Knee Problems and my SS ride ...

[homebrewbiker]

I went on a 2 hour mostly urban ond relatively flat, then did the Cedar/Wirth route, and noticed that by the end of the ride one of my knees was really bothering me. I have never experienced this problem previously with my gear bikes (both FS). My suspicion is that it has to do with climbing on the SS and putting more stress on my knee. After a day of rest it feels OK today, we'll see how it holds up on today's road ride.

Does anyone have suggestions for adjustments which may reduce the stress on knees, or climbing techniques that may reduce knee stress? I have been trying to keep my feet parallel with the ground, maybe this is increasing the stress.

My bike is a Mongoose IBOC, I think the frame size is 18" or so, and I am 6'1.

[bigwheel]

As soon as I write the check, here come all the negative aspects of single speeds.

[dejorn]

I find that if my saddle is slightly too high it makes my knees sore. Try lowering the saddle slightly so your legs don't go completely strait.

[funky-funky-chicken]

I wouldn't be too quick to blame it on your lack of gear choice. Although, sometimes having to mash a gear now and then can emphasize other fit issues that might normally be hidden.

Will, saw your other post about Egg Beaters pedals, so I figure that you have reduced the likelihood of problems with rotation in the cleat placement... You might just double check the cleat on the shoe for the leg that is bothering you to make sure that you aren't putting any undue pressure on the angle of the cleat. Sometimes the cleats tend to center, but you might be using some of your body to rotate the angle of your foot to something other than what it might normally center.

Look for some other adjustments:
Saddle Position: Some people who ride off road tend to lower their saddle which IMHO is not necessary. Having a saddle too low puts a lot of extra stress on your knees. (Try walking around in a crouched position without straightening out your legs sometime if you want proof!) Try riding with your saddle measured out to the same height as your road bike. You can still un-weight your saddle in rough conditions if needed. Also make sure that you have your saddle in a good fore-aft position. Get your knees over the pedals.
Crank Arm Length: You may have different length crank arms on your SS than other bikes... it takes an adjustment for the body to switch. This is one that I have learned doesn't work for me. I need the same length arms on all bikes, it just works better that way.
"Q-Factor": This is the tread distance between pedals. The natural tendency of most people is to want to have the feet close to a straight line. Due to a variety of different factors in both component and frame designs, the tread on most off-road bikes tends to be slightly higher. This changes the angle at which the leg wants to go, and the angle it has to make in order to make the foot line up with the pedal. It can be hard to adjust for Q-Factor. While making sure that you maintain good chainline, you might be able to adjust with different cranks or bottom bracket.
Gear Choice: A bit of an oxymoron with a SS. Try knocking it down a notch though and learn to spin like mad.

You might also consider covering up your knees and keep them nice and toasty warm. With the exception of yesterday afternoon, it's been knee warmer weather for me almost all spring. I tend to use knee warmers (as stupid as they look) for about anything under 60 degrees.

[Trevize1138]

Gear Choice: A bit of an oxymoron with a SS. Try knocking it down a notch though and learn to spin like mad.

Ding ding ding ding! :)

I always err on the side of too spinny, and pressure on your knees is just one of many good reasons to learn to love 130+ rpms.

Also, don't be afraid to stand up a whole lot more. I still have many many years of geared riding habits (never ever ever stand, just shift to a lower gear) that I'm weening myself of for the SS. Don't mash the pedals too hard from a seated position, stand up and use your arms to crank.

[funky-funky-chicken]

I find that if my saddle is slightly too high it makes my knees sore. Try lowering the saddle slightly so your legs don't go completely strait.

IMHO people can tend to ride with their saddles off-road too low. You do want to extend your leg to take full advantage of the muscles. But: You should never have to over-extend or "lock" your knee to reach the pedal nor extend your foot to reach the pedals ("ankling.") You should not have to rock your hips from side to side to reach the pedals either.

When testing for any of the above "too high" indicators, it is easiest to have someone work with you on fit. Someone who can watch your body and how you interact with your bike. It's not a sit on the seat, put one foot on the pedal, set the saddle and go. It can take several minutes of riding for you to settle into "normal" position where you normally sit on the seat, pedal how you normally pedal, etc.

If you want to play around, it's generally easier to make adjustments while on a longer ride on your bike, on the road. Bring tools and make small subtle adjustments. If you have a trainer at home, that can work well too. It works exceptionally well if you video tape yourself riding so that you can spot bad form.

[mara]

I broke down and got professionally fitted on my current bike. Chris, my very awesome fitter, put this little tiny shim under one of my cleats to keep my knee from rotating awkwardly. I never knew it was a problem until it was fixed. WOW is my ride more comfortable. If you've tried everything else people have suggested and maxed out picking your friends' brains, you might find it worthwhile.

[homebrewbiker]

I broke down and got professionally fitted on my current bike. Chris, my very awesome fitter, put this little tiny shim under one of my cleats to keep my knee from rotating awkwardly. I never knew it was a problem until it was fixed. WOW is my ride more comfortable. If you've tried everything else people have suggested and maxed out picking your friends' brains, you might find it worthwhile.
When I got my road bike I got a "custom fit" which was pretty much putting me on a trainer and taking a look at how I looked on the bike and had me pedal for awhile to take a look atmy pedal motin. He put little blue dots on my knees and tracked how straight they were. He picked up a little wobble in one knee. I'll try some of these suggestions then see what works.

It only seems to be an issue for long ride (2 + hours), and seems related to climbing. Maybe I will do as Chris suggests and get out of the saddle more to see if that helps.

I'll start by taking a look at my position over the pedals and seat height. If that doesn't help then I'll look into getting a fit somewhere.

[redBeard]

I broke down and got professionally fitted on my current bike. Chris, my very awesome fitter, put this little tiny shim under one of my cleats to keep my knee from rotating awkwardly. I never knew it was a problem until it was fixed. WOW is my ride more comfortable. If you've tried everything else people have suggested and maxed out picking your friends' brains, you might find it worthwhile.

I couldn't agree with you more. While I like to tinker with things, fitting cycles (and building wheels) is not one of them. There are tooooooo many variables. Some adjustment I may think solve the problem may help a small bit, but an experienced wrench can (er, should be able to) spot problems muuuuch faster. I would rather spend the (little amount of) money to have a bike properly fitted than struggling with the pain and re-adjustments I would make for days......

I don't think the problem is your SS. I acquired my first MTB (a SS) and put many miles on it this past winter after I, you guessed it, had it fitted.....

Go to Hwood Cycles in B'ton. He rides and sells and services road and MTB bikes. Best fitter I know of.....

[soupboy]

If you're standing how do your arms reach the pedals? Must be the use of short stems and long cranks.

This all very confusing.

Don't mash the pedals too hard from a seated position, stand up and use your arms to crank.

[manual63]

If you're standing how do your arms reach the pedals? Must be the use of short stems and long cranks.

This all very confusing.

Dude.....stop being so funny....my ribs will never heal!!!

I think standing when pedaling starts to get hard is the best thing. I rode my BMX bikes for years all over the city this way with my seat low and I never had knee problems, at least not from pedaling.

On a geared bike you get in the habbit of downshifting and staying seated while pedaling. On a single speed, you can only do this to a limit. Once pedaling starts to get hard, just stand up and use your arms to pedal......LOL....I mean your legs in a standing position. There is nothing wrong with standing and pedaling. Sure it's a little more tiring, but I like it and it's just that much more of a workout which gets you into that much better shape. I actually run my singlespeed seat a little lower than on my geared bike and I just stand and crank when needed. It feels very natural for me, but I am sure you might have to consciously work on when and when not to stand.

[soupboy]

...all your ex-BMXers like the sensation of your knees banging off your chins when pedaling seated.

I actually run my singlespeed seat a little lower than on my geared bike and I just stand and crank when needed. It feels very natural for me, but I am sure you might have to consciously work on when and when not to stand.

[Trevize1138]

I actually run my singlespeed seat a little lower than on my geared bike and I just stand and crank when needed. It feels very natural for me, but I am sure you might have to consciously work on when and when not to stand.

I *used* to run my SS seat lower than my geared, but that was back when I also rode platforms like Shad still does on his SS. That works because you need extra seat clearance for bunny hopping and other maneuvers when you're not clipped in.

When clipped in, I need the same distance from BB to saddle as on my 27 speed. Works great!

[soupboy]

...27 speed doesn't really have 27 speeds. You got ripped off dood.

When clipped in, I need the same distance from BB to saddle as on my 27 speed. Works great!

[manual63]

...all your ex-BMXers like the sensation of your knees banging off your chins when pedaling seated.

That's it......"You're Fired!!"

[bigwheel]

Also, don't be afraid to stand up a whole lot more.
Wonderful (not). It took me about 2 years to learn to sit and pedal on the hills. On the roadie, it was standard practice to stand up and grind out a hill. However, on the MTB, I kept spinning out the back wheel. The sitting technique finally allowed me to climb loose hills. Now you are saying I have to learn to stand up again?

[Magic]

See Bob, this is the reason why I don't go SS. To many wierd things to do. Plus my bad knees need gears. Oh Bob, what did you get yourself into now!!!!!!!!!!!!

[homebrewbiker]

I called One on One and they (I think I spoke to Geno) said that I should make sure that the seat heights on all of my bikes is the same. He mentioned that too low of a seat can cause knee problems. Also the whole bit about making sure my knees are centered over the pedals. He said to check those things then call back. He also thought "overuse" might be part of the issue (the fact that I did the off road ride after riding for 2 - 1/2 hours).

[Trevize1138]

Wonderful (not). It took me about 2 years to learn to sit and pedal on the hills. On the roadie, it was standard practice to stand up and grind out a hill. However, on the MTB, I kept spinning out the back wheel. The sitting technique finally allowed me to climb loose hills. Now you are saying I have to learn to stand up again?

Heh heh ... yeah :)

I know exactly how you're feeling. I worried about the same things before fully committing to the SS. Strangely enough, I've not had a problem with my rear tire spinning out on me on climbs, and I run a semi-slick tire on the rear! :crazy2:

You can try to rationalize it for better or worse but until you actually hop on the bike and start riding trails you won't really know.

[trogolodyte16]

My hat goes off to those crazy enough to consider, yet alone actually ride a SS - :D

[manual63]

My hat goes off to those crazy enough to consider, yet alone actually ride a SS - :D

I used to think this way. Now I ride my P.2, now an SS, with platforms and it gets more use than my gear bike, which I just spent a bunch of money on. My P.2 isn't even light, but I just love shredding on it. It's so simple, just pedal. I thought riding a single would suck and that only elitist MTBers ride them. But, now I am addicted and can't wait to get an XC singlespeed. Mara's On-One is looking mighty good......but so is the Geno Bianchi....the G.U.S.S. with disk brakes and front shock.

Until you ride one...you will never know.

[Trevize1138]

More and more I'm starting to see that you can theorize until you're blue in the face about bike stuff, but you really don't know until you try it.

This applies to SS riding, but it goes with just about everything bike. Whether it's full suspension vs. hardtail, SS vs geared, 26'' vs. 29'', rigid vs. suspension fork, long stem vs. short, flat bars vs. riser bars, Brooks saddle vs. Body Geometry, steel vs. aluminum, V-brake vs. disc ... all of that talk and theorizing goes right out the window when you actually get on the bike and ride it.

As it's been said so many times here, just get out and ride.

"Action removes the doubt theory cannot solve." - Sun Tzu The Art of War

[homebrewbiker]

More and more I'm starting to see that you can theorize until you're blue in the face about bike stuff, but you really don't know until you try it.

This applies to SS riding, but it goes with just about everything bike. Whether it's full suspension vs. hardtail, SS vs geared, 26'' vs. 29'', rigid vs. suspension fork, long stem vs. short, flat bars vs. riser bars, Brooks saddle vs. Body Geometry, steel vs. aluminum, V-brake vs. disc ... all of that talk and theorizing goes right out the window when you actually get on the bike and ride it.

As it's been said so many times here, just get out and ride.

"Action removes the doubt theory cannot solve." - Sun Tzu The Art of War

I tried to explain single speed riding and why to do it to a friend, who is more of casual rider. I realized that there is not a very good explanation, it is just a great feeling to be on the trail and the only thing you have to worry about is pedaling and steering!

[noise_is_life]

It's amazing how much the SS thing is growing, it went along in relative obscurity for a long time, but lately it's just exploding (around here anyway).

John L. is about the only person that I know of that tried SS and didn't like it.

[manual63]

John L. is about the only person that I know of that tried SS and didn't like it.

Yeah, but you talking about John....what do you expect??:):p

[funky-funky-chicken]

John L. is about the only person that I know of that tried SS and didn't like it.

At least his bike went to a good home :D

[Trevize1138]

Yeah, but you talking about John....what do you expect??:):p

His contract with Mt. Dew told him he had to ditch the SS and ride full sus and then make a trail built only for full sus bikes, so it wasn't totally his decision ... :crazy:

[noise_is_life]

His contract with Mt. Dew told him he had to ditch the SS and ride full sus and then make a trail built only for full sus bikes, so it wasn't totally his decision ... :crazy:

Wow, so it's true... :D

[stoneage]

Having a saddle too low puts a lot of extra stress on your knees.
TRUE.
The muscles that stabilize your knees are the quads. To make them stronger, a proper fit is necessary.
Stand with your back against a wall, bare feet about 7-8" apart. Pull a 1" thick book straight up with about 25 lbs of pressure between your legs, keeping the book square to the wall. Have someone (a friend) measure from the floor to the top of the book. Do it three times to make sure. Multiply by .882. That is the measurement from the center of your bottom bracket to the top of your saddle in a straight line through the seat tube. That is a road bike measurement. I use this system for the U team and the MNJrC team. For a MTB I usually subtract about a 1/4-3/8". This will seem long initially for most people who haven't had a proper fitting, but has proven to be tried and true. Ride easy for a week until your legs are comfortable with the new length. There is a lot more to fitting than this. If you see me on the trail, don't hesitate to ask for sizing assistance. I do this a lot.

[bigwheel]

TRUE.
The muscles that stabilize your knees are the quads. To make them stronger, a proper fit is necessary.
Stand with your back against a wall, bare feet about 7-8" apart. Pull a 1" thick book straight up with about 25 lbs of pressure between your legs, keeping the book square to the wall. Have someone (a friend) measure from the floor to the top of the book. Do it three times to make sure. Multiply by .882. That is the measurement from the center of your bottom bracket to the top of your saddle in a straight line through the seat tube. That is a road bike measurement. I use this system for the U team and the MNJrC team. For a MTB I usually subtract about a 1/4-3/8". This will seem long initially for most people who haven't had a proper fitting, but has proven to be tried and true. Ride easy for a week until your legs are comfortable with the new length. There is a lot more to fitting than this. If you see me on the trail, don't hesitate to ask for sizing assistance. I do this a lot.

Lemme see if I understand. Stand against the wall, and have a friend smack a 25lb book agains the jewels three times. This is what it will feel like if you don't have enough standover.

For giggles, I tried this measurement, and on my road bike, my is almost 1 1/2 inches too high, and my mtb is over an inch too high. No wonder my knees feel so good after I ride. Maybe this also explains my balance problems.

[stoneage]

friend smack a 25lb book agains the jewels
Are you sure you did this right?
Pull the book up firmly (about like lifting 25 lbs) while keeping it square to the wall. A large coffee table book works best. You do it three times to assure accuracy. Then multiply that number by .882. That is the distance from the center of the bottom bracket to the top of the saddle. If your actual dimension is 1 1/2 inches longer than that, I guarantee you will eventually have knee problems from hyper-extending. I can usually see the hips rocking if someone has their saddle too high. 9 out of 10 times people will have the saddle too low. You are the exception.
Another common mistake is riding with the toes pointed down. Keeping your heel down while pedaling is more efficient. It takes a little practice, but is well worth it. Proper technique isn't stressed enough in biking, because it is an easy sport to get into without much effort, unlike XC skiing which is all about technique, and not as much fun if you aren't adept.

[bigwheel]

Are you sure you did this right?
Pull the book up firmly (about like lifting 25 lbs) while keeping it square to the wall. A large coffee table book works best. You do it three times to assure accuracy. Then multiply that number by .882. That is the distance from the center of the bottom bracket to the top of the saddle. If your actual dimension is 1 1/2 inches longer than that, I guarantee you will eventually have knee problems from hyper-extending. I can usually see the hips rocking if someone has their saddle too high. 9 out of 10 times people will have the saddle too low. You are the exception.
Another common mistake is riding with the toes pointed down. Keeping your heel down while pedaling is more efficient. It takes a little practice, but is well worth it. Proper technique isn't stressed enough in biking, because it is an easy sport to get into without much effort, unlike XC skiing which is all about technique, and not as much fun if you aren't adept.

I tried it again this morning, this time not while in my work clothes. This time, I got my wife to tug harder on the book, and was able to squeak out another inch and a half, so this makes the numbers work out about right.

On my road bike, I am also still running toe clips, so the pedals are closer to my toes than on my mtb. I do finish my pedal stroke with a bit of toe wiggle.

Thanks for the formula.

[homebrewbiker]

I took a look at all of my bikes. I noticed that the seat height was "approximately" the same on the road bike as the SS. But this was guestimating from the top tube to the bottom of the seat, so that is not very accurate and I will have to more accurately measure that. But it did appear that the seat was a bit more forward than on my road or gear MTB.

[manual63]

I took a look at all of my bikes. I noticed that the seat height was "approximately" the same on the road bike as the SS. But this was guestimating from the top tube to the bottom of the seat, so that is not very accurate and I will have to more accurately measure that. But it did appear that the seat was a bit more forward than on my road or gear MTB.

You have to measure from center of crank spindle to top of seat to get an accurate measurement. You can also just measure by sitting on them and putting one pedal in the down position with you foot parallel to the ground. Just see how bent your knee is. Pretty simple to do and only takes a few seconds.

[homebrewbiker]

Measured seat height and it was pretty close but I bumped it up about 1/2", also adjusted seat fore and aft to be better centered over the pedal. Tried riding for a bit Monday, still hurts a lot. Am starting to think that the gear ratio (34:17) may be causing a problem. I am going to get fit for these bikes to see if it helps any, road bike feels OK though (the one bike I was fit for).

I rode the geared MTB in Cable, I noticed some discomfot in the little bit of road/double track riding I did. Single track felt OK. But I did discover this bike has the seat way too low, so I adjusted that and will hopefully be able to get in for a fit this week so I can do the Wirth opening comfortably.

[Trevize1138]

Measured seat height and it was pretty close but I bumped it up about 1/2", also adjusted seat fore and aft to be better centered over the pedal. Tried riding for a bit Monday, still hurts a lot. Am starting to think that the gear ratio (34:17) may be causing a problem. I am going to get fit for these bikes to see if it helps any, road bike feels OK though (the one bike I was fit for).

I rode the geared MTB in Cable, I noticed some discomfot in the little bit of road/double track riding I did. Single track felt OK. But I did discover this bike has the seat way too low, so I adjusted that and will hopefully be able to get in for a fit this week so I can do the Wirth opening comfortably.

34:17 will tax your knees, your back ... everything. I love my 34:20 ratio.

Sit and spin. That's my recommendation ;).

[bigwheel]

34:17 will tax your knees, your back ... everything. I love my 34:20 ratio.

Sit and spin. That's my recommendation ;).

My frame is in! Just ordered a 32:22 (on a 29er) for my first shot at it. 15mph@120rpm is my absolute fastest 5-second burst.

[Trevize1138]

My frame is in! Just ordered a 32:22 (on a 29er) for my first shot at it. 15mph@120rpm is my absolute fastest 5-second burst.

That sounds like a pretty good ratio! One thing to remember about MTB trails: how often do you find yourself pedalding steadily for longer than 5 seconds? ;)

With all the twists, turns, log rolls and rock gardens, I'm re-positioning my pedals by back-pedaling, coasting, keeping the outside pedal down so much that even if I do spin pretty high on the trail it's never for very long at all.

[mtnbykr]

15mph@120rpm is my absolute fastest 5-second burst.

you'll find out this isn't really the way to think about gear ratios. what you want is a gear you'll be comfortable riding on your typical terrain for as long as you normally ride. on the metro trails, from what i've rode, this [for me] is too low. it would make a good spirit mtn gear but would suck riding there and back. my boy, buttahman, rides this in the winter and goes back to 32/20 for summer. i ride a 32/20, but don't ride the 29 in the winter.

then again if you plan on racing , i can't help you.

kl

[homebrewbiker]

34:17 will tax your knees, your back ... everything. I love my 34:20 ratio.

Sit and spin. That's my recommendation ;).

Current plan is to stay off of the SS for awhile. Also noticed it did not appear that my knees are correctly lining up with the pedals on that bike. Am scheduled for a fit session on Thursday evening with the fit "guru" Chris of SLP Eriks, we'll see what that turns up.

It is quite depressing that the one thing that is causing pain right now is biking.:cryin:

[el gueche]

http://www.physsportsmed.com/issues/1998/03mar/wall_pa.htm i have OS and when my knees hurt i do some of these. the 1 that helps me the most is the straight leg raise. if i'm in pain, i will do them when i get home from a ride and the pain goes away. i also like tiger balm white, doesn't stain. good luck.

[thebionicman]

I finally got out and rode after giving things up for a while do to knee pain. My solution, a lot of ibuprofen before going out and wearing one of my arm warmers over my knee. It put a lot of compression on the knee. It was starting to get sore when we started lap 3 last night at Theo, so I bailed. Today suprisingly it feels pretty good.

I'll know more next week, I go in for an MRI on Friday.

[iceskier]

I thought that 34/20 was going to be way too much to me too handle, however once I got out there and rode, I found that I could power up everything, and was pulling away from people on geared bikes. It was great!! The full rigid is interesting too!!

[homebrewbiker]

Well I heard from my ski "coach" who had a similar problem last year after the iron man. He had an orthopedist tell him it was from tight hamstrings (from skiing and biking) and a doctor told him torn cartillege. So he stretched 3X per day for awhile, got hi bike re-fitted (I think at NOW Fitness). Apparently Grand Performance totally f'd his fit the first time. Said his knee doesn't bother him anymore ...

I'm going to try a road ride today and see if a week of rest has helped at all. Re-fit is scheduled for Thursday evening, thinking about bringing all of my bikes in, including the problematic SS.

[homebrewbiker]

In case anyone is wondering, problems have continued. Have an appointment to see a doctor on July 11 (he conveiently took the whole month of June off), until then I have been advised to keep to easy rides on my road bike for 3 months???). Hopefully the doc will have better news, or at least a way to shave down the 3 month window before returning to full strength riding). Until then about all I am left with is double polling on roller skiis and swimming at the gym. Looks like my summer riding season is going to be gone for this year.

[manual63]

I just saw the doc about my left knee, which I have had two ACL recons on and one orthoscopic.

Earlier in the year I was doing the BCR bootcamps and it involved running. Running is a lot of high impact on the knees and thus bruised my bones a little on my left knee. No harm done, but lots of pain. The bones got bruised because there is not enough padding for that knee. It hurt when I rode and even more when I rode SS. But, I stopped doing the running excersizes in late May and the doc said my knee should feel great by mid July. It already feels a lot better. Basically, if I don't want the pain, I shouldn't run. So, I am not going to run anymore. I like biking too much to hamper my biking just for some silly runs.

I am not sure if the ski stuff or whatever else you might do could upset your knees, but I am pretty sure it's not the SS. I was told I can not really do more damage or accelerate it. It's just pain and if I want I can take pain medication, which I won't do. But, the doc told me to continue ripping it up on the bike......no harm can be done.

[homebrewbiker]

If taking it easy for the short term means I can ride pain free down the road then I will do that. Anyway, the doctor appointment is only another couple of weeks away.

For your pain, you could try 3 tablespoons a day of flax seed oil, it is loaded with Omega 3 and 6, and is supposed to be a good anti-inflammatory (and won't compromise your stomach or liver as advil, ibuprofen and asprin can do). That's what mara's recommended fit guy (Chris B) suggested at least to help the healing process.

He believes as I do that the problem was not caused by riding the single speed per se, but the fact that it was set up to work well with my body. A couple long rides on that bike was apparently enough.

[mara]

Sorry to hear that, Will. :cryin: I hope you heal quickly and the new fit makes you lightning fast when you do get to ride again.

[bigwheel]

Bummer, Will.

I assume you've already tried taking a couple "Vitamin I" (ibuprofin) an hour before riding.

[homebrewbiker]

Well I was advised against taking vitamin "I". Flax Seed Oil is the "natural" remedy that is supposed to help the body repair the damage. If you look on line a lot of nutritional supplement shops sell it to weight lifters as a replacement for anti-inflammaory drugs. It apparently has a similar effect as condtroitin(sp)/glucostamine.