Stop skidding!!

[manual63]

Use the front brake more and rear less. Especially on downhills where you need to slow down quickly. I know many people feel the front brake will flip them, but if you learn to use it correctly, you will be able to modulate it so it slows down the front tire without locking it up or skidding it.

If you only use the rear brake, you will not slow down much and you will skid a long ways, which is not good for the trails. Skidding causes braking bumps, like those in the Leb dream trail, and makes it even worse for future riders to ride and slow down in those sections.

Do this:

Get off your bike and stand next to it. Put one hand behind the seat and push the bike forward, not up, while only holding the rear brake. Notice how you can just push the bike forward, even when the rear tire is locked up. Now put on the front brake and push the seat forward, bike doesn't move and it might even endo it brake is locked. Now do this with only applying slight pressure on the front brake, but don't lock it up. You can actually control (modulate) how much power you want to use to slow down using the front brake without flipping or locking up the front tire. Practice this, it's a valueable skill to have for both you and the trails.

The front brake is 90% of your stopping power. Learning how to use it will allow you to go into turns hotter and exit them faster, without skidding the turn!

[The Hammer]

I'm guilty of skidding but not on descents. I occasionally slide the rear tire around corners because it can be faster. When I do this I lighten up the rear end so as not to slow down. I have seen the drag marks left on the ground, it never seems to dig in. Do you perceive this to be bad practice regarding trail conservation?

[manual63]

Do you perceive this to be bad practice regarding trail conservation?

I know it's fun to do, but yes, it is bad for the corners. Even though one time doesn't do much, just like one skid on a downhill doesn't do much damage, after multiple times this wear down the turn and creates a rut or channel in the turn after awhile. We have to keep fixing some corners at Theo because of this.

Out of the many years I raced BMX, we debated that sliding a turn is in no way faster than taking a good line. It may feel faster, but any time you start sliding, you are scrubbing speed. If you approach every corner from the far outside, you can dive in and apex the turn as best as you can. This is the fastest way to take a corner. Watch for corners with trees pinning the turn, not always easy to take the best line in that case.

In a downhill event or on an armored corner with a berm, you can actually use sliding to your advantage and actually do a controlled slide to help scrub speed and negotiate the corner. But on a singletrack trail, where you are likely needing to pedal out of the turn to pick up speed, I can't possibly see how sliding a corner would do you any good. Chris D used to think so, but I think he eventually learned that a good smooth line, even if you have to slow down using the front brakes, is the fastest and smoothest way through a turn.

He started out by unclipping his inside foot and railing turns. Railing is just that, carving a perfect line, usually by leaning way into the turn, but not sliding. I am not entirely sure, but I think he keeps his inside foot clipped in most of the time now. I know I hardly ever clip out in turns, but as you are learning where the limits are, it's a good idea so you can catch yourself if you slide out.

[mara]

Get off your bike and stand next to it. Put one hand behind the seat and push the bike forward, not up, while only holding the rear brake. Notice how you can just push the bike forward, even when the rear tire is locked up. Now put on the front brake and push the seat forward, bike doesn't move and it might even endo it brake is locked.

When Shad starts channeling Bill O'Reilly, it's probably either a good time to start paying some serious attention or a sign of the impending apocalypse. ;)

[manual63]

When Shad starts channeling Bill O'Reilly, it's probably either a good time to start paying some serious attention or a sign of the impending apocalypse. ;)

Yeah....Bill told Chris D about this. Then Chris D used it in a couple of our MTB 101 classes. It's a slick way to show someone how much more effective front brakes are. But, I should give credit where credit is due......thanks Bill.

[The Hammer]

I know it's fun to do, but yes, it is bad for the corners. Even though one time doesn't do much, just like one skid on a downhill doesn't do much damage, after multiple times this wear down the turn and creates a rut or channel in the turn after awhile. We have to keep fixing some corners at Theo because of this.

But on a singletrack trail, where you are likely needing to pedal out of the turn to pick up speed, I can't possibly see how sliding a corner would do you any good.


If it is deemed to be bad for the trail I will stop doing it whenever possible. As far as riding style and speed I won't even attempt a debate on line. I think that would be best left to be determined on the trail. I definately like the way MORC made the trail at Theo. It's a high speed trail that has lots of sweeping turns, very nice. I think some slow tight stuff (like the old trail still in existence at Theo) is good but I prefer the current trail style. Thanks Shad.

[manual63]

If it is deemed to be bad for the trail I will stop doing it whenever possible.

You can't be perfect. I still make a mistake and skid sometimes. I just try my hardest to make sure mara isn't around to hear/see it.......otherwise I get yelled at.....:laugh::p:)

[drmrboyalex]

Shad-you're also forgetting the selfish aspect of not skidding....it can do a number on your tires over time. When i was younger me and my friends thought it was cool to skid on our driveways or on the road and eventually threads were showin on my tire and soon after that i had to get a new tube for it.

[manual63]

Shad-you're also forgetting the selfish aspect of not skidding....it can do a number on your tires over time. When i was younger me and my friends thought it was cool to skid on our driveways or on the road and eventually threads were showin on my tire and soon after that i had to get a new tube for it.

Believe it or not, tires do wear faster skidding on dirt too. Not as fast as on concrete, but they still lose rubber.

[drmrboyalex]

Believe it or not, tires do wear faster skidding on dirt too. Not as fast as on concrete, but they still lose rubber.

Well obviously they wear faster:p...youre just slidin it against a rough surface and on one spot of the wheel.
Im not sure but doesnt it wear your breaks quicker too?

[manual63]

Well obviously they wear faster:p...youre just slidin it against a rough surface and on one spot of the wheel.
Im not sure but doesnt it wear your breaks quicker too?

Uh.....I would guess it wears your brakes less. Using your brakes so you don't skid probably causes more wear since its the brake pad rubbing against the rim....instead of the tire rubbing against the ground. Just my thought, but would not really know.

Brake pads wear no matter what anyway....I would rather replace them than the tire and/or the trail.....:)

[drmrboyalex]

Brake pads wear no matter what anyway....I would rather replace them than the tire and/or the trail.....:)

very true....i wasnt sure either if they did or not either.

[Trevize1138]

I took a lesson from snowboarding. I currently ride a carving board, which is designed to take corners one way: railing them. You dig in with the edge, and ride it all the way around the arc of a turn. You'll see tell-tale evidence of this on ski hills by the deep, thin trench left in the snow from these boards.

The *only* time I slide my edges on this board is just as Shad said here about biking: scrubbing speed. If your goal is nothing more than to slow down, then skidding is what you do on a board.

HOwever, if you really want to go around a corner fast, you dig in that edge and ride it as clean as possible with almost *no* spray of snow.

The same principle applies to biking: if you can ride around a corner at the limit of your traction with no skidding, you'll be going as fast as possible around that corner.

If you skid around a corner, you're scrubbing speed, losing momentum, out of control and, yes, as a bonus you're doing damage to the trail over time. :)

In a downhill event or on an armored corner with a berm, you can actually use sliding to your advantage and actually do a controlled slide to help scrub speed and negotiate the corner. But on a singletrack trail, where you are likely needing to pedal out of the turn to pick up speed, I can't possibly see how sliding a corner would do you any good. Chris D used to think so, but I think he eventually learned that a good smooth line, even if you have to slow down using the front brakes, is the fastest and smoothest way through a turn.

He started out by unclipping his inside foot and railing turns. Railing is just that, carving a perfect line, usually by leaning way into the turn, but not sliding. I am not entirely sure, but I think he keeps his inside foot clipped in most of the time now. I know I hardly ever clip out in turns, but as you are learning where the limits are, it's a good idea so you can catch yourself if you slide out.

[The Hammer]

The same principle applies to biking: if you can ride around a corner at the limit of your traction with no skidding, you'll be going as fast as possible around that corner.

If you skid around a corner, you're scrubbing speed, losing momentum, out of control and, yes, as a bonus you're doing damage to the trail over time. :)

In my observations, the fastest riders that I have ridden with will sometimes slide their rear tire around corners and it appears to be faster when peoperly executed. It seems to be a common trait among highly skilled riders. I picked up the habit from mountain biking with motocross riders. Probably not the best people to pick up habits from though. That being said, I am not advocating the behavior and am still going to stop doing it on MORC trails.

[Danimal]

I thought using only your back brake builds berms???? Huh I guess Buck was wrong:)

[stoneage]

In my observations, the fastest riders that I have ridden with will sometimes slide their rear tire around corners and it appears to be faster when peoperly executed. It seems to be a common trait among highly skilled riders. I picked up the habit from mountain biking with motocross riders. Probably not the best people to pick up habits from though. That being said, I am not advocating the behavior and am still going to stop doing it on MORC trails.
It looks fast, but it isn't. All that momentum is going sideways, and it has to be recovered somehow. Now, a strong racer could probably flat track it, and still have enough power to accelerate out of the corner with speed, but it would take it's toll in the long run. That is why you see moto guys doing it. They have unlimited power. You just have your quadriceps. The same principal applies to downhill ski and bike racers. They are always faster when they are in contact with the ground. Air is fun, but not the fastest.
p.s. That front/rear brake demonstration is the first lesson that I show at a bike clinic. The second is the gyroscopic tendency of a spinning wheel. i.e. The wheel is more stable and predictable when it is in motion, so brake before cornering, not during.

[RedSquirrel]

It depends, but primarily no skid is faster. I raced all year this year cross country mtn bike. I competed in snowboard nationals & went to State in H.S. when I skied. Anywhoo..

1. You cannot naturally accelerate out of a turn as easy if you are skidding (no pedal momentum tech) - In skiing, boarding or biking there are ways to use equipment & weight to spring ahead out of turns. Lateral movements for example. If you skid this begins to eliminate this oppourtunity. I'll stop with tech. there.
2. I agree w/the snowboard & corrective action thoughts below rel. to skidding - If you skid you are slowing down. Friction. Evidence is on the snow or trail afterward.

HOWEVER - there are times the turn is too tight, or the course ahead demands more than your ability or humanly possible without lotso braking. In these cases the skid will be faster. Fly in & brake, slide into line of choice then pound back on the gas.

This is seen as & called a hack job on trails morc supports. So I don't reccomend. It kind of looks silly as well. Charging, slamming and cranking...ha ha ha. Energy zapper too....so in the long run if repeated...
later

[drmrboyalex]

It depends, but primarily no skid is faster. I raced all year this year cross country mtn bike. I competed in snowboard nationals & went to State in H.S. when I skied. Anywhoo..

1. You cannot naturally accelerate out of a turn as easy if you are skidding (no pedal momentum tech) - In skiing, boarding or biking there are ways to use equipment & weight to spring ahead out of turns. Lateral movements for example. If you skid this begins to eliminate this oppourtunity. I'll stop with tech. there.
2. I agree w/the snowboard & corrective action thoughts below rel. to skidding - If you skid you are slowing down. Friction. Evidence is on the snow or trail afterward.

HOWEVER - there are times the turn is too tight, or the course ahead demands more than your ability or humanly possible without lotso braking. In these cases the skid will be faster. Fly in & brake, slide into line of choice then pound back on the gas.

This is seen as & called a hack job on trails morc supports. So I don't reccomend. It kind of looks silly as well. Charging, slamming and cranking...ha ha ha. Energy zapper too....so in the long run if repeated...
later

i was at a campground and there wasa spot i had to do that at...it is a zapper but im not gunna lie....its fun

[The Hammer]

[QUOTE=disNjointedflatlander]It depends, but primarily no skid is faster.
HOWEVER - there are times the turn is too tight, or the course ahead demands more than your ability or humanly possible without lotso braking. In these cases the skid will be faster. Fly in & brake, slide into line of choice then pound back on the gas.[QUOTE=]

This guy knows what he is talking about! You nailed it on the head when you said "there are times when the turn is too tight". In my original post I didn't make it clear that I was using a slide to make a change in direction. When you lighten up the rear tire for the slide you don't scrub as much speed. This allows you to come into a tight corner faster, make the change in direction, and exit as fast or faster than if you slowed down in advance. Again, I'm only debating the merits of a controlled slide, not advocating skidding.

[Buck]

I skid. it's fun, I also go braaap through corners, b/c it makes me faster.

L8R
Buck

[manual63]

This is seen as & called a hack job on trails morc supports. So I don't reccomend. It kind of looks silly as well. Charging, slamming and cranking...ha ha ha. Energy zapper too....so in the long run if repeated...
later

This is where things start to come together. As trailbuilders, we need to and want to build sustainable trails. Making a trail where it causes riders to skid is not a good design. However, there are times when we know we can't prevent it. So we armor the area we believe or know where people are likely to skid. There are a lot of beginner and lower skilled riders on our trails and we make our best judgement on how to make the trail, keeping this in mind. At the same time, we don't want it to be boring......so it's not as easy as it may look to design a trail.

I know on some rougher or downhill trails, skidding is probably a good option to slide, scrubbing speed, into a turn and skillfully get the bike pointed in the correct direction so you can hammer out of the corner. On MORC designed XC trails, we make our best efforts to make corners so the rider can rail it and not have to skid. If a corner is too tight and does not have a visible line, a rider is likely to skid before the turn and cause those braking bumps that you see sometimes right before the turn. If there is a fast section that goes into a tight section, there is likely to be skidding. Also a lot of short downhill stuff, especially if it's a little technical, will have skidding. We got rid of the little downhill into the jump at Theo because riders would come around the turn and see the downhill and jump at the bottom........then they would skid their rear tire down the whole thing. If the front brake was properly used, they would not have to do this, but many riders don't use the front brake properly.

Anyway, it's important the trails are designed correctly. If we know skidding is likely, we either armor that section or change it so people don't need to skid. So this reinforces what you stated about MORC trails.....I hope.....:)

[mtnbykr]

...stop doing it on MORC trails.

how about stop doing it on ANY trails, morc-built or not. we don't like skidding in duluth either.

kl

[Buck]

I know on some rougher or downhill trails, skidding is probably a good option to slide, scrubbing speed, into a turn and skillfully get the bike pointed in the correct direction so you can hammer out of the corner.

WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Any (smart) DH racer will you tell that most the of braking power on a DH course/trail should come from the front brake. Please be careful how you word what you are saying, you make it sound OK to skid on DH trails but wrong to skid on MORC trails....like Kurt said it is bad to skid on any trail.
L8R
Buck

[manual63]

WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Any (smart) DH racer will you tell that most the of braking power on a DH course/trail should come from the front brake. Please be careful how you word what you are saying, you make it sound OK to skid on DH trails but wrong to skid on MORC trails....like Kurt said it is bad to skid on any trail.
L8R
Buck

If there is a situation described earlier, where sliding into a corner at the correct angle and power out of it, it is more likely to be on a downhill trail. Many of the downhill trails and technical ones have a lot of rock in/on them. So really, what you don't want to do it skid on a dirt trail....downhill or XC. If it's rock or armored, go for it.

No matter what type of riding you do, the front brake is the one to use for stopping power. I do see a lot of dirt jumper bikes now with only a rear brake......which is funny. With a Potts Mod (front cable going through the fork shaft/stem bolt), these bikes can still run a Gyro and have a front brake. I saw a guy riding one of the Haro DJ bikes at Theo and it only had a rear brake. As a trailbuilder....I just cringed and was like....well...you know he has to skid all over the place to slow down.....:confused:

[The Hammer]

It seems like we have two debates going on here.
1) Is sliding/skidding bad for the trail? We all agree that, yes it is bad for the trail and we won't do it.
2) Is sliding ever a faster way to negotiate a section of trail?

I am honestly curious how many people think that it is never faster to slide the rear tire in a section but always faster to roll through it. I am not trying to inflame the debate. I'm just a bit supprised that I am in the minority. I wonder if this is because we are on a MORC forum at is is taboo to admit that sliding can be faster because it will encourage more people to do it. Would somone do one of those polls where people can vote but have it be anonymous?

[rowland]

we've all established we're not going to skid on the trails (yeah right), skidding is causing friction, that is slowing you down. all that energy you scrub off by going too hot into a turn and needing to skid to get your bike pointed in the right direction, your going to have to make up when you exit the turn. losing speed and burning extra energy cannot be a winning combination. but if you think that makes you faster, cool.

[The Hammer]

we've all established we're not going to skid on the trails (yeah right),
Kinda lost me on that one. If you were questioning whether or not I will stop sliding, you're right, I might keep sliding on non-MORC trails. But I meant it when I said I won't skid on MORC trails. I like what MORC has done at Lebanon and Theo and I'd rather have those trails to ride without skidding, than have no trail to ride.
As far what you said about burning extra energy not being a winning combination, you're right that "burning extra energy" will wear you down in the long run, like in an xc race. But in an off road time trail you aren't riding as long, so you should have energy to burn if for some reason you chose to.
But I don't think people are understanding what I am describing because what I'm talking about doesn't burn extra energy. It conserves it by maintaining your momentum. I talked about coming into a turn fast, lightening up the rear wheel and sliding it around to get through a corner faster . I have not seen many people master this technique so it doesn't suprise me that you are having a hard time envisioning what I'm talking about.

[Buck]

Kinda lost me on that one. If you were questioning whether or not I will stop sliding, you're right, I might keep sliding on non-MORC trails. But I meant it when I said I won't skid on MORC trails. I like what MORC has done at Lebanon and Theo and I'd rather have those trails to ride without skidding, than have no trail to ride.
As far what you said about burning extra energy not being a winning combination, you're right that "burning extra energy" will wear you down in the long run, like in an xc race. But in an off road time trail you aren't riding as long, so you should have energy to burn if for some reason you chose to.
But I don't think people are understanding what I am describing because what I'm talking about doesn't burn extra energy. It conserves it by maintaining your momentum. I talked about coming into a turn fast, lightening up the rear wheel and sliding it around to get through a corner faster . I have not seen many people master this technique so it doesn't suprise me that you are having a hard time envisioning what I'm talking about.


mmm, I glide corners, I also go braaaaap. it's fun.
L8R
Buck

[hockeynut]

I might keep sliding on non-MORC trails.
I'd appreciate it if you keeping the intentional "sliding" (if that's what you want to call it) down to a minimum if you ride on Memorial Bluff too. It's not a MORC trail per se but can be damaged just the same....

I'm interested to know. What trails should we be skidding on since we're segregating them now..... (note... skidding isn't a skill on ANY trail that's not say a 4 wheeler trail or something... at least in my mind)

Isaac

[Tetreves]

Kinda lost me on that one. If you were questioning whether or not I will stop sliding, you're right, I might keep sliding on non-MORC trails. But I meant it when I said I won't skid on MORC trails. I like what MORC has done at Lebanon and Theo and I'd rather have those trails to ride without skidding, than have no trail to ride.
As far what you said about burning extra energy not being a winning combination, you're right that "burning extra energy" will wear you down in the long run, like in an xc race. But in an off road time trail you aren't riding as long, so you should have energy to burn if for some reason you chose to.
But I don't think people are understanding what I am describing because what I'm talking about doesn't burn extra energy. It conserves it by maintaining your momentum. I talked about coming into a turn fast, lightening up the rear wheel and sliding it around to get through a corner faster . I have not seen many people master this technique so it doesn't suprise me that you are having a hard time envisioning what I'm talking about.

I understand what you're saying (though I can't do it myself), and if I'm correct, the proper way of doing this technique is actually a full nose wheelie. This also shouldn't have the need for any rear brake at all.

A byproduct of this: you won't damage the trail at all, since the rear wheel isn't on the ground. :D

[Wheels]

Once you get used to using your front brake more effectively you'll find that you can actually get around the corner faster. If your sliding your rear wheel around a corner you're actually loosing speed and have less control (skidding is being out of control) - they key is to even it out and maintain the best speed around the corner as possible.

Once you've slowed down enough without sliding, you can begin pedaling and "push" your front wheel through to the exit - and carry more speed all the way around with less effort.

Here's the rules I use:

1. Brake evenly when coming in to the corner, then begin transfering more brake to the front as you approach the apex.

2. Once you've reached the apex, you should be using very little rear brake (20%) then start feathering off the front brake just as your lean reaches the furthest point inside and begin pedaling.

3. Once you begin your transition back upright let go of the brakes altogether, push your arse into your seat - lean back just a bit and pedal hard.

4. You should find yourself in a drift (both wheels sliding evenly), you can control your direction by counter steering and transfering weight either towards your seat (more traction on the back wheel)- or forward on your bars (more traction on the front wheel).

If you're skidding around a corner you've entered the apex too sharp. Whichever method you use (skidding or controlled) make sure to swing out as much as possible before entering the turn. This also helps establish a smooth arc, so that when you begin your drift you won't be making any sudden adjustments before you hit the apex - and give you more control on the exit in case you need to drift the rear wheel a bit more (as in the described method).

Another thing that helps is to run as low of tire pressure as possible - lower pressure increases traction.

You'll notice that the turns a Theo were designed to be ridden this way - most of the turns have swooping entries and are far enough away from the inside pin (trees, rocks) to allow you to leaned over without hitting your shoulder.

Look at the backslope on the turns too, when possible - we build in a backslope that could be railed like a berm - this helps keep you pointed in the right direction on the exit of the turn, and gives you a last ditch point to pop off of. If you're leaning back you can hit the backslope and pop a power wheelie out of the turn.

Pop your wheel up, pedal and turn your bars to the point where you like to be - your bike will lean in and the wheel should land right where you want to be.

[Chauncy]

In most corners, skidding is slower but in some cases skidding is wayyy faster. Watch the movie "fundementals" or footage of Sam Hill and you'll see.

[Buck]

In most corners, skidding is slower but in some cases skidding is wayyy faster. Watch the movie "fundementals" or footage of Sam Hill and you'll see.

mmm, or watch synopsis...Sam Hill can kill it on the corners!
L8R
Buck

[Wheels]

In most corners, skidding is slower but in some cases skidding is wayyy faster. Watch the movie "fundementals" or footage of Sam Hill and you'll see.

Um, ya... ...

[The Hammer]

I'm interested to know. What trails should we be skidding on since we're segregating them now.....

Isaac
How about The Farm.

[The Hammer]

I understand what you're saying (though I can't do it myself), and if I'm correct, the proper way of doing this technique is actually a full nose wheelie. This also shouldn't have the need for any rear brake at all.

A byproduct of this: you won't damage the trail at all, since the rear wheel isn't on the ground. :D
I think what I have been doing is a hybrid between what you described and a slide/skid. My rear tire is more or less skimming lightly on the ground if that makes sense. I don't think I would be comfortable doing a nose wheelie through a corner. It does require use of the front brake to make the back tire lite. It may be That I haven't perfected it and am not completely getting my back tire off the ground. I used to do it in one spot at Wirth that wasn't a wide sweeping turn but a qiuck zig zag between two trees that were offset. It probably isn't considered a turn in the trail. I think it might have been designed into a mostly straight section to make people slow down. I've inspected the area on my second lap and couldn't see any evidence of me sliding, but I know on a trail with that much use the accumulative effect is detrimental. That is why I'm o.k. with giving it up since MORC asked me to.

[The Hammer]

4. You should find yourself in a drift (both wheels sliding evenly), you can control your direction by counter steering and transfering weight either towards your seat (more traction on the back wheel)- or forward on your bars (more traction on the front wheel).



Another thing that helps is to run as low of tire pressure as possible - lower pressure increases traction.

You'll notice that the turns a Theo were designed to be ridden this way - most of the turns have swooping entries and are far enough away from the inside pin (trees, rocks) to allow you to leaned over without hitting your shoulder.

Look at the backslope on the turns too, when possible - we build in a backslope that could be railed like a berm - this helps keep you pointed in the right direction on the exit of the turn, and gives you a last ditch point to pop off of. If you're leaning back you can hit the backslope and pop a power wheelie out of the turn.

I love doing the two wheel drift. That's a big reason why I like the way Wirth is set up now. (Reason two is that their is vey little climbing). I do that two wheel drift in wide sweeping turns and your advise for those is spot on. But I'm still not sure that it is always faster to roll through tight turns.
I run 37psi in both tires. I tried 35psi but they squish out too much in corners.
I've found that with the big right hand burmed corner after the cement barrier (the one with an option to go around) it is faster to stay inside. I make up ground on the person in front of me and am better set up for the quick left around the trees then I have more speed to go over the little rock section. Other than that I use the burms to corner faster.

[mtnbykr]

How about The Farm.

how about none...

what is the difference btween a morc trail and a non-morc trail that makes you think it's ok to skid/slid/whatever around a corner on the non-morc trail but not on the morc trail??

we work just as hard keeping the trails in dulluth in fine shape, why would you come ride up here and think it's ok to skid around our corners.

i don't understand where you're going w/ this but if you need to skid/slid your rear wheel around a corner, seems to me you're going way to fast for that trail.


kl


i'm w/ buck, i like to go brraaap also...

[Wheels]

I think that's a good point, skidding on any trail is hard on the trail - and in most peoples opinions - uneccessary.

What were advocating is that you expand your skills and learn to turn without skidding. Skidding is a basic skill, one of the first that we all learned - but getting around a corner or down a decline without doing it means learning how to use your front brake.

Many people are afraid of the front brake, thinking that using it will cause you to nose-wheelie or go over the bars - but it's simply not the case.

Honing this skill will make you a better rider, and help to reduce damage to the trails. Seems like a win-win to me.

[Buck]

how bout people learn to ride without using brakes, I find that to the be that fastest way...

*skid* braaaaaaaaaaaap, it makes you faster.
L8R
Buck

[Wheels]

how bout people learn to ride without using brakes, I find that to the be that fastest way...

*skid* braaaaaaaaaaaap, it makes you faster.
L8R
Buck

What an ignorant statement to make Adam - so you never use your brakes? You've learned to ride without using them?

If you want people to take you seriously, drop the the "Freeride means being out of control" mentality and post a knowledgeable response.

It's not like I don't know how to ride "Freeride" style - I was a pro downhiller - and yes, getting to the bottom meant total disregard for the trail - but I can't say I ever rode without using my brakes. Quite the contrary - I learned to control my speed and rely on my front brake (that's why downhill bikes have a 8" rotor on the front and a 6" rotor on the back).

Secondly, we're not talking about downhill trails here - we're talking about 90% of the trails in Minnesota, which are flat in comparison to the stuff you watch in those videos.

This is my MORC Board Member speaking?

"*skid* braaaaaaaaaaaap, it makes you faster."

Great...when are the elections again?

[soupboy]

credits her speed and Godessliness to training with Gracia who rides behind her and warns her to not hit her brakes or he'll run into her. Seems like a good motivator.

They're ok riders too.;)

Is drifting any better than skidding? Where do bees come from? My finger smells.

[The Hammer]

4. You should find yourself in a drift (both wheels sliding evenly), you can control your direction by counter steering and transfering weight either towards your seat (more traction on the back wheel)- or forward on your bars (more traction on the front wheel).


This got me to thinking. Is a two wheel drift acceptable. Doesn't a two wheel drift have an accumulative effect on the trail that can be detrimental. Because what I have been trying to describe all along is essentially a one wheel drift. I am guilty of using the word skid in my original question to Shad. But if you read it carefully you can tell that I am not describing a full on power skid, otherwise there would have been no reason for me to ask the question. If a two wheel drift is acceptable than a one wheel drift should be acceptable. I appologize again because I can tell by the respones that I am not describing this very well. I hear what people are saying about developing your skill and learning to use the front brake properly. What I am saying is that doing a rear wheel drift to maintain more speed through a corner, or a section of trail, is an advanced skill beyond just knowing how to use your front brake properly. We went beyond that discussion a long time ago. Isn't the point of developing skill so that you can go faster and/or be more safe. If a maneuver gets you through the trail faster, wouldn't that be considered skill. And no, I haven't crashed because of doing this. P.S. to mtnbykr, the Farm is a local trail that is being developed into a highway. I can't see the harm in "skidding" there. Again, my original question was about a slide, my fault for not being eloquent. So maybe I should ask my question to Shad (or any trail building efficionado) again since we have cleared up a few things. Is it considered bad for the trail to do a rear tire drift through a section of trail? Again, my apologies for muddling words in the beginning.

[mtnbykr]

P.S. to mtnbykr, the Farm is a local trail that is being developed into a highway. I can't see the harm in "skidding" there.

ps right back at ya bud...

i know what/where the farm is. rode it, crashed on it, know the guys who built it and mammoth. doesn't make any difference what is being built over the farm trails. you develop bad habits that can [and looks like they do] carry over to other trail systems.

you still haven't explained why is ok to skid/slid on non-morc trails.

kl

[mtnbykr]

My finger smells.

like what??

no wait, let me guess...

kl

[Wheels]

Drifting is better than skidding because you don't create breaking bumps or dig in like you do when you skid.

In one case your wheel is moving, the other it's locked up, the moving wheel will cause less damage - especially if they're both moving.

I think the semantic is skidding and scrubbing (drifting). Yes, scrubbing creates erosion - but so does all riding, so you can go slow, go slow and skid, go fast and drift, or go fast and skid. I firmly believe drifting is the responsible and fastest way to get around a turn.

I think the argument about skidding being faster is all relevent to your skill level. I just finsihed a lap at Leb behind Killer'nen and der Beast (I don't know of many people who could keep up with the three of us) - and none of us were skidding.

Control is always faster.

[SpecHR55]

Brake like a racecar...brake before the turn, turn, then accelerate about half way or less through.:)

[Wheels]

Brake like a racecar...brake before the turn, turn, then accelerate about half way or less through.:)

Well if you want put it one sentence :)

That's how motorcycles do it too.

[Buck]

What an ignorant statement to make Adam - so you never use your brakes? You've learned to ride without using them?

If you want people to take you seriously, drop the the "Freeride means being out of control" mentality and post a knowledgeable response.

It's not like I don't know how to ride "Freeride" style - I was a pro downhiller - and yes, getting to the bottom meant total disregard for the trail - but I can't say I ever rode without using my brakes. Quite the contrary - I learned to control my speed and rely on my front brake (that's why downhill bikes have a 8" rotor on the front and a 6" rotor on the back).

Secondly, we're not talking about downhill trails here - we're talking about 90% of the trails in Minnesota, which are flat in comparison to the stuff you watch in those videos.

This is my MORC Board Member speaking?

"*skid* braaaaaaaaaaaap, it makes you faster."

Great...when are the elections again?


Hey Shawn,

Sarcasm my friend, sarcasm. its the internet have fun with it! :etard:

And as for the mentality behind Frers, hey man, I guess all the work I have done to further FR in the state proves that I don't believe in or represent this attitude. The brap thing goes way back to Danimal saying skidding builds up berms, it's a joke.

Right on!!! You were a pro downhiller, cool man that is quite the achievment! I'm glad you know how to ride "freeride Style" whatever that is...I know how to use my brakes too, I also know why DH bikes are set-up 8" and 6" rotors, which you should know that most riders have gone to 8" rotors all around

You are right! We are talking about 90% of the trails in Minnesota! All that was brought up with videos was to watch Sam Hill. That is about it. They have a section in that movie that talks about cornering, and it is really informative!
L8R
Buck
Your loving Board Member.

PS: if you read my other post in this thread you would have seen that I posted what you just said. odd that you didn't see that, I'm pretty sure that was knowledgeable, but hey maybe not.

[The Hammer]

ps right back at ya bud...

i know what/where the farm is. rode it, crashed on it, know the guys who built it and mammoth. doesn't make any difference what is being built over the farm trails. you develop bad habits that can [and looks like they do] carry over to other trail systems.

you still haven't explained why is ok to skid/slid on non-morc trails.

kl Sorry there big shooter. Didn't mean to question your credentials. Now that you showed 'em to me I can see that you must be very powerful and influential. It won't happen again sir.
Now if we can all get over ourselves and have a level headed debate I will get on with it. To answer your question; Shad original asked people to stop skidding. I like to do a maneuver that is like skidding but is actually sliding. I'll call it the Jack Rabbit maneuver. Many people do it incorrectly and actually skid around corners. I didn't think that The Jack Rabbit damaged the trails but I wanted to check with the MORC trail builders and make sure. After all, most people with above average handling skills slide, this much we figured out from this thread. If MORC trail makers tell me stop it, I will. But since it doesn't damage the trail I saw no harm in doing it on non-MORC trails. Don't you follow the wishes of MORC trail builders?

[Wheels]

Hey Shawn,

Right on!!! You were a pro downhiller, cool man that is quite the achievment! I'm glad you know how to ride "freeride Style" whatever that is...I know how to use my brakes too, I also know why DH bikes are set-up 8" and 6" rotors, which you should know that most riders have gone to 8" rotors all around


More sarcasm I assume, it's hard to tell :)

I wasn't trying to boast by saying I've raced downhill, just that people often think that MORC guys don't know how to ride "Wide open" so we dumb things down, and ask you not to skid because it's too extreme for our tastes - so I was prefacing my statements with a qualifier. It obviously holds little value with you, so be it.

I know how DH bikes are set up "now-a-days" - I'm sure those 8" rear rotors are a big help here in Minnesota. I also know that 99.9% of trail riders don't ride bikes over 30 lbs. - so when you quote another rider who is saying that skidding is faster (on the video) I'm going to assume you're agreeing with him - and coming at the issue from a Freerider's perspective.

As far as "Freeride" style goes - I think most people know what I mean - work your butt off on your heavy bike getting to the top and then bomb it, doing everything you can to maintain momentum - including the perquisite skid around every corner.

More power to you Adam.

[Wheels]

Sorry there big shooter. Didn't mean to question your credentials. Now that you showed 'em to me I can see that you must be very powerful and influential. It won't happen again sir.
Now if we can all get over ourselves and have a level headed debate I will get on with it. To answer your question; Shad original asked people to stop skidding. I like to do a maneuver that is like skidding but is actually sliding. I'll call it the Jack Rabbit maneuver. Many people do it incorrectly and actually skid around corners. I didn't think that The Jack Rabbit damaged the trails but I wanted to check with the MORC trail builders and make sure. After all, most people with above average handling skills slide, this much we figured out from this thread. If MORC trail makers tell me stop it, I will. But since it doesn't damage the trail I saw no harm in doing it on non-MORC trails. Don't you follow the wishes of MORC trail builders?

My apologies Mr. Rabbit. Yes, we are superior - one day you will also posses the great knowledge and skill that we have acquired by racing Pro Downhill and analyzing NASCAR, and you will also be capable of taking a turn with precision and grace just as we do - be it the the Farm or the any Official MORC trail.

As soon as you stop skidding... oh, and the "Jack Rabbit" is hereby illegal by decree.

Now, that Adam - is sarcasm...

[The Hammer]

My apologies Mr. Rabbit. Yes, we are superior - one day you will also posses the great knowledge and skill that we have acquired by racing Pro Downhill and analyzing NASCAR, and you will also be capable of taking a turn with precision and grace just as we do - be it the the Farm or the any Official MORC trail.

As soon as you stop skidding... oh, and the "Jack Rabbit" is hereby illegal by decree.

Now, that Adam - is sarcasm...
Not Bad! Did you feel a bit silly saying "the Jack Rabbit" too? I think this thread has gotten enough people fired up. Way to go Shad! In the spirit of keeping the peace I will end my part in thread. Peace out. Braaaaaap

[Buck]

More sarcasm I assume, it's hard to tell :)

I wasn't trying to boast by saying I've raced downhill, just that people often think that MORC guys don't know how to ride "Wide open" so we dumb things down, and ask you not to skid because it's too extreme for our tastes - so I was prefacing my statements with a qualifier. It obviously holds little value with you, so be it.

I know how DH bikes are set up "now-a-days" - I'm sure those 8" rear rotors are a big help here in Minnesota. I also know that 99.9% of trail riders don't ride bikes over 30 lbs. - so when you quote another rider who is saying that skidding is faster (on the video) I'm going to assume you're agreeing with him - and coming at the issue from a Freerider's perspective.

As far as "Freeride" style goes - I think most people know what I mean - work your butt off on your heavy bike getting to the top and then bomb it, doing everything you can to maintain momentum - including the perquisite skid around every corner.

More power to you Adam.
No no no Shawn, more power to YOU.

hmmmm, interesting....I like you description of FR, kinda funny actually...however misguided it may be

I do respect ya for being a downhill racer it's a tough sport to succeed at.
L8R
Buck

[Buck]

Not Bad! Did you feel a bit silly saying "the Jack Rabbit" too? I think this thread has gotten enough people fired up. Way to go Shad! In the spirit of keeping the peace I will end my part in thread. Peace out. Braaaaaap

hahaha, hurray, braaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaapbraaaaaaaap braaaaap,
I'm going to go skid around every corner at Theo. hahahahahaha woooohhoooo,, braaaaaaaaaaaap, braaaaaaaaaap, braaaaaaaaap.

If you wade through all the **** posted you might find some good info here, hahahah
L8R
Buck

[Wheels]

Adam, my apologies for over reacting - I will say it's not the first time I've misinterpreted one of your quick quips. I guess my point on the JackRabbit response is that sarcasm has to be obvious, or else it's open to all kinds of interpretations.

I totally appreciate the work you've done at Steeple Chase, and I do get what your doing is all about (I know you don't skid around every corner, but you guys do lug some extra weight).

Not that this relates to my exchange with Adam, but I think it's interesting that so many times these threads about being a responsible rider come down to "don't tell me how/where to ride" disputes that go nowhere - and make the MORC crowd look like spoilers of some sort.

We were sitting in the parking lot at Leb today and one of the guys I'm talking to says "did you see those two ham-fisters skidding around every corner" He was pointing to a couple of guys in flannel shirts, no helmets.

He said, "ya, they were seeing if they could berm off the trees in the corners, trying to hit them". It's kind of a neanderthal approach to riding in my opinion, and was apparent to everyone sitting there that is was such.

It's like some people want to just argue about it to the death - purely for the antagonism of it.

It's all pretty simple - we're just saying "hey, if you skid less the trail will last longer and stay in better shape - here's how you do it... we design this stuff to make it faster not to skid..., etc..

No superiority complex - just trying to explain it.

[The Hammer]

Adam, my apologies for over reacting - I will say it's not the first time I've misinterpreted one of your quick quips. I guess my point on the JackRabbit response is that sarcasm has to be obvious, or else it's open to all kinds of interpretations.

I totally appreciate the work you've done at Steeple Chase, and I do get what your doing is all about (I know you don't skid around every corner, but you guys do lug some extra weight).

Not that this relates to my exchange with Adam, but I think it's interesting that so many times these threads about being a responsible rider come down to "don't tell me how/where to ride" disputes that go nowhere - and make the MORC crowd look like spoilers of some sort.





No superiority complex - just trying to explain it.
This is the kind of weenie welding that should be happening on this forum. I'm glad it ended on a positive note.

[manual63]

What an ignorant statement to make Adam

This is what Adam does when he is bored. He likes to stir people up on the forums and then later says he doesn't mean it. My opinion, if you are not adding to the discussion, why add fire to it for fun????

[manual63]

Not Bad! Did you feel a bit silly saying "the Jack Rabbit" too? I think this thread has gotten enough people fired up. Way to go Shad!

Yeah, I should have titled it, use your front brake. Really, that's what I wanted to do the riding tip on. Shawn and I posted some good info on how to use your front brake effectively.........but you got to look through a lot of silly posts to find it. I might just cut and paste the good stuff to a new thread that's titled correctly.......:):laugh:

[manual63]

hmmmm, interesting....I like you description of FR, kinda funny actually...however misguided it may be


How can his description of FR be misguided?? Freeride is a lot of things. People like Shawn and I have been freeriding for well over 25 years. Sure, it wasn't called freeriding back then.....but it was basically exploring the limits of what can be done on a bicycle. People like Shawn and I were doing stuff on bicycles before the sports were even created. Shawn was racing BMX and dirt jumping just when the sport of BMX was getting started. I started doing freestyle tricks on my BMX racing bike before the sport of freestyle and freestyle bikes were created. I think we know freeride when we see it.

These are not bragging rights, by the way. This does not make Shawn and I better than the newer generation of younger riders. It's just what we did and we didn't know any different. We had no idea at the time we were part of the innovators of a new and great sport that would later evolve into BMX racing, BMX freestyle, and now mountain bike freeride. There are others in these forums and in this town that were all a part of it. People like GeneO, Hurl, John Palmersheim, Steev (who has recently been on here), and a lot of others I can't think of off the top of my head.

So Adam, enjoy what you have and what you do. But don't get so offended or make such a big deal out of us old timers showing/explaining our roots. These roots are where modern day freeride came from......so enjoy it to its fullest and be part of the next generation of innovators, without crapping on the ones that helped innovate to where things are today.