread 56.5/60.5
weight 798
Tread depth Center/Side 4.0/6.5

Kenda Klaw (for reference, my last-year studs) 29x2.1
Width case/tread 50.7/47.2
weight 637
Tread depth Center/Side 4.3/6.4 - front, 3.8/5.5 - rear

GettingFaster

11-10-2006, 09:14 AM

I got a pair of Panaracer Rampage 29ers last night. They look like a good tire for summer riding, but I am no longer excited about them for studding. Their knobs are not very big, and the tire doesn't seem very wide.

I was hoping you'd get Panaracers soon so I wouldn't have to be the guinea pig. Thanks for passing on the information!

mtnbykr

11-10-2006, 09:29 AM

So I'll probably switch over to the Kenda Nevegal 29ers for the studs this year.

fyi,

the nevegals are narrower than a wtb exi mounted on the same rim, according to my caliper.

mtbr posters are reporting ther neve and rampage to be the same size.

the next wider tire will be the wtb wierwolf due in january.

bigwheel

11-10-2006, 12:33 PM

fyi,

the nevegals are narrower than a wtb exi mounted on the same rim, according to my caliper.

mtbr posters are reporting ther neve and rampage to be the same size.

the next wider tire will be the wtb wierwolf due in january.

Thanks, Kurt. Unfortunately, the exi and weirwolf have little tiny knobs, which are too small to hold studs.

mtnbykr

11-10-2006, 01:25 PM

bob

the tread pattern is damn near the same on the kenda and the panaracer.

i switch to 26" studds in the winter. dislike homemades and no really good store-boughts uet for a 29

bigwheel

11-10-2006, 01:50 PM

Yes, but the Nevegal's center and side tread depths are 8 and 38 percent deeper. (see post #30) That's a lot more rubber to hold the studs. Plus the Nevegal is a couple percent wider, even though the Rampage advertises as being wider.

I still have my old 26er and a set of Nokian Extremes. I rode them a couple winters ago, but prefer the SS 29er and homemade studs.

I also considered lacing up a set of very wide 26" wheels and running Timberwolf 2.7s (26ers) on the Karate Monkey. But, the new Pugsley will hopefully fill the need for really wide tires.

mtnbykr

11-10-2006, 03:05 PM

my kenda nevegals measure out at [in mm]--
tread-57
casing-51
side knobs-6
centre knobs-2

dave t

11-15-2006, 11:40 PM

Nashbar has 2.5 Conti Diesels for $20 each in a kevlar bead. They look like they have a decent knob for screws .....

The Diesels arrived today and they look like a real nice stud tire. Good sized knobs with nice shoulder bracing on the side knobs. Not quite as tall as the monster knobs on the Timberwolf but more of them. Also a shorter screw could be used and still get good penetration.

I didn't count all the knobs but in an equal length section of tire, my timberwolf 2.7 had 16 knobs where there were 21 knobs on the Diesel 2.5.

I took measurements with the tire mounted on an old 26x1.5 rim I had in the garage that measured .75" inside across the bead hooks. I mounted a Timberwolf (a 2.7 so not apples to apples but I thought I would compare them anyway) on a matching rim for comparison.

Continental Diesel 2.5 - Body width 2.10", Knob width 2.37", Center knobs .18" tall.
WTB Timberwolf 2.7 - Body width 2.18", Knob width 2.58", center knobs .23" tall.

I would say these rims are pretty narrow for tires this big and, on the Timby for sure, the body and knob widths would be a bit closer with a wider rim.

My $.02 on studding either of these tires:

I would definately hit every knob on the Timby but would probably figure out a pattern to skip some on the diesel.

Crash

11-16-2006, 08:15 AM

Also a shorter screw could be used and still get good penetration.

:shocked: :shocked: :shocked: :shocked: :shocked:

dave t

11-16-2006, 08:43 AM

:scream: This IS a thread on studding isn't it?

NewTicker

12-25-2006, 09:21 PM

Anyone know where I can get "3M Fast Tack Trim Adhesive"?

ibismojo2001

12-26-2006, 07:33 AM

I've seen it on some bicycling websites. Rubber cement also works well.:D

dave t

12-26-2006, 04:51 PM

Menards has a few types of the 3M spray adhesives.

mtnbykr

12-26-2006, 04:51 PM

Anyone know where I can get "3M Fast Tack Trim Adhesive"?

auto body shop??

or

www.levineautoparts.com/3mfastactrim.html (http://www.morcmtb.org/forums/www.levineautoparts.com/3mfastactrim.html)

JBergland

12-27-2006, 09:01 AM

One thing that I haven’t seen mentioned that might be worth discussing is stud patterns. I believe this can be as important (maybe even MORE important) as tire choice.

This is a common question with the snowmobile crowd… how (as in how many and where should they be placed) to stud a track. Just putting studs on might not be as effective as intentionally placing them in various patterns. There is also horsepower, riding style, and intended terrain to consider.

How does this relate to studding bicycle tires?? Well, here are a couple things I’ll throw out for consideration:

Over Studding: Over studding a snowmobile track will give the machine great straight line traction, but will cause it to push in the corners and cause other handling drawbacks. Over studding a bicycle tire will also provide great straight line traction… along with added traction everywhere else!! However, more studs also adds more weight along with more rotating resistance… meaning it will require more effort to carry a higher top speed.

Length of Studs: Having ‘long’ studs on a snowmobile will add traction in a variety of conditions, but may cause tunnel damage on the machine and possibly the environment (trails, bridges, etc.). Shorter studs might not provide enough traction. On a bicycle, longer studs can add traction in more extreme conditions (lots of snow or no snow/pure ice), but they can also cause damage to the frame (clearance issues) along with ‘rolling over’ with low tire pressure.

My experience with stud patterns suggests having different patterns (front vs. rear) and different lengths of studs (middle of the tire vs. the edge) yields the best results.

Other thoughts/experience?? Let’s hear it!!

JB

JBergland

12-27-2006, 09:10 AM

My Home-Brewed Tires

I have over studded my tires with longer than needed screws. I run a pretty high tire pressure so they don’t roll over. On the down side is the weight (they are pretty flipping heavy) and speed (LOTS-O-EFFORT to maintain top speed). On the plus side, they stick like velcro in most conditions… little chance of ever falling because of slipping. Only recently have I been able to get the rear end to break loose and slip during a turn… even then it was marginal.

JB

dave t

12-27-2006, 09:28 AM

I found that in drive situations where you may get tire slippage it is important to stagger the studs.If all your studs are in nice straight lines the first few can cut away all the ice and bottom the tread. With nothing left to bite, the wheel just spins.

A good stagger pattern will let the studs keep digging on a fresh track. The ability to stagger the studs is one thing to look for in a tire meant for the screw treatment.

This doesn't affect braking or cornering because you are moving and always have new ice under your wheels.

gus man

01-01-2007, 10:29 AM

Mine use sheet rock screws

bigwheel

01-01-2007, 06:54 PM

Mounted the new studded Nevegal 29ers on the Karate Monkey today, and took it for a test spin. Unfortunately, when I hit a bump, a few of the studs rub on the Reba. Time to do a little bit of snipping.

nord0306

01-05-2007, 12:04 AM

Is anybody running anything other then duct tape and/or a split innertube as protection from the tube? Last year I used some adhesive backed foam, with pretty good results but it started to tear around the screw heads, so I covered it with duct tape, more is better right. This year I'm looking to be a little more efficient with my protection. I'm thinking of either gluing a tube in or getting a Mr.Tuffy tire liner, just wanted to check if anybody has tried either.
thanks
Adam

GettingFaster

01-05-2007, 07:18 AM

bigwheel

01-05-2007, 08:52 AM

Other than your Reba issues, did the Nevegals stud up nicely?

Yes, it went reasonably well. If you look at the nevegals, you'll see that the rows of knobs alternate between larger and smaller. (I don't know why.) So, I put screws in all of the big knobs, making a series of smiles. Then, I ended up going back and adding screws to the extra knobs on the "slight lean" position.

I also tried lining the tire with a cheap 37mm road tire, rather than using a tube. I had to cut the liner tire and add about a 1-inch patch over the opening, to compensate for the smaller road tire circumference. I pumped it up to 90 psi while the glue dried, so I don't think it'll have any flex/gap issues.

I've only taken one real ride on it, and it appears to work well. I haven't tried it in deeper snow yet.

Magic

01-05-2007, 08:52 AM

tedsti

01-05-2007, 04:33 PM

I had great luck with a 29er tube glued in with rubber cement. I think the key is to glue the tube to the tire unstretched so it will be thicker and harder to wear through.

This year I'm looking to be a little more efficient with my protection. I'm thinking of either gluing a tube in or getting a Mr.Tuffy tire liner, just wanted to check if anybody has tried either.
thanks
Adam

Tex

01-08-2007, 09:07 AM

bigwheel

01-08-2007, 09:17 AM

I just finished my tires yesterday and I'm experimenting with some of the new Gorilla brand duct tape. It's 3x (17ml) as thick as normal duct tape and is supposed to be super strong. I put two layers of it in my front tire to see how it will hold up, but I went the conventional route for the rear. I'll keep you all posted on how it holds up.

If you see me walking my bike at the ice races at the end of the month, you'll know it didn't work to well.

Don't do it! Duct tape won't work. (even the good stuff) The flexing of your tire will tear little holes in the tape, and the screws will poke through.

This year, I'm trying using a cheapie 37mm road tire as a liner They are slightly heavier than tubes, but not as heavy as you'd think. I cut the wire bead off, and cut the tire to make a single strip, then added an inch patch (old tire) to fill in the gap where the road tire didn't fit my 29er circumference. Then, I pumped them up to about 90 psi and let the glue dry. They seem to be working okay, except that I made a bad choice of glue. 3M 5200 doesn't stick well to tire material.

Tex

01-08-2007, 04:12 PM

Don't do it! Duct tape won't work. (even the good stuff) The flexing of your tire will tear little holes in the tape, and the screws will poke through.

hmmm, yeah I tried it with duct tape before too (with minimal luck), but this new tape looked pretty impressive, that's why I was going to give it a try. I guess maybe I'll have to take it out on a couple area lakes before the end of the month and see how it does. Otherwise, I'll be changing it over to the "conventional" route before the Chilly Chili ice race.

rideharder

01-08-2007, 05:04 PM

why would you waste the $$ on that tape not knowing if it is going to work. at least you know that an old tube or tire will work and wont have to monkey with it later.

hmmm, yeah I tried it with duct tape before too (with minimal luck), but this new tape looked pretty impressive, that's why I was going to give it a try. I guess maybe I'll have to take it out on a couple area lakes before the end of the month and see how it does. Otherwise, I'll be changing it over to the "conventional" route before the Chilly Chili ice race.

tedsti

01-08-2007, 06:27 PM

One thing to watch out for on duct tape is that it does not stretch like the tire casing will. This will affect the shape of the tire as well as how it conforms to the trail.

hmmm, yeah I tried it with duct tape before too (with minimal luck), but this new tape looked pretty impressive, that's why I was going to give it a try.

Tex

01-09-2007, 09:00 AM

why would you waste the $$ on that tape not knowing if it is going to work. at least you know that an old tube or tire will work and wont have to monkey with it later.

I actually bought the tape a while back, so it's not like I only bought it for this project. I bought it it because it's some super impressive looking duct tape. As Red Green says "If you can't fix it with duct tape, it's not worth fixing".

I think what I'll do is leave the tape in it and install a tube, just as a safety precaution. It might be a little heavier, but I highly doubt any screw will be able to get through both the layer of super tape and the tube. Thanks for the feedback.

bigwheel

01-09-2007, 11:38 AM

but I highly doubt any screw will be able to get through both the layer of super tape and the tube. Thanks for the feedback.

Here's a test I concocted to convince me of what works/doesn't.

1: Take one of your tire screws, and run it partially into the edge of a 2x4 (the smaller side), leaving the head sticking up about a quarter inch or so. If you have a vice, clamp the board into the vice.
2: Take a piece of whatever you are thinking of using for liner, and stretch it over the screw, holding both sides with your hands.
3: Drag it back and forth while under pressure. (about 1/4 to 1/2 inch swipes) This will simulate several miles of riding, when the ground and rocks are pushing on the individual screws, but not necessarily on the tire.

You will see that the duct tape will quickly wear a hole and the screw will poke its smiling head through.

Try this with the tube liner, and you will notice that it takes a lot more work and plenty of stretching to finally rub a hole in it.

Try this with an old road tire, and you will see that it is nearly impossible to rub the screw head through.

NewTicker

01-11-2007, 09:42 PM

bigwheel

01-11-2007, 10:17 PM

Well, I haven't asked a dumb question for a fews days, (at least in the forum) here I go.
I finally got all the holes drilled, thank god for the drill press, but now the hard part is finding screws. Where are you finding 1/4" and 3/8" screws that are Zinc or Stainless Steel? I've looked at my local hardware stores, also, Lowes and Home Depot...
Anyone know of a spot around Plymouth?

Most stores will carry them. (menards, home depot,etc.) Don't get stainless steel. They are very expensive, and wear as quickly, or quicker, than steel. Zinc is just a coating on top of plain old (mild) steel. Most screws already have this.

If you can find them, the best is wafer head screws, because they have a lot of surface area on the head, making it easier to keep in place. Otherwise, get pan head screws. We found that self-tapping sheet metal screws work well and are easy to work with. These are the ones with the tip with the slice cut out. Pointy wood screws will work, but you will wear down the tip faster, and the points tend to scratch everything including you.

Tex

01-12-2007, 08:46 AM

Well, I haven't asked a dumb question for a fews days, (at least in the forum) here I go.
I finally got all the holes drilled, thank god for the drill press, but now the hard part is finding screws. Where are you finding 1/4" and 3/8" screws that are Zinc or Stainless Steel? I've looked at my local hardware stores, also, Lowes and Home Depot...
Anyone know of a spot around Plymouth?

New Ticker - I live on the west side too and I had a super hard time finding anything under a half inch as well. I finally ended up finding 3/8" pan head sheetmetal screws at the Ace hardware store at highway 7 and 101 in Minnetonka. I think it might be Fratolone's Ace Hardware (I think), but I would call first because I bought out their inventory last week.

RiverRat

01-12-2007, 08:57 AM

If you have access, try Fastenal, Grainger, or McMaster (all have web sites). They are going to be much cheaper than your local hardware store, and both grainger and fastenal have local distributors. For reference, I noticed some screws that would work nicely for around $4 for a pack of 100. I don't know if any of them accept orders from individuals, but a lot of businesses have accounts with them.

jkalla

01-12-2007, 09:07 AM

Well, I haven't asked a dumb question for a fews days, (at least in the forum) here I go.
I finally got all the holes drilled, thank god for the drill press, but now the hard part is finding screws. Where are you finding 1/4" and 3/8" screws that are Zinc or Stainless Steel? I've looked at my local hardware stores, also, Lowes and Home Depot...
Anyone know of a spot around Plymouth?

Check out Grainger. www.grainger.com (http://www.grainger.com)

They have a good selection and if the size you need in stock you can pick them up at will call. They have a location in Plymouth. They are a wholesaler and don't like to sell to consumers so either you will have to use your company's account if they have one or make something up - which isn't too hard. Just tell them you are a self employed tire-studder.

[defective]

01-13-2007, 09:05 AM

The shortest wafer or pan head self-drilling screws I can find in town are 1/2", and I want 3/8" for the center tread of my project. I stopped by two Home Depots, a Menards, and an Ace. I also called several Ace's (including the Suburban Ace and Minnetonka stores previously mentioned) and the University Ave. Menards in St. Paul.

I have a box of 1/2", but they're too long for my center tread, and although they'd work for the side tread, I'm wanting just a bit longer - either 9/16" or 5/8". I'm being picky.

Looks like I'll be putting in an order online. Anyone want to join up and split shipping?

Neither Grainger, Fastenal, nor McMaster have what I'm looking for. They have an 3/8" pan #6, but I'd prefer #8, especially for the side tread, as the head diameter is larger and I expect the more surface area on the underside of the screw head will help keep the screw more stable.

BoltDepot is the best I've found so far.

Sheet metal screws » Phillips pan head self drilling » Zinc plated steel : Diameter 8
http://www.boltdepot.com/product.aspx?cc=11&cs=49&cm=7&cd=593

A box of 100 3/8" is $2.66 and shipping seems to be working out to be $0.91, $1.71, or $2.27 per box (an order of 8 boxes - I plan on getting 4 myself), depending on UPS ground, 3 Day Select, or 2nd Day Air.

$3.57, $4.37, or $4.93 for a box of 100, depending on how fast you want them.

I haven't found any 3/8" wafer head self-drilling screws anywhere.

PM me if you want to go in on an order, or if you know of a seller for 3/8" wafer head self-drillers.

hockeynut

01-13-2007, 11:33 AM

I'm not picky about my screws... #6 x 3/8 and 1/2 with a pan head for me, other screws may be a bit better or safer, but these worked fine for me.

I'll second finding your LFS (local Fastenal shop). The Red Wing Fastenal had plenty of screws when I went in and they were MUCH cheaper than the hardware store/Menards route I went last year. I think I'll be heading in to restock, have another order to fill.

bigwheel

01-13-2007, 06:33 PM

The Home Depot in Eagan had both 3/8 and 1/2 inch #6 self-tapping pan head screws. Sold inboxes of 100. I don't remember the price, but it seemed reasonable. I think that Ted was only able to find wafer heads in 1/2 inch. That was at Menards.

Tex

01-16-2007, 09:24 AM

Well I took my newly studded tires out for a test ride this past weekend. I loaded the bike up on the car and drove over to Lake Minnetonka on Saturday and rode around Grey's Bay. I have to say I was blown away by how well they worked on the glare ice. The things conered as good, if not better, then normal tires on pavement. It was sort of funny, because a few of the people out ice fishing flagged me down to see how I was managing to stay upright so well.

I had yesterday off of work, so I took it out again to see how they work in the snow. They still worked pretty good, but I think I should have opted for a narrower 2.0 or 2.1 tire instead of the 2.4 I went with to cut through the snow better. However, I think I'll enjoy the wider tires more for snow trail riding, if I ever get out and do any of it. At any rate, it was a blast getting out there and cutting some corners on the lake and I'm psyched for the race at the end of the month.

incendiarySYS

01-16-2007, 10:02 AM

Tex

01-16-2007, 10:48 AM

Eric-
Did you end up using the Gorilla tape? I didn't see your other posts until now, but I tried the gorilla tape and it worked well for a couple of rides and then the screw heads went right through. Even in the areas that had two layers. I don't know if you did anything differently when you made them but I hope your tires last a little longer then mine did.

I ended up ripping the tape out and glueing in old tubes.

Yeah, per Bob's warning, I removed the gorilla tape and just went with the old tube option instead. I rode for close to two hours this weekend and no flats so far, knock on wood.

By the way Bob, I tried your test on the gorilla tape and it failed miserably. Thanks for the advise.

Fast1

01-16-2007, 12:32 PM

we use these on motorcycle tires for ice racing

could they work for bikes too???

http://www.koldkutter.com/tireproducts.htm

http://www.koldkutter.com/screwtireproducts.htm

chico

01-16-2007, 12:53 PM

You can get self tapping wafer head screws at drywall supply yards. Locally would be Winroc, Tamarack Materials, or Drywall Supply.

bigwheel

01-16-2007, 02:22 PM

we use these on motorcycle tires for ice racing

could they work for bikes too???

I don't think so. Bike tires (other than maybe the 2.7 Timberwolves) don't have enough meat on the knobs to hold a screw that is put in from the outside. Plus, the shortest one they sell is 3/8. That would go right through to the tube.

Good idea, though. I'm looking for some other alternative.

Does anyone sell wafer head screws in 3/8 length?

Fast1

01-16-2007, 02:54 PM

I don't think so. Bike tires (other than maybe the 2.7 Timberwolves) don't have enough meat on the knobs to hold a screw that is put in from the outside. Plus, the shortest one they sell is 3/8. That would go right through to the tube.

Good idea, though. I'm looking for some other alternative.

Does anyone sell wafer head screws in 3/8 length?

Would a tubeless tire work? I know that these studs work very well for grip, traction and steering on ice...

bigwheel

01-16-2007, 03:02 PM

Would a tubeless tire work? I know that these studs work very well for grip, traction and steering on ice...

I'm just guessing, like everyone else. But, I would be worried that losing a stud would lose all of the air.

We used to stud our motorcycle tires from the outside, using hex head sheet metal screws. They worked great, but they would all be gone by the end of the day.

RedSquirrel

01-16-2007, 03:07 PM

That's it!! Forget the tube & tire completley. In fact forget the rubber tire. Why not a FS bike with just really really really beefy rims cut up and/or spikes welded on. OR why not a tuff wheel material wheel with interchange-able removable spikes. Yeah, go mid-evil on it. Who needs rubber in winter anyway. I may have just come up with something here...for antartica anyway. Mad max super snow and ice grip wheel, titanium!

Ok, nevermind, not enough snow around here anymore. Back to regular old work, global warming and rubber tires....

EDIT: I have 2 huge tubeless tires I'll sell for cheap. Hutchinson 2.5 new and Michelin 2.8 near new. The frame I was going to mount on broke....cannot use now.

tedsti

01-16-2007, 04:10 PM

I believe someone tried this at last years Chili race and flatted out on the first lap. I think they tried to use stans to seal it.

You might be able to make it work with a glued in liner on a UST tire though.

Would a tubeless tire work? I know that these studs work very well for grip, traction and steering on ice...

mtnbykr

01-16-2007, 06:02 PM

i'd like to try these--http://tinyurl.com/24ndbr

http://www.best-grip.com/images/home2006/chiodochiave02.gif
http://www.best-grip.com/images/home2006/chiodo1000.gif
http://www.best-grip.com/images/home2006/chiodo1200.gif
http://www.best-grip.com/images/home2006/chiodo1400.gif
http://www.best-grip.com/images/home2006/chiodo1600.gif
http://www.best-grip.com/images/home2006/chiodo1800.gif
http://www.best-grip.com/images/home2006/chiodo3300.gif
http://www.best-grip.com/images/home2006/chiodochiave01.gif

Mountain Bike
Starting from next winter, mountain bike fans will also have the chance to mount Bestgrip nails on their tires, in order to have fun and to train in complete safety in woods, on paths and on dust roads where snow and ice are dominating all winter.
It was ascertained that even in summer 25 nails per tire help to overcome brilliantly paths, slippery and slicky streets paved with cobble-stones (contrary to what one may believe, the nail does not slip on stones or even on asphalt, because it has a thin, very hard widia point which carves even the hardest rock).

NAIL TYPE USED: 1000
NUMBERS OF NAILS FOR 1 TIRE: min. 60 in winter and 20 in summer.
TYPE OF TIRES: with wide enough reinforcements minimum 7 x 7 mm (wide) x 4 mm (thick).
If the nail punctures the tire there are two remedies:
1 For a tubeless tire: add the special anti-puncture liquid recommended by Bestgrip

2 For a tire with tube: add a strip of kevlar or a strip of rubber or a double tube

RiverRat

01-16-2007, 06:30 PM

Fast1

01-16-2007, 06:40 PM

Are those of you that are cooking up your Homebrew tires weighing them to find out what they really weigh?

gopherhockey

01-16-2007, 07:37 PM

Are those of you that are cooking up your Homebrew tires weighing them to find out what they really weigh?

That would be like paying attention to how many calories are actually in the beer we're drinking, wouldn't it?

RedSquirrel

01-16-2007, 09:19 PM

Are those of you that are cooking up your Homebrew tires weighing them to find out what they really weigh?

The tires I used at 1 chili race last year we're easily over 1300 grams each.
-Tire 550 gr. each old conti cross country's
-Screws 100 gr. each
-3 tubes cut up as liners, 450 gr. ea tire (no flats ever!!)
-1 tube holding air 180 gr.
-Contact cement, at least 20 gr.
-Add snow, good to go!
Nothing like a good workout in the winter!!!!

Not kidding. My tires are only good for exercise & mad max like show. Still, glad I made my own, for those special days. Now I sport store bought more than not. Don't let the local pugsley crowd fool ya. Homey's are heavey!

Fast1

01-16-2007, 09:50 PM

what do you think about this type of homebrew tire studding methodology?

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q281/Fast1_photo/index.jpg

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q281/Fast1_photo/index1.jpg

maybe a similar concept could be used with smaller bolts/washers/nuts for bike tires?? as long as you are not counting your calories..

mtnbykr

01-17-2007, 05:54 AM

http://atv-edge.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1103.0;attach=1072 ;image
http://atv-edge.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1103.0;attach=1073 ;image

..

linky no worky

Tex

01-17-2007, 09:15 AM

Any body know the max size homebrew studded tire that will fit in a 99 Klein Attitude? I have disk brakes, so getting past brake pads won't be an issue.

I believe the larget tire I've had in so far are Michelin Hot S 26x2.2, and it looks like there is around .25 inch clearance on each side.

Jeremy I would say a 2.2 tire would be wide enough for studding. I went up to a 2.4 this year and I think that they float a little too much in the deeper snow. If your planning on doing the ice race, a 2.2 (maybe even thinner) would be a good width to go with. If you're planning on doing trail riding in the snow and ice, then you may want to try and squeak out a bit wider tire to get more float. But that's just my two cents.

bigwheel

01-17-2007, 09:24 AM

Couple thoughts:

Premise: Inner tubes, while under tension, will tear faster than those not under tension. If you stretch a tube and poke at it, it will tear much faster

Idea1: Would it make sense to use oversize tubes (if available)? This has been discussed for liners, but not for the tube itself.

Idea2: For those of us that can't get oversized tubes, would it make sense to inflate them and pre-stretch the tubes before mounting them? That way, there would not be anything poking at them while they are being stretched.

These are just random ideas. Please shoot them down.

Magic

01-17-2007, 09:29 AM

tedsti

01-17-2007, 09:43 AM

I run tubes sized for 2.35-2.7 inch tires in my 2.3 and 2.5 studded tires. It is easy insurance.

Idea1: Would it make sense to use oversize tubes (if available)? This has been discussed for liners, but not for the tube itself.

These are just random ideas. Please shoot them down.

tedsti

01-17-2007, 02:12 PM

None of these places have wafer heads shorter than 1/2". If we want a really cool and useful sponsor for the ice races, we should find a screw company willing to make 3/8" square drive, wafer head, self tapping screws. Hardened points would be a bonus.

You can get self tapping wafer head screws at drywall supply yards. Locally would be Winroc, Tamarack Materials, or Drywall Supply.

ibismojo2001

01-17-2007, 02:15 PM

Just run DH tubes and most problems are solved. They are thicker than normal tubes and work great.

Thornproof tubes work as well

Tex

01-17-2007, 02:17 PM

Thornproof tubes work as well

Do you just use a thornproof tube, or do you still need some sort of a liner?

Magic

01-17-2007, 02:20 PM

Do you just use a thornproof tube, or do you still need some sort of a liner?

It's still best to use a liner of some sort.

ibismojo2001

01-17-2007, 03:01 PM

Do you just use a thornproof tube, or do you still need some sort of a liner?

Per Ted's suggestion, I use a 29" tube as the liner and then the thornproof as the "inflating" tube.

Tex

01-17-2007, 04:22 PM

Per Ted's suggestion, I use a 29" tube as the liner and then the thornproof as the "inflating" tube.

Okay, that's what I figured. One of my buddies is studding up a set for the Chilly Chili race and he was going to try just a thorn proof tube - no liner. I will tell him to save his time and install a liner.

Thanks again

dbruning

01-28-2008, 04:01 PM

Ok, so I have managed to stud up a free pair of Kenda Karma (http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/TI410A01-Kenda+Karma+Tire.aspx)
tires according to Scott's "how to" which went alright. Basically they will look just like the Kenda Klondike (http://rbikes.com/page.cfm?PageID=275&action=details&sku=TR5310&affiliate=2) studded snow tire minus the 120 bones.

Klondike:http://rbikes.com/images/library/catalogs/soc/p350X350m/TR5310.jpg

My question after trying to make a liner out of a 26x2.4 tube and keeping it in the tire and over the screws (I could not find 3M adhesive, so am using a epoxy rated to -20 degrees). Basically a big mess and it's not evendone....would oversized Mr. Tuffy tire liner's be worth it??

MisterClaw

01-28-2008, 05:02 PM

(I could not find 3M adhesive, so am using a epoxy rated to -20 degrees)

Epoxy won't work; you need a flexible adhesive.

Gingerdawg

01-28-2008, 06:07 PM

Checker Auto Parts has the Permatex version of the adhesive. "Super Weatherstrip adhesive" It comes in a 5 oz tube for $4.99

Magic

01-28-2008, 06:20 PM

Yes, the Mr. Tuffy's work great. That is what I have been using for the past 12 years and have not had a problem. I also still line in one old DH tube for insurance.

Ok, so I have managed to stud up a free pair of Kenda Karma (http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/TI410A01-Kenda+Karma+Tire.aspx)
tires according to Scott's "how to" which went alright. Basically they will look just like the Kenda Klondike (http://rbikes.com/page.cfm?PageID=275&action=details&sku=TR5310&affiliate=2) studded snow tire minus the 120 bones.

Klondike:http://rbikes.com/images/library/catalogs/soc/p350X350m/TR5310.jpg

My question after trying to make a liner out of a 26x2.4 tube and keeping it in the tire and over the screws (I could not find 3M adhesive, so am using a epoxy rated to -20 degrees). Basically a big mess and it's not evendone....would oversized Mr. Tuffy tire liner's be worth it??

nord0306

01-28-2008, 08:04 PM

I got the mr tuffy's for the 26x2 tire and it was too narrow for my screw pattern. I used rubber cement to hold my tube in. Seemed to work well, easy to brush on.

dbruning

01-29-2008, 10:52 AM

Any thoughts on using a spray adhesive inside the tire and then inflating a tube spraying it on the part that will contact inside of tire, inflate to set then release air and slice er open, wipe out powders and install actual tube for inflation?

What do folks usually inflate theire studded tires to?

tedsti

01-29-2008, 11:27 AM

Rubber cement has worked well for me. Coat both sides and let dry. You then get instant adhesion when you put them together so you don't have to worry about things sliding around.

multiaxial

01-30-2008, 10:10 PM

Go tubeless with Stans. I use the Maxxis rim strips and 2 scoops of Stans. No leaks and, more importantly, no flats yet.

bikemike

02-14-2008, 01:42 PM

Go tubeless with Stans. I use the Maxxis rim strips and 2 scoops of Stans. No leaks and, more importantly, no flats yet.
I find that Stans doesn't work in the winter freezes or something. It starts to leak out the rim tire seal and wont quit. For me any way.:mad::banghead:

multiaxial

02-15-2008, 10:05 AM

I find that Stans doesn't work in the winter freezes or something. It starts to leak out the rim tire seal and wont quit. For me any way.:mad::banghead:

Stans is ammonia-based so it's not as though it will freeze. Do the tires seal up fine in the summer and begin to leak in the winter? I have studded and non-studded tires that I run year-round w/ Stans w/o issue.

bikemike

02-15-2008, 08:23 PM

Yea everthing is fine in the summer but come winter it wont seal no mattter what I do. I do ride alot in the winter (just not this winter:mad:)

DareDevilDarin

05-15-2008, 02:35 PM

I have developed a 1/2 inch thick foam liner I am placing the patent on this summer and slips in side the tire in seconds and works very well as a liner that compresses once tire is aired up and have never had a flat running my paddle's all though out the winter on every surface possible will be on the market this fall and should be priced less than the torn resistant tubes and much lighter! keep an eye on 4dsnowbike.com for details,
tube less rims with tire slim works quite well also, just a bit messy and need compressed air to seat the bead,