Trail related issues. [Archive] - Minnesota Off-Road Cyclists Discussion Forums

Kosk

11-19-2004, 04:06 PM

Ok, I get it now. I missed the part about moving over here...it's 4pm friday, you can't expect too much......

We have also tossed around the idea of swiching the direction once a month to create variety - but the jury is still out on that one.That sounds kinda cool. Theo seems like a place that could work at. The nature of the trail and lay of the land kind of lend it self to being good in both directions, maybe if it dries out I'll try riding it the other way to see how it flows.

Good to know it is "both ways" until posted, thanks.
Thanks, I just logged in to start a new thread - as we were hijacking the Trail Conditions thread - so you beat me to it (I will start another thread for Trail Related Issues shortly, and redirect from the Trail Conditions thread).

Please continue this discussion over here:

http://www.morcmtb.org/forums/showthread.php?p=102340

Anyway, the direction as designed is clockwise. There will be designated entrances in a few different places and all will be well marked.

The signs will go in just before the Grand Opening on June 4th. Until the signs are in place, it's been a policy of ride however you like - and keep an eye open for other users. We can't sign it until we're done. Maps will follow.

We have also tossed around the idea of swiching the direction once a month to create variety - but the jury is still out on that one.
Thought maybe I would start a new thread instead of cluttering up the Conditions thread..anyway...

What's the deal with riding directions at Theo? Now that the new trail is in, is there a direction it is supposed to be ridden? I realize that section 7 and the stuff that runs N-S on the southside of the tracks is kind of a cluster bleep. I am curious about the rest of the park.

Based on the trail work map I ride sections 1-> 2-> 4-> 6a-> 5. Most of the time, people are flowing this way, and the trail "makes sense" when riding this way. Twice this past summer I came flying around a corner only to have someone else flying around towards me. Luckily I have had no collisions so far. Both times it was not a "casual" biker, so it wasn't like they were lost, or standing still or just going slow, they were moving just as fast as me, but the other way.

So which direction is the correct direction?, or is the loop going to be considered "both" directions. I'd be nice to know if that was the case. I realize that one should ride safely enough to avoid collisions with other people on the trail, but coming up on someone going slower than you in the same direction, or even stopped, is alot different than coming up on someone that is coming the other way just as fast.

Anybody know the situation out there? Signage plans?

Wheels

11-19-2004, 04:13 PM

That sounds kinda cool. Theo seems like a place that could work at. The nature of the trail and lay of the land kind of lend it self to being good in both directions, maybe if it dries out I'll try riding it the other way to see how it flows.

Good to know it is "both ways" until posted, thanks.

It has worked out quite well in both directions, just a couple of spots where you may ending up skidding to get around a corner.

The main reason we don't have a decision on this yet is that we have some expert sections that will be going in over the next year - setting those entry/exit points will probably determine whether or not the changing of direction will work - and still maintain good traffic flow.

As always though, it's technically a multi-use trail - so always keep your head up for walkers, dogs, and such.

Wheels

11-19-2004, 04:26 PM

We talk alot about the "zones" in our threads, here's a small overview image of the zones:

http://www.mocatrails.org/morcforumlinks/zones.jpg

A larger format can be found here:

http://www.mocatrails.org/morcforumlinks/NewZoneMap.jpg

The numbering on the zones is the order in which they were planned to be built.

FSSS

11-19-2004, 05:35 PM

...will probably determine whether or not the changing of direction will work...

As always though, it's technically a multi-use trail - so always keep your head up for walkers, dogs, and such.If I were a trail-runner or dog-walker in Wirth, I'd appreciate knowing which direction MTBers will be coming from, and for that to be consistent. I would eventually figure out where I see MTBers carrying speed and take extra care in those sections. If the direction changes, so do the higher speed areas.

Also, if it is recommended that hikers/runners travel the trail in an opposite direction as MTBers, would that direction switch every month too?

Switching directions sounds kinda cool, but I think it would only lead to more conflicts with other users (and unknowing MTB riders). Seems like it would work better on a MTB-Only trail with a single, restricted entry point.

Maybe MOCA could hold a fund-raising event at Wirth every summer and then ride it backwards for that one day??

p.s. Shawn - Thanks for starting this thread! Should trim the fat from the trail conditions thread!

Wheels

11-19-2004, 05:43 PM

Switching directions sounds kinda cool, but I think it would only lead to more conflicts with other users (and unknowing MTB riders). Seems like it would work better on a MTB-Only trail with a single, restricted entry point.

Good points, I don't know how this is going to work out yet. I guess time will tell. I recall someone stating in the Trail Conditions thread that walkers/runners should travel in the opposite direction. I have to claim ignorance to the protocol in this situation - but to me it would make more sense for runners to be going the same direction.

TrailPatrol

11-19-2004, 05:54 PM

noise_is_life

11-19-2004, 07:52 PM

We talk alot about the "zones" in our threads, here's a small overview image of the zones:

A larger format can be found here:

http://www.mocatrails.org/morcforumlinks/NewZoneMap.jpg

The numbering on the zones is the order in which they were planned to be built. There's also a newer version on the main page of mocatrails.org that is a little easier to read and has more up to date trails (but not fully current).

http://www.mocatrails.org/files/Maps/Work%20Zones/New%20Zone%20Map.jpg

Wheels

11-20-2004, 03:54 PM

On the other thread Eric Flom raised the question as to wheather the gated access road/trail would be groomed for skiing or not, and that was actually the trail I was asking about in the other thread. (I couldn't get the quote to change threads) The past two years (We didn't have much snow a few years before that) they have groomed that road up to the Meadows area. Does anyone know if that will be groomed of left for bikes and snowshoers this winter?

Thanks
Hans

Well, if the city goes with this plan it looks like the skiers won't be on the gravel road this year - at least not where the bikes would officially have to enter.

Looks like all of it will be paved in a couple years anyway - this seems to be the final route for the Luce Line.

I have another map for this area with a slighly different layout for the ski trail (loop with show machines) but that one doesn't use the gravel road either.

http://www.mocatrails.org/morcforumlinks/approved.jpg

mckinney

11-20-2004, 08:31 PM

Hi all -

I've finally been able to put together a "complete" trail map for the Wirth Park trails that ought to be useful in clarifying many of the points that are being raised here:

http://www.mocatrails.org/files/Maps/Trail%20Map%20Plain.gif

The map is availble in two versions. The first version is the “plain” version above that does not have the orthophoto background and is available in a high-resolution PDF format for printing and a low-resolution .gif for a quick look on screen as:

http://www.mocatrails.org/files/Maps/Trail%20Map%20Plain.pdf
and
http://www.mocatrails.org/files/Maps/Trail%20Map%20Plain.gif (http://www.mocatrails.org/files/Maps/Trail%20Map%20Plain.gif)

The second version has the familiar orthophoto background and is available in a high-resolution PDF and a low resolution .jpg as:

http://www.mocatrails.org/files/Maps/Trail%20Map%20Orthophoto.pdf
and
http://www.mocatrails.org/files/Maps/Trail%20Map%20Orthophoto.jpg

The maps show completed trail and construction plans for the spring and the intended riding direction (once signs are up in the spring) is marked.

Hope that helps out a bit!

- Pete

P.S. How 'bout that - my first post on the MORC forums! I suppose it's about time that I chimed in a bit now and again. I'll try to take more time to monitor the discusions here and participate from now on. So "hello" to all from an oldster on the project and a newbie on the forum! :D

noise_is_life

11-20-2004, 08:41 PM

Great stuff Pete, thanks for all the hard work.

Yammer

11-20-2004, 10:01 PM

.. can we please at least scare squirrels? They sure scare the hell out of me sometimes! :shocked:

pk

FSSS

11-21-2004, 12:16 AM

Sweet maps!! I can't wait to see them without any dashed lines!

Is an updated version of that going to be available at the trailhead and/or local bike shops next summer?

mckinney

11-21-2004, 12:13 PM

There will be a map similar to the one I posted above on both signs at the trail entrances and on a pamplet. Putting together both items is one of our jobs for this winter. The pamphlet will be availble at bike shops and perhaps from a dispenser at one or more of the signs. One of the signs will be on the new MPRB kiosk at the corner of Hwy 55 and Wirth Parkway, the others will be completely new. Right now it looks like we'll have three signs besides the kiosk, two along Wirth Parkway where the trail system meets the paved path and one at the Golden Valley entrance to the park at the north end of the biking demostration area (where a paved path from the neighborhood dumps into what's shown as a walking path on my map above - the path that will probably be paved someday as the Luce line connecton).

Maybe we can get IMBA to agree that rodents aren't actually animals.. :p

- Pete

Wheels

11-21-2004, 03:13 PM

Great stuff Pete, thanks for all the hard work.

Ditto. .

flombe

11-21-2004, 08:47 PM

Pete, the maps are great!

Did the reporter/writer from the St. Paul Pioneer Press get his piece about the trailwork into print? I imagine we would have heard about it in the forums.

What is the schedule for the Luce Line trail? I know the city of Golden Valley is the missing link between Medicine Lake and Theo Wirth Park. The money to relocate utilities along Golden Valley Road at the GV Country Club have not been approved the last I heard. Has there been any movement on this?

mckinney

11-21-2004, 10:30 PM

Eric -

Richard Chin, the Pioneer Press reporter, told me that he expects his article to be printed in the Sunday, November 28th edition of the paper. Looks like the guy's really done his homework, so it should be a good article!

Regarding the Luce Line schedule - I'm not quite sure of the status and those that I've talked to in the MPRB have indicated that the final route through Wirth Park has *not* been decided yet. The documents for winter recreation proposal shows possible Luce Line routes and it appears that there are two likely options. The map that Shawn posted above is out of the Wirth Park Winter Recreation Master Plan, a copy of which is on the MPRB site at http://www.minneapolisparks.org/default.asp?PageID=890. It's not clear to me what parts of the plan are actually approved and the timeline for each. The Luce Line routing is just one more part of the puzzle. If anybody here has some new(er) news to share, I'm all ears!

- Pete

Wheels

12-10-2004, 12:50 AM

A quick little eductional thing to mention today about bringing pallets into the woods.

There's a photo in the gallery that inspired this post:

http://www.morcmtb.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=877&size=big&password=&sort=1&cat=501

Anyway, we learned at the IMBA school this fall that pallets can have a huge impact on the natural environment - the hidded issue is that many pallets are imported from Asia, where the wood commonly houses a grub that when introduced to a North American woods can have devestating effects. The larva hatches from the wood, then infects the local trees which have no resistance to the foriegn species.

Bottom line, it's not a good idea to bring pallets into the woods. I hope this photo is from someones back yard...

FSSS

12-10-2004, 07:18 PM

Bottom line, it's not a good idea to bring pallets into the woods.
From the pic, it looks like he already brought them into the woods.

My guess is Theo.

quinnsoccer27

12-12-2004, 05:24 PM

hey i have a question about the surrounding areas of wirth park like quacking bog and places around elois butler, i was resently around the area and i noticed many large 15 foot wide trail right in the middle of the woods, dirt was dug up and large trees were cut down, so my question is how come the city cuts down a large 15 ft path for thier cc ski trails and we can not a have a small 2 ft wide singletrack around that area or even ride our bikes on those large trails if anyone knows how this works please let me know

Wheels

12-12-2004, 05:43 PM

This has been brought up with the Park Board representatives, and the response was this:

1. The Loppet trails (XC loop) is an official Park Board project (as opposed to the Mntn Bike "trial project"). This means that engineering was provided and environmental evaluation was approved.

Now, I know - it's a long way from ripping a 15' trail to the kind of trail we're building, but it's where we're at in the process. The skiers are far more organized than we are, and well funded (it's a 4M project).

I know it's not fair, but be patient. Once we are official, we'll be able to use this as an example of how much environmental damage the city is willing to create in order to provide recreational facilities.

2. The Ski trail is an estabalished system, this is merely an extension of that system - and thus, the parameters for trail construction were already established. We have no such precedence for the city to follow.

Now - about your "walking" the trails - Andrew, I'm going to ask you to cool your heels a bit. I know you've been building a variety of stunts and jumps in the Mpls. Parks (you Golden Valley resident :)) - and bringing pallets into the woods (see my other post on this).

It was one person that (well, one biker and one influecial dog walker) that got us kicked out of Butler and the Bog in the first place - so one person can really make a big difference that effects us all.

You'll only make things more difficult for all of us if you continue doing the things you've been doing. There are bigger and better things on the way, like the expert section on the NE corner of Sweeny. If you would spend your energies with us (and help build stunts officially) we wouldn't be working against each other - and we'll all get some great trail out of it.

How about a day when Cedar is an official stunt park? It could happen, but it's going to take some time to build our reputation and unity.

We have to work together now more than ever - and we will have much more latitude and support in our efforts, like the skiers.

Wheels

12-12-2004, 06:26 PM

Thanks Andrew, good to have you along for the ride. I know - I've done my share of FR'n (most of it before your time - or before they called it "Free Riding") so I know how little there is.

I can tell you that of all the stunts I've built over the years, none are left - so things disappear anyway. With MOCA we have the opportunity to build a legacy, one I'm glad to hear you'll have a part in.

Wheels

02-18-2005, 08:11 PM

As some of you know, I'm not too fond of man-made stunts - at least not those made of lumber or other "unnatural" materials, but this takes things to a new low:

http://www.raysmtb.com/

Why does this relate to this thread? Well, thankfully - we're not allowed to build stunts from man-made materials (unless they happen to already be in the park - like the cement skinny).

Also to note, any stunts we do build have to be within IMBA standards, meaning they can't exceed 30" in height and must have a qualifier at the trail entrance, an alternate route, and a clear bail-out area next to the stunt.

timmy

02-18-2005, 08:39 PM

As some of you know, I'm not too fond of man-made stunts - at least not those made of lumber or other "unnatural" materials, but this takes things to a new low:.

Why does this take things to a new low? I would love if there was something like this around here.

Wheels

02-18-2005, 09:03 PM

Why does this take things to a new low? I would love if there was something like this around here.

Just a personal opinion - but making stunts and surrounding them with fake trees under a roof just seems to me be a bit counter to the "natural high" of biking. Starts to feel like monster trucks, indoor amusement parks, and the like.

I'm sure many people could find this really fun, just not my cup 'o durt. Maybe I'm just showing my age.

cheese4brains

02-18-2005, 09:54 PM

Just a personal opinion - but making stunts and surrounding them with fake trees under a roof just seems to me be a bit counter to the "natural high" of biking. Starts to feel like monster trucks, indoor amusement parks, and the like.

I'm sure many people could find this really fun, just not my cup 'o durt. Maybe I'm just showing my age.

Everyone's allowed an opinion :cool:

Building unauthorized stunts is an easy way to get on the "bad" side of a land manager. The land manager escalates it to the Park Board, and ultimately MORC has to answer to it when they/we want to build a legitimate trail.

Wheels

02-18-2005, 09:57 PM

Oh yea, leave it to me to leave a burning bag of #2 on the doorstep...

I had to think about Thor's objection to my opinion (and it is just that) - so as I was just walking back from the store when it hit me - what it is that bothers me about the whole man-made stunt thing...

When I was a kid, BMX'ng around - trails, urban, jumps - or when we we're skateboarding - we built jumps, ramps, rode some crazy urban terrain and such.

But for the most part we rode to conquer what had been made not to conquer - curbs, walls, loading ramps, and the like. We never made anything to conquer - it was always about the challenge of our environment the way that it was "not" designed for us. Even when making ramps and jumps, it was about conquering the air - not the jump.

But with these man-made stunts, they were made to be riden.

I guess I see it more like riding a unicycle off-road, or trials riding - an impressive display of skills, but not really as much riding as it is stunting.

I guess that's why they're called stunts ;)

Buck

02-18-2005, 10:02 PM

OK ok, don't worry andrew I am super close to closing the deal with Spirit Mtn, They will have a killer DH course after the Greenman DH race.

2nd, Steeple Chase Ski Area is starting to put in FR/DH stuff starting the 28th of April.

3rd. Get involved, starting lobbying and presenting the idea of FR/DH to people. YOu will be surprised how much that helps and just getting the idea out there.

I went to Spirit Mt., showed them a plan that included how I would pay for it, how I would maintain them, where I would get resources, who would maintain, and a plan for the future. Be sure to present yourself as not another TONY HAWK adreniline junky(that is how we are labelled) show that young people aren't the only Demographic that would use the trails. Be respectful to other trail users/builders/maintainers. I am working btw three groups and doing fine. Along with my plan all the trails at Spirit will now also be on a map(GPSed :cool: ), signage is being put up and COGGS is adding some trail once it is approved. Once I get the go ahead from the environmentalists for Spirit I can start building.

From start to present I have only been working on this project since October. Stay enthusiastic and keep the ball rolling.

4th: STOP building ILLEGAL stunts and trails, yes I am guilty of it...but you are in an area that is much more sensitive then mine...that doesn't make mine any more right then yours. Maybe that could be one of your points to drive home. If you get permission to build, you will police a certain area and tear down all unauthorized stunts.

5th: Attend a trail building school.

Hope this advice helps!!! Glad to see more enthusiasm, but it does no good unless you act on it!!!

Keep 'er rubber side down.

Thanks
L8R
Buck

PS: Wheels, I couldn't disagree with ya more...your entitled to your opinion and me to mine...I think it is great!!! I've got an event in mind that you XC types would LOVE in the winter...still doing some research...maybe next year...

Wheels

02-18-2005, 10:17 PM

PS: Wheels, I couldn't disagree with ya more...your entitled to your opinion and me to mine...I think it is great!!! I've got an event in mind that you XC types would LOVE in the winter...still doing some research...maybe next year...

The Spirit thing sounds cool Adam. I'm not exactly a CX guy, been a BMX'r, Downhiller, freestyler, usually spend my day on the pipe when snowboarding - done it all. Just something about stunts I don't get, like trials or unicycle riding on MTB trails - just doesn't hit home for me for some reason. Just something about riding a slick piece of lumber, but to each their own...

When we were kids I remember riding wheelies on this granite wall in DT St. Paul - like 30' off the ground near the end. I don't know why we did it, not the wisest thing - but I'm sure it gave us a rush at the time.

Guess I'll have to try your stunts at Spirit, I meant to get up there all summer last year and never made it.

Thanks for your positive response to my negative post, what you have to say about activism is spot-on. This is exactly how these things will get incorporated into new and existing trails.

For the record, I'm in favor of stunts in Wirth - just know that they'll have to fall within IMBA standards and be made of a natural material. We have a couple of stacks of 6' timbers that the XC skiers gave to us, that should make a good start for zone 6.

Buck

02-18-2005, 10:43 PM

The Spirit thing sounds cool Adam. I'm not exactly a CX guy, been a BMX'r, Downhiller, freestyler, usually spend my day on the pipe when snowboarding - done it all. Just something about stunts I don't get, like trials or unicycle riding on MTB trails - just doesn't hit home for me for some reason. Just something about riding a slick piece of lumber, but to each their own...

When we were kids I remember riding wheelies on this granite wall in DT St. Paul - like 30' off the ground near the end. I don't know why we did it, not the wisest thing - but I'm sure it gave us a rush at the time.

Guess I'll have to try your stunts at Spirit, I meant to get up there all summer last year and never made it.

Thanks for your positive response to my negative post, what you have to say about activism is spot-on. This is exactly how these things will get incorporated into new and existing trails.

For the record, I'm in favor of stunts in Wirth - just know that they'll have to fall within IMBA standards and be made of a natural material. We have a couple of stacks of 6' timbers that the XC skiers gave to us, that should make a good start for zone 6.

Hi Shawn,
Yeah, I totally understand that some people have no want to ride FR stuff. BUT it is good to keep pushing for it, so things like illegal stunts don't become a problem!!! But my first trail will contain little or NO structures at Spirit, it instead will utilize the natural terrain. There is so much exposed rock that it makes noe sense to use Structures, I may use some to connect a couple sections, but not a ton of them.

Freeride doesn't mean stunts(it's to bad that it has turned in to that) Freeride is taking the most technical aspects of XC and DH and putting them all on one trail, it just turned out that the next progression was to add stunts. Anyway, any trail is better then no trail!!! :) I like the pics I keep seeing from Wirth, I'll have to bust out the big bike this spring when I'm all healed up!!! :cool:

L8R
Buck

Wheels

02-18-2005, 11:23 PM

That sounds cool Adam, Spirit has always been my favorite DH race - even the last time I raced XC there - right after they added the technical trail - man that place can be fun.

I know, FR and Stunts have been grouped together - probably even more so here - since it's hard to really call much of anything freeride. Glad to hear things are so positive at Spirit, keep up the good work.

Last summer when the IMBA trail crew were here, I asked about the origin of the wooden stunt craze - and why the BC'rs starting doing it. It was due the constantly soggy terrain in BC, and the desire to actually help sustainability on the trails. It has since become it's own thing. Now it's everywhere - even when it's not necessary.

But watching those movies they put out, where the guys are at a competition - riding some 40' high 2x4 - kind'a reminds me of watching a freestyle motocross competition (next, next, next - oh! another backflip). I like the Red Bull stuff - using natural terrain - having to put it together to make it rideable.

Wirth will only get better with age, I will be putting out the plan for 2005 shortly - and hope to get some good input from the freeride crowd when we get to building zone 6 after the grand opening.

quinnsoccer27

02-22-2005, 03:47 PM

Hey Shawn why don’t u just suck it up and let everyone do their own thing quit with the negativity towards stuff u cant do, to me a foot wide cement pile up is the same thing as a 20 ft long 2 by 4 , some rider might look at a cement slab like in Theo and say o that’s bad that way too unnatural just because they cant do it and appreciate it, that how it is for the harder stuff, like the soon to be destroyed stunt at Theo yea its not "perfect by imba's standards" but its fun as hell if you know what your doing so don’t rag on something you cant appreciate, and if you say that the man made stunts are bad because there meant to be ridden well then you could say that a trail is bad because it was meant to be ridden so why don’t we just plow through the trees and conquer something that wasn’t meant to be conquered that way, but its all perspective a trail might be enough for some people to challenge there self that’s great so just quite your wining at let it be were all here just to ride but at different levels

Wheels

02-22-2005, 04:05 PM

Hey Shawn why don’t u just suck it up and let everyone do their own thing quit with the negativity towards stuff u cant do... so just quite your wining at let it be were all here just to ride but at different levels

Ummm...you've obviously never seen me ride. I've probably forgotten more skills than you've yet to acquire.

Ride whatever gets your rocks off, all said was my opinion - that I think an indoor park is a bit a of a joke.

As far as what gets built in Wirth, it's being built to challenge 99% percent of riders out there - and within IMBA standards. If you want to stack up 2x4's in your neighbor's backyard and ride on the edge - go crazy.

I think I'll build one in my living room so I can polish-up on my skill while I play X-box. You can come over and practice too, you bring the fake trees.

mckinney

02-22-2005, 04:38 PM

Andrew -

I think this thread has gotten split into two different discussions:

1. Stunts at Wirth Park

2 Stunts and their style of construction in general

Regarding the former (Stunts at Wirth Park), the Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board have been pretty clear with us (MOCA) in that we are to construct trails to IMBA standards using natural and available materials only. The cement skinny you referred to is clearly borderline, but was viewed as acceptable because we cleaned up a pile of cement on that spot to construct the skinny. "Natural materials" can cover a wide range and that is something I think we will continually be working out with the park board. The MPRB has also made it clear that the construction of more expert trail sections must follow the completion of a main loop requiring a moderate skill level. Building stunts in Wirth Park either before completion of that loop or without the approval of the MPRB is a surefire way to undermine the progress we have made so far and to potentially cause the MPRB to close off off-road bike access in Wirth Park altogether. MOCA is committed to working with the Park Board to create an off-road trail system that will be used by the cycling community and others for many years. We have had close to 100 cyclists helping out in one way or another thus far, and could certainly use the help of more with a passion for cycling in Wirth Park that you clearly have. Sure, the work is slow-going and frustrating at times, but in the end I think well end up with something that we'll be exited about and proud to have been a part of.

Regarding stunts in general (discussion thread 2), You and Shawn clearly have different opinions on the subject, and to each his own. Shawn's view happens to be more aligned with what the park board may be willing to accept. He is also the trail steward for MOCA, which gives him a way to help shape what goes into Wirth Park in a major way. As I mentioned above, we welcome your input regarding the trails and are working to make the trails sustainable as well as fun and exiting for as many park patrons as possible. *You* can help define what will be constructed and be the one to help push the boundaries of what the MPRB will accept by working within the framework in which so many have worked for three years establish. MOCA meets on the third Wednesday of each month at 7:00 pm in the Kenwood Community Center. Hope to see you there.

- Pete

Tex

02-22-2005, 04:43 PM

I'm sure many people could find this really fun, just not my cup 'o durt. Maybe I'm just showing my age.
I don't know if it's your age Shawn. Because you and I are pretty close in age, and I would try the indoor ridding thing. It beats sitting on the couch, especially when we have no snow to ski on. I don't think I'd ride there every day, but just to be able to get out the bike and hop around a little bit without freezing my arss off would be cool.

Ummm...you've obviously never seen me ride. I've probably forgotten more skills than you've yet to acquire.

Now, that one, might just be your age. You know they say the memory is the first thing to go. ;) Everyone just calm down and remember we are supposed to be on the same team here. We already are fighting with the people in their cars, the roadies, and the park board, there's no need to be fighting amongst ourselves. Like I've said before "opinions are like a$$holes, everybody has one", it's just no one wants to hear anyone elses.:D

bigwheel

02-22-2005, 04:47 PM

As I type this, I'm looking at my office tree -- Real tree, fake environment. I spent lunch time today on a machine that simulates walking up stairs. I guess I need a life.

When I first started doing trail work at Leb and Terrace, the thing that amazed me the most was the amount of human labor and heavy machinery that it takes to make a trail appear like we didn't do anything.

mckinney

02-22-2005, 04:59 PM

When I first started doing trail work at Leb and Terrace, the thing that amazed me the most was the amount of human labor and heavy machinery that it takes to make a trail appear like we didn't do anything.

Bob hit the nail on the head with that comment. The MPRB is continually reminding us that any newly-constructed trails should look like they've been there forever and are part of the natural landscape. The same will hold true for any stunts I'm sure, which will be a tough constraint, but not insurmountable if we put enough thought and creativity into it.

- Pete

Wheels

02-22-2005, 05:29 PM

Alright, an indoor park isn't all that bad. And I'm not trying to divide any of us. Just stating my personal opinion on the false riding-environment thing. It's just a personal thing I guess, I've never liked the BC inspired stunt thing.

If age has anything to do with it, it's probably more of a been there done that sort of thing...I think we need challenge at all levels, and the building of stunts in Wirth is the plan. Just has to fit the requirements we've agreed to - the IMBA standards.

IMBA has defined a whole new set of Freeride parameters for stunts, and I assure you I'll be pursuing efforts to take things right to the limit as we progress in our relationship with the MPRB.

MOCA has agreed to use only natural materials in the construction of stunts and technical additions, something I had no objections to when the MPRB made the requirement.

Andrew - as I was writing about the "man-made vs. natural" response I knew that it could be seen as hypocritical in that we are altering the terrain at Wirth to provide trail, so point taken.. but that has been our task from the beginning - trying to find some balance. I think the IMBA standards are a good compromise.

Altogether, this is a pretty thick subject. We've been working with the city for three years now - and I've taken heat for my efforts from all sides (which I don't mind). I now find myself firmly in the middle, which should be good news for anyone concerned about my position and how it will effect the decisions and influence I make in my position as trails steward.

I've spent about 40 hours so far putting together the 2005 MOCA Construction and Maintenance Plan (and I'm still not done). I'm neck deep in trying to put it all together in a way that every can clearly see where we've been, where we are, and where we're going. Most importantly, why things are the way they are - and what we have to do build the trust and respect we'll need to expand the system past the pilot project.

quinnsoccer27

02-22-2005, 05:35 PM

shawn i wasnt trying to bag on your skills i was just saying my opinion, it may have came out a little harsh,

Wheels

02-22-2005, 05:54 PM

Like I've said before "opinions are like a$$holes, everybody has one", it's just no one wants to hear anyone elses.:D

And everything else you said Erik...nobody wants to see mine...

I'm just glad my opinion can stimulate some discussion, but some may view that as too much from the Trail Steward.

My esteemed predecessor in this position is appreciatively known for his candor as well (Baba) and tried to teach me thing or two about the politics of this thing. So far he's been right on the money, sage advice I've only started heeding since he departed.

Anyway, sorry Andrew for my sharp response - and you can still come over and play X-box ;)

Just so every knows where I stand on stunts in the pilot park - I'm for them. Skinny logs (no 2x4's) and all. I've actually been lobbying for a indoor trials park - oops, - I mean I've been asking MOCA to push a trials/qualifier area at the old-drop off. Then working these kinds of stunts into the expert section on the NE corner (zone 6) when we start construction there mid-summer.

There are couple of spots in there that I think could be made into gap jumps/rollers like Leb as well.

As for the 2005 plan - it should be done soon. It's a .pdf, so you can download and view on your 'puter.

As for the indoor stunt parks - well, I think I've riled enough feathers, so'll I'll leave it alone. :eyeroll:

quinnsoccer27

02-22-2005, 06:01 PM

i completely agree that stunts should not be out of place 2 by 4s or any 2 by 4rs for that matter, i think that they should be natrual and flowy and blend in with the surrounding area

Wheels

02-22-2005, 06:16 PM

i completely agree that stunts should not be out of place 2 by 4s or any 2 by 4rs for that matter, i think that they should be natrual and flowy and blend in with the surrounding area

I was just thinking about the ravine in zone 6 - what if we made that a chute, with 2' logs as a sort of berm all the way down? We were talking about doing a similar thing in zone three (near the Humane Society) but we knew that the time we would have to spend doing it was more than we could handle, so we had to route above the ravine. We can always go back later.

It's all there to be had, and we're making great progress. Wait until we've been at this a couple of years - we're just getting started.

FSSS

02-22-2005, 06:35 PM

As for the indoor stunt parks - well, I think I've riled enough feathers, so'll I'll leave it alone. :eyeroll:

Ray's Mtb Park is in a completely unnatural setting - a very different experience than riding a trail like Wirth. Apples and oranges. Discussing apples to validate an opinion during a discussion about oranges seems kind of off topic.

Starting a discussion about man-made stunts in Theo Wirth would have been one thing...

I just think starting out by ripping on an indoor mtb park wasn't the best way to bring the subject up. Especially since A LOT of people think the idea of Ray's Mtb Park is really cool.

I'm not trying to be disrespectful - I really appreciate all the work you do!!

Wheels

02-22-2005, 07:25 PM

Ray's Mtb Park is in a completely unnatural setting - a very different experience than riding a trail like Wirth. Apples and oranges. Discussing apples to validate an opinion during a discussion about oranges seems kind of off topic.

Starting a discussion about man-made stunts in Theo Wirth would have been one thing...

I just think starting out by ripping on an indoor mtb park wasn't the best way to bring the subject up. Especially since A LOT of people think the idea of Ray's Mtb Park is really cool.

I'm not trying to be disrespectful - I really appreciate all the work you do!!

Thank Pete,

Point taken - I'm movin' on.

As far as the MOCA work goes, I'm glad to do it - nothing' better than tromping around in the woods tying ribbons with Tim Wegner and a few nude guys... ;) , right Tim?

As much as I'd like my opinion to be the only one that matters:), I'll mention that there are a lot of others good folks working behind the scenes within MOCA and MORC (just not as vocal as I am I guess) that are making this thing happen.

Buck

02-22-2005, 07:56 PM

hahahaha, wow guys, this has taken a ton of spins!!!!!
Here is what I'll say.
MOCA dudes leadin' up the Wirth project have been workin' their tales off!(props to them!) Andrew, be part of the solution, you obviuosly like FR/DH, get involved make change! MOCA wants to protect what they have, by putting illegal stunts in Wirth(even if you didn't build them) jepordizes(sp?) what they have done to this point. It's obvious that they could use your help gettin' ideas flowin'!!! Get a workin' to help out, the sooner the XC crap :p ;) is out of the way the sooner you can help build more challenging stuff... The FR scene is going to explode this year in Minnesota!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:bana na: hurray!

L8R
Buck
PS: I need to ride Wirth, it sounds awesome!!!

timmy

02-22-2005, 08:20 PM

Anyone know if trail work at theo is still going to be on Wednesday's?

Tex

02-23-2005, 09:10 AM

mara

02-23-2005, 10:51 AM

Anyone know if trail work at theo is still going to be on Wednesday's?

I'm sure our Esteemed Trail Steward will post something more definitive, but my understanding is that Wednesdays will start as soon as trails allow and there is enough light in the evenings. Sundays are back on as soon as we are able to work, too. To the delight of trail work junkies everywhere, there are even rumors of some Saturday sessions.

I can't wait to spend some quality time alone in the woods with my Pulaski...

Wheels

02-23-2005, 11:58 AM

I really have to give you MOCA boys props too for all you energy, drive and determination. I was only able to help with trail maintenance twice this past summer, and both times we made huge progress. But I found the most difficult part though wasn't the actual physical labor, but working within the very limited parameters set-up by both IMBA and the city of Minneapolis. In a couple places we (the grunts) wanted to set up a little berm, or banked corner, but the trail boss said that the city would never allow it. You could tell the trail boss was into the idea, but had to be the wet blanket on our little dream.

After actually working on the trails and gaining a better of understanding of the limitations that we have to working with, I appreciate what we have all that much more. To go from the haphazard maze of intersecting trails, to the flowing one way system we have now, in only a season or two is pretty impressive. Now all we have to do is start getting rid of the pervs down at the beach. Has MOCA inquired about if we would ever be able to make actual legal trails down closer to the lake? There's some pretty fun stuff down there, as long as you don't mind bunny hopping over naked dudes. And when I say "bunny-hopping", I mean to actually lift your bike to hop off the ground and over something, not in some sick perverted way some of you sickos might read into that.:D

Thanks Erik,

The area along the west side is zone 8 - the plan there is to create an expert loop. You'll enter and exit the loop from the west side of zone 4 - we never included it in other plans because we knew we would never get it done in time for the grand opening. It's in the new plan, at the end of the plan as a sort of wish list item.

http://www.5gdm.com/trans/zones_lowres.jpg

There are a lot of things we had to sideline last season, for two reasons - the first one (as in zone 8) - we just didn't have enough workers to get everything we wanted built before the grand opening deadline. We knew it would be close, so we didn't push the Park Board for things we knew we couldn't get done.

Zone 8 is very steep, so our hopes were to get the Dingos in there to do the heavy work. We knew we'd have to get to a point where the city would not only consider allowing us to build on the steep terrain, but allow the machines. We did finally get to use machines in zone 3 - but the MPRB wasn't too excited about the results, although their opinion may change once spring growth begins to smooth out the edges so to speak.

We spent a full day last fall cleaning up the mess we created with the machines - and the MPRB's attitude about the use of machines cooled a bit. I guess the bottom line is the machines help, but it's the hand built trail they love - so we'll simply need more sweat to get something like zone 8 done.

Secondly, berms and stunts - we've begun to build these features, but again it's been a bit of a battle proving our ability to build these things. Pulling a crew aside to build a berm or stunt can bring our overall progress to a crawl - and the MPRB is just now beginning to understand what kind of value these features add to the system.

I think you'll see much more of this kind of thing in future - baby steps...

Wheels

02-23-2005, 12:02 PM

I'm sure our Esteemed Trail Steward will post something more definitive, but my understanding is that Wednesdays will start as soon as trails allow and there is enough light in the evenings. Sundays are back on as soon as we are able to work, too. To the delight of trail work junkies everywhere, there are even rumors of some Saturday sessions.

I can't wait to spend some quality time alone in the woods with my Pulaski...

Probably wednesdays, but I'm sure we'll be doing weekends as well as other nights to get everything done before opening.

The Trail Committee hasn't addressed this issue yet - but we'll keep you posted as we get closer to the work season.

Tim Wegner

02-23-2005, 04:26 PM

While it may seem as if the standards set up by IMBA for trail sustainablity throw a bit of "wet blanket" on the trail, you cannot argue that the standards utilized in the trail construction are not sound. The intent in putting "legal" trails in Wirth was to eliminate erosion and damage to the park.

IMBA standards were utilized in Lebanon Hills and the trails there have stood up to 100,000+ trips over the past few years. That is the same goal we had in mind when Shawn and I worked on Wirth. Wheels and I had some hard discussion about why the trail needs to be a certain way and what will happen if not done correctly now, Shawn is one of the strongest supporters of sustainalbe construction.

I can point out 3-4 trails in Minnesotat that were not built to sustainable standards and while they were fine the first couple of years they quickly began to fall apart and suffer from erosion and significant trail creep.

Can a trail come straight down the fall line? Absolutely, IF it is armoured.It will take a ton of time and resources to armor a very small section of trail but sometimes that is what is needed. The section we did at Afton last fall took almost 2 days to complete about 50 feet of downhill. It WILL last forever. 80% of the stone was buried in the dirt, the stones were all anchored in place and it will handle any water that comes upon the trail.

Tim

Wheels

02-23-2005, 07:06 PM

While it may seem as if the standards set up by IMBA for trail sustainablity throw a bit of "wet blanket" on the trail, you cannot argue that the standards utilized in the trail construction are not sound...

Tim

I was just writing about this in the 2005 plan, the one thing for everyone to keep in mind is that we have been on a really tight schedule - we're going to be very lucky to have the basic loop ready by the time of the grand opening.

Once the loop is marked and open to the public officially, the evaluation phase of the project will begin. There are a few main things that we will be graded-on, the most important of which is sustainability. The next factor plays directly into this, as we will also be graded-on our ability to provide the basic ongoing maintenance of the loop as well. By staying within strict standards, we will reduce the amount of resources (volunteers) we will need to commit to trail maintenance.

Pete McKinney is putting together the data to show how many hours it takes to construct a single kilometer of trail - as well as what it takes to maintain a kilometer of trail. By the end of the coming summer we should have an accurate number to provide the MPRB reflecting our projected requirements for not only the current system - but also what it will take to expand the system further into the other parks.

We simply didn't have the time or a strong enough organizational structure to do anything more than get the core loop completed. Once the loop is open, we can go back and focus energy on making improvements and expert sections - and eventually add more stunts.

If portions of the loop seem a bit too mild, and it could also have something to do with the fact that we really didn't know what we were doing when we first started building. I think Tim has demonstrated a lot of patience and commitment for bringing us along and keeping us pointed in the right direction. We are now poised to move ahead with a great base that the MPRB approves of, all we need now is more sweat equity.

Building within IMBA standards was simply the smartest thing to we could do. When Tim and I were laying out the trails, the one thing that it always came down to was "well, how much work do you want to do to make that happen?" - the usual resolve was - "well, you can always go back and do it later when you have more help, let's just concentrate on getting it done on time".

So, there's always going to be more to do - because we had a lot of those kind of exchanges!

The Buckthorn Killer

02-23-2005, 09:36 PM

I'm Ready To Build!

Buck

02-23-2005, 09:53 PM

Aaroneous

02-24-2005, 08:19 AM

Here is what we need to build...

Wow. I'm not much for NS-style stunts, but that's just some quality handiwork... There's no freaking way I would hit that teeter - makes my teeth ache just looking at it...

KleinCrazy

02-24-2005, 08:54 AM

Here is what we need to build...this is what I want to build some where in MN or something like it...100% natural and unbelievable craftsmanship.

http://bb.nsmb.com/newforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46318

L8R
Buck

I hear yah Buck, but it will never happen. We have no cedar to use and any of the natural woods we have to build with would decay in a matter of 2-3 years witht he weather conditions we have.

Blame the ecology of MN on why it makes stuff like this so hard for us.

Buck

02-24-2005, 09:34 AM

I hear yah Buck, but it will never happen. We have no cedar to use and any of the natural woods we have to build with would decay in a matter of 2-3 years witht he weather conditions we have.

Blame the ecology of MN on why it makes stuff like this so hard for us.

Yeah I know, but that trail construction is so perfect, definitely a model to follow.

That trail brings a tear to my eye...heck that ain't a trail that is a work of art...I will one day ride that trail...:cool:

L8R
Buck

KleinCrazy

02-24-2005, 09:52 AM

Yeah I know, but that trail construction is so perfect, definitely a model to follow.

That trail brings a tear to my eye...heck that ain't a trail that is a work of art...I will one day ride that trail...:cool:

L8R
Buck

I'll agree with you there, It is a work of art and something even my wimpy self would attempt to ride just to say I have.

TML

02-24-2005, 09:53 AM

Yeah I know, but that trail construction is so perfect, definitely a model to follow.

That trail brings a tear to my eye...heck that ain't a trail that is a work of art...I will one day ride that trail...:cool:

L8R
Buck

So true. That is some serious craftsmanship. James has it right. We're lacking some rather fun natural resources. C'mon, all I'm askin for is a nice stand of Douglas and Western Red cedar with a few Redwoods thrown in for good measure. Is that too much to ask? Oh, and maybe some 6ft diameter nurse logs on which to start building things.

Ok, back to minnesota now. . .

Buck

02-24-2005, 10:11 AM

So true. That is some serious craftsmanship. James has it right. We're lacking some rather fun natural resources. C'mon, all I'm askin for is a nice stand of Douglas and Western Red cedar with a few Redwoods thrown in for good measure. Is that too much to ask? Oh, and maybe some 6ft diameter nurse logs on which to start building things.

Ok, back to minnesota now. . .

mmmmm, I'm actually runnin' down a lead right now that may get me access to HUGE peices of rough cut scrap from a company on the NS of MN that builds log cabins. They use all cedar is what I am told and just give the scrap away......mmmmmm, natural cedar stunts..................

L8R
Buck

Kosk

02-24-2005, 10:17 AM

.....mmmmmm, natural cedar stunts................. ...connecting rock faces and boulders at Spirit.....[Homer]ahhawhuahauhwuahwah.

That's when FR stunts are cool, when they ADD flow and connect features that are otherwise unridable by themselves. Or they create huge hucks, huge hucks are good too, yup.

Wheels

02-24-2005, 10:30 AM

...connecting rock faces and boulders at Spirit.....[Homer]ahhawhuahauhwuahwah.

That's when FR stunts are cool, when they ADD flow and connect features that are otherwise unridable by themselves. Or they create huge hucks, huge hucks are good too, yup.

That's kind of what I was thinking about in zone 6 (obviously we have no boulders) but maybe we have FR alternative (we have expert alternatives in other zones) could be something like a kicker with huge gap. The landing would have to be armored, but if we put it in the right place - it could actually be very discreet.

We'll begin design and work on zone 6 sometime mid-summer (after we finish the main loop - and do the yearly maintenance) It's really a fresh canvas, and I know many within MOCA are already itching to dig in, but I encourage anyone interested to survey the area and bring their ideas to the group once we start doing the design.

bigwheel

02-24-2005, 11:03 AM

Here is what we need to build...this is what I want to build some where in MN or something like it...100% natural and unbelievable craftsmanship.

http://bb.nsmb.com/newforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46318

L8R
Buck

That's an awesome work of art. There's no way in hell I'd even consider riding it!

But based on the pictures, it appears that they are just cutting posts and planting them in the ground. Same with the rest of the structure. Nothing is treated. Won't this rot in a few years, turning this magnificent structure into a fragile pile of laywer bait?

Kosk

02-24-2005, 11:06 AM

Its made of cedar = lasts FOREVER.

Buck

02-24-2005, 11:08 AM

That's an awesome work of art. There's no way in hell I'd even consider riding it!

But based on the pictures, it appears that they are just cutting posts and planting them in the ground. Same with the rest of the structure. Nothing is treated. Won't this rot in a few years, turning this magnificent structure into a fragile pile of laywer bait?

It's all cedar, no need to be treated that will be there for decades with basic up keep, that guy is building using ROCK SOLID techniques. Every time I look at that thread I am simply amazed at what I see...so well constructed...unbelievable...all those ringers are hand split...I want cedar.........
L8R
Buck

TML

02-24-2005, 11:11 AM

But based on the pictures, it appears that they are just cutting posts and planting them in the ground. Same with the rest of the structure. Nothing is treated. Won't this rot in a few years, turning this magnificent structure into a fragile pile of laywer bait?

Cedar and Redwood are naturally resistant to rot. That is why they are used in many deck and outdoor furniture applications. The wood will last a long time without anything on it. Putting just clear preservatives on it then just helps to enhance and retain the color.

Wheels

02-24-2005, 11:30 AM

When the IMBA trail crew was here this summer, they showed us photos of what happens to this stuff after a couple of seasons - and it's not too pretty. Of course, it's way more wet out there in BC.

I think it's going to be a hard sell to the city - but if we can come up with some creative solutions, I think it can be done. Can one of you FR guys do some more research and get back to me? Make sure to download the IMBA FR Manual (pdf) (http://www.imba.com/news/trail_news/17_1/itn_17_1.pdf) (I have a hard copy here BTW).

Here's a link to the IMBA Freeride resources (http://www.imba.com/resources/freeriding/index.html) .

I know the main thing with cedar is to keep it from wicking moisture from the soil (that's why it's always best to cement your fence posts).

And while your at it, I could use a couple of adirondack chairs for the back yard :)

Buck

02-24-2005, 11:46 AM

Hey Shawn,

Can you be a little more specific with what you are looking for, I'm always pokin' around the net lookin' at this stuff.
Thanks
L8R
Buck

Wheels

02-24-2005, 11:51 AM

Hey Shawn,

Can you be a little more specific with what you are looking for, I'm always pokin' around the net lookin' at this stuff.
Thanks
L8R
Buck

Im thinking of something like this:
http://www.5gdm.com/trans/HC001.jpg

Actually, I was talking about preserving the wood - or techniques that would make it more sustainable.

bigwheel

02-24-2005, 12:08 PM

Wheels

02-24-2005, 12:18 PM

Good point about the cedar and redwood, everyone. I hadn't considered that.

However, I'm still skeptical. My cabin's old dock was cedar, and it did not last forever. It held up well, but the areas surrounding the screws, where it was constantly damp, didn't fare quite as well, and the screws would eventually pull out. We also used to use cedar posts for our dog kennel when I was growing up. (we lived near a cedar swamp) Once in the damp ground, they were starting to fall over after about 5~10 years. The exposed area was still in good shape, but the part below ground level didn't fare as well. (Note: we didn't add any treatment to the posts.) Maybe my memory is getting bad, but I don't think that cedar lasts forever. Take a walk around a cedar swamp, any you'll see them in all stages of decay.

That's been my experience as well - and I know it will be the primary concern the MPRB has, how will it stand up, who will maintain it, so forth.

Buck

02-24-2005, 12:29 PM

Good point about the cedar and redwood, everyone. I hadn't considered that.

However, I'm still skeptical. My cabin's old dock was cedar, and it did not last forever. It held up well, but the areas surrounding the screws, where it was constantly damp, didn't fare quite as well, and the screws would eventually pull out. We also used to use cedar posts for our dog kennel when I was growing up. (we lived near a cedar swamp) Once in the damp ground, they were starting to fall over after about 5~10 years. The exposed area was still in good shape, but the part below ground level didn't fare as well. (Note: we didn't add any treatment to the posts.) Maybe my memory is getting bad, but I don't think that cedar lasts forever. Take a walk around a cedar swamp, any you'll see them in all stages of decay.

Obviously it won't last forever...:eyeroll: ...but it will last significantly longer then any other NATURAL building material available other then rock, and if you can build a bridge using rocks that can stand on its own with no concrete or maintenance I'd like to see it! ;)

Everything needs to be maintained from time to time, to say that you are going to build a stucture that last forever with no maintenance is kinda being ignorant.
L8R
Buck

Kosk

02-24-2005, 12:41 PM

Yeah, cedar will rot in the the ground, that's just mother nature doing her thing, (unless you cement them in) but the decking, the stuff up off the ground will last for a very long time. My dad's deck is made out of Redwood and it's been around since I was born and that was 25 years ago, still going strong.

I don't really think Wirth is a place to build copius amounts of stuff like this. There are too many other factors invovled. Mainly, its got lots of nice dirt for single track, and is relatively flat. A place like Spirit though, with its terrain, lends itself well to adding ladder bridges to gap between rock faces and avoid permanent wet areas.
Like this:
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-1/926261/bike_action_12.jpg

The FR "stunts" have been taken out of context, and the explosion in popularity has skewed it to who can build the gnarliest back yard huck. People forget that it all originated on the NS where the ground was too wet to build single track on. Ladder bridges allowed riders to create trails on extremely rough terrain (see above) where no trail could otherwise be made. Adam had it right when he said that a FR trail is taking the techiest from XC and DH and putting them in one trail..I'll add that you also need the terrain to host that type of trail as well. I personally don't think Wirth has that type of terrain. Its got good dirt, build single track, (the holy grail of trail types). I'd rather spend my time building this type of stuff at a place like Spirit where the natural terrain can be ENHANCED and the trail extended becuase of it. Throwing this up in the middle of some flat dirt single track is like throwing in a billboard or something. If something does get built, build it where the terrain lends itself to it.

Buck

02-24-2005, 12:49 PM

bigwheel

02-24-2005, 12:54 PM

Good points, Pete and Adam.

What I was trying to say was that the posts are buried, and the entire structure is built on the posts. If the posts rot, the whole structure is toast. Then it becomes much more than a little bit of maintenance. Painting the proper chemicals onto the posts will help, but it is nowhere near the life you get with pressure treated lumber.

Kosk

02-24-2005, 12:58 PM

Word. You think like I do. I was gonna edit my last post and add that if Wirth has anything, it should be a solid six pack, so much dirt!

I did not know that about that shot, but now that you point it out, it does explain how "perfect" it is. I just like how is captures the point of what I was trying to get across about "stunts" and trail building - paint trail across the canvas nature gives.

flombe

02-24-2005, 10:25 PM

It could be my BMX days, but it is what I know in terms of dirt-jumping. I would like to see some high speed rollers (whoop-dee-doos!), gap jumps, and tabletops with some swoopy "in-sloped" (berms!) corners thrown in. I think this would be in keeping with trails built for all abilities. Riders could choose to roll over or launch off of the jumps eliminating the need for bypasses which could eat up valuable space in the proposed expert zones.

I was skiing last weekend and there was a big roller over a tunnel on the chalet return run that anyone could ski over, but if you carried your speed you could launch off that thing and fly for 30 feet or more onto a perfect downslope landing. Not big air, but anytime I feel like I am flying is alright by me. It was similar to a Super GS jump. It was similar to some of the roller coaster hills up in Chequamegon where you can carry gobs of speed and get airborne on occassion.

I would also like to see some more technical rock gardens with elevation and direction changes. Not sure what is possible with the MPRB and the restrictions on using machines. Not to mention hauling materials in, costs, etc. Wheels, what is allowed in terms of hauling in materials?

I will polish my shovel for spring trail building!

Wheels

02-27-2005, 05:21 PM

I would also like to see some more technical rock gardens with elevation and direction changes. Not sure what is possible with the MPRB and the restrictions on using machines. Not to mention hauling materials in, costs, etc. Wheels, what is allowed in terms of hauling in materials?

Eric, et al..
We can bring in as much material as we need, or can muster for that matter. Obviously, we don't want to let it get out of hand, but I don't think that's a problem - the logistics alone are the problem.

I was just reviewing the IMBA Freeride pages and came across this:

http://www.imba.com/resources/freeriding/risk_management.html

I think the part I was looking for is this:

2. Build Partnerships and Communicate
Successful trail projects require close collaboration among freeriders, land managers and local mountain bike clubs. By consulting with freeriders and incorporating their suggestions into trail management decisions, planners can develop trail systems that have broader appeal. This effort will also reduce unauthorized trail construction. Judgemental attitudes and negative stereotypes from either side can undermine successful partnerships.

Although I didn't do it in a very positive way - I was trying to stimulate this very conversation - and give people some perspective on where I stand on Freeriding. I simply think that some aspects have gone too far, but I'm fully in support of the core riders that do it.

Here's an analogy - A DH race I did in Canada a few years ago, the trail builders we're these hardcore riders, and they built a 15 foot drop off into the course. There were only a few of us who would even take the thing, much less race over it - so they rerouted the course for everyone. It just went too far.

I think the latest comments on the inclusion of Freeriding in Wirth mirror where I think we will end up on this issue, and also reflect my wishes to keep things as natural as possible. The terrain in Wirth simply won't support a lot of natural stunts, so we'll have to be very savy about the synthetic features we choose to create.

On another note, the 2005 Trail Plan is almost complete - I've just sent it off to Peter McKinney (MOCA President) for the initial review. Next it will go the MOCA Trail Committee and then for MOCA Board approval at the next meeting. The document covers everything we've done, and everything we want to do in the future - it's 12 pages in length and features detailed maps of everything.

Wheels

02-27-2005, 05:37 PM

Obviously it won't last forever...:eyeroll: ...but it will last significantly longer then any other NATURAL building material available other then rock, and if you can build a bridge using rocks that can stand on its own with no concrete or maintenance I'd like to see it! ;)

Everything needs to be maintained from time to time, to say that you are going to build a stucture that last forever with no maintenance is kinda being ignorant.
L8R
Buck

Well, we could... maybe. We're only allowed 30" in height - so could we stitch together some boulders and smaller stones? I think it's possible, we're just going to have to be more creative and willing to work harder to make it happen within our constraints. Bottom line, we'll need to sweat more...

As far as maintenance, this is where volunteerism comes in. It doesn't take a lot of people to maintain - but it requires dedication. There is one person that maintains all of the stunts at Leb (JL?) but he's basically on-call, and does a weekly inspection to ensure they are working properly.

We'll have to demonstrate our commitment and ability to maintain these features over the long haul to gain the trust of the MPRB.

As with those of us who have been involved since the beginning, we all have to realize that compromise is not failure - but the key to success.

Buck

02-27-2005, 09:27 PM

Well, we could... maybe. We're only allowed 30" in height - so could we stitch together some boulders and smaller stones? I think it's possible, we're just going to have to be more creative and willing to work harder to make it happen within our constraints. Bottom line, we'll need to sweat more...

As far as maintenance, this is where volunteerism comes in. It doesn't take a lot of people to maintain - but it requires dedication. There is one person that maintains all of the stunts at Leb (JL?) but he's basically on-call, and does a weekly inspection to ensure they are working properly.

We'll have to demonstrate our commitment and ability to maintain these features over the long haul to gain the trust of the MPRB.

As with those of us who have been involved since the beginning, we all have to realize that compromise is not failure - but the key to success.

Yeah Totally agree on the maintencance part, I built a trail once, that took two years to complete cuz it was just me building AND maintaining it...but it is to the point that it needs less and less maintenance as I smooth out the rough areas.

As for the height thingy, up Houghton, MI they are under a 30" rule also, but they have the longest hardest skinny I have ever seen! Super sketchy and looks unbelievably fun! If you can't get the height people want then keep it low and make it super skinny, and throw some teeters(on the skinnies of course :cool: ) and stuff in there, maybe add a DJ element to it as well and combine some things. make some step ups out of the ravines up on to platforms, so really that 30" mark is being followed, but you have to jump the three feet out of the ravine too so really it is like a 5 foot high step up. then build a little lip at the end of the raised part, and step back down in to another ravine, or to the backside of rock, or maybe a gap jump to another section of structure...there you go you could make and elevated rythm section!. see even with 30" inch rule you could make some unbelievably cool things...when you guys start out in the field planning I'd love to come walk the corridor that you can build in and just shoot ideas out. I may not be able to help build it, but I sure can throw some ideas out your way to help!

L8R
Buck

Wheels

04-25-2005, 03:28 PM

Just an update from ye old Trail Steward:

As noted in other posts, the loop is complete - meaning everything is now connected and old entrances have been closed and rerouted to their official locations.

What's lacking yet are the signs and map kiosks - those will be going in shortly, but keep in mind that the official direction is clockwise, the main entrance/exits are Hwy 55/Theo Parkway, Theo Parkway/Bike Path south of the RR bridge, Theo Pkwy/Bike Path north of the bridge and the Golden Valley entrance on the north side near the Sleep Center.

To enter the loop in the main park next to the Par 3, you enter at the junction of the gravel road and the ski trail - there's a new two-way trail that ramps-up on your left. Go left at the top and you're on the loop going clockwise.

We have 44 days until the grand opening. We will be doing work on the trails right up to the opening, but Tom and I have decided to cut back to Wednesdays (5:00) and Saturdays (9:00) from here on out as we are pretty much on schedule if not ahead (there's always rain to screw that up - we'll see). We'll cut back to Wednesdays only after the opening. You'll have to keep close watch of these boards or sign up for the email list at www.mocatrails.org to find out where we'll be working - as we will be much more mobile, working on sections and moving on to the next quickly.

Tom and I will always post or cell numbers on the main gate on Theo Pkwy so you can locate us if you come late to work sessions. You'll probably want to bring a bike.

Some of the work we'll be doing over the next month and a half is very labor intensive, so don't think we can't still use a lot of help. We'll be doing armoring, erosion control with stones, pinning with stones (stones are heavy - please come help!) and well be starting the yearly maintenance such as trimming of branches- so we'll have something for everyone!

Thanks to anyone and everyone who has lifted a finger or two to help make this happen, the amount of work, dedication, and perseverance is monumental. What we've created here is the foundation for the first Urban Singletrack System in the country - we're groundbreaking so to speak.

It's important for everyone to realize that although things have changed, that we may have taken out some of you're favorite trail, whatever gets under your skin - is that this is just the beginning, things will continually improve and the trail will only get better from here on out.

Yesterday, I made my first recreational ride of the trails in quite a long time - I took a group of young riders on their first ride in the Wirth system. Both Christopher Cross and myself found ourselves reminiscing about our first rides in the park and how green we were - for both of us it was an enlightening experience that furthered our love and cycling and led us to where we are today. It was fun to watch this group of new riders take their virgin rides and know that many more like them will follow on these trails and fall in love with the sport as well.

BTW - riding the entire loop (twice) has a real blast - I think CC and I did it in 20 minutes or less the second time - full tilt. These trails are sweet!

Wheels

04-28-2005, 01:03 AM

Another work night update:

As previously mentioned, the loop has been completed - but we still have tons of work to do, literally TONS! As in the tons of rocks we are using to make improvements and repairs.

We started on Zone 5 tonight, as it has had the most problems due to the fact that much of it was built during a wet period last summer. The trail never really broke in properly as a result of anxious riders leaving a deep rut in the fresh track.

So we tore into it tonight, taking the outside edge off much of the track - which almost instantly dried out the trail. We also used rocks to pin corners that were drifting in, we made cuts to improve flow due to bad initial trail placement, and we armored most of the drainage crossings with field stone.

We purchased a rock hauling 2-wheel cart today, it's a massive device that was finely piloted by Lead Trail Boss Tom Anderson. As I told him, just because it can haul 1/2 ton rocks doesn't mean we have to use 1/2 ton rocks!

Mara found what she thought was a small stone, after some digging, and some more digging - she unearthed a 5 or 6 hundred pound stone which now lies at the base of a badly eroding ravine. Be careful if you're out there - we're not done chinking-in this section - Bill and I both went over the bars on the thing - so watch yourself, it's sketchy.

Tonight was hard work, but it was really a blast. I think everyone on the crew was happy to be doing something besides building trail for a change. Tweaking what we've already built is very satisfying - we're now able to go back and make the trail even better by making small adjustments.

For example, at the exit to zone 5 - Sunday I was riding the turn that drops into the big hump and noticed that I couldn't quite rail the backslope because of the entry and uneven curve in the turn. With a flat shovel I was able to smooth the backslope into a 12" high berm that you can rail into the base of the hump and catch a little air off the front. Very satisfying.

The highlight of the night had to be the presence of the biker formerly known as "The Trail Steward". Having Baba working next to me again was really sweet - thanks Bill. Second to that was the MPRB's own Jennifer Ringold making her first ride of the loop with Pete and I - until she flatted (my fault) - so I gave her my rear wheel. She came back with a big smile and a bit of a adrenaline buzz - pretty cool.

We're still waiting for approval by the environmentalist on our two biggest armoring projects, in the meantime we'll finish what we started in zone 5 on Saturday. Should be a light day as we quite a few trail bosses going to the IMBA school this weekend. If all goes well, we should have 5 tons of stone delivered on friday to keep us going.

If you feel like blowing off some steam, come on out and help us move some rocks. We'll be starting at 9:00, meet at the par three, or come find us in zone 5.

Wheels

04-30-2005, 01:35 PM

Trail work update 4.30.05:

Well, things got off to a bad start today. Seems we were unaware of the Walk your Pet event at the Humane Society today, so Theo Prkwy was shut down - thus nobody could get to the par 3 to meet. Tom and I mulled it over and decided to park in the only available spot, the Sleep Center off Golden Valley Rd.

If you came out and couldn't find us, my apologies - we walked back to the par 3 and did a once around to zone 5 and found 2 workers on bikes - one more showed up later.

So we went to work on the north entrance in zone 4 - it's the main entrance when you're coming from Golden Valley. It's pretty much a straight shot into the zone 4 trail. We got most of it done, just some touch up work to do. Not bad for a crew of 5. We also debermed some of the trail in where the new entrance meets the trail - seems that things got sloped-in somehow. Should stay drier now.

We'll be back in to finish the armoring of zone 5 on wednesday, so stay tuned.

Wheels

05-10-2005, 11:04 PM

Trail work update 05.07.05:

Finally, the some serious help showed up. Erik E. is a take charge kind of guy (you rock on the rocks Double-E). He also made us a cool new logo, which should be out soon.

I think we had 15 or more show up, a little chaotic at first, but once we got going we were able to slam out a bunch of work.

Zone 5 is done. It's armored, pinned, and a couple of other tweaks to make things better in the long run. We removed the tree after the in-sloped turn, so you can rip it without banging your shoulder.

We also cleaned up the out slope on most of zone 1, armored one of the gully crossings on 1, and pinned a few corners.

Baba, CC and a few others started touchup like deberming, smoothing and pinning on zone 4 and I took a crew through zone 2 doing the same.

Looks like we just have a bit more to do on 2 and 4, then we finish off the armored sections of zone 1 and 3 and we're done.

If we keep getting a good turnout, I think we'll make it by grand opening.

Thanks to all that showed up for Saturday. Hope to see you Wednesday.

Wheels

05-14-2005, 05:45 PM

Trail work update - 5:14:05:

We had 12 workers show up today for a wet work session, it rained - but luckily not too hard.

We armored the base of the first turn in zone 7 and filled a sink-hole that opened up just after it in the humps. We rip-rapped a couple of armors in zone 5.

We also started on the main entrance at 55, getting it ready for the flag-stone paving, trimming back the trees at the base of the hill, and opened the beginner connector at the top of the hill. Thanks to Paul for his landscaping skills and advice, I think you've saved us a lot of work.

We have final approval from the MPRB for the last 3 projects we have left to do - the armor or the climb in zone 1, the armor of the descent on south zone 3, and the main entrance at the S. zone 3 near 55. I just have to get the materials delivered now, and I think we're going to have to raise a few more dollars to cover the cost.

We're going to plan a long saturday, probably next weekend to try to hammer out the flag stoning of the main entrance on 55. It's going to be a big job, we have to remove the sod, dig down 10", lay in 4" of gravel, and move the leftover dirt uphill to raise the southbound trail on zone 1. If you have landscape skills (retaining walls, paving, etc) - please plan on coming out for this session.

We'll need some wheelbarrows and a lot of muscle to get this done. We'll keep you posted on the final schedule - but it looks like we'll barely make the deadline if we get some help and put the coal to it.

manual63

05-15-2005, 12:57 PM

Working in the rain was not nearly as bad as I expected. I guess I would rather work in these conditions than work in 80 or 90 degree heat. The ground is nice and soft...especially for the armoring.

I helped do the armoring before the jump and rollers. Tom did the planning and layout of the rocks. I hope this section turns out much better than how it was, we didn't get a chance to ride anything we worked on because of the rain. Any riders...please feel free to comment so we can make adjustments if needed.

Wheels

05-19-2005, 10:37 AM

Hi All,

As I mentioned previously, the city has taken notice of the illegal trail building in the parks. On my walk through of the pilot project with the MPRB on friday is was communicated to me that there are going to be changes in the way that the city deals with this issue in the future.

From here on out, the city will be enforcing the issue with tickets and fines for those people responsible for illegal trail building (technically - building without a permit). Here is the text from the MPRB website:

"Individuals constructing trail without a construction permit can be fined up to $1000.00 per incident. Furthermore, this activity continues to foster the negative sediments that have led to banning off-road cycling from areas of the park system."

The ticket is a petty misdemeanor.

Furthermore, the MPRB has asked MOCA to provide the labor for deconstruction of illegally built trail. At the MOCA board meeting last night we voted on this issue and decided to provide the labor at MPRB request when or if we have resources available - but that we would ask the city to provide this service themselves if possible.

We will at no time close trail outside of the pilot project on our own initiative.

Just to demonstrate how serious the city is about this issue, we ourselves were stopped by the Park Police last saturday and asked for our building permit (which I didn't have on me - doh!!). So, unless you feel it's worth spending your time and effort to build something that will likely be torn down, you're OK with creating a negative image for those trying to build legally, and have an extra $1000 to lose - I would recommend you think twice about building in the Minneapolis Parks.

On a similar note - I was told last friday that Brownie lake will be closed and anyone caught riding will be ticketed. This is a result of the continued degradation of the hillside, and the fact that the Park Board Commissioner for this area has taken a personal interest in the problem.

But wait (here's the good news) - After speaking with the Parks Supervisor about this, I was able to convince him to keep it open. There's a catch though, we have to come together as a community and fix the problem areas.

This isn't an official sanctioning of the trails, but a request by the city for MOCA to come up with a plan to reroute and reclaim the eroded areas. We discussed this as well last night at the Board meeting and agreed to take on the repairs.

This will likely lead to MOCA gaining legal trail building in this area for 2006 (pending success of the pilot program) with permanent official status of the area.

This is great way for us to get our foot in the door and prove that we can be proactive about the issues facing the Brownie trails. The bottom line is, we either do something - or we lose it altogether, and nobody wants that.

MOCA requests that anyone with ideas or input on the fixes come forward and give us a hand in planning and performing the necessary changes.

manual63

05-19-2005, 10:48 AM

On a similar note - I was told last friday that Brownie lake will be closed and anyone caught riding will be ticketed. This is a result of the continued degradation of the hillside, and the fact that the Park Board Commissioner for this area has taken a personal interest in the problem.

But wait (here's the good news) - After speaking with the Parks Supervisor about this, I was able to convince him to keep it open. There's a catch though, we have to come together as a community and fix the problem areas.

This isn't an official sanctioning of the trails, but a request by the city for MOCA to come up with a plan to reroute and reclaim the eroded areas. We discussed this as well last night at the Board meeting and agreed to take on the repairs.

This will likely lead to MOCA gaining legal trail building in this area for 2006 (pending success of the pilot program) with permanent official status of the area.

This is great way for us to get our foot in the door and prove that we can be proactive about the issues facing the Brownie trails. The bottom line is, we either do something - or we lose it altogether, and nobody wants that.

MOCA requests that anyone with ideas or input on the fixes come forward and give us a hand in planning and performing the necessary changes.

On this issue, I brought up my concerns with Shawn about how the tight turns up and down the hills were the fun parts. Those are also the erroded parts. To make the MPRP happy the immediate changes will most likely take away these fun areas....it just has to be done. My concern and thus kinda the reason I want to get involved, is that the fun stuff goes away. There are ways to get some of it back, but it's going to take time and a lot of work. These sections need to be sustainable and to do that, you can't just make a fall line trail, it has to be carefully thought out and constructed.

I want to make this very clear and also make it clear that those of you out there that want to have the fun stuff need to get involved and most likely that means intensive labor too. You can post here all you want about how MORC is dumbing down the trails, but unless you get involved and help us make fun trails for everyone, that are also sustainable, don't even bother to post your complaint.

Please be patient. Trust me, I want the fun technical stuff too!

homebrewbiker

05-19-2005, 10:54 AM

This is great news. As a Minneapolis resident, it will be fantastic to have more sanctioned trail at my door step. I haven't had enough free time to get to trail school (but I think I should be able to make it if there is an opportunity in the Fall), but I am always willing to do what I can to help out.

Wheels

05-19-2005, 10:56 AM

Exactly as Shad says,

Right now - the only way we can fix things is to remove the most extreme features. The only way to maintain them is to armor them, which takes labor, money, and authorization.

If we do get the area as an official part of the system, we'll look for the money and take our time to plan it out to be similar to the existing trail. We had to move quicker in the pilot project, but the armoring we have done so far has demonstrated to the MPRB that it can be done.

First we build trust, then we build trail.

phaberman1

05-19-2005, 01:03 PM

I am confused. Is Brownie closed now until repairs can be made, or will the area remain open until repairs can be made. Please clarify, if possible.

Wheels

05-19-2005, 01:41 PM

I am confused. Is Brownie closed now until repairs can be made, or will the area remain open until repairs can be made. Please clarify, if possible.

Hi Paul,

I was saying that it was to be closed, MOCA has arranged to keep it open - it will remain open until we are able to make repairs.

I know a lot of riders who have quit riding there out of respect for the situation - it would be very helpful to our efforts if people would stop riding it until we fix it.

Now the "don't tell me where to ride crowd" can add their two cents.

Magic

05-19-2005, 01:56 PM

Way to go Paul, shaking things up again.

Trevize1138

05-19-2005, 03:27 PM

Now the "don't tell me where to ride crowd" can add their two cents.

Shawn,

Don't tell me how to ride.

Wheels

05-19-2005, 04:30 PM

Shawn,

Don't tell me how to ride.

That was only 1¢ worth :) You still have a 1¢ credit.

But really, (and I don't think anyone can stir this pot) - I think it's important for everyone to think about what we can do to patch up Brownie. It's a pretty good carrot they've offered us here, but I think we should speak as a community and not just what MOCA thinks we should do.

It's time we come together as a community of riders and do our best to keep everyone's ideas and concerns in the mix. When it all comes down, it's up to the city as to what we get and what's off limits.

Pete, Erik and I are meeting with the Eloise Butler community group tonight to begin what I hope will be a good relationship that allows us to share space with them, and work towards opening up some part of the 394 to Glenwood area of the park for future use. It's so important right now that we're making the right moves and making sure that we're seen as consientous of our impact on the parks, consider other users, and repair some of the damage we've created over the years.

As an example of how we've had a positive impact through our actions, the MPRB wants to use our trail building methods as a model for how walking and running trails are created in the parks system. Our hard work is paying off, and we're changing perceptions. But the most important thing is that we're seen as a cohesive community that takes care of itself without creating more problems than we solve.

Some may say that the city has fallen short in some of their other efforts, or take a stand that they don't want to work with the establishment at any level, but I'd like to think we can take the higher ground and lead the way - and as a result get exactly what we want, and have a great system to pass on to future riders.

On Brownie - we're not too amped about taking on more work, but if it means keeping a trail open we'll figure out a way to do it. To be frank, we're all a bit burned out, so we plan on taking all of June off from any work. We'll get going again in July, so we have plenty of time to figure out what to with Brownie, and get everyone's input on what's acceptable.

FSSS

05-19-2005, 05:00 PM

To be frank, we're all a bit burned out, so we plan on taking all of June off from any work. We'll get going again in July...

Let me know if you need anything done in June - the 60+ hour workweeks end on June 10th... and then I'll be lookin' to work in the woods!!

Wheels

05-20-2005, 07:12 AM

So - Pete, Erik, and I attended a meeting last night with the MPRB Environmentalists, the Friends of Eloise Butler, representatives from the Loppet, and concerned citizens to discuss the current and future user status of the 394 to Glenwood area of Theo Wirth park.

About 30 people in attendance - we did a walk around of the perimeter of the Gardens and discussed a variety of issues. The biggest issue was the clearing and placement of the Loppet track. It was my first look at the project, and I have to say it wasn't done with the kind of attention to environmental sustainability that we've applied to our trails. It's a 14 foot wide clear cut that goes straight up and down the fall line, many roots exposed, and no back slope. It's understandable that the locals are peeved.

I think it's going to make any effort by MOCA to establish trails in this area an uphill effort, but I think we were able to distinguish ourselves a bit and demonstrate to those in attendance that our methods are much more comprehensive and sustainable.

Many different issues were raised, some more legitimate and fact-founded than others. But the main thing I heard loud and clear is that those in attendance don't want bikes anywhere in the park.

The opinions ranged from "there's room for bikes somewhere" to "if you want to ride bikes, you should drive to some place outside the city". It's going to be interesting, but I think we'll end up with a compromise that allows us to use some part of the park for biking. Ultimately, it's up to the city and the recommendation of the environmentalist, but the local community is going to carry a lot of weight on the issue.

The best thing we can do right now is be disciplined about not riding in this area and letting others in our community know that they are going to make it harder for us if they ignore the signs and agitate the local community. Let's get the word our and show them that we can police ourselves and respect the current "no biking" status. They're biggest gripe is user conflict, so let's work on reducing it and things will go smoother.

There are two more meetings scheduled over the next three weeks, Pete will attend the next one on behalf of MOCA as it falls on a work night.

MOCA will wait to hear the recommendation of the environmentalist and the MPRB before we take a position on these issues, and will discuss our needs for shared space within our own community before we submit any recommendations or requests for future trail placement.

Let's make sure we all get on the same page here and get some of this great terrain back into the trail system. It's a good opportunity, we just need to work together to make it happen.

FSSS

05-22-2005, 10:17 PM

This is from the Theo Trail Conditions thread (seemed to fit here better).

Maybe elimination of this section would be appropriate. After the berm do a slow left and exit on the north fork of the "Y" closer to the golf course. Try to incorporate as much of the ridge line as possible.

Is it the crappy weather or does the lower part of zone 5 just have inherently persistent problems?

It is sad to lose trail, but I would say do it if it would mean I can ride that section more often. Zone 5 is one of my favorite sections of trail, and it sucks to have to skip it because the ending is too greasy. I didn't work much on the lower part of 5 - is there just a lot of clay there??

A lot of other riders may not have the knowledge (or restraint) to skip this section.

From what I've seen it seems to get a bit greasy below the curb drop, but not nearly as bad as below the berm.

I'd hate to lose anything uptrail of the berm!!

Wheels

05-22-2005, 10:35 PM

Yep - thanks Pete - I was just about to do the same.

Let's just whip it into shape, and hope it doesn't rain more. We could also do a tweak to the layout to take care of the problem, basically we make a connector and cut out the stuff that's staying wet.

More work to do...

More thoughts? Weigh in and you get the right to complain about it later. :D

Wheels

05-22-2005, 11:12 PM

Alright, we have some issues.

1. We're running out of time, and the rain has delayed us on what was already a tight schedule for getting the remainder of the work done before the cut off date June 4th. 12 days away!

June 4, we're done building for three months. We won't be allowed to do any more work for 3 months while the evaluation is being performed. Just trimming and general maintenance, that's it.

We're past being scared about it, we're just hammering away the best we can - but we need help!

We have only 6 more trail work session left, so it's time for all of you've that have been saying that you would come out to step up and give us a hand to finish things off. Even if you've never been out before, come! It's chaos sometimes, but hey - 6 sessions left, it's going to be chaos no matter what.

Step up, please help relieve some Trail Boss burnout!

We'll be out Monday (23) and Wednesday (25) at 5:00 and this Labor Day weekend, Saturday(28) and Sunday (29) - then Wednesday (1) the following week. Please pick and day or two and come out.

Issue #2: Illegally built trails.

I asked John to close the thread on this issue. We're done talking about it in that context. The MPRB has spoken, and we work with them - not against them.

My ride of the trails tonight simply solidified my stance on the issue.

A few weeks ago I posted an idea for how to build an IMBA compliant gap jump - and what do I see tonight in Glenwood? An IMBA compliant gap jump! It looks good, just like I thought it would work. Only one problem, what do think it is? Come on guys!

Nice job, but right idea, wrong place. You could have came out to give us a hand just 500 yards down the road and not pissed anyone off, and you would have been one step closer to having a whole series of those things in zone 6.

If you see this jump, don't tear it down. I want to show it to the MPRB so they know what we're talking about in the future. They'll let us know what they want to do about it.

Issue #3:

Did I mention we need help?

homebrewbiker

05-22-2005, 11:26 PM

We have only 6 more trail work session left, so it's time for all of you've that have been saying that you would come out to step up and give us a hand to finish things off. Even if you've never been out before, come! It's chaos sometimes, but hey - 6 sessions left, it's going to be chaos no matter what.

Step up, please help relieve some Trail Boss burnout!

We'll be out Monday (23) and Wednesday (25) at 5:00 and this Labor Day weekend, Saturday(28) and Sunday (29) - then Wednesday (1) the following week. Please pick and day or two and come out.

I was planning to ride on Monday but I'll come out and help instead. I won't be able to make it this weekend, so I'll do what I can to lend a hand this week.

If you see this jump, don't tear it down. I want to show it to the MPRB so they know what we're talking about in the future. They'll let us know what they want to do about it.

I think it would be good to bring this up at trailwork sessions. I think there is an idea out there that the illegal stuff should be torn down. It would be good to get everyone on the same page.

Wheels

05-22-2005, 11:31 PM

I was planning to ride on Monday but I'll come out and help instead. I won't be able to make it this weekend, so I'll do what I can to lend a hand this week.

Sweet! One down...

I think it would be good to bring this up at trailwork sessions. I think there is an idea out there that the illegal stuff should be torn down. It would be good to get everyone on the same page.

Agreed. If we expect others to follow the law, we need to do the same. This is in the hands of the MPRB now - so let's call a truce.

FSSS

05-23-2005, 12:49 AM

June 4, we're done building for three months. We won't be allowed to do any more work for 3 months while the evaluation is being performed. Just trimming and general maintenance, that's it.

General Maintenance?

How much will they let us do (deberming where needed, fixing backslope, or fixing outslope of tread)??

Is fixing/re-working armored sections legit?

Although I can understand why the MPRB would want all trailwork to stop, even maintenance - so they can see how the trails would hold up if MOCA/MORC no longer existed.

manual63

05-23-2005, 08:02 AM

Gap jump eh? Can I go show the MPRB how to ride it?

:kiss:

CookieMonster

05-23-2005, 08:04 AM

I was just reading what you guys had posted and had a thought or idea for zone 5 when its wet and too greasy to ride. Perhaps some sort of sign could be posted for riders out by zone 5 letting them know or asking them to not ride there after it has rained or when its still too greasy to ride? Or does that have to be done by MPRB?

Earthman

05-23-2005, 11:01 AM

i was thinking about posting sharp spikes after it rains they might work better then the signs

Trevize1138

05-23-2005, 12:06 PM

The real solution may be some more reworking of Zone 5, but I'm not sure. I'm a novice still at a lot of trail building and how to make stuff IMBA compliant, but I know Uno Rigio, the former trail steward, had some recommendations for raising the trail up the hill in a few spots to let it dry out a bit faster. That could be at least one solution.

It's not too bad, it just dries out slower than the rest of the trail. We'll have to see what the current trail designers (Shawn Sheely & Co.) think.

But, of course, it goes without saying that we'll all try to avoid that section when it's still wet (as with all the other sections).

I was just reading what you guys had posted and had a thought or idea for zone 5 when its wet and too greasy to ride. Perhaps some sort of sign could be posted for riders out by zone 5 letting them know or asking them to not ride there after it has rained or when its still too greasy to ride? Or does that have to be done by MPRB?

Kosk

05-23-2005, 12:20 PM

I think ya'll should just abandon all that stupid high maintainance single track, berms, and rock features, and instead, just bomb down the gravel access road to the left. WAY more fun!! :crazy: ...............just kidding.

Or find some old-growth cedar and reroute everything in the bottom half of zone 5 up off the ground.....shore style.....oops didn't mean to open that can of worms.....cool idea, but not practical, I know....

I'm waiting for someone to ride thru zone 3a and think that the new "log qualifier" is an "illegal FR stunt" built by some "hooligans" and proceed to tear them out...haha, that would be funny!!

Wheels

05-23-2005, 01:24 PM

but I know Uno Rigio, the former trail steward, had some recommendations for raising the trail up the hill in a few spots to let it dry out a bit faster. That could be at least one solution.

I was thinking the same thing - Erik and I moved the trail uphill towards the end just before we opened it last fall, and that part is staying dry. It will cut out a little bit of trail, but that's not so bad.

I'm heading out early today - around 3:00 if anyone wants to join me. I'll be in 5 or 1. I'll leave my truck unlocked if you want to grab tools.

alberts

05-23-2005, 09:29 PM

Wheels-"A few weeks ago I posted an idea for how to build an IMBA compliant gap jump - and what do I see tonight in Glenwood? An IMBA compliant gap jump! It looks good, just like I thought it would work. Only one problem, what do think it is? Come on guys!"

What jump are you talking about? Is it the hip jump after the two berms because if it is, that jump is no where near the quality of the jump that was built right above it, the one that caused all the complantiants that lead to the destruction of it. It was built to IMBA standards and everything.

By now you are all most likely aware that it was me and quinnsoccer27 who built these jumps and maybe now you realize we know what we are doing and that we are not some teenage punks building sketchy, crappy stunts. We are both aware of IMBA trail building standards and abide by them as much as we can.

So now maybe the next time we come to trail work you might accually ask us for imput on freeride related stuff instead of handing us a shovel and simply telling us to dig. Everybody keeps telling us to get involved and go out to trail work and we did but when we get there nobody takes us seriously and that is why we have stopped coming and went back to building illegal stunts.We know how to build stunts and we build them well. Maybe now you will take us seriuosly and treat us with a decent amount of respect.

Next time you guys plan on adding some jumps, gaps or otherwise to the legit trails around the metro area post something up and I am sure me and Quinnsoccer would be more the willing to come out and help.

Wheels

05-23-2005, 10:21 PM

What jump are you talking about? Is it the hip jump after the two berms because if it is, that jump is no where near the quality of the jump that was built right above it, the one that caused all the complantiants that lead to the destruction of it. It was built to IMBA standards and everything.

By now you are all most likely aware that it was me and quinnsoccer27 who built these jumps and maybe now you realize we know what we are doing and that we are not some teenage punks building sketchy, crappy stunts. We are both aware of IMBA trail building standards and abide by them as much as we can.

So now maybe the next time we come to trail work you might accually ask us for imput on freeride related stuff instead of handing us a shovel and simply telling us to dig. Everybody keeps telling us to get involved and go out to trail work and we did but when we get there nobody takes us seriously and that is why we have stopped coming and went back to building illegal stunts.We know how to build stunts and we build them well. Maybe now you will take us seriuosly and treat us with a decent amount of respect.

Next time you guys plan on adding some jumps, gaps or otherwise to the legit trails