Alloy nipples; don't be afraid

[Pete Hamer]

If you are concerned about having wheels built with alloy nipples because the nipples will seize to the spokes, don't be. All you have to do is use anti-seize on the spoke/nipple threads when building the wheel. While anti-seize can be messy to work with, it is only a problem during the wheel building process and is not a good reason to forego using it. There is a form of anti-seize that is less messy than the silver and copper version and doesn't transfer from your fingers to everything you touch. It is food grade anti-seize, it's white and it cleans up easily. If you have wheels with alloy nipples that weren't built using anti-seize you can avoid thread seizing by putting a drop of oil, like tri-flow, on the nipples once or twice a year.:)

[Beau]

Good advice! It's always a good idea to drop lube on the nipples (;)) at LEAST a couple times a year, or every time you clean or tune your bike.

My opinion on alloy nipples will never change though. It's just not worth all the trouble involved to lose a little bit of weight. Alloy nipples strip easier, break more often and they cost more!

[Pete Hamer]

Link to food grade anti-seize website. Sais it is ideal for use on stainless steel (same thing spokes are made out of).
http://www.saftlok.com/safteze/antiseiz/food.htm




http://www.parktool.com/images/common/shim.gifhttp://www.parktool.com/images/common/shim.gifhttp://www.parktool.com/images/common/shim.gifhttp://www.parktool.com/images/products/burst_new_small.jpg ITEM # SW-40
Four-Sided Spoke Wrench

http://www.parktool.com/products/detail.asp?cat=16&item=SW%2D40

rounding out a nipple won't ever happen with good tools, and good technique.

If you order DT competition (2.0-1.8-2.0) in black they come with alloy nipples for a buck or two more than the DT comp silver with brass nipples.

[Wheels]

Many of us old-timers like to use Phil's Tenacious Oil with alloy nipples. You dip your spoke ends in a little vat of it.

Allow nipples won't break if they have some prep or Phil on them, keep the road salt off helps, and keeping the wheels tensioned properly.

If they do break, due to a stick or a pedal - alloys are nicer IMO because they won't tweak your rim or pull out an eyelet.

I was using the Spline Drives for quite awhile, if they're still available - they're the best. They are machined with better threads than most, and they have a silicone coating inside that helps fight the corrosion issue.

They come with a handy keychain spoke tool, but the biggest drawback is that you may not have it with you when you need it - and shops don't usually have one.

[berrywise]

Or just use brass nipples and not have to worry :D The weight savings is so rediculous that it is really kind of funny to even be heard talking about.

Brass Nipples are piece of mind.

[Ala Carte]

I was using the Spline Drives for quite awhile, if they're still available - they're the best. They are machined with better threads than most, and they have a silicone coating inside that helps fight the corrosion issue.

They come with a handy keychain spoke tool, but the biggest drawback is that you may not have it with you when you need it - and shops don't usually have one.

Yo Wheels,
I've got 32 gold 14g spline drive nips with your name all over them. I've got both spoke keys too, the little consumer one and the Park look-a-like.

[mtnbykr]

I was using the Spline Drives for quite awhile...

glad you liked them, i don't have good karma w/ these nips. i'd give you my spares and wrenches too, but i've still got a pair of wheels built w/ them and they'll go to the new owner of the bike when i sell it.

[Pete Hamer]

Many of us old-timers like to use Phil's Tenacious Oil with alloy nipples. You dip your spoke ends in a little vat of it.

Allow nipples won't break if they have some prep or Phil on them, keep the road salt off helps, and keeping the wheels tensioned properly.

If they do break, due to a stick or a pedal - alloys are nicer IMO because they won't tweak your rim or pull out an eyelet.

I was using the Spline Drives for quite awhile, if they're still available - they're the best. They are machined with better threads than most, and they have a silicone coating inside that helps fight the corrosion issue.

They come with a handy keychain spoke tool, but the biggest drawback is that you may not have it with you when you need it - and shops don't usually have one.

I love those splined nipples. My wife's bike has them. The company that made them for bikes moved onto the moto market. I've built a couple moto wheels with them. Interesting how Mavic and Spinergy/Spox wheels have the same thing now.

[Pete Hamer]

Or just use brass nipples and not have to worry :D The weight savings is so rediculous that it is really kind of funny to even be heard talking about.

Brass Nipples are piece of mind.

You're persistant aren't you Scott. I thought you'd like this thread. I started it for you so we wouldn't have to hijack that other one.:)

Like Sheeley said though, alloy nipples are piece of mind. If you get a stick caught in your wheel while you are riding the alloy nipple will give before the rim or hub gives(usually). Kinda like a replaceable der hanger.

Alloy nipples are piece of mind.:banana:

[berrywise]

You're persistant aren't you Scott. I thought you'd like this thread. I started it for you so we wouldn't have to hijack that other one.:)

Like Sheeley said though, alloy nipples are piece of mind. If you get a stick caught in your wheel while you are riding the alloy nipple will give before the rim or hub gives(usually). Kinda like a replaceable der hanger.

Alloy nipples are piece of mind.:banana:

Hah I was gonna say the same thing about you! Starting a new thread and all. To be honest I really just own stock in a brass nipple manufacturer. :)

[tedsti]

If you are going to use alloy nipples, you will have better luck with 15g threaded end. The wall thickness of the nipples gets too small with 14g spokes and makes them easier to strip. This is part of the reasoning behind the supercomp spokes.

[Pete Hamer]

If you are going to use alloy nipples, you will have better luck with 15g threaded end. The wall thickness of the nipples gets too small with 14g spokes and makes them easier to strip. This is part of the reasoning behind the supercomp spokes.

The reason for the 1.8mm threaded end on Supercomps is so that the head of the nipple has more material and won't "pop off" from the higher stresses of braking created by disc brakes. This is one of those ridiculous "fixing a theoretical problem that doesn't exist in real world applications" marketing gimmmics. The two weakest parts of a spoke are the bend and the thraeds. A 1.8mm thread will have less thread engagemnet than a 2.0mm thread and thus be weaker.

[Beau]

Or just use brass nipples and not have to worry :D The weight savings is so rediculous that it is really kind of funny to even be heard talking about.

Brass Nipples are piece of mind.

:jumpy: Amen brotha:jumpy:

[Pete Hamer]

#21
Tyson Meyer
Ala Carte
Journeyman



Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: West St Paul
Posts: 91

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Hamer
Sure it is. Especially when there is absolutely no reason to add 45 grams by using brass nipples. Brass nipples offer no advantage to xc wheels with eyelets on the rim. Quote

I absolutely agree with you Pete. Alloy nips are the way to go. I have never once had a problem in 12 years of wheel building.

[tedsti]

By stripping, I meant the threads not the outside. The wall of the nipple is very thin on a 2.0 mm and doesn't provide as strong of support for the threads. The threaded joint on 1.8 is actually stronger.

The two weakest parts of a spoke are the bend and the thraeds. A 1.8mm thread will have less thread engagemnet than a 2.0mm thread and thus be weaker.

[Beau]

Like Sheeley said though, alloy nipples are piece of mind. If you get a stick caught in your wheel while you are riding the alloy nipple will give before the rim or hub gives(usually).


But I like breaking stuff and when people break stuff, I'm a mechanic!

Plus, if your rims or hubs go from a stick in the spokes, your parts are to lightweight or REALLY cheap.

We do this testing thing at work when we have a bike to trash. We test the strength of wheels and frames.
Basically it starts out by putting on aprons and protective eyeware. Then clamp the bike that will be detroyed into your Park Tool's professional stand.

-Next, find yourself an old broom handle, pipe or like object (We had a REALLY strong wooden broom handle that I swear was steel).

-Now all you have to do is shift the bike into it's highest gear and get that rear wheel humming as fast as you can.

-Now for the testing. Once the wheel is spinning as fast you can get it to go, toss the broom handle into the rear wheel and the fun begins!

Brass nipples will break before most hubs break for sure. The rims are a bit different though. We have had a lof of the nipples pull through the rim. But most of the time the nipples break.

Try it for yourself!

[berrywise]

-Now all you have to do is shift the bike into it's highest gear and get that rear wheel humming as fast as you can.


Now that's my kinda shop!

[Pete Hamer]

By stripping, I meant the threads not the outside. The wall of the nipple is very thin on a 2.0 mm and doesn't provide as strong of support for the threads. The threaded joint on 1.8 is actually stronger.

A spoke is essentially a long bolt, a nipple is the nut. A 5x.8 bolt will have less thread surface area than a 6x1. The i.d to o.d. thickness of the nut has no bearing on how much thread surface there is on the bolt and nut. A larger diameter bolt will have a greater surface area than a thinner diameter bolt.

[Pete Hamer]

Brass nipples will break before most hubs break for sure. The rims are a bit different though. We have had a lof of the nipples pull through the rim. But most of the time the nipples break.


proving my point that an alloy nipple is more likely to save the rim:)

[bigwheel]

A spoke is essentially a long bolt, a nipple is the nut. A 5x.8 bolt will have less thread surface area than a 6x1. The i.d to o.d. thickness of the nut has no bearing on how much thread surface there is on the bolt and nut. A larger diameter bolt will have a greater surface area than a thinner diameter bolt.

Not quite a fair comparison. Bigger nuts usually have bigger outer edges and require bigger wrenches, thus there is more metal in a nut that is used with a bigger bolt.

With spoke nipples, the outside diameter is relatively constant. So, a bigger spoke (bolt) diameter means that there is less metal surrounding the nipple threads and keeping them in place. So, it is easier for the nipple to stretch or deform, and strip.

In an extreme example, suppose the spoke was 3mm. Then, the nipple would have little or no metal, so it would instantly strip.

[manual63]

My opinion on alloy nipples is mixed. I used to run them on my BMX racing bike back in the day. Sure, people say it's not a huge weight savings, but it's rotational weight savings. If you are going to shave grams anywhere, the wheels are the place to do it.

The one issue I had was that they would strip out sometimes during wheel tweaking crashes or tricks. One bad landing and ping...ping....there goes a couple of spoke nipples. The nice thing, the nipple would strip before the spoke would break....so put in some new nipples, true her up and go. Unless you bent the rim really bad that is.

I think if you are a racer and need to shave time, sure....go for it and spend the money. If you are anyone else, why bother? Especially if you are hard on stuff. I don't run them on any bike of mine. Get double butted spokes to shave a little weight if you want. But brass nipples seem to do the trick and they do it well.

[Pete Hamer]

Not quite a fair comparison. Bigger nuts usually have bigger outer edges and require bigger wrenches, thus there is more metal in a nut that is used with a bigger bolt.

With spoke nipples, the outside diameter is relatively constant. So, a bigger spoke (bolt) diameter means that there is less metal surrounding the nipple threads and keeping them in place. So, it is easier for the nipple to stretch or deform, and strip.

In an extreme example, suppose the spoke was 3mm. Then, the nipple would have little or no metal, so it would instantly strip.

But that just isn't a problem with alloy nipples, brass nipples, 1.8 or 2.0. So while it makes for a fun engineering/physics debate it doesn't apply to our situation. Again, this is a theoretical problem that doesn't present itself in practice. :)

[Beau]

Not quite a fair comparison. Bigger nuts usually have bigger outer edges and require bigger wrenches, thus there is more metal in a nut that is used with a bigger bolt.
With spoke nipples, the outside diameter is relatively constant. So, a bigger spoke (bolt) diameter means that there is less metal surrounding the nipple threads and keeping them in place. So, it is easier for the nipple to stretch or deform, and strip.
In an extreme example, suppose the spoke was 3mm. Then, the nipple would have little or no metal, so it would instantly strip.

Wow, technical stuff.

All I know is, no matter how careful you are...no matter how much lube you dump on...no matter how much anti seize you use...
...brass nipples are still the the way to go. :banana:

Getting things caught in the spokes doesn't happen very often, in fact I have never had it happen once in 14 years, AND I'M FROM BRAINERD!!!! The trails are covered in sticks!
Alloy nipples are like a high maintenance women. Yeah the look good and you can tell all your friends about them, but they're expensive and the problems they bring with them just isn't worth it...:p

[Ala Carte]

Wow, technical stuff.


, but they're expensive and the problems they bring with them just isn't worth it...:p

Um, what problems do they bring? Oh yeah, a little lighter weight wheel, and ah, oh wait, there isn't any problems that come with them. I've built my fair share of wheels over 13 years and have never experienced any problems with alloy nips. IMO, if you're a weight weeny and are using DT Comps or Revs go with alloys, if you don't care about weight and want a cheaper wheel build, go with brass. Now put this thread to rest, I'll build your wheels with whatever damn nips you want.

[berrywise]

Um, what problems do they bring? Oh yeah, a little lighter weight wheel, and ah, oh wait, there isn't any problems that come with them. I've built my fair share of wheels over 13 years and have never experienced any problems with alloy nips. IMO, if you're a weight weeny and are using DT Comps or Revs go with alloys, if you don't care about weight and want a cheaper wheel build, go with brass. Now put this thread to rest, I'll build your wheels with whatever damn nips you want.


Alloy nipples lack the durability of brass nipples. That alone negates any weight savings. The majority of mountain bikers don't work in shops, they don't build their own wheels, and they don't always take perfect care of their gear. The durability factor negates any weight savings. As for the nipple breaking before you pull a spoke through the wheel. In all my years riding I've never had it happen and it is a rare sight to see someone bring in a wheel that had it happen.

That should be the end of the thread :)

[Beau]

That should be the end of the thread :)

Oh...OH...Not yet!

I will ALWAYS build my own wheels! ;)

I ride mountain bikes for a workout, so I don't care if my bike weighs an once more (the difference in nipple weight is only about 50 grams give or take).

Brass may be less money, but it still provides a stronger, more RELIABLE wheel.

Read what this man has to say. If you know the name, you know wheels! http://yarchive.net/bike/aluminum_nipples.html

[Pete Hamer]

Oh...OH...Not yet!

I will ALWAYS build my own wheels! ;)

I ride mountain bikes for a workout, so I don't care if my bike weighs an once more (the difference in nipple weight is only about 50 grams give or take).

Brass may be less money, but it still provides a stronger, more RELIABLE wheel.

Read what this man has to say. If you know the name, you know wheels! http://yarchive.net/bike/aluminum_nipples.html

Hopefully we can continue this discussion without people getting all pooty faced :)
That Jobst Brandt quote is from 1998, a little behind the times maybe. I've never had alloy nipples fatigue before the spokes or rim on any of my wheels.
Alloy nipples may not be for everyone but they can be used without any adverse effects. It just takes a bit of knowledge, proper tools, and good mechanical form-things that we all use anyway right? For those that want to save the weight I say "don't be afraid". If you don't care then no big deal.

[Standard]

Alloy Nipples are great, if you like to rebuild your wheels every year or two. The first and last set of wheels I ever built up for myself with alloy nips started popping nipples left and right, before any spokes went.

As with anything, there's a trade-off.

[Ala Carte]

Alloy Nipples are great, if you like to rebuild your wheels every year or two. The first and last set of wheels I ever built up for myself with alloy nips started popping nipples left and right, before any spokes went.

As with anything, there's a trade-off.

That's too bad. Maybe there where other factors that led to the premature failure of your wheels.

[Pete Hamer]

Alloy nipples are freguenlty used on motocross wheels. Yes motocross and MTB wheels are differnet, but it just goes to show that alloy nipples can be used in higher torque applications. When people have problems with alloy nipples on their wheels it's usually not the fault of the alloy nipples. There's always a reason besides the fact that the nipples are alloy. The cross pattern can have an effect, the spoke tension, rim strength, etc.

http://www.sapim.be/index.php?st=products&sub=nipples

http://www.sapim.be/index.php?st=checklist&taal=uk

[Beau]

(Please keep in mind I'm just having fun here debating. It's part of being a mechanic right?)

I don't think comparing motocross wheels to MTB wheels is fair though. Motocross alloy nipples have a LOT more meat to them.

What do you usually tension wheels with alloy nipples at?

[tedsti]

The only thing that matters is that alloy nips are available in red. nuff said.

[Beau]

The only thing that matters is that alloy nips are available in purple nuff said.


Fixed it for you! ;)

[TML]

The only thing that matters is that alloy nips are available in red. nuff said.

WooHoo!! Original spec. on my '02 RM Blizzard!

I've been riding those alloy nipples for almost 4 seasons now and I've yet to have a problem with the nipples. I've broken a spoke at the hub and started to round one of the nipples when I was bringing the wheel back into true but that was quickly solved by using a 4 cornered spoke wrench.

[Pete Hamer]

(Please keep in mind I'm just having fun here debating. It's part of being a mechanic right?)

I don't think comparing motocross wheels to MTB wheels is fair though. Motocross alloy nipples have a LOT more meat to them.

What do you usually tension wheels with alloy nipples at?

These discussions are not only fun for mechs but very useful also.

In my original post about moto wheels I acknowledged that I was not making a direct comparison. The point was that alloy can be used for nipples in higher torque/stress situations and that it's not the aluminum that is at fault when something goes wrong. Instead we need to consider the design, assembly, maintenance, application, etc.

[Standard]

That's too bad. Maybe there where other factors that led to the premature failure of your wheels.

Like what, riding my bike?

[steef]

I have found that not riding wheels keeps them in great shape. ;)

[Ala Carte]

Like what, riding my bike?

I'm pretty sure all wheels fail from riding. I've never seen one fail sitting in the garage, except when maybe Dad runs it over.

[Standard]

I'm pretty sure all wheels fail from riding. I've never seen one fail sitting in the garage, except when maybe Dad runs it over.

sorry, I forgot the </sarcasm> tags...

[berrywise]

I'm building up new wheels....ya know what that means......BRASS NIPPLES THAT FUNKY NIPPLE. Put your left leg down - your right leg up tilt your head back and finish the cup. Grain based lubricants are the number one needed shop tool.

[dvo1]

Brass, Al. is just used when I want to see how fast I can fold a wheel.

[manual63]

I used to use alloy nipples on my BMX racing bikes. The main reason was because you always got a pedal, bar, foot, or who knows what into your spokes while racing. The alloy nipple will easily break in this case, saving both your rim and maybe spoke. Spoke is a cheap easy replacement. New rim because a nipple pulled through the hole in the rim, rather than breaking, not so good.

Since then, I tried allow nipples on a mountain bike and had nothing but problems with them breaking and making it easier to bend a rim on hard landings. So I use brass every time now. I lube all nipples (even my own sometimes.....:shocked:) before I build a wheel.....alloy or not.

[transplant]

......BRASS NIPPLES THAT FUNKY NIPPLE. Put your left leg down - your right leg up tilt your head back and finish the cup

Yo, baby, whassup?