GPS mapping of Leb

[tedsti]

Someone once mentioned having access to a backpack style GPS unit. We would like to get more up to date and accurate maps of Leb. Any ideas who this was?

[manual63]

Once I get the mapping figured out for Theo, I am willing to help out with some other trails. I have all the hardware and computer software to do it now....but getting section 6 ready and sent to the MPRB is priority for me right now. After that, I should be able to help.

[tedsti]

I think the biggest hurdle is getting accurate data taken. What are you using at Theo?

[manual63]

I think the biggest hurdle is getting accurate data taken. What are you using at Theo?

We have a new Garmin GPS with the latest sensors. It will be accurate, but when placing it on the map, you can set it to correct for any offset, which there usually is a few feet of to adjust for.

[destrago]

Ted,
I have a sweet program that will be GREAT for mapping. I need the stupid 4pin garmin -> 9pin serial cable. If anyone has one of those that I could borrow or buy for ~$10.00 let me know and then I can use my laptop and we can do things like mark where certain obstacles are in the trail, map out the entire trail, etc. I'll talk to you more about it tonight.

-Tony

[gopherhockey]

I think at Leb in order to get a decent map we're going to have to have a backpack or other professional unit as well as GPS software not normally available to the public. Dakota County probably has the topo we could use, the hardest will be finding someone with an accurate enough GPS unit.

I tried with a handheld once.. what a waste of time that was. Accurate to like 10 feet my a$$... more like 100 feet or worse.

[destrago]

John,

I've done some tricks with civilian gps when I was doing stuff with my job as a military contractor (i learned a whole lot about GPS while doing field survey work). If someone has a differential that's about as good as civilians can get. (Those are the 'backpack' units). If I can get out there before there are too many leaves on the trees. As for software, I have custom software (that I wrote) that takes the raw output of the GPS instead of the stupid 'smoothed' paths that the garmin does. The 'professional' gpses basically have similar antennas, but smarter software (usually on the unit too, I got to play with a GPS (a $50,000 gps mind you) that could do 10,000 measurements per second and could be use to accurately measure really tiny accelerations with high accuracy! One of those would be REALLY nice to play with (anyone got $50,000 for me?).

I rode leb with my girlfriend's Garmin Forerunner last friday. It gets completely lost and confused on EVERY SINGLE switchback and turn. That's a property of most civilian GPS software: they oversmooth BADLY, even walking will confuse it. But if you tap the measurements directly you can get around some of that. Not sure I can make it work (trees can cause problems, and it takes a lot of patients and generally more than one pass over the survey location), but I'm willing to give it a try.



-Tony

[bigwheel]

Tony,

In order to use a handheld GPS, here's some hints:

1: You need to walk the trail, with GPS in your hand and antenna facing up. Riding is too fast to get good readings.

2: Do it in the fall/winter, after the leaves have fallen off of the trees

3: If your GPS has a feature called "position pinning", turn it on. It'll get rid of the wild jumpy readings.

4: Tell your GPS to drop bread crumbs by time, rather than distance. Otherwise, it will try to cut corners.

Two years ago, I walked the trail with my ancient Lowrance Globalmap 100. (which doesn't have WAAS, and only mediocre performance. Click on "my pictures" to see the plots.

[elesquiador]

I'm a graduate student here at the University of MN. I do a lot of GIS/GPS work. I have access to a very high quality professional grade GPS that we frequently use in forested areas, sub canopy. I also have the professional grade software to go with it and the expertise to use it. I may be willing to do some GPS work in the area, and also might be willing to donate some of my time in creating a high quality map from the result. I don't personally know the trail that well (I have ridden it 4 or 5 times, but don't know the names of the loops, etc), so it would be good to talk to someone who does about the project. To get good positional information, it is essential that we get out there before there are many more leaves on the trees. I think this weekend would be best. If whoever is in charge of this effort can contact me, we can talk about the needs for the map and we could take it from there. my email:
edit: email address removed to prevent spam.

[gopherhockey]

I'll be emailing on this - thanks!

I think this weekend would be best. If whoever is in charge of this effort can contact me, we can talk about the needs for the map and we could take it from there. my email:

[gopherhockey]

Has anyone seen the first draft of what Ryan did? Here it is... very nice!

http://www.morcmtb.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=2309&size=big&cat=recent&limit=recent

[bigwheel]

Awesome! Thanks Ryan!!!

I don't remember walking the Intermediate (ski trail) Out. Did you guys go back and do that section?

[gopherhockey]

Awesome! Thanks Ryan!!!

I don't remember walking the Intermediate (ski trail) Out. Did you guys go back and do that section?

That was done by hand until we can GPS the new re-route this fall...

[Aaroneous]

Has anyone seen the first draft of what Ryan did? Here it is... very nice!

http://www.morcmtb.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=2309&size=big&cat=recent&limit=recent

Wow! That looks great - nice work!

[tedsti]

That freaking ROCKS!!!!

Great job Ryan! :banana: :banana:

[gopherhockey]

We need to get more of our mile marker signs out there. (one every .2 miles starting at each trail section) I like how he placed them on the map. Should be easy to locate things like trees down or locations to hold trailwork sessions etc. They are also useful for locating injured riders etc. We can share this map with (?) and it could be used to locate a person by finding the nearest signpost.

Maybe we should add call boxes out there as well.

Imagine if we could fill the rest of the map with biking trails... one could fit a lot in 80 acres if it weren't for the hiking/ski trails.

[elesquiador]

Thanks, guys. this isnt a final version yet, so any feedback would be appreciated so I can incorporate any other ideas you may have.
-Ryan

[TML]

Nice work Ryan.

Looks great you guys!

[tedsti]

I guess one thing to consider is what we may want to show on the map, partly just as points of reference. I assume that most things are noted by the location markers. Are we going to have a legend for these? We could put it in the lower right corner of the map.
Distinct markers for:
XX Bridge 1
XX Bridge 2
Camelback
Teeter
Double jump
Jan's rock
A big gold star for Ted's log
Catwalk
X rock garden

Directional arrows would be good, but there is no need to get crazy with them.

The elevation traces really tell a lot about why people like/dislike some parts of the trail.

[TML]

Ryan, what software are you using for the mapping?

I agree with Ted about putting in some of the key trail features. Tough to label though with how tight X and XX are. May have to resort to leader lines if you want those in there.

[berrywise]

Wonder if we could create an interactive map where people could click on points of the map and look at trail features?

Outstanding job on the GPS'ing. Thanks for all the work!

[tedsti]

I think that the location markers and a legend would work.

I agree with Ted about putting in some of the key trail features. Tough to label though with how tight X and XX are. May have to resort to leader lines if you want those in there.

[gopherhockey]

Wonder if we could create an interactive map where people could click on points of the map and look at trail features?

Outstanding job on the GPS'ing. Thanks for all the work!

I have plans to take a final draft and make HTML hot-spots on it so you can click and view pictures of features and areas of the trail.

I also want to do something so we can place pointers to trees that are down etc. to warn people...

[berrywise]

I have plans to take a final draft and make HTML hot-spots on it so you can click and view pictures of features and areas of the trail.

I also want to do something so we can place pointers to trees that are down etc. to warn people...

How about we hang web cams in the trees and then people can click on the map and view that section of the trail in real time....just like the MnDot traffic maps.............................................: D

[elesquiador]

Most of the obstacles, bridges, etc are already marked on the map, I just need to decide how to best symbolize them. (Right now they are the red and black triangles-I think I'll change the color on them to make them stand out a bit more). Leader Lines are not hard to do, but the map is pretty busy already and I dont want to put too many distracting elements on it. I have a simpler version without the photo backdrop as well, and a few people around my office have told me that they think it is a clearer depiction. The brown circles represent the location codes on the marker posts scattered about the trail. Software used for this is a combination of Terrasynch and Trimble Pathfinder Office for the GPS work, ArcGIS for the cartography, and just a little bit of photoshop.

[gopherhockey]

How about we hang web cams in the trees and then people can click on the map and view that section of the trail in real time....just like the MnDot traffic maps.............................................: D

If we could get someone to move to a house near the park we could maybe pull that off... ;)

[berrywise]

Most of the obstacles, bridges, etc are already marked on the map, I just need to decide how to best symbolize them. (Right now they are the red and black triangles-I think I'll change the color on them to make them stand out a bit more). Leader Lines are not hard to do, but the map is pretty busy already and I dont want to put too many distracting elements on it. I have a simpler version without the photo backdrop as well, and a few people around my office have told me that they think it is a clearer depiction. The brown circles represent the location codes on the marker posts scattered about the trail. Software used for this is a combination of Terrasynch and Trimble Pathfinder Office for the GPS work, ArcGIS for the cartography, and just a little bit of photoshop.

Would it be possible to have the map built into an html format where you could click on the X and XX loops and then you would be sent to a different page with a blow up of those areas so you could see more detail and have more areas to explore?

What you have done so far though is killer as you can really get an idea for where the trail goes.

[elesquiador]

Would it be possible to have the map built into an html format where you could click on the X and XX loops and then you would be sent to a different page with a blow up of those areas so you could see more detail and have more areas to explore?

What you have done so far though is killer as you can really get an idea for where the trail goes.
I don't write html code (although I should learn), but I can provide larger scale versions of these parts of the map for whomever does write the code (John?). I believe an interactive version will be in the works eventually, so something like this probably will happen. Insets of those parts of the map are a possibility too, but, again, I don't want to make it too busy.

[gopherhockey]

I don't write html code (although I should learn), but I can provide larger scale versions of these parts of the map for whomever does write the code (John?). I believe an interactive version will be in the works eventually, so something like this probably will happen. Insets of those parts of the map are a possibility too, but, again, I don't want to make it too busy.

We can do this by simply having larger (more detailed) sections of the map as another photo. If a person clicks on an area it brings up the detailed section. Then they could even drill down from there into actual obstacle or action photos. (or even video)

There is a lot we can do with this for sure!

We still have grand money that was given to MORC for signage at Lebanon Hills specifically so once the latest re-routes are done this fall we can start talking about creating better/larger map signs at various trail locations.

[tedsti]

Do we want to add the hiking and ski trails? They could be just freehanded in from previous maps and be just a thin line. It is nice to know how they interconnect if you have a medical/mechanical and need a short way out.

[Adam Hjelle]

Do we want to add the hiking and ski trails? They could be just freehanded in from previous maps and be just a thin line. It is nice to know how they interconnect if you have a medical/mechanical and need a short way out.

This is a great idea, plus if the map ever gets posted at the trail head it won't give the impression of the trail only being a mtb trail, which could offend some of those sensative types out there.

[gopherhockey]

This is a great idea, plus if the map ever gets posted at the trail head it won't give the impression of the trail only being a mtb trail, which could offend some of those sensative types out there.

We could have a separate map with that on it. I just don't want people to get the idea they can cut through those trails... but it is nice as a reference and useful for trailwork as well.

Ok Ryan, you have about 8 more miles of trail to walk... ;) (kidding)

[gopherhockey]

I added the "beta" version of the map in the Lebanon trail review and added a few random hotspots too it. We can get better photos of each area (either of the trail or action shots) and improve once we work out a final map etc.

[martini]

Great work Ryan. Gives me ideas for what I need to do down here. Too bad I 'only' have access to Arcview and PS. Oh, and Grad school for what if I may ask?

[dave t]

The hot spots on the beta map are really cool but I think that, if there are no riders or other directional indicators in the picture, shots looking backwards up the trail might mix people up.
That's just my opinion and I know That it is just getting started and photo supplies are low.

Still, very cool.

[Kingbozo]

Great work!!!! Very cool.

[elesquiador]

Ok, here goes round II. I cleaned up a few parts of it, and added some names of obstacles, arrows, and played with the contours and air photo a bit. Do check to see if the names I guessed at are what people actually call the obstacles... and let me know which version you like. Also compare to the airphoto without contours like the original. I have not decided if the photo and contours are cool/useful or just too busy.

Couple versions here:

Full (http://www.morcmtb.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=2341&size=big&cat=500&ppuser=2332)
Simplified (no air photo) (http://www.morcmtb.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=2342&size=big&cat=500&ppuser=2332)
simplified even more (http://www.morcmtb.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=2343&size=big&cat=500&ppuser=2332)

[gopherhockey]

Nice job Ryan!

I like the first one for an online map with the picture and contour lines. The second/third would make nice trailhead maps or maps on a tri-fold or something like that. Very clean and easy to follow.

This is really a great thing to have. We have a small amount of grant money to do signs at Lebanon - perhaps after this fall when most trails are completed we can talk with someone about turning this into a nice large trailhead map like we see at other trails.

[Smurf]

Those look really nice Ryan....if I only had some color ink in my printer, I'd run one off to take with me when I ride Leb for the first time this afternoon.