Trail Poachers Pictures Thread

[Wheels]

Post pictures here of trail poachers, those people who ride the trails when they are obviously closed.

We'd like to see a cell-phone or camera pic of the culprits along with any damage to the trail that you see as a result of their actions.

Keep in mind, the closures can at times be ambiguous as the signs direct people that "trails closed when wet" - so don't be too anxious to just bag folks - but if you see fresh mud and damage, you got yourself a poacher.

Either way, the moderators will keep things in check.

[gopherhockey]

Can we move this elsewhere and include all trails?

[manual63]

Can we move this elsewhere and include all trails?

That's what I was thinking. Then have a link to it on the home page.....:D

[Wheels]

Sure, you guys have mod - do what 'ya want.

Let's keep close tabs on it though, I've already deleted one post.

[gopherhockey]

I moved it to the Get Involved area, but it could go elsewhere. I thought this would be a great place (as you stated) to get people to go out and have a little fun with the frustration we have had. Be safe, educate those poachers, don't get into any conflicts... and post those pics.

We should have a fair way to get them removed as well.. maybe someone joining MORC, coming out to trailwork? ;)

[bike>>rider]

Is one a "poacher" if he/she legitimately does not know better? We've probably all been there (I know I was before I found this site). Perhaps the photographer should converse with the perpetrator and try to make that determination. Seems a bit harsh (and perhaps a privacy invasion) for folks in that category (uneducated as to trail riding etiquette). For those that should know better, let 'em have it. Just my 2 cents. Admittedly, I haven't donated the blood and sweat to make these trails that you all have.

My guess is that anyone whose pic gets posted probably never joins MORC, but I could be wrong.

[gopherhockey]

If a guy seems legit about being sorry and willing to leave I wouldn't even bother posting the picture... you are right, people do make mistakes.

In the case of Leb if the orange fences are up and someone is back there its going to take a little explaining tho. Some trails might not be so obvious.

I'd post the ones that refuse to leave when asked... surprisingly enough of the poachers I have seen most don't listen and do their best to get away and keep riding. Thats a good case for a picture.

I say keep it light and fun and we should be ok... give people the benefit wherever possible and TRY make it educational if at all possible. There definitely have been many that are probably reading this right now that migt have made the list even a year ago but are now willing to wait...

I even admit many many years ago I rode against the directional signs at Battle Creek... thats when I thought MORC was a group that made and donated signs.

[stoneage]

This is getting us into the 'photo cop' category, and there will probably be a lawsuit by some righteous citizen who thinks that his civil rights are being violated, because someone else is riding his bike and wearing his jersey and helmet. I have GOT to remember my camera. Must remember, must remember. ;)

[gopherhockey]

This is getting us into the 'photo cop' category, and there will probably be a lawsuit by some righteous citizen who thinks that his civil rights are being violated, because someone else is riding his bike and wearing his jersey and helmet. I have GOT to remember my camera. Must remember, must remember. ;)

We'll have to do the ol' smudge over the face thing to protect the obviously inncent ;)

[stoneage]

Is one a "poacher" if he/she legitimately does not know better?
The runner I tried to educate thought that the rule only applied to bikers, but continued on his run anyway, after I explained to him the damage he was doing.

[bike>>rider]

Right, orange fences is pretty blatant - I agree!!! Even someone as slow as me would understand that meant DO NOT RIDE!

Oh yeah, photocops were ruled unconst. I got one of those dang tickets and paid - maybe that's why I'm sensitive - ha!

[Wheels]

Like I said, the mods will have to keep an eye on it - we don't want to be trail cops - but when someone is clearly poaching - well, I say lynch 'em :)

I'd say there are at least three clear cases where it's hard to dispute:

1. You're on the trail and there's fresh mud dripping from your bike.

2. You've been informed on the spot, and you continue to ride anyway.

3. The fence or sign is up and you go around it.

Those three have been the biggest problems.

I agree, a trail work session gets you out of the doghouse.

[Beau]

:eyeroll:

Are you serious?

While we're at it, let's start a pic post on people who don't pick up after their pets.

http://www.dogdoo.com/images/Honey.jpg

[Wheels]

:eyeroll:

Are you serious?

While we're at it, let's start a pic post on people who don't pick up after their pets.


Hey, we're out of options - if anyone has better idea we're all over it.

[gopherhockey]

:eyeroll:

Are you serious?

I think for the reasons Shawn mentioned it would be easy to be serious about this. A lot of people here put in a lot of effort into the trails and its really no fun to clean up other people's messes. I know I've gone through all the phases, including the "I don't care anymore let someone else maintain the trails" phase.

There are a few simple reasons why people should get their picture posted here if we were lucky to get one.

I think it can be done in a not-so-serious tone though. Think of it as one of the only releases available to frustrated trail workers.... its much better than boobytrapping the trails.

[gopherhockey]

While we're at it, let's start a pic post on people who don't pick up after their pets.



We don't have a thread on that one (yet). However, the idea has been discussed to pick up the droppings and dispose of them on said owners car. That would be more fun, as normally pictures of pet doodoo makes people ill. :sick:

;)

[Wheels]

In Minneapolis we're being evaluated in part on our ability to police ourselves and influence better behavior. As more and more riders visit the area we're finding this harder to do - as much as we try to communicate via this forum, though our efforts such as newsletters and seminars - yet some people just don't care. Snubbing their noses to our reps right there on the trails.

The kind of riders who say F-it, are not our community, and we don't like their attitude. So short of spiking the trail (a ridiculous idea) or getting to the point where the Popo start ticketing (can you imagine that, I don't want to) - this is our only option.

We'll try to keep it fun, but man - just use some common sense and don't ride a muddy trail. Especially if one of the land managers tells you you're not supposed to be on the trail right to your face.

Anything less is just being obstinate.

[stefan]

What about making a gallery for it, or something? Then people can verify repeat offenders in the comments, etc.

[stoneage]

pick up the droppings
When I was on the Crystal park board, one of the other members picked up some dog poop, followed the dog owner home, rang the doorbell and said, "Your dog left this in a public park, and I'm sure you want it back."

[Beau]

Hey, we're out of options - if anyone has better idea we're all over it.

It's obvious the people riding are not members or MORC (meaning they are not on this site), and probably won't care if we take pics of them and get all angry and upset (it will probably cause more problems).

Let's face it, it's a problem. It's like littering on the highways. No matter what you do, it isn't gonna go away. Yeah, it sucks, but taking pics (who brings a camera with them on a ride anyway?) of them is only going to make things worse.

I personally think, no matter how "fun" and "not so serious" it is, it could become a bigger problem than you're looking for.

Just my 2 pennies.

[manual63]

When the trails look like this (http://www.morcmtb.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=2393&size=big&cat=511&limit=recent), they are too wet to ride.

This is a pic of Theo today as we went and observed the trail. We found quite a few people about to ride the trails and we informed them and they were very receptive and left. We even asked them to come to a trailwork session to help learn more about what goes into a trail.

There were a few people who I would like to call....well....just plain selfish. One of them was a racer looking guy who came up the trail and saw us. He then turned around a went backwards out of the trail to keep us from confronting him. We didn't get a picture, lucky fool, but we saw him a little later and he tried to claim he didn't know the trail was closed. Okay, so why did you run as soon as you saw us? Some people....and a racer dude....I just don't get why they are out to be selfish and ruin the trails for everyone else. I have no respect for people like him...and I know he is out there a lot. Next time we see him, riding mud or not, we plan to get a photo of him and post it anyway. I hope he has his sponsors Jersey on when we do.....:)

The photo only shows the little damage that is being done. There are some much worse areas that are getting more damaged because riders keep riding when the trail is too wet. Please stay off the trails when they are wet. Riding them when they are wet is just going to make them take longer to dry in the future. Please go the the IMBA website (http://www.imba.com/) and read up on this, it's important.

We will be out in force with cameras. I want people to see the poachers who ruin the trails we all love to ride!!

[Wheels]

It's obvious the people riding are not members or MORC (meaning they are not on this site), and probably won't care if we take pics of them and get all angry and upset (it will probably cause more problems).

Let's face it, it's a problem. It's like littering on the highways. No matter what you do, it isn't gonna go away. Yeah, it sucks, but taking pics (who brings a camera with them on a ride anyway?) of them is only going to make things worse.

I personally think, no matter how "fun" and "not so serious" it is, it could become a bigger problem than you're looking for.

Just my 2 pennies.

Maybe, I guess we'll see if we start a sh*t storm with this little exercise... but I've yet to here any MOCA or MORC board members chime in with their disapproval - we're all tired of preaching to the choir and working when we could be riding.

[Sevadari]

Right, orange fences is pretty blatant - I agree!!! Even someone as slow as me would understand that meant DO NOT RIDE!

Oh yeah, photocops were ruled unconst. I got one of those dang tickets and paid - maybe that's why I'm sensitive - ha!
I'm no legal scholar, but I don't think the unconstitutionality of the photocops is applicable here...

As I read the court's decision, Minneapolis' photocop approach was struck down precisely b/c the cops couldn't verify that it was indeed the owner of the vehicle that was actually driving when the picture was taken.

In this case, if you've got a picture of a poacher, well...you've got 'em, caught red-handed in the act!!! :banana: What else can they say? :D

In the small number of cases where you're lucky enough to catch someone wearing a sponsor's jersey, I like the idea of following up with their sponsors since no sponsor wants to be associated with destructive practices like that. Hit 'em where it hurts...in the pocketbook.

I agree though that in most cases you'll be best served by keeping this all pretty light hearted and approaching the "policing" of the trails as an opportunity to educate.

[Wheels]

I'm no legal scholar, but I don't think the unconstitutionality of the photocops is applicable here...

As I read the court's decision, Minneapolis' photocop approach was struck down precisely b/c the cops couldn't verify that it was indeed the owner of the vehicle that was actually driving when the picture was taken.

In this case, if you've got a picture of a poacher, well...you've got 'em, caught red-handed in the act!!! :banana: What else can they say? :D

In the small number of cases where you're lucky enough to catch someone wearing a sponsor's jersey, I like the idea of following up with their sponsors since no sponsor wants to be associated with destructive practices like that. Hit 'em where it hurts...in the pocketbook.

I agree though that in most cases you'll be best served by keeping this all pretty light hearted and approaching the "policing" of the trails as an opportunity to educate.

I agree, I think we can do this in a good way.

Maybe one place were missing an opportunity to educate is in the shops.

1. Posters showing how we close, why, what the results of riding wet are.

2. Getting shops to refuse to work on muddy bikes (mechanics would be behind that one).

3. Talking to shops about requiring their racers, club riders to follow the rules of the trail, or at the very least make sure they brief them. Jersey or not, many of us know who rides for who.

I made reference on another board to a couple of team riders from a local shop (in team kit) who were spotted by a MORC official riding the river bottoms when they were closed (signed, fenced, and the official told the riders the trails were closed). I had a call the next day asking why I posted this on a public forum, and to please not do it again - to simply notify the shop and that they would take care of it.

It's effective, but let's try to work through the shops and not against them.

We could also ask the media to help out.

And foremost, it's time for us as MORC to institute a more consistent method of closing the trails - so that riders can expect the same kind of on-site notifications at all trails.

We're close to that, and MOCA is going to be getting some help from the city on this in the form of permanent fixtures.

[Beau]

2. Getting shops to refuse to work on muddy bikes (mechanics would be behind that one).

I was thinking that earlier! I HATE when people bring in a bike full of mud and just want a basic tune. I'd be happy to ask them where they had their awesome ride at and then turn them away when they bust themselves!

[Wheels]

I think I hated cleaning up the mess under my stand more than cleaning the bike (when I was a wrench) ... a garden hose while the mud is still wet does the trick, and is considerate of your bike mechanic.

[stoneage]

the people riding are not members or MORC (meaning they are not on this site)
Two of the people I busted the other night knew better. I will have my camera with me.

[bike>>rider]

I'm no legal scholar, but I don't think the unconstitutionality of the photocops is applicable here...


Of course that is true. I wasn't suggesting they were equivalent - only mentioned it because somebody had brought up the photocops.

The photocops were unconstitutional because the presumption of innocence was replaced with a presumption of guilt, leaving the car owner with the burden of proving he/she was not the driver. I'm still hoping to get my fine back!!

In the extreme cases like Shawn, Shad & John mention and where anyone would/should know that the trails are closed, I agree that this could be a good deterrent.

[tedsti]

They may not be on MORC, but their friends might. I think the best thing to come of this if for someone here to spot their buddy Billy-Bob on the Poacher Page of Shame and ridicule them until they cry.

It's obvious the people riding are not members or MORC (meaning they are not on this site), and probably won't care if we take pics of them and get all angry and upset (it will probably cause more problems).

[gopherhockey]

I think this is an important enough issue to start getting more attention and momentum within MORC. This means MORC board attention, member assistance, and even funding if necessary. We can build build build or sell sell sell but we're hurting ourselves if we don't do what we can to remedy this situation. At this point I don't think we are doing enough.

I like the consistency approach if it is possible. I also would like to see that our other less used trails don't suffer because there are no efforts happening there. To really drive the point home a rider is going to need to find a trail CLOSED wherever they go... and we need to find a way to eliminate the ease of riding around fences etc.

I'm not suggesting we shift all our focus or require people to always stand guard... but that we find ways to do more than we are now with a handful of people and a few signs or orange fence material.

We did a trail fairy campaign... how about a trail poacher campaign? Posters of "the evil trail poacher" etc. Put em' in the shops, educate the shops, maybe even get it in some local media... just one thought.

I think the trail stewards and dirt bosses should get together on this and see if we can get more united in our efforts as well.

[berrywise]

(who brings a camera with them on a ride anyway?)

I take offense to that comment :D


My take is that I don't see this anything more than a way for certain users to vent their anger at these numbskulls. I think if anything it will only act as a reason for people who already might have some issues with the club to further their disagreement.

If you are going to post pictures of people make sure to take pictures of the ruts in the trail that they made. I think that would go farther to giving reason why it's a dumb idea to ride these trails when they are wet.

[manual63]

who brings a camera with them on a ride anyway?

It's pretty easy now that I have my Camelbak Mayhem. I almost always have my camera with now.

[Pete Hamer]

In the small number of cases where you're lucky enough to catch someone wearing a sponsor's jersey, I like the idea of following up with their sponsors since no sponsor wants to be associated with destructive practices like that. Hit 'em where it hurts...in the pocketbook.


Just be aware that people can get almost any team jersey or shop logo clothing even if they aren't associated with that shop/sponsor. Be careful not to vilinize a company because some yahoo wore their gear while riding a muddy trail.

[bigwheel]

It's pretty easy now that I have my Camelbak Mayhem. I almost always have my camera with now.

Great! Then if you catch yourself riding when you shouldn't, you can take a picture of yourself and post it here. :crazy:

[transplant]

How about getting a couple of legitimate MORCers who know better to pose for a mug shot? Muddy them and their bikes up a bit, snap a photo, make a poster and distribute it to bike shops. Add the warning "Get caught riding muddy trails and you could be here next!" Or something to that effect. That way the "sensitive" poachers can't get their Lycra in a wad and the point gets made?

Then just update the poster as neccessary. This way they see the results and have been warned.

[mara]

There are a lot of people who ride muddy trails who just don't know any better. However, there are a lot of people who ride muddy trails who do know better and just think they are important enough to trash the trails for everyone else.

I'd like to expand our on-trail education, for people who truly don't know better. A friendly introduction and talk may just lead to an active volunteer down the road. We should contact team sponsors, inform them of the problem, and ask for their help encouraging their racers not to ride wet trails. We can also do a better job of getting the word out about trails in community newsletters and other small publications that affect the areas directly around our trails. This would let the neighbors know what they should and shouldn't be seeing ( yay, proactive neighbors! ) and let parents know when their children should find other entertainment.

And for those selfish few, yes, if logic doesn't work, maybe embarrassment will. I certainly hope so. I'd much rather spend my time building new trails or riding my bike than cleaning up your mess.

[Sevadari]

Just be aware that people can get almost any team jersey or shop logo clothing even if they aren't associated with that shop/sponsor. Be careful not to vilinize a company because some yahoo wore their gear while riding a muddy trail.
Good point indeed...I'm just suggesting that we use whatever "reasonable" avenues we have at our disposal.

On that note, I really think a lot can be done through local shops when people are getting introduced to the sport (now, those that have been riding for a while and know better...that's a whole other ball of wax!). Especially when you're talking about a group of people that are just getting introduced to the sport, LBS staff can make a real big impression on newbies and set the tone for how new riders think about and experience the trails.

Hey, wait a minute...maybe you could put together a MORC Welcome Wagon Kit type of packet that could go out to the LBSs for when folks buy their first bike. It could have general info about MORC, info on trail sustainability and the reasons behind closures, info on riders clinics, etc.

That way the whole notion of trail maintenance could be put in a positive light and MORC can be seen as a source of good information and knowledge. Might even be a good way to increase membership!

PS For those that might be wondering (i.e. practice what you preach...) I'm just waiting for my next student funding installment to come through so I can plunk down my own money for a MORC membership ;););). Money's a bit tight right now for this grad student with a family of four!!! :cryin: I do try to support in other ways though, like trail work, educating others, referring them to MORC, etc.

[FSSS]

Hey, wait a minute...maybe you could put together a MORC Welcome Wagon Kit type of packet that could go out to the LBSs for when folks buy their first bike. It could have general info about MORC, info on trail sustainability and the reasons behind closures, info on riders clinics, etc.


How about one of those flyer type things that people put on your door at your house... the ones with the hole in the top... kinda like the "do not disturb" signs at hotels? They'd probably fit very nicely on the handlebars.

MORC could ask retailers to put one on all their mountain bikes on the sale floor.

[manual63]

MORC could ask retailers to put one on all their mountain bikes on the sale floor.

It would be nice if IMBA and bike companies got together and made this a standard issue on bikes. Bikes come with an owners manual and other info and it would be cool if they came with a IMBA card hanging on the bars. Sure, we can do this locally too, but I would like to see it at a higher level.

[biking_stickman]

Can we move the "trail conditions" to the front and center of the webpage?

That along with simple red (closed), yellow, green (open) icons may make it easier for new website visitors to get the information they care about (Are the trails open?).

I find it very hard to trust the current trail conditions (most are not updated) and when I am heading out the door for a ride I have no interest in reading a bunch of irrelevant posts in each trails conditions thread.

Here is an example of my suggestion:

[FSSS]

We did a trail fairy campaign... how about a trail poacher campaign? Posters of "the evil trail poacher" etc. Put em' in the shops, educate the shops, maybe even get it in some local media... just one thought.

Personally I like this idea much more than posting pictures of people on the internet.

Promote the idea that poachers are bad, irresponsible, and selfish.
Don't promote the identity of individuals that poach.

More promotion = more peer pressure.

By promoting the individuals you are making it very personal, which I know is your point, but I think it is not worth it. Poachers will take it as a personal attack and you will end up with some very pissed-off enemies of MORC. It doesn't matter how close you monitor a trail, if someone is retaliating against a personal attack they will succeed - and probably do more than just ride a wet trail.

Realize you will be escalating the situation by posting their pics. Expect drastic measures in response to drastic measures.

[ppgc]

Can we move the "trail conditions" to the front and center of the webpage?

That along with simple red (closed), yellow, green (open) icons may make it easier for new website visitors to get the information they care about (Are the trails open?).

I find it very hard to trust the current trail conditions (most are not updated) and when I am heading out the door for a ride I have no interest in reading a bunch of irrelevant posts in the each trails conditions thread.

Here is my suggestion:

Very cool Matt. I didn't even know that the Trail Conditions link was anything for about a year after I started looking at the site. :eyeroll:

-pete

[FSSS]

It sounds like the MPRB is OK with it, but I'm not sure this kind of policing would be OK with all land managers.

[Wheels]

Great ideas,

Part of the reason I started this thread was to spur this discussion - and I like what I'm hearing.

Hang tags with rules of the trail has been discussed at MORC before - I believe there is something in the works - but I like the idea of doing a campaign like the Trail Fairy, something that carries across all of our PR materials and other forms of education.

Education works. Lately I've been talking to riders who in the past were apathetic or indignant about our efforts - and I'm hearing them change their tune - talking in a new way about when it's appropriate to ride.

We're changing minds in the community, but now we need to reach out to those newer riders and those riders who have yet to come on board.

I think this kind of campaign could get us there.

[Uncle Leo]

It seems like a lot of the ideas here assume all MTBers read this website.
I don't think that's the case.

I think more signage, and more obvious signage could go a long way. Sure there's the issue of people going around the orange fencing, but nothing is going to stop them.
It's all the others, who show up to the trail and just start riding. Short of having someone posted to stop them, they're not going to have any idea that it's not OK to ride (hey the sun's out, right?).

[Wheels]

Short of having someone posted to stop them, they're not going to have any idea that it's not OK to ride (hey the sun's out, right?).

Even when we've had people on site people have been ignoring them and riding anyway.

[Beau]

Here's a better idea. Take a picture of their muddy bikes and what brand/model the bike is.

I remember people by their bikes more than their names and faces.

Shoot a picture of their bike and you'll know they wrecked something.

[gopherhockey]

Can we move the "trail conditions" to the front and center of the webpage?

That along with simple red (closed), yellow, green (open) icons may make it easier for new website visitors to get the information they care about (Are the trails open?).



Great suggestion! We do want to make the conditions area more friendly and promote the idea of frequent updates. Someone even contacted us that said they could probably make it so people could text message updates directly from cell phones to the site...

Anyone know how to set up a satellite relay webcam and weather station?

[ppgc]

Anyone know how to set up a satellite relay webcam and weather station?

If you are serious (which I doubt) I could help. :)

[stefan]

What about just making it easier to find out if a trail is open or closed? Not everyone has easy access to a web browser, but almost everyone has access to a phone. What about setting up an IVR system on a local phone number? Press 1 for trail conditions.. press 2 for information about joining, etc.. and have it tie in with the website to keep track of which trails are open?

Then, all you need to do is fire out laminated wallet cards to new bike owners with the phone number on one side, MORC website on the other.

Either way there will ALWAYS be someone that just plain doesn't give a rat's ass and will ride a trail when it's closed. What are our options with the MPRB/city?

Can we get a few people deputized enough that they can issue tickets for riding a closed trail, or can we pay an off-duty officer once in a while to walk the trail and tackle some suckas? (Maybe taser? Sweet!)

Can we start watching the Par 3 lot for bikers on closed trail days, and have the golf course tow their vehicle if they go ride on the trail?

:D

[gopherhockey]

If you are serious (which I doubt) I could help. :)

I'm *kinda* serious actually... how cool would that be!

[gopherhockey]

What about just making it easier to find out if a trail is open or closed? Not everyone has easy access to a web browser, but almost everyone has access to a phone. What about setting up an IVR system on a local phone number? Press 1 for trail conditions.. press 2 for information about joining, etc.. and have it tie in with the website to keep track of which trails are open?

I tried to find a system that could do that a few years back... kind of like the movie-phone thing.

We could allow various people to have update capabilities and anyone could call in. We could have other MORC updates as well.

Anyone know how this could be set up... and free if possible? ;)

[stefan]

There are some open source IVR software packages that I've seen, but most commercial stuff would probably be pretty costly. I'll do some looking and see if I can't find something that would work, and wouldn't be a huge pain to maintain.

[Tex]

It seems like a lot of the ideas here assume all MTBers read this website.
I don't think that's the case.

I think more signage, and more obvious signage could go a long way. Sure there's the issue of people going around the orange fencing, but nothing is going to stop them.
It's all the others, who show up to the trail and just start riding. Short of having someone posted to stop them, they're not going to have any idea that it's not OK to ride (hey the sun's out, right?).

I have to agree with Uncle Leo, we really need more signage up. Not that the people will always read it, but just so it's there. The same holds true for areas like Brownie Lake. Is Brownie legal to ride? I didn't think it was, but I rode past it a couple weeks ago and there's no signs saying it's off limits.

Maybe the idea of a MORC brochure isn't a bad one. Something that area shops and bike races could hand out, listing the great area trails and information on the MORC philosophy. I know from my years experience in area bike shops that most people that bought mountain bikes from me always asked "so where's the best place to ride around here?" I would usually tell them the River Bottoms. But, that would have been a perfect time to give them a MORC flier. Heck, maybe we make a book and charge for it? The old book "biking in Vikingland" used to be pretty popular.

I don't think the idea of posting pictures of the offenders is a viable option. Heck, most of them would probably think it was pretty cool to be a renegade. It would be better to try and educate them and make them understand. If that doesn't work, stand behind a tree with a 2x4 and knock em out when they ride by on the closed trail. :jumpy:

[Wheels]

I'm closing this thread...

This is a hot issue, but I think that what has really been exposed by all of this discussion is that our methods for closing and notifying the public can at times be a bit ambiguous (others times not so ambiguous - like when trail heads are fenced and signed).

There's no denying that there are some riders who simply ignore closings or ride when the trails are obviously too wet or closed with signs and fences - but I think it would be too easy for someone to get caught in the crossfire on this issue, and be publicly lambasted for riding when it was either ambiguous or inaccurate.

John Lundell and I promoted this thread primarily to encourage the discussion on what to do, and had hopes of us actually nailing someone riding over the fence (which happened more than once last week) - but we're skating on thin ice here.

John and I both have a great deal of personal time and effort into these trails, and we are both ultimately responsible for Theo and Leb as the current leaders of our groups, so I think we were both getting frustrated with our lack of options and blatant disregard for trails that were obviously closed with fencing and signs.

Ultimately, it's not up to us to target people for bad behavior, but I think we both wanted to spur the discussion past the "spike the trail" mentality and find a solution. There have been a lot of behind the scenes discussions going on this week with some of the more visible and entrenched members of our community about how best to address this issue, and if nothing else - the message has gone out that riding closed trails is not going to be tolerated any longer - it's time for people who have influence to get on board and promote the message.

At the same time, MORC has some work to do. The MORC Board is going to take up this issue and come up with a solution, we obviously need a better method for online notification, closure structures, on-site notification, and education.

There have been some good ideas put forth here, and I think that we've achieved the right kind of action without actually posting a pic of someone online. I suggest we keep it that way.. please do not post pics.

I knew that my creation of this thread would stir the pot, mission accomplished - now we need to do something positive about it.