Interesting conversation tonight at Leb.

[LightWeight]

I had to bug out early on the skills session tonight due to being paged at work... :mad:

Anyway, as I was packing my bike up, some dude approached me stating he had broken his collar bone hitting a tree on some part of the expert loop. He was trying to get me to write up something stating how the trail was not marked appropriately and because of that, he had an accident. He figured if he got enough people to write a letter to Dakota Co., he'd get some $ out of the deal. I had no idea which part of the trail he was talking about - there's lots of trees. I'm not saying he was lying about getting hurt, it just seemed kind of fishy when he was trying to tell me how cool my Raleigh was. I know better than that - the only cool Raleigh I've seen is Mr. Holtz's.

To make a long story short, did this guy talk to anyone else tonight?

[At the Gates 2121]

I had to bug out early on the skills session tonight due to being paged at work... :mad:

Anyway, as I was packing my bike up, some dude approached me stating he had broken his collar bone hitting a tree on some part of the expert loop. He was trying to get me to write up something stating how the trail was not marked appropriately and because of that, he had an accident. He figured if he got enough people to write a letter to Dakota Co., he'd get some $ out of the deal. I had no idea which part of the trail he was talking about - there's lots of trees. I'm not saying he was lying about getting hurt, it just seemed kind of fishy when he was trying to tell me how cool my Raleigh was. I know better than that - the only cool Raleigh I've seen is Mr. Holtz's.

To make a long story short, did this guy talk to anyone else tonight?

I bet he wore headphones and no helmet and dark sunglasses when he ran into the tree

[jitterjepp]

I bet he wore headphones and no helmet and dark sunglasses when he ran into the tree
Doesn't matter if he has 20/20 vision and it was high noon on a cool dry sunny day. Doesn't matter if the trail was marked or not. HE went out there and got on a bike and hurt HIMSELF. It is his problem. In other states you can't sue anyone for stuff like that. Does the fool need to have a sign for every crack in the sidewalk posted so he doesn't trip. The responsibility lies with the rider to check things out ahead of time. He hurt himself because he did not check out things ahead of time. He was obviously going faster than he should have been and it is his own fault. Now he has a broken collar bone which will probably heal fine and he will lead a perfectly normal life but now he is trying to get something because he was idiot and trying to build an army of signers for his cause. Tell the fool to get on but first ask him why he is trying to take something from us.

Thats what I say.

[LightWeight]

Tell the fool to get on but first ask him why he is trying to take something from us.

Thats what I say.

I wish I would have had more time to talk to him - ask him why he would want to do something (like suing the county) that could potentially close the trail. Man, I always think of good questions to ask after the conversation is over.....

[bigwheel]

Sure. All he has to do is get a bunch of signatures, then HE can get a lot of money, while closing down the trail for the people who helped him get it.

I can imagine all kinds of people lining up to help him --- NOT

[Thewavebb]

what a turd sandwich

[socrates]

I bet he wore headphones and no helmet and dark sunglasses when he ran into the tree

I thought Shad was teaching the class :crazy:

[Thewavebb]

I thought Shad was teaching the class :crazy:

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[Tetreves]

I didn't see anyone like that, and I stayed the whole time.

[soupboy]

helmetless dude talking about BMX, skills and his love for his P2?

[nigel]

. I know better than that - the only cool Raleigh I've seen is Mr. Holtz's.

Now if I would only get out and ride it lol :crazy: Hows yours riding? Call me up for a ride man, i get to have Thurs-Sat off the next few weeks.

D

[Tim Wegner]

Just got a call from Dakota County Risk Management. This guy apparently has made a claim. So even though he may not be the most inteeligent person he is looking for some cash!!! I am to meet with Risk Management today at 1:30 so they can take pictures and discuss the guys claim.

Hope we are not becoming the next California!
TW

[iceskier]

Will he be there too? Maybe everyone should be there to discuss this further with him. I can't stand it when people don't take responsibility for there own actions!!! :mad: :mad: It really chaps my a$$!! More than riding all day long!!!:crazy2:

[nigel]

Hope it all goes well Tim. Not to completely dismiss the guys claim, but there is a sign posted before you enter the "X" section and another before the "XX" section. My guess is he did not read and/or had a bad accident and cant get over rider error. I broke a helmet at Leb once right after the "X" opened, laid me out for a few minutes, but heck, if your afraid of crashing you should not be riding a bike.

D

[Wolfchimp]

I'd love to hear more about this guy's ride. I am guessing he will just conveniently forget some of the details, like the fact that he is an ignorant fool and that he was riding a section that was more difficult than he could handle. I wouldnt be surprised if he wasnt wearing a helmet. Geez... I hate people like him. They dont realize that the actions they take to better themselves will wreck it for everyone else.They cant just suck it up and come to the conclusion that the real problem was not the trail...it was all their own fault. Well...hopefully it all pans out and we dont get more regulations slapped on the trails because this 'no talent, a** clown' cant ride a bike.

[Tim Wegner]

if allowed, I will post the details here after the meeting.

TW

[LightWeight]

Now if I would only get out and ride it lol :crazy: Hows yours riding? Call me up for a ride man, i get to have Thurs-Sat off the next few weeks.

D

Will do.:mobile:

[bigwheel]

Good luck, Tim. If you or Dakota need anyone to vouch for the trail being well-designed, well-built and having no "surprises", you know where to find us.

Jeez. All this for a measly broken collarbone. What a wuss! Just put on the figure-8 strap and wait 6 weeks. It's not a big deal. (I've busted both of mine)

[EmL34]

All this for a measly broken collarbone.

I thought breaking your collarbone was a badge of honor, if you're a biker.

[RyanVerhulst]

damn, if I could get some $$$ for everytime I got banged up at Lebanon, I'd be bloody rich.

Monday night, bruised both arms and legs (there weren't any signs that told me where the slippery parts are when it's wet). :beer_yum:

Last week, I fell off the top of the teeter, that drew blood. I didn't see any signs warning me about bleeding.

I'm a beginner, a couple times at Battlecreek in the spring and then I graduated to Lebanon in May. I know how to take my licks for the thrill of riding Lebanon. And my beaten body is my badge of honor. :etard:

[robc]

You know, maybe I could justify more rides each week if I start thinking about mountain biking as a steady revenue stream. Ride hard, get hurt, make cash. Seems easy enough. Maybe slip and fall in the porta-john afterwards to add a bit more coin to the settlement.

[bigwheel]

I'm a beginner, a couple times at Battlecreek in the spring and then I graduated to Lebanon in May. I know how to take my licks for the thrill of riding Lebanon. And my beaten body is my badge of honor. :etard:

By definition, any time you try to get better by riding something tougher, you are on something that is above your ability. And, when you ride something above your ability, you are likely to fall.
Therefore, if you are trying to become a better rider, you are likely to fall.

For any geeks that remember their first-order predicate logic, I think that's called Modes Ponens.
For everyone else, it's the old saying "no falls, no balls".

[Tex]

The responsibility lies with the rider to check things out ahead of time. He hurt himself because he did not check out things ahead of time. He was obviously going faster than he should have been and it is his own fault. Now he has a broken collar bone which will probably heal fine and he will lead a perfectly normal life but now he is trying to get something because he was idiot and trying to build an army of signers for his cause. Tell the fool to get on but first ask him why he is trying to take something from us.

Thats what I say.

I agree. Unfortunately, there will always be some lawyer out there who will tell him that they can make him some money from his own foolishness. Just like the women who tried to sue Wendy's for finding a chunk of finger in her Chili. I'll bet you this guy is the same way. Is there anyway we can do a history check on this dork? I'll bet he has made claims against hundreds of people/businesses, and I can guarantee you, he isn't thinking about how this will effect anyone else.

[flea]

I am still looking for the deer that cut me off on the trail last fall, causing me to crash and sending me to the chiropractor. I would like to sue this animal, if you see it let me know. It is a 6 pointer with a scar on it's left side and a nasty glow in it's eyes.

[Danimal]

Did anyone get this guys name? If he put in a complaint with Dakota County Risk Management can we get ahold of his name, address? I would accidentally like to bump into his other collar bone for being a greedy sniveling dork.

Man I have broken many bones in my days (over 15), some were even from brawls in my younger days, and I never, EVER, made someone else pay for my injuries. I figure if I hurt myself doing something stupid or not paying attention it was my own fault, if I got the crap kicked out of me and I had to pay a doctors bill, I had better not lose on the next scrap or at least move a little faster to get the other dude down before he did any damage to me.

I really would like to know who this clown is.

[Uncle Leo]

Is there an email or phone for Dakota county where a bunch of us can weigh in with our opinion that the trail is well-marked, understood to be "at your own risk", yadda yadda?
Or maybe something in the form of a signed petition would help?

[LightWeight]

Did anyone get this guys name?

I'm sure he told me, but for the life of me I can't remember what it was...

[manual63]

I thought Shad was teaching the class :crazy:

Just to clarify to everyone, this guy was not involved in the Skills Session. I know Dave is joking, but I want that to be clear.

As far as myself, I crash and get hurt all the time. My ribs have been sore for a month from a crash at Leb. My crash was due to a slight amount of mud just before a tree and I slid a bit causing my bars to clip the tree.....I was going really..really fast. No biggie, my ribs will heal and I will ride again. I have had 3 very expensive knee surgerys on my left knee. The origianal injury was at a BMX national held by the ABA. Nope, never even once thought of sueing. I know the risks when I choose to get on my bike and if it's a compitition, the risks are much greater.....especially when 7 others guys are jabbing you with elbows. My knee is messed up to this day and I have an appointment in a two weeks or so to get it looked at again....maybe more surgery. I am willing to do it so I can ride my bike like the fool I am and hurt it again.......:).....at my own expense.

Last night there were a lot of muddy spots. The trail was borderline and the X and XX loops, which we skipped, were way too muddy. Mud and corners and rocks don't mix. This guy should have had better judgement and I honestly don't think he will get very far.

[RyanVerhulst]

Did anyone get this guys name? If he put in a complaint with Dakota County Risk Management can we get ahold of his name, address? I would accidentally like to bump into his other collar bone for being a greedy sniveling dork.

Man I have broken many bones in my days (over 15), some were even from brawls in my younger days, and I never, EVER, made someone else pay for my injuries. I figure if I hurt myself doing something stupid or not paying attention it was my own fault, if I got the crap kicked out of me and I had to pay a doctors bill, I had better not lose on the next scrap or at least move a little faster to get the other dude down before he did any damage to me.

I really would like to know who this clown is.

That might not exactly be the direction this should be handled with. I'm all for publishing this person's name, address, phone number, license plate and bike style, just so anyone that ever sees him around or on one of the AWESOME trails can tell him he's unwanted. Physical harm to someone like this is only stooping to his level. He probably hit that tree on purpose because he has nothing better to do than sue.

[manual63]

Man, reading about this is kinda scary. I certainly hope that one guy can't mess it up for all of us.

Has anyone ever filed a claim with Dakota Co. before from a Leb crash? If so, what was the result and how did Dakota Co. react to it?

If this is the first time, I sure hope Dakota doesn't panic like most cities/organizations do. Does the IMBA have any info on how to handle this sort of thing?

Also, I don't think a bunch of us should start contacting Dakota Co. and giving our own opinions. We will get that chance, likely those of us where were there last night, if it comes to that. The more we bring it up with them, the bigger a deal we make out of it and the more likely Dakota Co. will worry and maybe close the trail until a conclusion is made. Be patient please....let's ride this out and be smart about it.

[berrywise]

Reminds me of the ads that pop up from time to time in the back of mountain bike magazines asking if you have been hurt while cycling. Freedom of the press in all but it really smacks against what the magazine should (I suppose money rules all) stand for.

[Tex]

Physical harm to someone like this is only stooping to his level.

Don't worry, if things get too far out of hand, I know some people that can make it look like an accident. ;)

Before anyone gets their panties in a bunch, know this: I'm only kidding. I am not threatening physical harm to anyone, I don't not know anyone "that could make it look like an accident". I was only trying to be funny.

[homebrewbiker]

I have a nice scar on my shin from getting stuck on some rocks, trying get out of my pedals and slicing a gash into the shin (still not sure if it was a rock or the pedal). It's my Lebanon badge of honor:crazy2: Every crash I learn something, so Lebanon is very educational for me.

[Burke]

Also, I don't think a bunch of us should start contacting Dakota Co. and giving our own opinions. We will get that chance, likely those of us where were there last night, if it comes to that. The more we bring it up with them, the bigger a deal we make out of it and the more likely Dakota Co. will worry and maybe close the trail until a conclusion is made. Be patient please....let's ride this out and be smart about it.

This is a first, quoting Shad and agreeing with it...

At this point, MORC and Dakota county are still in an investigative phase. We don't have enough info at this time to do anything that will bring about a positive effect.

Let's hold tight for the time being, and if action is needed, we'll get the word out.

Thanks
Scott

[dave t]

Has anyone ever filed a claim with Dakota Co. before from a Leb crash? If so, what was the result and how did Dakota Co. react to it?

If this is the first time, I sure hope Dakota doesn't panic like most cities/organizations do. Does the IMBA have any info on how to handle this sort of thing?

I don't know about filing any claims but there have been several times that I have heard of riders getting really wrecked on the old downhills out there. I am almost certain Dakota knows about them and they also know how the trail is marked. This guys little boo boo seems pretty minor to get all worried about.

Also, I would have to think that, since he said he was in the X loop, he knew that it was the X loop and would have to consider himself capable of the challenge.
If not, he is negligent in ensuring his own safety and if they had to close the trail, sue him for the loss of use and even recover damages since MORC has lots of $$ invested in Leb. Many, many bikers use Leb, It could be a class-action suit.

I'll donate my settlement to the Murphy trail fund.

[jkalla]

A good read on this topic for anyone who is interested:


http://www.imba.com/resources/trail_issues/liability_primer.html

[jzipfel]

A good read on this topic for anyone who is interested:


http://www.imba.com/resources/trail_issues/liability_primer.html


Here is another source of info from the League of Minn. Cities.

http://www.lmnc.org/pdfs/MedicalEmergencies.pdf#search='minnesota%20Recreat ional%20Use%20Immunity'

[At the Gates 2121]

I thought breaking your collarbone was a badge of honor, if you're a biker.

who broke their ribs out in the double x a few years ago and left blood on a rock and didn't go look for money???

This guy ticks me off. If you get hurt mountian biking its not others peoples fault. I remember a crazy steep downill at battle creek doing a number on me and my bike I got up fell down got up and fell down again yeah down for the count didn't care cause it was my fault for doing something out of my ability.

[Danimal]

That's what's wrong with America today, we've all became a bunch of wussies. Everyone is so concerned about hurting other peoples sensitivites and being politically correct. That's why we have kids today that show no respect to their elders, people running around suing other people for absolutely no reason, and because they can get away with it. It's freaking rediculous. Man when I was a kid if you were nuts enough to try and sue someone for something stupid, someone would crack you and give you something to sue about. If a kid lipped you off and gave you a hard time you smacked him. Nowadays kids know they can get away with it, they know you are afraid to do anything because of the way society is. Afraid!

Maybe we should start taking action when we encounter people like this and set them straight, confront them at least, let them know how stupid they are for what they are doing to other people. I'm not saying get into a fist fight with them but let them know the impact it will have on the people as a whole.

America needs to start calling it like it is! And quit worrying about what's his nut's feelings. Man my blood is up. AAARRRGGGGH!

[manual63]

What would happen if some kid was playing baseball in the field right next to Leb and they broke their leg running and sliding? Would they sue? If so, would the city close the diamond?

MTB trails should be looked at the same way. The real issue is that some sports are perfectly fine with injuries, but others are not. For some reason, mountian biking, BMX, skateboarding, and a slew of other smaller sports are considered high risk.....when in reality they are not.

I knew a kid who broke his neck playing football at my school. No biggie, it's part of the game. He was healing for almost 2 years and no one even thought of sueing. Strange society we now live in....very strange.

[jeffgude]

Reminds me of the ads that pop up from time to time in the back of mountain bike magazines asking if you have been hurt while cycling. Freedom of the press in all but it really smacks against what the magazine should (I suppose money rules all) stand for.


Actually I think most of those lawyers ARE cyclists who will represent you if you're hit by a car while riding.

[Trevize1138]

Really, though ...

Which is worse: the guy actually trying to sue the county for money or us worrying about the guy trying to sue the county for money.

When I worked a customer service job I used to get two or three legal threats a week, all of them starting with "I'm gonna get my lawer and ... !!!"

Mmm hmm ... right. Tell me, what's your lawyer's name? I assume you have this person on speed dial, right? What's that? Oh, you don't really have a lawyer? Oh, so you mean you're not serious about suing us over paying $19.95 for a product that you had difficulty downloading and then tried your best not to get real help for it? Hmm ... how interesting.

Someone would have to have a *very* good case for neglegence or liability to get anything from anyone, especially at such a well-marked trail as Leb. Plus, the fact that he was talking about suing the *county* shows he really didn't know what he was talking about because he obviously had no knowledge of MORC.

Be happy. He's a blow-hard :).

[BridgeR]

Still one of my favorite lines... Bones heal and chicks dig scars, so why doesn't this guy suck it up like every other REAL rider out there and accept the fact that there are inherent risks with mountain biking... i.e. - ride within your ability unless you can handle the lumps with it.

[Danimal]

Amen Brother!

[transplant]

I had to bug out early on the skills session tonight due to being paged at work... :mad:

Anyway, as I was packing my bike up, some dude approached me stating he had broken his collar bone hitting a tree on some part of the expert loop. He was trying to get me to write up something stating how the trail was not marked appropriately and because of that, he had an accident. He figured if he got enough people to write a letter to Dakota Co., he'd get some $ out of the deal. I had no idea which part of the trail he was talking about - there's lots of trees. I'm not saying he was lying about getting hurt, it just seemed kind of fishy when he was trying to tell me how cool my Raleigh was. I know better than that - the only cool Raleigh I've seen is Mr. Holtz's.

To make a long story short, did this guy talk to anyone else tonight?

I have to ask. Had he just done this horrific act of self damage, or was this a while ago? If I have a broken collar bone (and I have, from falling off my bike), I'm not going to stand there and tell you your bike is cool or try to get your signature. I'm going to go get help because it HURTS! My point is, if this happened a while ago, and he's just now getting around to doing something about it, it might be too late for any legal action.

[iceskier]

You forgot the "Glory is forever" finish to the line.

[manual63]

You forgot the "Glory is forever" finish to the line.

"Pain is temporary....Glory is forever!"

-- Evil Knievel

Matt Hoffman used this line too.

[BridgeR]

Someone tell this Sally to take up croquet. (No offense to you die-hard croquet players out there.:scream: )

[RyanVerhulst]

I'll be out there crashing into trees and rocks in a couple hours

[Tim Wegner]

Just got done with the meeting with Dakota. First off, Dakota self insures for liability. That means that they are very interested in NOT SETTING a precedent and giving this guy any money. Insurance companies are more interested in what is the least cost to them. Usually that means settling and not fighting the suit.

A suit has been filed against Dakota County but it does not appear to have merit for the following reasons:
1. Municipalities have a certain degree of immunity
2. The trails is regulary monitored and maintained by MORC
3. Written reports are sent to Dakota each month discussing trail conditions and maintenance issues. (thank-you trail stewards)
4. The accident apparently happened in the last 1/3 of the expert trail and the rider had to ride over about 35 similar log crossings before he came to the one that gave him a problem.
5. The brown signs that we have put up at the entrance to x is marked with the universal signs of difficulty.
6. Mountain biking is a dangerous sport you need to determine your comfort level of riding.


In response to the blood on the rock and my broken rib---that IS a badge of pride and every time I ride past that rock I think of the fall. Makes me a bit tentative in the rock garden but it hasn't caused me to not ride or sue anyone. Although eveytime it we get a change in weather there is a little ache there that reminds me that the fall was real.
TW

[FSSS]

Goes to show how important it is to discuss risk management and set up plans.

VERY NICE WORK!!!

Maybe this will help solidify a precedent that users ride at their own risk.



p.s. I would love to see this guy go public with it though... :fool:

[bigwheel]

So in other words, "Tough hop, pal":p

Tim, thanks for keeping us up-to-date. Now I can go back to crashing for fun, rather than as a business.

[At the Gates 2121]

In response to the blood on the rock and my broken rib---that IS a badge of pride and every time I ride past that rock I think of the fall. Makes me a bit tentative in the rock garden but it hasn't caused me to not ride or sue anyone. Although eveytime it we get a change in weather there is a little ache there that reminds me that the fall was real.
TW[/QUOTE]

What can I say this trail eats people Its one of the many stories I know about or have witnessed

[Kingbozo]

What can I say this trail eats people Its one of the many stories I know about or have witnessed

Well let's hope this guy's lawyer doesn't check out this thread.

[At the Gates 2121]

I wonder how many injuries happen at landahl in KC, MO and if there is a similiar thread down there

[At the Gates 2121]

Well let's hope this guy's lawyer doesn't check out this thread.

it doesn't matter the guy knew the risks of riding and shouldn't be out there in the first place if he can't fall down and not get hurt, and not complain about it.

The guy is just a fruit cake and soft. If it were me I would have told him to tell someone who cared and not to be soft.


On a different matter I play softball in a b league and have been injured in tourneys where feild were not groomed right You assume the risk just by stepping on the field.

last monday my pitcher got beaned in the head with a line drive Should he sue the guy that hit it or easton for creating the bat that gives you less than .5 seconds to respond plate to mound. 27 stitches later he still assumed the risk of pitching one down the middle.

[goatgirl]

we should chip in and buy this for him so he'll feel better about his choice of sport.:cool:

[jitterjepp]

That's what's wrong with America today, we've all became a bunch of wussies. Everyone is so concerned about hurting other peoples sensitivites and being politically correct.
Not me. I just forgot to add that the tip of my boot wasn't marked "dangerous" either.

he he he...

[stoneage]

left blood on a rock
AH HAH, it was you who left blood on the trail and caused me mental anguish and paranoia about contacting blood borne pathogens. You've diminished my enjoyment of the sport and damaged my mental health. I'm getting my lawyer!!!!
;) ;)

[Spike]

I'm riding with a permanently injured shoulder and hence, some rather strict limitations as to what I can and cannot do. I rode Leb last week and if I even remotely had doubts as to whether or not my shoulder could handle a section, I did not hesitate to get off and walk. That's just what I have to do and maybe that's what this guy should have done. Granted, riding like this doesn't leave a whole lot of room for improving your skills but anytime you ride outside the limits of your ability, there are risks involved. Since those risks have the potential of putting me off the bike for good, *I* choose not to take them, at least for now. Yes, it's the RIDER who assumes those risks, not MORC and not Dakota Co. The trails at Leb are not only clearly marked with regards to degree of difficulty but there are caution signs all over the place that give riders a heads-up about the upcoming section. You just can't ask for more than that.

Are the IMBA rules posted at the trailhead at Leb? If so, maybe Morc and Dakota Co can sue this guy for breaking the "Control your bicycle" rule. If he left marks on the tree, the "Leave no trace" rule might also apply. ;) Unless someone put a gun to this guys head and forced him to ride, he needs to accept that this was rider error on his part and move on.

[Trevize1138]

If being uber-cool were against the law, you would ALL be under arrest.




... sorry ... sorry ... :sick:

[The Buckthorn Killer]

I'm sure that there are thousands of storys like this one, but this is the one that keeps me responsable.

Seven years ago, my uncle had just got into Mtn biking. He ahd been to a few trails, and was getting the hang of it. We decided to try the river bottoms. Neather one of us had rode the trail before.

We parked at the Indian Mounds School. When he showed up, he didn't have a helmet. I had an extra helmet, he was relucktant, but put it on anyway. So we started down the trail. At the time there was only a Carsinight sign. No trail map, no warnings.

I was leading the group, I had no idea were i was going. My uncle was behind me trying to keep up. The lime stone Dbl track was rollie and fun. I rounded a gental right hand turn, when I heard a AHHHHH. My Uncle had lost trackion, and flew off the trail, into a lime stone dranage feild. He toumbled and roled over the large rocks. I saw that, it was scarry. Laying in the bottom of the drain feild, he began to croppie flop from the pain. Pale and sweating, he was having a hard time breathing. I helped him out of the water to the trail, his arm was badly deformed. He had split the helmet, that I had only ten minutes earlyer told him to put on. He walked most of the way out, the ambeluance meet him half way.

At the hospital, we found out that he broke both othe bones in his arm, 2 ribs, punchered 1 lung, broke the shoulder blade in 2 places, and the helmet... well it saved his life. He was in the hospital for 4 weeks, and had 3 surgerys to put him together. he now has 2 plates in his arm and 12 screws. (I made the screws, they look cool on Xrays) He didn't think of sueing anyone. He still rides today, but I fallow him.

The point,
1 Wear your helmet.
2 Assume the responsbily for your actions.
3 Don't fallow me.

[nd89sc88]

Guys please don't worry about this guy or his "claim". As a personal injury lawyer, I can tell you, he hasn't got a snowball's chance in hell in this case. As Tim correctly noted, the county is well protected by a number of immunities. Although they cannot prevent some idiot from suing the county, it gives the county the ability to have the suit dismissed at its very earliest stages. I would also note that a broken collarbone is worth sh!t

There will always be a couple idiots who believe that they can get rich quick with this type of claim, but those of us who do this work know that bad cases like this are losers for both client and lawyer. Remember, the lawyer doesn't get paid if he doesn't collect. If we took cases like this we would go broke, and most of us know better!

Thanks, Bill

[gopherhockey]

I was out of the country when most of this was taking place, but believe me I am taking this rather seriously. The fact that someone (anyone) can fall and break a nail then get lawyers involved scares me - whether or not anything were to come of it, being responsible in a MORC/Lebanon Dirt Boss way makes me feel I might be needing to hire a lawyer... eventually.

I don't want to blame this individual for my new perspective, but it has raised the issue on just how much I can afford to be involved in this day and age of people being able to get legal action for just about anything. Frankly we could have caution signs every 2" of the trail and I'd bet someone could still find a way to take legal action.

So... I am now seriously weighing my options as Lebanon Dirt Boss, as MORC Board member, and even with involvement on trail crews. I cannot afford to even take the time to worry about someone else falling on a rock and coming after me in any way regardless of their chances.

This is an unfortunate thing for me because I love MORC and I love Lebanon and I have loved being involved and taking a leadership position on the trail along with Tim and Dale. I would be very sad to have to step down from all of this but I currently do not see any other options...

At this point nothing is official for me but this has scared me and dissapointed me greatly. My removing myself from my responsibilities isn't going to have a big impact, but if this type of thing were to continue and more were to get scared out of their roles MORC could really find itself losing momentum... and maybe if land managers see their volunteers opting out we're going to start to lose trails.

[stoneage]

Is there any actual paperwork or motion in this instance, or are we just debating the issue? Has this guy come forward and filed something? Does anyone know him/her?

[Spike]

Does anyone know him/her?
Better yet, does anyone know where he/she lives? ;)

Before I get slapped with a lawsuit, note that that's not in any way meant as a threat. Just wondering if he/she is local. Yeah, that's it. Just want to know if we're dealing with a local rider here, that's all.

[Danimal]

John, are you f***ing serious! Don't let them win! Man we appreciate everything you guys do and I know there are tons of people that would support and stand by you if anything was to happen to our group of friends.

I just banged myself up something fierce out there at Leb last night, and it was fun! That's what brings the draw. I got a bruised trachia and can hardly talk and it wasn't anybody's fault but my own for going too fast. That's part of the thrill, pushing your limits. No one would be able to experience the fun mountain biking is today and at Lebanon if it wasn't for people like you who take the time & effort to make these trails challenging.

Let the overzealous idiots who can't make money on their own steam try to sue over something as stupid as crashing on a course. Man, you have way too many friends in this organization and others for that matter that would come to your defense, and as I see it some are even lawyers.

If we quit, they win! Sorry for jumping down your throat but you're appreciated and so is everyone else who has ever lifted a shovel or given a donation.

[gopherhockey]

If we quit, they win! Sorry for jumping down your throat but you're appreciated and so is everyone else who has ever lifted a shovel or given a donation.

I know what you are saying and believe me I've debated this in my mind over and over and over. I just know at the end of the day I can't afford to be paying lawyer fees regardless of their chances. What I need to do is find a way to stay involved but take myself out of the firing line... I'm going to have some discussions with other MORC board members on this before anything is done.

I know that the individual is definitely local (very local to Lebanon even), but thats all I can and will say.

I hope if a person has the ballZ to do this type of thing that they know better than to ever step foot or tire again on the trail. My guess is the individual has already been back out there with the rest of us....

[manual63]

What worries me is how just a threat of a law suit can scare people, such as John, into giving up doing what they love to do.

Nope, not me.....never, ever will I let some fool or the system bring me down!! Go ahead and try, but it won't happen........never.

If I ever have to stand up for what I believe in, I will tooth and nail until the end!!

[bigwheel]

I can easily understand John's concern. The older and more established we get, the more we have to lose, and the bigger the target we become. Just the threat of a lawsuit is really scary. Even if you knew you will win, the time and expense of fighting a lawsuit makes you think twice about the exposure of some fruitcase that is trying to sue people for a living.

It would be help if Eagan or Dakota county would state, for the record, that trail bosses and trail crew are protected from this kind of threat.

[Spike]

I can easily understand John's concern. The older and more established we get, the more we have to lose, and the bigger the target we become. Just the threat of a lawsuit is really scary. Even if you knew you will win, the time and expense of fighting a lawsuit makes you think twice about the exposure of some fruitcase that is trying to sue people for a living.

Exactly. Even if you never get sued, just having the threat of a potential lawsuit hanging over your head would definitely take its toll. I can understand where John is coming from and it's a real shame that he might step down but I can't say that I blame him.

It would be help if Eagan or Dakota county would state, for the record, that trail bosses and trail crew are protected from this kind of threat.

I was just about to post something similar.

John, if the guy has been back on the trail, as you suspect, and if anybody witnesses that and/or can get a picture or video, that would probably blow any chance of him having a case. Just a thought.

[Danimal]

Just give me his name, or the make, model & color of his ride, and if I see the SOB on a trail, I'll give him something to sue over and then he can sue me cause I'll be the one doing the damage not the trail.

Shad, you can join in if your toodlin by.

[Danimal]

Sorry for making idle threats but it's just WRONG!

[Burke]

These topics were discussed in depth at the MORC board meeting on the 14th. To dismiss the topic outright would be irresponsible. It's a wake-up call to get our risk management affairs in order, not to step back from what we love and have devoted ourselves to for these past years.

To greatly summarize the discussion, based on a number of factors, the level of protection from litigation afforded MORC board members and volunteers is very high. One main factor is that the entity behind the trail projects is the corporation MORC, not its directors, nor the people working on MORC's behalf. Also, MORC is acting as an agent for the land managers, who are ultimately responsible for their property and its condition. To that end, the state laws protect land managers from lawsuits derived from people recreating on their land on natural surface trails. The other safety net is that we have a general liability insurance policy that covers board members and officers for defense in lawsuits and settlements up to $1,000,000. This means, the insurance company hires legal defense for us, pays for it, and if they lose pay the settlement up to $1,000,000.

[Ish]

Does MORC have liability insurance for is Board of Directors?

[Little D]

That's all I have to say about this. It's just frickin sad.

John don't give up. Maybe William/nd89sc88 (if he really is a lawyer) can message you and help ease your fears.

Good luck
D

[socrates]

I was out of the country when most of this was taking place, but believe me I am taking this rather seriously. The fact that someone (anyone) can fall and break a nail then get lawyers involved scares me - whether or not anything were to come of it, being responsible in a MORC/Lebanon Dirt Boss way makes me feel I might be needing to hire a lawyer... eventually.

I don't want to blame this individual for my new perspective, but it has raised the issue on just how much I can afford to be involved in this day and age of people being able to get legal action for just about anything. Frankly we could have caution signs every 2" of the trail and I'd bet someone could still find a way to take legal action.

So... I am now seriously weighing my options as Lebanon Dirt Boss, as MORC Board member, and even with involvement on trail crews. I cannot afford to even take the time to worry about someone else falling on a rock and coming after me in any way regardless of their chances.

This is an unfortunate thing for me because I love MORC and I love Lebanon and I have loved being involved and taking a leadership position on the trail along with Tim and Dale. I would be very sad to have to step down from all of this but I currently do not see any other options...

At this point nothing is official for me but this has scared me and dissapointed me greatly. My removing myself from my responsibilities isn't going to have a big impact, but if this type of thing were to continue and more were to get scared out of their roles MORC could really find itself losing momentum... and maybe if land managers see their volunteers opting out we're going to start to lose trails.

John,

I think you're over reacting but it also never hurts to have personal liability coverage (aka umbrella policy)

[socrates]

I know what you are saying and believe me I've debated this in my mind over and over and over. I just know at the end of the day I can't afford to be paying lawyer fees regardless of their chances. What I need to do is find a way to stay involved but take myself out of the firing line... I'm going to have some discussions with other MORC board members on this before anything is done.

I know that the individual is definitely local (very local to Lebanon even), but thats all I can and will say.

I hope if a person has the ballZ to do this type of thing that they know better than to ever step foot or tire again on the trail. My guess is the individual has already been back out there with the rest of us....

John,

I'm not a lawyer but I believe couldn't go after you personally under most situations and MORC would have to represent you as an "official" of the coporation because you were acting on their behalf (if fraud is involved then I believe they can go after you....I never got the impression that this was an issue with you....but that van was kinda expensive :D )

[socrates]

What worries me is how just a threat of a law suit can scare people, such as John, into giving up doing what they love to do.

Nope, not me.....never, ever will I let some fool or the system bring me down!! Go ahead and try, but it won't happen........never.

If I ever have to stand up for what I believe in, I will tooth and nail until the end!!

Pls see post in "non biking discussion thread" on Tort Reform :D

[socrates]

The other safety net is that we have a general liability insurance policy that covers board members for defense in lawsuits and settlements up to $1,000,000.

Scott,

Not to 2nd guess the board, but typically the cost to go from 1M to 2M isn't very much.....and 1M really doesn't go too far these days....something to think about

[Burke]

We inquired with our insurance provider about upping the coverage, but they do not offer an increase in coverage.

[Trevize1138]

John,

Seriously, I don't think you have a thing to worry about. Yes, MORC should and is taking this incident seriously, but it is MORC as a whole that would be sued (unsuccessfully).

James Ford was saying at the MOCA meeting that one huge ace in our hole is we are a non-profit, volunteer organization. If we were charging people per ride at Lebanon and turning a profit then buying H2s all the while not caring that people were getting seriously injured on trails that we neglegently built to make money and not to be safe ... then I think this guy would have a case.

I guess I don't flinch at this because ever since my sophomore year of high school I've been doing things that, if done wrong, could get me sued: journalism. :) Write the wrong thing about the wrong person and they could rightfully sue you for libel and slander. My HS journalism advisor made us all quite aware of that.

At the same rate, just about *anything* you do runs the risk of hurting someone else either through no or some fault of your own. The only way to eliminate the possibility of getting sued is to lock yourself away in a fallout shelter with supplies to last the rest of your life. But, that wouldn't be any fun now, would it? :)

Stick with it, John! You're the best trail boss I know and I mean that!

[Danimal]

John... Your Our Big Toe! The cream in our coffee! The sugar in our tea! We need you!

[yetirider]

John,

I think you're over reacting but it also never hurts to have personal liability coverage (aka umbrella policy)

Umbrella policy... GREAT thing!!! Cheap too depending on your desired coverage!!! (being an ex-californian... all but a necessity out there!!! ;) )

John, If this stuff is bothering you, I would certainly look into it... also, some companies offer "legal insurance" for around $12 / mo. I have had this in the past and used it quite a bit in real estate and employment issues!

[socrates]

John... Your Our Big Toe! The cream in our coffee! The sugar in our tea! We need you!

Actually we just need Liz and her bake goods on Trail work night....John, do you think she'll mail me some? Unfortunately IND doesn't have SAAB service so she won't be able to leave them at the airport when she's passing through (cause she won't be passing through)

[socrates]

Umbrella policy... GREAT thing!!! Cheap too depending on your desired coverage!!! (being an ex-californian... all but a necessity out there!!! ;) )

John, If this stuff is bothering you, I would certainly look into it... also, some companies offer "legal insurance" for around $12 / mo. I have had this in the past and used it quite a bit in real estate and employment issues!

I haven't paid much attention to it but there was a blowup on "Prepaid legal services" not too long ago...I think it was people misunderstanding what it actually was (sounds like you used it as it is intended)

I think I'm paying around $200 for 2M in coverage through Liberty Mutual, I had a great agent in SLP if you want her name John.

[gopherhockey]

I think I'm paying around $200 for 2M in coverage through Liberty Mutual, I had a great agent in SLP if you want her name John.

Yes please - thx!

[nigel]

*is sad now*

[bakkeb]

I've been watchin' this whole thing unfold here on the forums and I have to say, I can't believe it! I haven't been able to ride for 3 weeks and it doesn't look like I will til Sept. I have a herniated disc in my back that I had surgery on last spring only to have it push on my sciatic nerve again this year. Surgery is on July 1st. :cryin: I'm a union floor installer and I've decided that riding my bike and skiing is more important so I'm quitting after everything is settled just so I can ride. Please don't tell me that my favorite trail is going to be closed because of some idiot. Tell me this is all just hype and a bad dream. When I'm healed I want to be able to ride maybe the best trail in the state. John don't quit, MORC wouldn't be where it is today with out ya.:etard:

[Burke]

Lebanon is in NO EMMINENT RISK of being closed. Dakota County has investigated their position relating to risk management, and they seem comfortable with it. They have commended MORC for our role in being trail stewards ensuring that the trail is laid out well and in good shape. As far as I can tell, things are same-old, same-old in their mind. I can't imagine this is their first instance when someone gets hurt on their land and threatens to sue.

[bakkeb]

Cool. When John starts talkin' about quitting over stuff like this, I start getting worried.:etard:

[soupboy]

I know more commercial insurance brokers than I have relatives. If I can be of any help let me know.

[socrates]

Yes please - thx!

Pm'd it to you

[Trevize1138]

Lebanon is in NO EMMINENT RISK of being closed. Dakota County has investigated their position relating to risk management, and they seem comfortable with it. They have commended MORC for our role in being trail stewards ensuring that the trail is laid out well and in good shape. As far as I can tell, things are same-old, same-old in their mind. I can't imagine this is their first instance when someone gets hurt on their land and threatens to sue.

Is NOBODY reading posts like this above? I fear many of us are letting paranoia defeat us before we've even begun.

Reality: some yahoo is going to try, and FAIL, at suing anybody for something that was his own fault and MORC will take a closer look at its own legal protection in the future. End of story.

Paranoia: Lebanon hills will be closed because of one lawsuit where the guy gets away with millions of dollars.

I certainly understand the need to take something like this seriously, but with everyone buying into a nightmare scenario we're doing more harm than good. This is how stupid urban legends start. Pretty soon we'll be on Snopes.com "Was Lebanon Hills closed to mountain biking forever due to a frivolous lawsuit? FALSE"

[manual63]

Shad, you can join in if your toodlin by.

I would never physically threaten or harm anyone, unless my life is in danger. So, I would not join in and do not think violence would solve the problem, probably would make it worse.

[Danimal]

Venting my friend... just venting.

[manual63]

We are blowing this WAY OUT of proportion. I really don't know why so many people get all panicked as soon as someone cries out lawsuit. It's no wonder out corporate run government can get people behind tort reform, which will work against the people and for the corps.

Even if this guys does sue, there is no way he can win. This isn't a McD's lawsuit, which was legit (contrary to what most of you believe), it's a silly suit that I would be surprised could go anywhere. I would even be surprised if a lawyer would take the case. I guess, if the guy pays tons of money out of his own pocket, he could get a lawyer, but no lawyer in their right mind would attempt to sue for something like this......or at least is very unlikely.

I was there, it was raining earlier in the day, the trail was muddy and the rocks were wet and slick. Nothing we could have done to save this guy from crashing, and we beat it to death not to ride in wet conditions. I am not worried and until something serious comes of this, I wish John and all the rest of you would relax a bit. No need getting this worried and making decisions about whether to be Leb boss or not.

John, if you are worn out and tired of running Leb, just say so. It's perfectly acceptable to step down, but please don't do it because of this incident, it looks really bad for MORC and trails in general if you choose to use this as your reason to leave Leb.

[iceskier]

This isn't a McD's lawsuit, which was legit (contrary to what most of you believe.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[Magic]

I think John has his own valid reasons for his thought's. So let's not persecute him for his thought's. I can see where John is coming from on this. And I'm almost sure John has run the gamete of the what if's in his head. We all don't want to see John change his role with MORC, he is a vital member to this group. Whatever John decides to do, I'm behind his decision. Good luck John and I'll see you out on the trails.

[ibismojo2001]

As an attorney, I would very very surprised if any other attorney would take a case like this. Especially with the assumption of risk involved. No worries. Plus I am in agreement with Mr. Thayer that the County has it under control. Keep up the great work out there John!!!!!

Hairy Gary

[noise_is_life]

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I'll back Shad up on this one, it turns out there has been a ton of misinformation in the media about that case (big suprise). I've used this as an example of what is wrong with the legal system myself (purely on what I had heard through the media), so one day I actually decided to look it up...

http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cur78.htm

Sorry, off topic I know, but just wanted to share.

[Trevize1138]

I think John has his own valid reasons for his thought's. So let's not persecute him for his thought's. I can see where John is coming from on this. And I'm almost sure John has run the gamete of the what if's in his head. We all don't want to see John change his role with MORC, he is a vital member to this group. Whatever John decides to do, I'm behind his decision. Good luck John and I'll see you out on the trails.

I can understand to an extent John's concerns. It sounds to me like he's just encountering something he hasn't had to deal with before, and that can be kind of scary no matter who you are.

I'm speaking mostly to the group here. It's not one person but a whole bunch of us who are so very easily giving in to paranoia. Please, everyone, I beg you, use your heads and don't make a mountain out of a molehill.

[Buck]

Hmmm, nothing will happen with this...the city is protected through to many land use acts, laws, regulations. And hell a collarbone cost next to nothing to fix compared to say a torn out knee, broken back, and even then all cities have huge umbrella policies. All is well on the home front...if anyone should be worrying it should be people like me, I work with no affiliation to anyone.


L8R
Buck

[iceskier]

Gary, Are you related to Lacy?:p

[ibismojo2001]

Don't know. Maybe. My kind is all over southern MN.:eyeroll:

[Danimal]

I'm sick of this thread already.

[bigwheel]

Re: Coffee
Huh?

http://caoc.com/facts.htm

To summarize: A woman in a car stopped to pour some cream in her coffee, spilled it on her lap, and sued. However, this was legitimate because the coffee was *REALLY* hot, and McDonalds knew it, but didn't evaluate the safety aspects, even though they were quietly paying off other claims. Because they use cheap coffee, McDonalds needs to brew it at dangerously hot levels in order to get a decent taste.

For the paranoid, it is kind of like saying: A lot of people had already fallen off of the teeter and gotten hurt, but even though MORC knew about it, they didn't do anything about it, because the teeter is really fun.

[noise_is_life]

I BREW my coffee with boiling water, but once it is brewed there is no reason to maintain that tempurature since it has to cooled before you can drink it anyway.

McDonald's coffee does suck, I'll give them that. :)

Re: Coffee


http://caoc.com/facts.htm

To summarize: A woman in a car stopped to pour some cream in her coffee, spilled it on her lap, and sued. However, this was legitimate because the coffee was *REALLY* hot, and McDonalds knew it, but didn't evaluate the safety aspects, even though they were quietly paying off other claims. Because they use cheap coffee, McDonalds needs to brew it at dangerously hot levels in order to get a decent taste.

For the paranoid, it is kind of like saying: A lot of people had already fallen off of the teeter and gotten hurt, but even though MORC knew about it, they didn't do anything about it, because the teeter is really fun.

[thebionicman]

all cities have huge umbrella policies.

Actually most self insure. The government has it setup so the most amount of money that a municipality can be held liable for is $300,000. And the only way you could touch that is if something was put out there to cause harm. Good luck trying to prove that.

[Buck]

Actually most self insure. The government has it setup so the most amount of money that a municipality can be held liable for is $300,000. And the only way you could touch that is if something was put out there to cause harm. Good luck trying to prove that.

lol!!! hahahah thanks for the clarification, I know that around here alot of cities get sk8 parks with 1000000 dollar umbrella plan so I just went with it! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: I could careless, if some dude tries to stop me from getting trails built I'll just go underground with it again and build illegal like I did before and to hell with everyone else!
L8R
buck
PS: my hope it the same as all of yours but let's be honest nothing will come of a broken collarbone claim...:eyeroll:

[manual63]

I could careless, if some dude tries to stop me from getting trails built I'll just go underground with it again and build illegal like I did before and to hell with everyone else!


Exactly. I feel the same way. I am willing to support and try the legal route, but if it comes to it, I would go underground too. In fact, many of us still do to a degree. The one thing I do like about MORC and the IMBA is that I have noticed even the underground has taken on better building practices in many cases, which is at least better than destroying a bunch of land. This is way off topic here, but a good point none the less.

[bigwheel]

I BREW my coffee with boiling water, but once it is brewed there is no reason to maintain that tempurature since it has to cooled before you can drink it anyway.
You are right. However, I don't think McDonalds wants to leave their coffee sitting around (or in the fridge) until it cools off.

McDonald's coffee does suck, I'll give them that. :)
Agreed

As they said in the article, we will never fully know what happened. I do wonder what really went on with the earlier "quiet" settlements.

One of the things I fear with a large blanket insurance policy is that it is sometimes cost-effective for an insurance company to simply pay off a claim, rather than "lawyer-up" and fight for what is right. After a few of these bogus claims are paid, they could simply say you are too expensive, and raise your rates to a ridiculous level or drop you completely. Meanwhile, by setting out of court, you are sort-of "admitting guilt", even though it was really a decision at the convenience of the insurance company, and nothing to do with you being in the wrong.

Perhaps our lawyer friend can shed some light on this, but doesn't a large insurance policy or wealthy company/person attract more lawsuits? Nobody sues a poor 20-year-old because it would be like trying to squeeze blood out of a rock. It's easy to be bold and dangerous when you have nothing to lose. Meanwhile, as the coffee article says, the total coffee-spill settlement is equivalent to McDonalds' 2 1/2 day coffee revenue, implying that McDonalds is rich, and therefore they are more guilty.

[manual63]

Meanwhile, as the coffee article says, the total coffee-spill settlement is equivalent to McDonalds' 2 1/2 day coffee revenue, implying that McDonalds is rich, and therefore they are more guilty.

I totally agree with your point here. The size of what/who is being sued and how much money they have should never play into a law suit. On the other hand, you get companies that are so huge (wow going way off topic) that they don't care if they are sued, so raising the amount is usually done just so it makes some kind of impact. Like companies that do illegal dumping and are fined. Some are so huge they just dump anyway, so the fines do no good. I personally think companies the break such serious laws should be shut down, but that's a whole other issue.

In the end, to think McDonald's could have just settled with the woman for her medical bills and yet here we are, more than 10 years later....debating this one law suit.....:) I would think there can't be that many frivilous law suits if we keep having to debate this one....:)....and I am the guilty party for bringing it up in the Leb trail section.......that's why everyone here like me so much.....:eyeroll:

[socrates]

You are right. However, I don't think McDonalds wants to leave their coffee sitting around (or in the fridge) until it cools off.


Agreed

As they said in the article, we will never fully know what happened. I do wonder what really went on with the earlier "quiet" settlements.

One of the things I fear with a large blanket insurance policy is that it is sometimes cost-effective for an insurance company to simply pay off a claim, rather than "lawyer-up" and fight for what is right. After a few of these bogus claims are paid, they could simply say you are too expensive, and raise your rates to a ridiculous level or drop you completely. Meanwhile, by setting out of court, you are sort-of "admitting guilt", even though it was really a decision at the convenience of the insurance company, and nothing to do with you being in the wrong.

Perhaps our lawyer friend can shed some light on this, but doesn't a large insurance policy or wealthy company/person attract more lawsuits? Nobody sues a poor 20-year-old because it would be like trying to squeeze blood out of a rock. It's easy to be bold and dangerous when you have nothing to lose. Meanwhile, as the coffee article says, the total coffee-spill settlement is equivalent to McDonalds' 2 1/2 day coffee revenue, implying that McDonalds is rich, and therefore they are more guilty.

The insurance company will that the path of least cost, if it's cheaper to pay off the claim then they will do so, if it's cheaper to fight the claim then they will do so, but both are claims that will cost the company money, either way you're rates could go up because you have a claim filed against you....fault is not a consideration only claims and the costs associated with them

[ibismojo2001]

I was in insurance defense prior to my present employment and, to say it lightly, insurance companies would rather litigate than pay money out (my experience) on such an alleged claim as this one. They only payout when and if they HAVE to do so.

Hope that helps! See you on the trails this weekend.

[destrago]

Seems to me that the purpose of dynamically scaling the punishment is so it will be of equal impact on companies/entities of different sizes. Apples to oranges example: there is a constant FCC fine for using the forbidden words on TV. One week, the creators of South Park simlpy decided to eat the fine and didn't bleep the episode: it didn't matter at all because the fine was so small compared to their income. People will invariably choose the cheapest/easiest solution: if being punished for doing wrong in the process is easier/cheaper in the end then they'll still do it, regardless.

I was accused a few years ago of stealing samples from Blizzard Entertainment (Ironically enough it wasn't by Blizzard, who owns the copyright on the samples I used). I read up and found out that they were entitled to tripple the amount of money I make on their samples.... sounded good to me since I was about $10,000 in the hole in my music career. I'll pay them -$30000 any day. images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Sorry for continuing off topic, but I think the actual topic has exhausted itself.

-Tony



I totally agree with your point here. The size of what/who is being sued and how much money they have should never play into a law suit. On the other hand, you get companies that are so huge (wow going way off topic) that they don't care if they are sued, so raising the amount is usually done just so it makes some kind of impact. Like companies that do illegal dumping and are fined. Some are so huge they just dump anyway, so the fines do no good. I personally think companies the break such serious laws should be shut down, but that's a whole other issue.

In the end, to think McDonald's could have just settled with the woman for her medical bills and yet here we are, more than 10 years later....debating this one law suit.....:) I would think there can't be that many frivilous law suits if we keep having to debate this one....:)....and I am the guilty party for bringing it up in the Leb trail section.......that's why everyone here like me so much.....:eyeroll:

[TrailPatrol]

This isn't the first time that some of us have been running for cover at the mere threat of legal action by some Bozo with an axe to grind. Then, as now, there was fear, trepidation and "modified stationary panic." Then, as now, the sky was not falling. It comes with the territory.

The lawyers out there can correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding of volunteering for goverment agencies, based on 18 years as a park ranger and 34 years of volunteering for state and federal land managers is that you are considered an employee for the purposes of Workers Comp and tortious liability. Your're covered. End of story.

Think safe,
Hans

[syntaxjunkie]

The finding of bright sides is not my strong suit. But rather than debate the finer (or coarser) points of tort reform, or speculate naively on the predilections of insurance company litigators, I'll offer the following thought: This episode proves the value of an organization like MORC, both to riders and land managers, in a way that no amount of positive press ever could.

Since this issue came to light a few weeks back, I've encountered a lot of riders at various trails – all of them complete strangers to me. And nearly every one has mentioned this incident, usually with a mixture of disbelief and grave concern. And in all of those conversations, it's been my pleasure to impart my belief that MORC's role in designing and maintaining the trail at Lebanon Hills AND MORC's exceedingly good relationship with the land manager have made a huge difference in keeping things under control.

As much as we celebrate our successes, it's good to be reminded every so often that there will always be threats to trail access, and not always from the expected sources. Mountain bikers need to support organizations like MORC because such organizations provide knowledge, credibility and experience beyond that possessed by even the wisest individuals. Land managers need organizations like MORC to help them create sustainable trails that challenge the skills of riders without creating safety hazards.

Ours is never going to be a "safe" sport. The potential for injury is always there, and the vast majority of riders see this a matter of personal responsibility rather than legal liability. But without the involvement of groups like MORC, I submit that incidents such as this one would occur more often due to poor trail design and maintenance. And land managers would be much more likely to succumb to the knee-jerk impulse to close a trail rather than challenge a claim.

In other words, if you value your right to ride, an investment of $25 a year can yield some pretty healthy returns. In the case of Lebanon Hills, it already has.