Gravity racing and riding banned at Big Bear Lake, CA

[Shickdawg]

From VeloNews:

Gravity racing (and riding) to be banned at Big Bear
By Jason Sumner
VeloNews associate editor
This report filed December 7, 2004
One of America's most renowned mountain-bike racing venues has pulled the plug on downhilling. Snow Summit Resort in Big Bear Lake, California will no longer allow downhill bikes on its chairlifts during the summer riding season, and this means no more downhill racing either.

http://images.velonews.com/images/mtn/7280.9756.t.jpg (javascript:void window.open('/view_full.php?image=/images/mtn/7280.9756.f.jpg', 'ViewFull', 'height=640,width=393,toolbar=no');)http://images.velonews.com/graphics/magnify.gifClick image to enlargeby Tom Moran (file photo)



According to Dick Kun, president of the resort, the change in policy stemmed primarily from the amount of liability exposure his resort was facing by allowing downhillers to ride on the mountain two hours drive from Los Angeles.

"Even with the insurance that NORBA and Team Big Bear carried it wasn't enough to protect us," explained Kun, referring to USA Cycling's national cycling body and the outfit that has run the Big Bear NCS races and many others during the last 15 years. "We just don't get enough in return to defray the exposure."

Kun added that, "there's one on-going claim stemming from an accident that happened a couple years ago that put things over the top." He would not elaborate on the case.

Two years ago, at the NORBA national series event, a female Japanese downhiller died from injuries sustained during a practice run.

Kun also pointed to the number of illegal trails being built on the mountain, which he said could be almost exclusively pinned on the downhill/freeride set.

"Guys were just riding everywhere in the woods," said Kun. "The Forest Service was really pissed off with what was going on and it probably wasn't long before they shut it down anyway."

A statement on the Team Big Bear Web site read, "Various methods have been used to inhibit the development and use of these trails including, signage, fencing and ticket revocation, but these attempts have proved futile."

As for the NORBA national series race that's scheduled for Big Bear May 14-15, 2005, the event will go on, just without the downhill or dual slalom.

"We'll have the cross-country and maybe the Super D," said Team Big Bear's Tom Spiegel. "But there will be no gravity events, no downhill, no dual slalom. It's all about the danger factor. It's unfortunate, but that's the way it goes."

As for enforcement of the new rule, Snow Summit's Kun said it would probably be a matter of bike weight restrictions, say no bikes over 35 pounds, though a final decision had not yet been made.

"Frankly we considered stopping [bike riding at the resort] all together," said Kun. "But we decided that we were willing to accept the exposure that came with allowing cross-country riding. We haven't had any serious accidents involving cross-country people and we don't think they're the ones building the illegal trails."


Is this a sign of things to come? Or just a few bad eggs ruining it for everybody else?

[berrywise]

How come ski resorts can't get insurance that would cover them all year round? I would imagine they have some pretty good insurance for all the skiiers they have all winter. I'm sure there have been more than a few deaths cause by skiing and countless injuries. Why couldn't that policy carry over into the summer? Just cost to much to carry that policy year round?

[Aaroneous]

"Kun also pointed to the number of illegal trails being built on the mountain, which he said could be almost exclusively pinned on the downhill/freeride set.

'Guys were just riding everywhere in the woods,' said Kun. "The Forest Service was really pissed off with what was going on and it probably wasn't long before they shut it down anyway.'"


I'm guessing this is the real crux of the problem... the same problem we're having here at Cedar/Brownie/Wirth...

[BrightYellow]

Why couldn't that policy carry over into the summer
It's probably the difference in the amount they can charge for lift tickets in the summer vs. the winter. That and all of the extra money that the skiers are willing to spend once they get there. Just makes it more profitable in the winter.

[bradpartyka]

Also, the risk for injury on illegal trails is higher in the insurers mind because how they were built is unknown.

Insurance rates are calculated on known factors. i.e., were the people will be skiing, what kind of obstacles, etc. That death of that downhiller definitely prompted the insurer to take a risk assessment on this resort. And when they saw all of the illegal trails... its as good as being classified as a class 5 wood structure with no sprinklers and a boiler... which are nearly uninsurable in the U.S.

[Buck]

Yeah, I've been following that story for some time...it comes from two problems...

1. The saddest of the two if you ask me...are DHers who are sueing these places when they get injured. I understand the risk...if I get hurt it is my fault not the resorts. I can understand from large bills and the like but, look at it this way, I used to Rock Climb a ton, that is way more dangerous then biking and National Parks allow rock climbing, people die and get injured doing that yet no one gets sued??? Skiers die in avalaches on a yearly basis who gets in trouble when that happens???

2. The illegal trails are a problem everywhere. That is why places like Steeple Chase need to happen. It comes down to this. I have a DH/FR bike, I want to ride, I've tried to get permission and can't get it, so what to do...build my own trails. I know it sucks, but what the USA is going through in regards to FR/DH mtn biking Canada has already been through. Yes there were a number of steps in the wrong direction, it is inevitable with a sport that is so easy to point fingers at b/c it is inherently dangerous and easy to make look "Xtreme". But look at most of Canada now...legal trails are being built all over...ski resorts are opening for the 1st time or re-opening after closing, leaps and bounds have been made with friendship among all trails users(pr atleast a middle ground). Yes something like this is bad, but in the long run I think it will be good...USA FR/DHers at this point aren't very organized, stuff like this will make people mobilize to save their trails. I hope in Minnesota we can getting it rolling in the right direction so we don't have to atleast worry about illegal trails...injuries will happen, it is part of the sport.

All in all the situation around the entire thing sucks! Stuff like this will get high publicity in the industry = no good...

L8R
Buck

[berrywise]

The saddest of the two if you ask me...are DHers who are sueing these places when they get injured. I understand the risk...if I get hurt it is my fault not the resorts.
Problem with that is a lot of times it is your insurance company that sues because they themselves don't want to pay all the bill.

[bradpartyka]

Problem with that is a lot of times it is your insurance company that sues because they themselves don't want to pay all the bill.
Well, actually it's subrogation between two insurance companies.

One paid the claim (premature death) and wants reimbursement from the liability insurer. Thus, causing the property/liability insurer to call for a risk assesment of the insured (resort).

[ryno lite]

Actually Canada can pull it off more easily because there are differences in the laws when it comes to bringing a lawsuit up. I don't know all the ins and outs because I'm not a lawyer, but it's much easier to sue a ski hill in the US than it is in Canada, thus it's way cheaper to insure up there, than it is here. I love the US, but all these damn lawsuits and high insurance rates are killing us and ruining all of our fun!

[Buck]

Actually Canada can pull it off more easily because there are differences in the laws when it comes to bringing a lawsuit up. I don't know all the ins and outs because I'm not a lawyer, but it's much easier to sue a ski hill in the US than it is in Canada, thus it's way cheaper to insure up there, than it is here. I love the US, but all these damn lawsuits and high insurance rates are killing us and ruining all of our fun!
Yes, that is true to a point, but their(municipalities) main concern was still liability, they still have to jump through the same loops just not as many, also the greater public also sees more of Mtn Biking creating its own problem, they close whole Mtns down not from illegal trails but from to many people parking at the base of a Mtn!!! Now isn't that crazy, that and Tree huggers(I call them hippies) are much more active up there, like booby trapping trails, cutting down stunts, reporting illegal trails...everyone in Canada is just more active, but anyway you cut they are way more organized with this stuff in general then the US. No matter what side you are on...It will happen in the US it'll just take time...Maybe we can be the example for everyone to follow! Some exciting things are happening in MN regarding FR/DH, I almost wish this post wasn't here for fear of land managers reading it that don't know the whole story...

L8R
Buck

[ryno lite]

Even though I'm not a DH/FR type, I hope it is successful here in MN! It would be a great addition to the whole mtn bike scene. I agree Adam, I hope bad press doesn't affect all the progress that has been made recently here in MN!

[Tim Wegner]

I think our efforts here are secure as long as all trail construction is done by an authorized organization. We have worked hard to build relationships with land managers that is paying incredible dividends right now.

I would like to encourage those bikers that are doing the work on their own get connected with MORC or MOCA and work together to build legal trails that will be around for many years to come. Do not build a trail that will upset the land manager and get all legal mountain bike trails closed. Follow the IMBA code of ethics for trail construction--if you don't know what that is e-mail me and I will be glad to discuss this with you. twegner50@yahoo.com

TW

[manual63]

I hate to get political on you, but this is all part of the current conservative movement we now live in. In the 60's and 70's many many skateparks and BMX tracks were made creating a boom in both skateboarding and BMX. Once 1980 came, it took about 4 years or so before all these places started to close down. Why? Because of liability concerns....so they say. It's actually because a movement and attitude towards sports such as skating and BMX started to develop. These sports were unlike baseball and football, they were sports mostly liberal minded people did and there was no major organization behind them (NFL, NBA, MLB, or NHL). Basically a conservative attitude took over and all these cool places started closing down. It happened really fast and I was shocked. Then skateboarding and BMX became a big rebal thing to do.

Then came the 90's where we bacame more liberal again. It took about 3 or 4 years and skateparks and BMX tracks started popping up all over again. Hmmm, I see a pattern. Now it seems skateboarding has become pretty strong, much stronger than BMX, but I don't know if it's strong enough to stop what happened in the 80's. BMX racing has seen a huge decline and tracks have been closing left and right. Both Schwinn and GT, huge supporters of BMX in the 90's are almost gone and there is no money for BMX, but plenty for the NFL.

So here we have this sport of Freeriding.........what's that?? It's too new and it's not powerful enough to overcome the movement our nation is currently in. Will the sport survive? Yes it will, but it might not get the support from the big money people anymore.

One of the major reasons for this is because of fear of money. The economy is going bad and a lot of companies are cutting costs to survive and where do you think they will cut them first? As money gets tight, places worry about huge lawsuits that might possibly put them under. The conservative movement is not so conservative. They spend like crazy and the value of the dollar goes down and it hurts everyone.

Don't reply to this with a bunch of political stuff. If you want to get political about this issue or you disagree with me, post about it in the non-biking area. I am just giving my reason why such a thing would happen to downhill racing. You can agree or disagree, but please don't turn this thread into a political one......thank you.......:)

[bigwheel]

I hate to get political on you, but
<snip>
Don't reply to this with a bunch of political stuff.
<snip>
.:)
Shad, after taking a swipe like that at conservatives, how can you possibly expect to not get a response.

From what I've read here, there are two reasons these biking areas are shut down:
1: Insurance/liability. The reason that this is now a problem is because of the outrageous lawsuits that have become popular in the last few decades. Spill a cup of coffee on your lap? Sue them! Break your back on a dangerous stunt that you made without permission? Sue them! It's just an evil corporation. Frivolous lawsuits hamper or destroy businesses. When this happens, everybody suffers. The winning candidate said he'd push for tort reform. The other vp candidate made his fortune as a trial lawyer winning medical lawsuits with junk science. Trial lawyers are one of the biggest contributers to one political party, and it ain't the repubs.
2: Bunny Huggers that don't want anyone in the woods unless they are wearing sandals and don't bend over any twigs. Groups like the Sierra Club started off with good intentions, but have since been taken over by the wackos who do not approve of mountain biking. These groups have a lot of cash, good lawyers and many lobbyists. They have the ability to shut down businesses, or cost them a fortune. I can assure you that few of them are "conservatives".

Sorry for getting political. Back to happy talk.

[Buck]

To all that are just jumping in...
Some quick\ research on the subject will show the your political ramblings have no basis on this matter...if you don't want politics in this post don't post stuff like that here...

The main reason they are closing IS NOT from liability alone...I have read many articles that qoute the big dogs at SS saying it was a long time coming anyway. The Forest Service was getting straight pissed of all the illegal trails, steps had been taken to prevent use, but none were successful. So the end solution was/is to close it down...adding the insurance part to it just made it that much easier... I agree with Tim, if you don't know how to build a trail properly attend a class, get help from someone that has...or don't build at all!

Ok, took another look at some other sites, to the best of my knowledge SS only has one lawsuit pending, with a DH racer that broke the c5 and 6 vertabre(sp?) All though what I have been able to find this is only one contributing factor to the overall closure of SS.

L8R
Buck

[Stupordave]

It's probably the difference in the amount they can charge for lift tickets in the summer vs. the winter. That and all of the extra money that the skiers are willing to spend once they get there. Just makes it more profitable in the winter.
Not it.... I raced sport DH for 2 seasons and some resorts on the east coast charge just as much for mtb lift tickets as they do in the prime ski season. I think the real issue as they see it as "not that big of a loss" when comparing the number who participate in DH racing vs skiing/boarding or even XC for that matter.

Look at Wintergreen resort in VA. In 2002/2003 they had a great network of DH/FR trails (privately built with resort permission) and ran the lifts for bikers all summer. It worked out well for everyone....When it came time to maintain and invest in the trails to fix them after a wet winter, they didn't lift a finger. Went once this year before I moved and the trails were eroded beyond belief. The first couple of runs were very sketchy. Long story short they just didn't make enough money to make it worth caring about. They aren't bikers, they're running a business.

As for illegal freeride trail building....it's just the next evolution of the sport looking for a place to call home. Most places in this country already contain numerous XC trails. Not many have established legal freeride parks. Think back 15 years and what trail you were riding on. Was it an established legal XC trail? Probably not. I am absolutely NOT condoning illegal trail building, but just suggesting we not snub our noses at an exciting part of our sport and instead offer a hand. Ok...I'll step off the soapbox now.:D

[BrightYellow]

Think back 15 years and what trail you were riding on. Was it an established legal XC trail? Probably not.
I agree... If I was riding 15 years ago, it wouldn't have been on a legal trail, but 15 years ago there was no IMBA, no MORC and a lot less riders. Now, creating illegal trails is a bigger issue - it's not just two guys riding a deer trail, at least not for what the complaints are about. What it sounds like is a bunch of guys riding a DH, on a trail that didn't exist, ripping up the land. I can see the land managers having a issue with that.

Another problem is that there are more than 2 guys interested in biking now and if the land managers decide to start taking the trails away, it affects more people - there are just a lot more bikers out there now.

Oh well, that's my $.02 anyway...

[Little D]

If it doesn't make money for the organizations running the show, it's no go.

Also; on the liability issue between Skiing/boarding and DH/FR, the majority of the time eating s&*t on snow is a lot different then eating s&*t while riding on dirt and rocks.

[Don Youngdahl]

I hate to get political on you, but this is all part of the current conservative movement we now live in. :)
I'm neither in the conservative camp or liberal camp consistantly, but I do follow politics. Check the platforms and voting records on tort reform, on both a national and state level. You will find that in general, conservatives are advocating tort reform to try to get a handle on the outragous lawsuit problem, and the liberals are resisting tort reform, primarily because the very powerful trial lawyer association lobbies generally support the Democrats.

Don Youngdahl

[nil821]

The FR movement is young still, and needs an organized body to represent itself or form an official partnership with another well established organization (IMBA?). As far as the Forset Service concerns, I fully agree with them. The majority of cyclists do not know the full effects of constructing illegal trails have on the environment. Soil erosion is just a small fraction of the environmental degradation that occurs. All hope is not lost thoug. Places like Whistler have expanded their FR area and I am sure other resorts will see what is going on, see the cash flow in, and hopefully laws will be developed to keep idiots from getting rich off of their own stupidity. Go Darwinism.