Chilly Chili ICE RACE!!!! OH, YEAH!!!!

[Chuck]

I am hearing it alot. "Are the ice races happenin'?"
"When does the real racin' start?"
"What do I do with these studded tires?"
Well, I have three words for you:
ICE CRITERIUM CHAMPIONSHIPS!!!!

That's right folks. It's going dowwwwnnn!!!

Details will follow shortly but I can say that this year's racing is gonna be the best damn ice racing you folks have ever seen. Longer course, more ice, more off-road, more Port-O-Potties, more Chili, more days and more racin' action than you can throw a snowball at.

This year the Chilly Chili is gonna be two days of racing.
Mark your calendars: January 22nd and 29th.
Bush Lake, Hyland Park Reserve (Picnic Shelter 2)
part of the Bloomington Winter Fete

This year we have the help of MORC and Salsa Cycles and Team Urthel ( I will explain later).

Let it fly.

chuck :) :beer_yum:

[JBergland]

Best of all, this year Chuckster is going to finally enter the race himself. No word yet on if he'll finish or not!!:)

More info coming!!

JB

[TML]

Once again, we're all looking forward to it!!!

[Chuck]

Best of all, this year Chuckster is going to finally enter the race himself. No word yet on if he'll finish or not!!:)

JB

That has neither been confirmed nor denied at this point. Remember Jay, the only reason I didn't finish last time is cuz I was running that tank of a frankenbike you lent me. The kids still point and laugh.

:sick:

[JBergland]

"That has neither been confirmed nor denied at this point."

Oh it's been confirmed all right!!:) I just talked to Stacia (that's Mrs. Hood), and she has given her blessings!!:) I believe her exact words were something like... "If you can get him off the couch and out of the house, I'll pay you money!!"

"The kids still point and laugh."

Your bike riding/racing is bad enough Chuck... don't bring your childhood into this too!!:) There should be plenty more to laugh at this years races!!!!!!!!!!

JB

[Danimal]

Just got the info for the fliers that will be designed here's the skinny thus far...

I accept no responsibility for this info as it may change or may not, but this is what I have so far for the fliers we are making.



Team Urthel Presents:

The Ice Criterium Championships

Sponsored by:

The 4th Annual Chilly Chili Bike Race

Two Race Series:

When: January 22^nd and January 29^th, 2006

Where: Bush Lake, Hyland Park Reserve. Bloomington, MN. Parking in the west parking lot is available. (Picnic Shelter 2)

Come join Salsa Cycles and MORC during the Bloomington Winter Fete as we host the fourth annual Chilly Chili Bike Race on Ice.

Course: Short Course with a mix of ice and off-road.

Studded tires recommended. Helmets are required.

Times: 10am to 2pm. Registration opens at 10am and closes 15 minutes before each race start time. No pre-registration. (Not a USACycling or USCF event, so NO racing license required)

Schedule:

A race: 12:20am 1,2,3/Expert/Comp Race. (possible cash awards) 50 minutes

B race: 11:30am 4,5/Sport/Beginner Race. (No cash awards) 30 minutes

C race: 11:00am 15 and under kids race. This race may be broken into smaller categories depending on the number of entries. (Prizes for all entrants) 20 minutes

Fees: $10.00 per adult.

Children under 15 race for $5.00.

Prizes/Awards: Giveaways and prizes at each race. Cash awards for the Top 5 riders of the overall A-race series. Points will be given to the top 10 “A” riders at each race.

Place: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

Points: 15 12 10 8 7 5 4 3 2 1

Race info at www.morcmtb.org (http://www.morcmtb.org/) or www.bikemn.blogspot.com (http://www.bikemn.blogspot.com/)

Call Chuck Hood at 952-229-5043 or email chood@mn.rr.com (http://us.f607.mail.yahoo.com/ym/Compose?To=chood@mn.rr.com) for more info.

[Chuck]

Pay you money??? What? She said that? That would be my money too.
Oh, and now that you are talkin', let's see you get out there and race this year. It has been a while since we raced one another. Tell ya what. I will even give you a little push each time I come around to lap you.

[manual63]

Better stud up some tires. This sounds too fun to miss.....again. Hope we have a good turnout and we have cold enough weather for me not to be afraid of being on a frozen lake. Frozen lakes scare me....I might wear a life jacket.....:)

[fasterfoster]

The 4th Annual Chilly Chili Bike Race

Two Race Series:

When: January 22<SUP>nd</SUP> and January 29<SUP>th</SUP>, 2006

Where: Bush Lake, Hyland Park Reserve. Bloomington, MN. Parking in the west parking lot is available. (Picnic Shelter 2)

Come join Salsa Cycles and MORC during the Bloomington Winter Fete as we host the fourth annual Chilly Chili Bike Race on Ice.

I noticed it's listed as a two race series. Will there be any additional races (in the past they were put on by Silver Cycling and held on Crystal Lake in Burnsville)?

Just curious... and thanks for the early heads up. My vacation requests will go in tomorrow!

[JBergland]

I noticed it's listed as a two race series. Will there be any additional races (in the past they were put on by Silver Cycling and held on Crystal Lake in Burnsville)?

Just curious... and thanks for the early heads up. My vacation requests will go in tomorrow!

Yup, there will be two races on Crystal again this year. More than likely the dates will be Feb. 18th and 25th. It looks like there will be two weekends of racing, followed by two weekends of rest/recovery, then two more weekends of racing.

JBergland

[syntaxjunkie]

You are all quite mad.

Knew I liked you for a reason.

[Chuck]

Yeah, if the weather stays like this we are gonna have great ice and a great race. Winter came fast yesterday and the commute to work was treacherous. Only went down once... guess I should have put the studs on already.

I rode past Bush Lake this morning, looked down at the lake and now I can't wait to get out there and mix it up!!!

Jay. You better start working out. I am not sure how strong the ice will be. :jumpy:

[Chuck]

Beau asks a good question:

"Are there different classes in the race?"

There are only 3 categories for the race: A,B, and C

We list the "recommended" classes for each race. For example: we say the A race is USACycling Cat 1, 2, 3 Road level/Expert, Comp mountain bike level, just for guidelines.

For these ice races, the turnout is rather small, as you can imagine most people don't have studded tires and the inkling to race on ice, so to break things out into seperate classes per race wouldn't really work well.

HOWEVER, we will score women seperately if enough show up. They will race with the B or A race, depending on which they feel more comfortable with. AND... if enough show up, I think we can talk Jay into doing a lap without his shirt on.

Hope that helps.

[fasterfoster]

Yup, there will be two races on Crystal again this year. More than likely the dates will be Feb. 18th and 25th. It looks like there will be two weekends of racing, followed by two weekends of rest/recovery, then two more weekends of racing.

JBergland
YES!!! Excellent news. ...and thanks for the extra racing this winter!

[FarmerBEN]

I just have two questions,

A- How many bones would I break trying it without studs?

B- How much does a pair of studded tires usually cost?

[jitterjepp]

I just have two questions,

A- How many bones would I break trying it without studs?

B- How much does a pair of studded tires usually cost?
I wouldn't even try it without the studded tires. I wiped out on a glare ice turn with studs last year and it hurt. I think you can get tires for about $40 each. I have a homemade versions that seem to work better than the factory made studded tires. The factory tires don't really have any sidewall studs so unless you're turning really slow I think there is a good possibility of going down. I tried making my home versions similar to the factory ones and I went down in the first race twice. Then I made some revisions and they were golden. I have about 360 screws per tire right now. I used an old set of tires that were pretty much worn down with 1/4 zippers on the center knobbies and 1/2 - 3/4 on the outer knobies.
I had two flats last year from the screw heads popping the tubes because the old tubes I put on the outside ot the good tube kept sliding around so I'm going to try something new this year. I'm either going to take EPMD rubber and glue and stick a layer of the thicker rubber roofing material to the inside to the tire over the screw heads or I'm going to put the tube inside foam air conditioning insulator tubes and use a skinier tube. I think both ways will work well and I really want to try using the foam insulator tubes and see how well it works to be able to run lower pressures and get some squish for better grippage on the turns.

[SPR]

I wouldn't even try it without the studded tires. I wiped out on a glare ice turn with studs last year and it hurt. I think you can get tires for about $40 each. I have a homemade versions that seem to work better than the factory made studded tires. The factory tires don't really have any sidewall studs so unless you're turning really slow I think there is a good possibility of going down. I tried making my home versions similar to the factory ones and I went down in the first race twice. Then I made some revisions and they were golden. I have about 360 screws per tire right now. I used an old set of tires that were pretty much worn down with 1/4 zippers on the center knobbies and 1/2 - 3/4 on the outer knobies.
I had two flats last year from the screw heads popping the tubes because the old tubes I put on the outside ot the good tube kept sliding around so I'm going to try something new this year. I'm either going to take EPMD rubber and glue and stick a layer of the thicker rubber roofing material to the inside to the tire over the screw heads or I'm going to put the tube inside foam air conditioning insulator tubes and use a skinier tube. I think both ways will work well and I really want to try using the foam insulator tubes and see how well it works to be able to run lower pressures and get some squish for better grippage on the turns.
I covered the the screw heads with shoe Goo (Goop?) which provides a flexible coating and have good results meaning no flats.

[SPR]

How 'bout some ice berms this year? :cool:

http://www.morcmtb.org/photopost/data/501/Winter_Bike.JPG

[bigwheel]

I covered the the screw heads with shoe Goo (Goop?) which provides a flexible coating and have good results meaning no flats.

I'm interested how you got the Show Goo to not puddle up in the low spots.


Once thing I can confirm: Duct tape does NOT work. In a hurry to get in a ride, I decided to line my front tire with duct tape. The thump at the bottom of Jan's Rock (leb) was too much for it, and I flatted out. When pulled the tire off, I could see that almost every screw head poked through the tape.

The tires are now lined with a chunck of fairly stiff plastic (thick heat shrink tubing that I got for cheap at Ax-Man). I cut the tubing into strips, and put little slices along the edge so that it would make the curve inside of the tire. Then, I used silicon calk to hold it in place.

Now that I'm all done, I came up with an easier solution:

While browsing through Home Depot, I came across some plastic trim tape, that you use instead of calk around the corners of your bathtub/shower. The tape is about 1 1/2 inches wide, has a sticky back, and looks tough enough to easily handle the screw heads. If I remember correctly, the tape comes in a 10 foot roll for about 5 or 6 bucks. So, assuming that you put two strips side-by-side, one roll should be about right for one tire.

[tedsti]

I was just at Home Depot at lunch and spotted some pipe insulating tape. IT is about 1/8" thick foam and 2" wide with some good adhesive. 50' roll for about $6 if I remember correctly. I think I am going to give it a try if the strapping tape I already bought does not work.

[Burke]

I cut the valves out of used tubes in half to make one long cylinder, then slice the tube open lengthwise: imagine skinning a snake. I then rubber cement/tubular rim glue the tube to the inside of the tire covering up the screw heads.

If it's good enough for the "B race" Ice Crit World Champion, it's good enough for you. :)

[berrywise]

Ice Berms! Now that would rock. Would be great to see a whole snake section of berms to rip through.

[rideharder]

Now that I'm all done, I came up with an easier solution:

here is an even better way, i know that ya'll have old tires layin around, so cut the bead off and use that as a liner. (not the bead, the tire part) you will have to cut it cross wise so you can get it to fit but dont cut out the extra. the over lap will prevent it from seperating.

[RedSquirrel]

One tube as liner over homemade stud heads is not enough. I just learned it this weekend at river bottoms on mega huge log roll. I'm going to use multiple tubes inside, however, I may try the old tire trick if I can find a soft walled tire laying around.

Agree, rubber contact cement works great for holding liners in place.

Next Topic: Banked corners at ice race is a sweet idea. Some humps in race too! My hump, my hump, my HUMP...ok not my hump. sorry heard that song for the first time recently...

[SPR]

I'm interested how you got the Show Goo to not puddle up in the low spots.


Once thing I can confirm: Duct tape does NOT work. In a hurry to get in a ride, I decided to line my front tire with duct tape. The thump at the bottom of Jan's Rock (leb) was too much for it, and I flatted out. When pulled the tire off, I could see that almost every screw head poked through the tape.

The tires are now lined with a chunck of fairly stiff plastic (thick heat shrink tubing that I got for cheap at Ax-Man). I cut the tubing into strips, and put little slices along the edge so that it would make the curve inside of the tire. Then, I used silicon calk to hold it in place.

Now that I'm all done, I came up with an easier solution:

While browsing through Home Depot, I came across some plastic trim tape, that you use instead of calk around the corners of your bathtub/shower. The tape is about 1 1/2 inches wide, has a sticky back, and looks tough enough to easily handle the screw heads. If I remember correctly, the tape comes in a 10 foot roll for about 5 or 6 bucks. So, assuming that you put two strips side-by-side, one roll should be about right for one tire.

The shoe goo is not runny and is more the consistency of caulk so it never pools. I turned the tire inside out and then applied the goo.
I discovered the failure of duct when I made my first set of studded tires. The damn stuff was hard to get out of the tire as well.

[bigwheel]

The shoe goo is not runny and is more the consistency of caulk so it never pools. I turned the tire inside out and then applied the goo.
I discovered the failure of duct when I made my first set of studded tires. The damn stuff was hard to get out of the tire as well.

Hmmm. I have been using shoe goo for sealing my homebrew light electronics. As you say, it does have the consistency of caulk. However, in my experience, it is runny, although it takes several hours for it to "run", as it is very viscous. For me, this works out nicely because the goo eventually fills every nook and cranny of the circuit, and is really rugged once it is dry. For me, the show goo takes about 4 or 5 days to dry.

My guess is that in my applications, the volume of goo is so much that a skin forms on the edge, and keeps the air off of it, whereas with the tires, the goo is able to dry before it gets a chance to run.

[jitterjepp]

The shoe goo is not runny and is more the consistency of caulk so it never pools. I turned the tire inside out and then applied the goo.
I discovered the failure of duct when I made my first set of studded tires. The damn stuff was hard to get out of the tire as well.
Yeah the duct tape method sucks. I tried the same thing and had the same results.

[FarmerBEN]

Some humps in race too! My hump, my hump, my HUMP...ok not my hump. sorry heard that song for the first time recently...

what rock have you been living under? that Song has been beaten to death for the past month (or maybe just on KROC)

[umdog603]

I finished my tires today because work closed early. Took them for a trial ride, also my first winter ride, and I loved it. The tires worked like a charm. I found the perfect thing to line tires with. I was at Home Depot and came across Frost King weather stripping for the bottom of a garage door. It is about 1/8 thick, flexible rubber and real durable. Used a little super glue to keep it in place until fully inflated.

[fasterfoster]

Any updates regarding the races?
The weather doesn't seem to be cooperating and the forecast doesn't look good.

[Burke]

Any updates regarding the races?
The weather doesn't seem to be cooperating and the forecast doesn't look good.

They're on. Sun or snow, we're going. We have permission from Bloomington to run the race on ground if the ice isn't safe.

Last night on Lake Nokomis, there was a solid 8-10 inches of ice in the fishing hole I checked.

[Chuck]

Thanks Scott.
That is correct. The race will be run one way or another. If we feel the ice is unsafe, and we are having the ice checked by the Bloomington Water Patrol the day before the race, we have permission to run the race on the dirt and paths. We will make sure to let all the riders know at least 24hours in advance whether the race will be on ice or not, so you can plan you tire choice before heading to the race.

See you out there.

[Wheels]

I cut the valves out of used tubes in half to make one long cylinder, then slice the tube open lengthwise: imagine skinning a snake. I then rubber cement/tubular rim glue the tube to the inside of the tire covering up the screw heads.

If it's good enough for the "B race" Ice Crit World Champion, it's good enough for you. :)

Before you install the sliced tube liner cover the heads of the screws with silicone.

[phaberman1]

Great advice Shawn. I used silicone on the screw heads and Burkes "Skinned Snake" technique on my studs and have not flatted in two years.


Before you install the sliced tube liner cover the heads of the screws with silicone.

[Wolfchimp]

Is there a website somewhere that documents the process of making your own studded tires? I understand how to do it, I am just curious what the best materials are for the job. Thanks.

[Burke]

Is there a website somewhere that documents the process of making your own studded tires? I understand how to do it, I am just curious what the best materials are for the job. Thanks.

I'm going to make another set, starting tonight. I'll photo document the process and post it up. It won't be as smashing a success as Bob's homebrew lights, but it will help with visual aids.

Scott

[Wolfchimp]

Thanks Scott, you rock!

[tedsti]

If your knobs are tall enough, there are some good wafer head self tapping screws. The shortest they come in is 1/2". The nice thing is that they have really big flat heads that help keep them stable.

I'm going to make another set, starting tonight. I'll photo document the process and post it up. It won't be as smashing a success as Bob's homebrew lights, but it will help with visual aids.

Scott

[phaberman1]

You've got to have pretty big knobbies for a 1/2 inch screw. I've found that 3/8 or 1/4 inch #6 sheetmetal screws (preferably stainless) work well. Many Hardware stores do not carry anything smaller than 1/2 inch, so one might have to search a little. One place that has them is Chaska Home Store, which should work well for "Wolfchimp", at least.

I've never tried the self tapping screw as Tedsti mentioned. Sounds like a good idea, though.

[Wheels]

Keep in mind, any screws you purchase from a hdwr store are soft (as opposed to industrial carbon tip) so if you want to keep your screws as sharp as possible, never ride on a hardened surface with them - just one ride over pavement will take away a great deal of your gripping power and screw sharpness.

Also, be careful with self-tapping screws as they may not go in straight - I've found it best to pre-drill the holes before inserting the screws.

[TML]

Another good thing about the self-tappers, is that as your studs wear, the self-tappers, due to the split tip point, will have a sharp edge longer than other screws.

[tedsti]

While stainless screws will resist rust, they are softer than the plain old zinc coated steel and will not wear as well.

The shortest I have ever found hardened tip self tappers is 1/2". They are also about $5 for 25 vs. $5 for 250 for normal screws.

Even with the self tappers, definitely pre-drill from the outside so you know where your screws will end up.

The tires I used the 1/2" screws in were WTB Timberwolfs. They have really tall knobs.

[jitterjepp]

While stainless screws will resist rust, they are softer than the plain old zinc coated steel and will not wear as well.

The shortest I have ever found hardened tip self tappers is 1/2". They are also about $5 for 25 vs. $5 for 250 for normal screws.

Even with the self tappers, definitely pre-drill from the outside so you know where your screws will end up.

The tires I used the 1/2" screws in were WTB Timberwolfs. They have really tall knobs.I think you have that backwards. I mean I know you have that backwards. I work with metal all day long. The Zinc coating on metal is to keep it from rusting. That's all it is too is a coating. Also called galivanization. It also allows you to solder the metal with a lead/tin mixture and a braising compound like muritac acid. Solder doesn't not stick to steel It sticks to galvanization or the zinc and the brasing compound removes the oils from the metal and cleans the zinc so the lead/tin will stick. If they could they would use a zinc coating on food cans because it's cheaper than tinning them but the food acids attack the zinc.
Actually the other metal close to zinc is lead. Both are used in electronic gadgets. Not real tough metals. Zinc like lead also has an extreemly low melting point for a metal and it's been used as a cast metal for carberators and what not.
Stainless steel is by far a harder metal and the screws are pretty expensive right now. You will get a lot more life out of them than any other steel screws.
If You want to buy them in quantity (say 50 on up) go to Dynamic Fastener. It's on the east side of 280 just south of Como Avenue (Take the como exit) Go on the service road and its at the end of the building where Budget Rental is. Look for the metal stairs going up to a city desk. (the door faces 280....

[tedsti]

Yes, the zinc coating is soft. But as you said, it is just a thin coating. The steel that is under the zinc is much harder than stainless steel. The hardness is about 3x that of stainless. If you have ever used stainless fasteners, you would know how easily they gawl, strip and break.

I think you have that backwards. I mean I know you have that backwards. I work with metal all day long. The Zinc coating on metal is to keep it from rusting. That's all it is too is a coating. Also called galivanization.

[TB0NE]

I suggest tool steel. That is what I'm forging my studs with. My mom is a blacksmith.

[bigwheel]

Stainless or Galvanized ??? (at least it's not another political argument)

Ted, Shawn,Shawn orTravis. Could one of you please post a link to a source that is convincing enough for the "other guy"? I'd really like to know the real answer.

I'm afraid that we're going to end up with the definitive anwser of "It Depends", since there are many different kinds of stainless steel and many different kinds of mild steel. Each was brewed for its particular properties or for cost considerations.

But, that's just my guess. I'd really like to know the correct answer.

[jitterjepp]

Stainless or Galvanized ??? (at least it's not another political argument)

Ted, Shawn,Shawn orTravis. Could one of you please post a link to a source that is convincing enough for the "other guy"? I'd really like to know the real answer.

I'm afraid that we're going to end up with the definitive anwser of "It Depends", since there are many different kinds of stainless steel and many different kinds of mild steel. Each was brewed for its particular properties or for cost considerations.

But, that's just my guess. I'd really like to know the correct answer.
Ahhh.. I owned a sheet metal shop and I've been doing the work for many years. Anyone that has ever used stainless pop rivets or tried to cut stainless know which is tougher at the end of the day when the bones are grinding in your wrists. If anyone wants to meet I'll bring some chunks and fasteners made of stainless, galvanized, brass, aluminum, copper a bunch of files and snips and grinders and let you go to town. When you get to the stainless I pull out a lawn chair, a six-pack and the results should be in by the time I'm on number five. You'll have about a six inch cut through the stainless with a $40 pair of snips, your wrist will be done your forearms will be pumped and you'll owe me a new pair of snops because they be bent open.
Stainless is a tough metal. Its tough to bend, tough to drill through, tough to cut and it wears the hell out of your tools. I don't need to give anyone a link to anything to prove it. I am the link. If you don't believe me go get a stainless fastener and a galvanized/steel fastener and take it to a file and try to grind down the stainless as easily as the galvanized. Take my word on it. Stainless fasteners are also going to be more expensive because the material is more expensive and its more expensive to work with.

As far as how many stainless fasteners I've used? That's funny. Probably about 8,000 in the last three months. In the last five or so years...I have no idea where to start. Number of fasteners I've ordered for my shop and other side work? Somewhere around 3/4 of a million. Probably more.....

[KleinCrazy]

Shawn,

I guess my question then is why are high quality knives never made from Stainless?

I went shopping for a set of professional quality knives over the holidays and everything I learned told me that stainless would not keep as sharp of edge or last as long as High Carbon Steel.

Any answers for me or did I waste $600 dollars?

[jitterjepp]

Shawn,

I guess my question then is why are high quality knives never made from Stainless?

I went shopping for a set of professional quality knives over the holidays and everything I learned told me that stainless would not keep as sharp of edge or last as long as High Carbon Steel.

Any answers for me or did I waste $600 dollars? James probably not. The simple answer is this. Steel, all steel is iron and carbon. Carbon steel is iron with more carbon. The more carbon the tougher the steel. High carbon steel is used for a lot of things that need to be tough because of the application. Examples are drill bits, saw blades, hammers..... and other things that are going to take some abuse. Your knives are included in that group. High carbon steel is more expensive than low carbon steel and I've yet to see any of that with a galvanized coating. Examples of low carbon steel are say...coated sinkers, screws.....



Stainless (304 and 302) is generally iron, carbon, chromium and nickle with a possibly a hint of nitrogen and manganiese...depends on who made the stuff I guess(I don't know enough about that to be saying anything about it). Some of it is made with a lower carbon content for special application and it goes through a different process for hardening that makes it tougher but it also makes it more brittle but generally its all 302 and 304 stainless which is most of what we see and use in everyday life for things like knives and surgical steel and building products are just iron, carbon, chromium and nickle.

Carbon and iron. That's what all steel is. Stainless included. It just has some other stuff in it. The processes in which they are made different and affect the properties. As far as plain old zinc coated screws being tougher than stainless steel goes...No, they are not. But now that i think about it I probably wouldn't use them for tires. Way too expensive. I'd just get the same 1/2 zippers everyone else uses. Of course I have about 360 screws in each of my tires so that could get expensive in stainless....
Which is why I used a lower carbon steel.:)

[bigwheel]

Well, after a couple hours on Google, I still know almost nothing about this topic, but at least I now sort-of understand Shawn's posts.

But James' point still had me scratching my head, and asking a similar question: "IF stainless is such a hard material, why don't they use it for drill bits or saw blades?"

Back to google. It seems that the steel used in drill bits is "high carbon" steel, AKA "high speed" steel. This is not the same as what they use for screws at Menards. Basically, as Shawn pointed out, the more carbon they mix into the Steel, the harder it gets, and the steel that they use for galvanized screws is Low Carbon.

So, the competition for tire screws is between Low Carbon Steel and Stainless Steel. I did a bunch of looking, but couldn't find a "metal guide for dummys". However, I did find something at the following URL:

http://www.ultrahardmaterials.com/Versus%20Steels.htm

In their table, they show that Low Carbon steel is significicantly harder than Stainless steel, but that High Carbon steel is even harder. I found this same information in a several places, but this is the best place that I found which puts numbers into a table.

So, my conclusion (which may be wrong) is that Low Carbon Steel wins and Stainless Steel loses when it comes to homebrew bike studs
...for the Chilly Clilli Ice Race.

[tedsti]

You can't link directly to products at www.mcmaster.com so I will have to summarize. This is a great source for fasteners.
Zinc plated self tappers Rockwell hardness C45 = Vickers 450
Stainless self tappers Rockwell hardness B95 = Vickers 150

Stainless isn't a tough metal per say as much as it is a tough metal to work with. Tough to file, because it gawls easily and plugs up the file. Tough to cut with snips because it does not shear cleanly. Stainless fasteners have their place where corrosion is a big concern. Otherwise go with coated steel.

[jitterjepp]

So, my conclusion (which may be wrong) is that Low Carbon Steel wins and Stainless Steel loses when it comes to homebrew bike studs
...for the Chilly Clilli Ice Race.
I used the low carbon just because of the price difference. I can get a bag of 500 for $15 of pretty good screws. Also I never said that stainless was harder than all other steel. I said the stainless fasteners are harder than the plain old steel with a zinc/galvanization. People generally aren't buying the harder carbon iron screws and they are more expensive. I didn't see in the origional post that he was refering to the hardend tip fasteners. I also said you would get more life out of them than any other steel screw. Thats not true in this application. And again my reference was to the normal zinc coated screws which isn't even what he was talking aobut...my bad..
I feel kind like an idiot. I didn't see it.
My bad. I did use these for part of my tires. I also used some very small screws 1/4 that we had machined for special purposes on welded roofing situtations for my two center rows on a tire that had very little tread left in the center and 1/2 or 3/8 pan head self tappers (i can't remember which) for the outer rows.
In short, I didn't read his post clearly and he is correct and I am a loud mouthed fool.....
:crazy2:

[jitterjepp]

You can't link directly to products at www.mcmaster.com (http://www.mcmaster.com) so I will have to summarize. This is a great source for fasteners.
Zinc plated self tappers Rockwell hardness C45 = Vickers 450
Stainless self tappers Rockwell hardness B95 = Vickers 150

Stainless isn't a tough metal per say as much as it is a tough metal to work with. Tough to file, because it gawls easily and plugs up the file. Tough to cut with snips because it does not shear cleanly. Stainless fasteners have their place where corrosion is a big concern. Otherwise go with coated steel.
When I read your post in my mind I saw a bag of 1/2 coated zippers and thought "what is he talking about...." I didn't read it very well...

[transplant]

Ahhh.. I owned a sheet metal shop and I've been doing the work for many years.

Do you still have access to all the tools? I spent ten years as a tinner and had a great side gig making Pottery Barn style magazine racks. I could make one, start to finish, in about 15 minutes and sell it for $25.00. I had a number of stores in the Phoenix area that bought them and marked them up from $40 to $50. I'd LOVE to get my hands on a shear, brake, roll former, welder...

I also hated stainless work. The margin of error was a lot slimmer and my work time per sheet went up a bit.

[bigwheel]

I didn't see in the origional post that he was refering to the hardend tip fasteners.

Don't be too hard on yourself. I'm still scratching my head on this topic.

My understanding was that Ted is using the self-tapping screws because they have a thicker point, and they have the V-groove, which maintains a sharp edge even after the stud starts to wear. If they have hardened tips, that is a bonus, but I don't think that was his main reason for buying them.

I went the other way. My front wheel has 420 screws, and my back wheel has 335. So, screw cost is a big factor. At Home Depot, I had the self-tappers in my hand, but couldn't force myself to the register with about $50 in screws for a set of tires that I only paid 20 bucks for (used).

So, I put the self-tappers back on the shelf and went with the cheapo pointy galvanized screws, where I could buy 800 screws for about 15 bucks. Since one of the concerns was that the pointy screws were too thin at the tips, I went with longer screws then hit them with an angle grinder after the wheel was finished. Then, I had about 1/8 inch of beefy stud sticking out. (It was also cool getting the wheel spinning really fast and having sparks flying in every direction.)

The problem that I've had is that since the screws were no longer pointy, they don't grab as well on glare ice. So, I've started taking the center row and nipping/pinching them with a small bolt cutter. This made a big difference on today's ride, so I plan to do it on both wheels.

I probably only have about 10 rides on the tires so far, but I can't see any signs of wear yet. However, the studs have never seen pavement, and probably never will.

[jitterjepp]

Do you still have access to all the tools? I spent ten years as a tinner and had a great side gig making Pottery Barn style magazine racks. I could make one, start to finish, in about 15 minutes and sell it for $25.00. I had a number of stores in the Phoenix area that bought them and marked them up from $40 to $50. I'd LOVE to get my hands on a shear, brake, roll former, welder...

I also hated stainless work. The margin of error was a lot slimmer and my work time per sheet went up a bit.

I left my business with my two partners about three years ago and spent about two years roaming around. I can get access to equipment but I don't have exclusive access. We had an autobrake 2000 that was pretty nice. Nothing like being able to program in all your bends on a touch screen and go to town.

Now, all our metal is bent in another shop and any panels are delivered or roll formed on the site. You can get pretty good money for that specialty stuff though. I used to make special order galvanized planter liners for resturants and whatnot and I got $250 on up for them and they were all less than a sheet of 24 gauge and a bar of lead. I don't think any of them ever took more than a half hour to make either.
I make some pretty nice copper planters for gifts out of 16 and 21 oz. They are nicer than the ones they have at pottery barn and those things are made from that thin craft copper and they get $250 - $350 for them in the store. That stuff is so thin I don't even know what the weight is on them. Probably 10 or less. Some of the other guys I work with make some pretty nice cookie sheets out of stainless for gifts for their famliy on the holidays too. I think everyone who has been doing it for more than a couple of years has thier own thing they make.

I wish I had the time to make all the crap I want to but at the end of the day it seems I've just seen more crap-flash than I want to and had enough fishhooks get caught in my fingers to want anything to do with the metal. Its also winter and you know how that is. You get worn out. I'm sitting at home right now because I'm totally worn out from the cold. I don't even want to go drink beer. Well...I want to but I'm just too tired.

I know someone who has a spot at the farmers market and I've comtemplated making a bunch of copper planters and having the person sell them out there. I think a guy could get about $200 on up for one out there. Copper prices are pretty high now though. Even the scrap prices are above a buck a pound for clean copper at some places. I think its at about a hundred bucks for a sheet of 16oz copper and color clad is even about a hundred a sheet. Three years ago it was about $36 for color clad and about $60 for 21oz copper. It's amazing how a war and a few bad disasters can drive the prices up.

I think if a guy looked around you could probably pick up a four foot roper whitney brake for about $400 - $800. Someone told me they got one for $400 last year from a school because they were selling all thier equipment from thier metal shop classes after deciding to cancel them. You might also be able to find a shop where you can lease time by the hour. I know a couple guys that do it for thier own businesses but you generally have to do all your work after hours.

[jitterjepp]

Where I could buy 800 screws for about 15 bucks. Since one of the concerns was that the pointy screws were too thin at the tips, I went with longer screws then hit them with an angle grinder after the wheel was finished. Then, I had about 1/8 inch of beefy stud sticking out. (It was also cool getting the wheel spinning really fast and having sparks flying in every direction.)

The grinder on the moving tire. Thats funny! It would be really cool to get the sparks coming off the tires rolling down the pavment!
For fasteners go to Dynamic Fastener on 280 and Como. There is also a new fastener place in town called FastenAll I dont' really know where they are located but I did hear that they are a Minnesota based company. If you go to a place specializes in fasteners you don't have to buy them in bags of 25 and 50. You can buy a bag of 1,000 or whatever and they are cheaper. Or next time you see me just dig them out of the trunk of my car. I throw all the screws into a 5 gallon bucket in my trunk that get mismatched and it only takes about a month to get it about a gallon and a half full. Then later when I look and see that I actually don't want to seperate them I toss them out because they are all a bunch of different colors and sizes and types...

I probably have about 1,000 1/2 inch pan head zippers in there now which sounds exactly like what you used. I personaly wouldn't even worry about having rust on the things. It doesn't matter they are going to wear down way before the rust will be a problem. I still have the same ones from last year and they are still pretty good. I think I only lost about 3/32 of an inch since last year but I haven't been out very much this year..yet anyway. I'm waiting for that sun to starting staying up late again.

[fasterfoster]

Did anyone happen to notice the title of this thread?

[Ala Carte]

Hey Shawn, this sounds like hella fun. What do you think for single gearing? 32/16 or 32/18

[jitterjepp]

Hey Shawn, this sounds like hella fun. What do you think for single gearing? 32/16 or 32/18Ok I got it man. Can't help it if I tend to blab on about the stuff.... If it helps any all I do at work is talk about mountain biking...they give me the same response. ...

[tedsti]

When the course goes off the ice, are there any hills? Just trying to figure out my gearing, if I decide to give this a whirl.

[TML]

When the course goes off the ice, are there any hills? Just trying to figure out my gearing, if I decide to give this a whirl.

If you decide?? C'mon you've got to do it! It's definitely a fun time, in a masochistic sort of way. . .

If the course is run similar to last year, there was a heckuva hill. Most people were walking it anyway though, because the snow was pretty deep that day. Some people crawled up it but they weren't going any too fast. So yes, there is a hill but I wouldn't let it determine your gearing.

[TML]

Here are some pictures of the course from 2005.

http://www.superteamracing.com/2005%20chili%20ice%20race.htm


And here's a picture of the hill:

http://www.superteamracing.com/pictures/purple%20on%20uphill.JPG

[Chuck]

The course will be very similar to last year and there will be the "HILL" and yes, it is a difficult hill to climb and most walked it last year. Hollywood was climbing it rather easily and ran away with the A race.

So, this year expect the same but with more ice time.

That is if we deem the ice is safe to race on. We are checking the thickness today and a final call will be made tomorrow on this message board.

[Maria]

I like how you say most walked "the hill". From the looks of the picture below, that hill's so tame, even a GIRL can ride it. :p

Did anyone see the article in Silent Sports about the ice races?

[frogfacepierre]

So I'm new here and have no idea what I'm getting into with this whole chilly chili race. I'm going to be racing my 1x1 with studs. I am I going to be ok? I'm going to race comp I think so if the races starts at 12:30 when should I be there?
one last question...
Is the ice going to be thick enough?

[Chuck]

I haven't but I was asked some questions about the thing. I have to grab a copy and read it. Maybe I am famous now. Maria was the toughest rider there last year.

[Chuck]

So I'm new here and have no idea what I'm getting into with this whole chilly chili race. I'm going to be racing my 1x1 with studs. I am I going to be ok? I'm going to race comp I think so if the races starts at 12:30 when should I be there?
one last question...
Is the ice going to be thick enough?

You will be fine with a single. Not sure of the gearing you should choose as everyone is different but I would run a 32x16

out.

Oh, and the ice measured 11" in the center of the lake. Should be fine for racing.

[JBergland]

Did anyone see the article in Silent Sports about the ice races?

I believe the article by Byron Kuster is a summary from last years events. By the time it was writen and forwarded to SS, it was just about out-of-season to be talking much about ice, snow, etc.

JB

[mara]

What gear ratio are the non - psycho folks out there using? I almost died at Salem running 32x18, but that was in deeper snow. . .

[manual63]

What gear ratio are the non - psycho folks out there using?
Yeah.....a 32:16 seems a bit hard doesn't it? I will be running my only other option, a 32:18, but I have no idea how well it will do since I have never ridden a single on ice before.

I want to add this question too.

Clipless or Platforms? What do people use on ice? I am leaning towards platforms so I can save my @ss easier.

[TML]

Clipless or Platforms? What do people use on ice? I am leaning towards platforms so I can save my @ss easier.

I'm all about platforms in the winter. They are sooo much nicer when you have the uncertainty of ice. Plus, if it ever does get cold, you can wear much warmer shoes.

[frogfacepierre]

awesome. well thanks for the info and I'll see you all out there.

[flombe]

Yeah.....a 32:16 seems a bit hard doesn't it? I will be running my only other option, a 32:18, but I have no idea how well it will do since I have never ridden a single on ice before.

I want to add this question too.

Clipless or Platforms? What do people use on ice? I am leaning towards platforms so I can save my @ss easier.

I am not able to make this race :mad: , but hope to be there next weekend!

I have been running 32/18 on my 29er (which I hear is similar to 32/16 for 26") and it is great at Theo on hardpack and ice! I am considering going to a 17T for more top end.

I've been running 29 x 1.5" studded Nokians tires regardless of the conditions.

Pedals? I have no problem clipping out of my Eggbeaters when things get sketchy and this happens frequently on winter rides. I have been thinking Crank Bros. Candy or Mallet might be perfect for winter because they give you something to stand on after clipping out.

Have a great race everyone!