Wheel Building?

[h2oskierc]

Anybody know anything about wheel building? I came across a slightly used Avid front disk brake on ebay, and got a decent price for it, but now I need the wheel for it. I am thinking that I want to just swap the hub on my existing wheel out for a disk hub, is that possible?

I would consider doing it myself, but would also consider having a bike shop do it, if I could find one that would without selling me the brakes. Obviously, I am trying to cust costs (never a good idea).

Thanks again for your wisdom,

Chris

[Kosk]

You'll likely need new spokes dude. You need to calculate spoke length based on the rim and hub dimesions, I bet it aint the same as what you have now. Might as well do new nipples while you are at it. That'll run you about $20~$30ish maybe. Then the cost of the build, which can sometimes be done for a 12er or case, depends on who, when, and how you ask. If you want it done right, try One on One. They should at least give you a decent estimate, then you can decide what you want to do from there.

[h2oskierc]

Is it something that I could do myself, if I can find some poor soul to loan me a truing stand, or is it the kind of thing that needs to be done by a pro?

[bigwheel]

What he said. Your spokes will be the wrong length, so the only thing you would be able to reuse is your rim.

I suggest keeping your old wheel as is (spare for some other bike), and build/buy another one. You might also keep an eye on eBay for a ready-to-ride disc compatible wheel.

[bigwheel]

Is it something that I could do myself, if I can find some poor soul to loan me a truing stand, or is it the kind of thing that needs to be done by a pro?

It depends on how much time, frustration and learning experience you are willing to invest. Since it is your front wheel, you can use a set of forks and V-brakes as a make-shift truing stand, and use the "plink" method for testing tension.

However, if you don't know where to start, you might want to watch someone else build a wheel before trying it yourself. Even with the right equipment, it will take you several wheels before you will be able to build one that will stay true.

Here is a good article on how to build your own wheels:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

All that said, you will likely be able to find a pre-built wheel for around the same price that you will pay for the hub+rim+spokes. Keep an eye on Nashbar and Performance. Within the next month, you will probably start seeing them on clearance for cheap. However, plan to have to re-true them after the first few rides. The wheels are build by machine, and they don't do a good job with spoke tension.

[soupboy]

...internship is scheduled for winter 05/06. Until then I recommend going to Reed at One on One for your wheelbuilding needs.

From what I can tell wheelbuilding is as much art as science. QBP makes some pretty good 1/8 man 7/8 machine built wheels.

Unless you "enjoy" tinkering it might end up being a pretty frustrating experience...especially if you're looking to ride immediately.

[Beau]

Wheelbuilding is not an art. Everything can be measured, and it's simply having the right tools, the right parts and being consistant.

I have built many wheels. The only one I would consider a art, is twist lacing. Which is debatable.

[soupboy]

...Sure, you can measure everything to .000000000% and build a wheel by the books. That will be me next winter.

However, if you've ever seen an experienced wheelbuilder go at it you'll realize they aren't doing as much measuring as you'd think. They develop a feel for it. It is not like cutting a steerer, bleeding brakes or tuning a drivetain.

A good wheelbuilder is like a good cook - not much measuring of ingredients but things consistently come out tasting great.

Point in case - QBP has wheels that are machined prepped and hand finished. If all they had to do was measure tension or torque specs on each spoke then why would humans necessary?

Wheelbuilding is not an art. Everything can be measured, and it's simply having the right tools, the right parts and being consistant.

I have built many wheels. The only one I would consider a art, is twist lacing. Which is debatable.

[bigwheel]

...Sure, you can measure everything to .000000000% and build a wheel by the books. That will be me next winter.

However, if you've ever seen an experienced wheelbuilder go at it you'll realize they aren't doing as much measuring as you'd think. They develop a feel for it. It is not like cutting a steerer, bleeding brakes or tuning a drivetain.

I'm going to catch a lot of hell for this statement, but I believe THAT is the reason you can build a wheel better than the *average* LBS mechanic. The reason they don't use the measuring tools is because it takes a lot longer to keep going back and re-measuring, than it takes to plink on the spokes with a screwdriver.

No question, the good wheel builders are good at building wheels. However, they don't have the luxury of spending multiple hours fine tuning a wheel when they are only going to get 20 bucks for the labor.

I don't know this for a fact, but I will bet my next paycheck that Lance's wheel builder is using a tool to measure the individual spokes.

A good wheelbuilder is like a good cook - not much measuring of ingredients but things consistently come out tasting great.

Point in case - QBP has wheels that are machined prepped and hand finished. If all they had to do was measure tension or torque specs on each spoke then why would humans necessary?

It is my understanding that master chefs are pretty strict about measuring ingredients.

I know that machines currently suck at wheel truing, but it is just a matter of time before they will get really good at it. RIP John Henry.

Have a good weekend everyone. I'll check back on Sunday to see all the flames.

[nigel]

I'm going to catch a lot of hell for this statement, but I believe THAT is the reason you can build a wheel better than the *average* LBS mechanic. The reason they don't use the measuring tools is because it takes a lot longer to keep going back and re-measuring, than it takes to plink on the spokes with a screwdriver.

No question, the good wheel builders are good at building wheels. However, they don't have the luxury of spending multiple hours fine tuning a wheel when they are only going to get 20 bucks for the labor.

I don't know this for a fact, but I will bet my next paycheck that Lance's wheel builder is using a tool to measure the individual spokes.



It is my understanding that master chefs are pretty strict about measuring ingredients.

I know that machines currently suck at wheel truing, but it is just a matter of time before they will get really good at it. RIP John Henry.

Have a good weekend everyone. I'll check back on Sunday to see all the flames.


Geeze Bob, where should i start, guess we'll chat next trail work!

[soupboy]

all I can tell you is that my best and longest lasting wheels have been hand built with minimal measuring.

Two sets - 29er and 26er that have literally never needed truing despite my lack of finesse and big carcass.

On the other hand, I've seen thoroughly measured, machine built wheels show problems midway through their first ride.

I'm going to catch a lot of hell for this statement, but I believe THAT is the reason you can build a wheel better than the *average* LBS mechanic. The reason they don't use the measuring tools is because it takes a lot longer to keep going back and re-measuring, than it takes to plink on the spokes with a screwdriver.

No question, the good wheel builders are good at building wheels. However, they don't have the luxury of spending multiple hours fine tuning a wheel when they are only going to get 20 bucks for the labor.

I don't know this for a fact, but I will bet my next paycheck that Lance's wheel builder is using a tool to measure the individual spokes.

It is my understanding that master chefs are pretty strict about measuring ingredients.

I know that machines currently suck at wheel truing, but it is just a matter of time before they will get really good at it. RIP John Henry.

Have a good weekend everyone. I'll check back on Sunday to see all the flames.

[badandyruh]

Hand built wheels hands down. Machine built wheels aren't nearly as strong. I would say read up on it and then take a crack at it. Sheldon Brown's site is probablly the most thourough. Must have proper spoke length. I'm personally against spoke prep, i feel it hardens over time and almost acts like a lock-tite whiche leads to replacing spoke and nipple. I usually use Finish Line Cross Country lube on my nipples. The lacing process is the easy part. Bringing the wheel up to tension is where it gets tricky.
I am a firm believer in using the proper tools throughout the entire build. Yea if you're a good wheelbuilder you can tension a wheel by feel but i feel the most accurate reading is with a good ol' tensiometer. Proper spoke tension is so crucial. Mainly in th rear wheel drive side. Each spoke has to be exact. the non-drive is more lenient with tension. I've had so many wheels come back to the shop with broken spokes due to uneven spoke tension. Thats my 2 cents. Cheers

[h2oskierc]

I may just give it a shot. Specialized uses the same rim and spokes on their Hardrock disc, just a Joy-Tech disc hub, instead of the one on my bike. I am going to see if I can locate that hub, and then I'll probably give it a shot. I can get that (albeit cheap) hub, a truing stand and a tensiometer, and will then have all I need to build my own wheels when I can afford really nice parts. I've got a book and maintenance and repair that has some nice pictures, and there is the website that was posted as well.

Plus, a guy can never have enough tools.

Now I just need to convince the wife that a truing stand IS a useful investment.
Can you say "It also serves as a nice candelabra/hang dryer" with a straight face? :cheesy:

[Dominican boy]

Any questions of Wheel Building stuff. Go to Reed. He hooked me up fast w/ a mean wheelset! Really he has the good wheelbuilding Foo!!

[bigwheel]

I hope everyone had as nice of a weekend as I did.

I was by no means saying that machine-built wheels are better. Machine-built wheels currently suck. What I was saying is that they will keep getting better and better at making the machines until the machines can build a better wheel than an *avereage* mechanic.

I'm also saying that you will do a better job building your wheel if you measure individual spokes with a gauge. The wheel may be true, but you will often find adjacent spokes with very different tensions.

[robc]

Hey guys, I have been reading some stuff about wheel building and machine built wheels, and the concensus is that hand built wheel are "hands down" better and stronger than machine built. Now I am wondering _WHY_ this is so. None of the sources I have seen expound on this.

Here's my question : What is the difference between a machine built wheel and a hand built one if you have checked and adjusted spoke tension on a machine built wheel after buying it?
What makes it stronger/better? After all is said and done, in each case, don't you simply have : a hub, a rim, and spokes laced in a certain pattern connecting the 2, hopefully at a consistent tension?

Being a total noob to wheel building, I guess I don't understand how the final product ends up being so much better. Please enlighten me, O wheel building gurus.

Thanks for the info!
RobC

[TML]

. . . if you have checked and adjusted spoke tension on a machine built wheel after buying it?


I'm guessing this is the key point. The vast majority of people will not think to do this, let alone know how to, if they did think of it. For people that don't wrench their own stuff, a hand built wheel is strong and ready to go when it hits the buyers hands.

[bigwheel]

What is the difference between a machine built wheel and a hand built one if you have checked and adjusted spoke tension on a machine built wheel after buying it?

In other words, if you let the machine insert the spokes and start threading the nipples, then do the truing yourself. Then IMO, there is no difference.

However, my assumption (possibly wrong) is that the current batch of wheel building machines only look at the trueness of the wheel, and do not pay attention to individual spoke tensions as much.

You can get a wheel pretty darn straight but have adjacent spokes with very different tensions. This is bad because:
1: If you really nail a rock or log or you crash, the wheel takes a lot of stress. It is the tighter spokes that have to suck up all this stress, causing the spokes (usually the hook ends) to deform.
I think that because of this reason, machines generally don't tighten spokes quite as much as they should. They don't want to risk breaking a very tight spoke or pulling it through the rim.
2: When bouncing around, you can sometimes deform the rim enough that the loose spoke no longer has any tension, and the nipple is able to spin. Loctite helps prevent this from happening, but there are many wheel builders that say a properly built wheel will remain true without any loctite.

A good wheel builder can feel the spokes, and plink them for sound to get them pretty close. IMHO, A non-professional can do as good of a job using a tension meter, but it will take us a lot longer to achieve the same result.

[robc]

That sounds like a good explanation. I am currently building up a bike with a build kit that included some prebuilt wheels. They are XT hub/Rhyno Lite rims. So what should I do to get them ready for prime time? Should I get a tension meter and try to equalize the spoke tensions, or just start riding em and true them as necessary? Thanks guys!

Along the lines of the bike build, do I need to buy any tools like a cable puller to install brakes/derailleurs? Or can I get along without one? I'd like to know what tools are needs vs nice-to-haves. Cable cutter? Or use a dremel tool? etc etc...
Also, on things like my disc brakes, they list specifc torque values to tighten the rotor mount screws and brake body mount screws. HOw necessary is it to use a torque wrench? Do I need that also? Thanks again guys! (sorry to hijack the wheel build thread...)

RobC

[bigwheel]

If you have a truing stand, I'd recommend taking a quick pass over the wheels, plinking spokes and listening for ones that are different from the others. If you find two nearby spokes that sound different, you might want to even them out, then re-true the spot.

Also, take a look at someone's wheel that was built by a good wheel builder, and see if your spokes are as tight as theirs.

Your call on the tension meter. Most people don't use them. I started using one last winter, and believe the wheel comes out better.

As far as other tools, you will probably want to start with a kit for the stuff you need all the time. Nashbar and Performance both sell well-stocked toolboxes at a reasonable price. That'll have a cable cutter, hub tools, bottom bracket wrenches, cluster wrench, etc. However, they don't include some of the expensive tools, such as a headset press, BB thread chaser, derailleur hanger gauge, etc.

I personally don't use a torque gauge for brakes and stuff. (although I'll probably buy one this winter.) If I'm concerned about breaking something, I'll usually "choke up" on the wrench so that I don't get much leverage. For your brakes, you just need to avoid stripping the threads.

BTW, I finally broke down and bought an assorted box of bike screws and bolts. That's something that I should have done a long time ago.


That sounds like a good explanation. I am currently building up a bike with a build kit that included some prebuilt wheels. They are XT hub/Rhyno Lite rims. So what should I do to get them ready for prime time? Should I get a tension meter and try to equalize the spoke tensions, or just start riding em and true them as necessary? Thanks guys!

Along the lines of the bike build, do I need to buy any tools like a cable puller to install brakes/derailleurs? Or can I get along without one? I'd like to know what tools are needs vs nice-to-haves. Cable cutter? Or use a dremel tool? etc etc...
Also, on things like my disc brakes, they list specifc torque values to tighten the rotor mount screws and brake body mount screws. HOw necessary is it to use a torque wrench? Do I need that also? Thanks again guys! (sorry to hijack the wheel build thread...)

RobC