Trail Discussion - Theodore Wirth

[Wiley100]

I was wondering if anyone has cheked Theo out yet?
I am hoping to get a ride in before the next round of storms.

[JRHeadhunter]

Trail folks
Thanks for opening up Sunday afternoon, it was softer than normal but everyone seemed to take care of the trail today.
Thanks for opening up when it was a little soft.

[mara]

If you need to check out the new section, please do so by foot only and by following existing paths. The section is *closed* to bikes.

This will give the new tread time to firm up, keep your bike karma good by staying off a closed trail, and most importantly keep the singletrack skinny and closed in. When everyone plows their own path through the woods to check things out, our tight singletrack gets wide and boring pretty fast.

Please be patient and help out if you can. The end of the project is in sight.

[k1rider]

Any chance the trail crew can chop that darn log sitting across the beginning of the difficult spur down this coming Wednesday. While I've enjoy practicing my limbo skills this summer, the tree has sunk to a point where I now have to dismount because I'm physically not able to get under that branch (6' 3") even when sans a Camelbak. From talking with other riders I'm not the only one having to walk this tree at this point in the season.

Just a humble way to start your lap that kills the flow right out of the gate.

Thanks for any help!

[mara]

Any chance the trail crew can chop that darn log sitting across the beginning of the difficult spur down this coming Wednesday.

We don't have trailwork on the second Wednesday of the month so we can concentrate our attention on the MOCA meeting (7pm @ Kenwood Community Center -- all are welcome!)

Instead, we stopped by this morning and took it out with extreme prejudice in the hopes that your laps will once again start out with good mojo! :D

[k1rider]

We don't have trailwork on the second Wednesday of the month so we can concentrate our attention on the MOCA meeting (7pm @ Kenwood Community Center -- all are welcome!)

Instead, we stopped by this morning and took it out with extreme prejudice in the hopes that your laps will once again start out with good mojo! :D

Extremely nice of you Mara. Thanks!

BTW nice armoring of the trail with the logs on those habitual wet spots earlier this summer.

[Don Youngdahl]

.........................BTW nice armoring of the trail with the logs on those habitual wet spots earlier this summer.

I particularily liked the logs layed lengthwise to the trail. I used to build dirt bike bridges that way, tied together with 3 inch straps of heavy conveyor belt.

[GodOfMildew]

Any word on how it's drying out?

[mara]

Any word on how it's drying out?

It was sort of drying but got hit hard by rain around lunch. Chuck is on his way to check it out and will post up conditions shortly.

[ouijal]

So no update in the conditions thread means Theo wasnt opened last night @ trail work or yet this morning? Looks like the only closed trail in the metro.

[mara]

Theo was checked last night and the conditions were updated. It was still significantly wet, slimy, and greasy so we were unable to open. The trouble spots were not isolated to the low or known problem areas.

It's not drying out like it has in the past this season. :hit:

We'll check again no later than after work today.

[ouijal]

thanks for the update. just thought I would ask before I bike out there.

[mara]

thanks for the update. just thought I would ask before I bike out there.

No problem. I hope we can tell you the trail is open soon.

[jitterjepp]

Checking it now

[happybiker]

I have to say that I went to ride theo on Wednesday and ran into the trail guys. they said that the trails were still to wet to ride and that there was standing water all over on the trail. so respecting this my friend and I went and rode another spot. I then put my bike in my car and walked the trail. I found not standiong water not reason for the trail to stay closed......

This is terriable I dont know what kind of people are trying to maintain the trails when there is nothing that is wrong with them..... the trail would have been great it would have been tacky and fast but these guys close the trail???? I mean come on get real there a time and a place for tree hugging but lets be real here people want to ride and these trails need to be open rather then closed......

[gopherhockey]

I have to say that I went to ride theo on Wednesday and ran into the trail guys. they said that the trails were still to wet to ride and that there was standing water all over on the trail. so respecting this my friend and I went and rode another spot. I then put my bike in my car and walked the trail. I found not standiong water not reason for the trail to stay closed......

This is terriable I dont know what kind of people are trying to maintain the trails when there is nothing that is wrong with them..... the trail would have been great it would have been tacky and fast but these guys close the trail???? I mean come on get real there a time and a place for tree hugging but lets be real here people want to ride and these trails need to be open rather then closed......

Is standing water your definition of wet? Sorry but my guess is you don't understand what wet means, or at what level trail damage can happen.

Rather than complaining how about asking. Our Theo volunteers work really hard and deserve a lot of thanks. I'm sure they would be happy to help educate.

Thanks for not riding that day and for speaking up rather than just ignoring it the next time. As a group we all need to work together even if we don't quite agree.

Don't forget...the volunteers want to ride the trail just as bad as everyone else. If a trail can be ridden you can be sure they aren't going to keep it closed for no good reason.

[Greendog]

so respecting this my friend and I went and rode another spot....

First of all, thank you for not riding the trail when the gates were closed, but there were still several puddles on the trail. I agree that most of the trail was tacky, but if we would have let people ride more damage would have been done to the trail. Several of the area we tried to work on that highroad were too wet.


This is terriable I dont know what kind of people are trying to maintain the trails when there is nothing that is wrong with them..... the trail would have been great it would have been tacky and fast but these guys close the trail???? I mean come on get real there a time and a place for tree hugging but lets be real here people want to ride and these trails need to be open rather then closed......

Secondly. Your welcome, from all the volunteer trailworkers who have put hundreds of hour into the trail in the last few weeks, during 90+ degree weather. Besides opening a new section of trail, we have had to fix several areas were people rode when the trail was wet. Not to mention all the hours spent playing politics with the land managers to keep the trail open and hopefully get more trail.

We would welcome your help some time during a trail work session. We could show you al the work that goes into keeping the trail open.

[happybiker]

First of all, thank you for not riding the trail when the gates were closed, but there were still several puddles on the trail. I agree that most of the trail was tacky, but if we would have let people ride more damage would have been done to the trail. Several of the area we tried to work on that highroad were too wet.



Secondly. Your welcome, from all the volunteer trailworkers who have put hundreds of hour into the trail in the last few weeks, during 90+ degree weather. Besides opening a new section of trail, we have had to fix several areas were people rode when the trail was wet. Not to mention all the hours spent playing politics with the land managers to keep the trail open and hopefully get more trail.

We would welcome your help some time during a trail work session. We could show you al the work that goes into keeping the trail open.


I do say THANK YOU to all the volunteers who are out there busting there butts to get these trails in the conditions they are in. Its difficult to get to a trail that could be open and that people who do respect the trails know that when riding to avoid the wet areas rather then go straight through them. there to many cooks in the kitchen dictating when and why the trails should be open or closed.

I again give more credit to the people who built these trails for all to enjoy. I will never take that for granted.

[happybiker]

[QUOTE=gopherhockey;428757]Is standing water your definition of wet? Sorry but my guess is you don't understand what wet means, or at what level trail damage can happen.

Rather than complaining how about asking. Our Theo volunteers work really hard and deserve a lot of thanks. I'm sure they would be happy to help educate.

Thanks for not riding that day and for speaking up rather than just ignoring it the next time. As a group we all need to work together even if we don't quite agree.

Don't forget...the volunteers want to ride the trail just as bad as everyone else. If a trail can be ridden you can be sure they aren't going to keep it closed for no good reason.

Actually I do understand and on that matter I do know the effects of trail damage that can happen. .

[Ol Dirty Biker]

New section is a blast! Thanks to all involved in making it exist!

[stoneage]

Cleared the skinny on the third try. I thought it was going to go the other way. The hardest part is the rock steps on the exit. 2-1 on the SS is hard to get over the 4th and 5th rock. Will there be a B line for the skinny?

[Pandl]

respect the trails know that when riding to avoid the wet areas rather then go straight through them

When you do get to ride a trail that has puddles, you are supposed to ride directly thru the puddle, instead of going around the puddle. That makes the trail wider, and the trail is supposed to be singletrack. Fixing the ridden thru puddle is easier than fixing a widened trail.

[Greendog]

Cleared the skinny on the third try. I thought it was going to go the other way. The hardest part is the rock steps on the exit. 2-1 on the SS is hard to get over the 4th and 5th rock. Will there be a B line for the skinny?

It's good to hear that the skinny can be ridden. The new section was built so most people would not be able to clear it the first time. The skinny section was kept close to the ground so more people would attempt it. We are going to allow a natural ride around to form since the area will get trampled anyway.

I hope everyone enjoys it.

[agleck7]

Is the new section connected to the north loop?

[Greendog]

Is the new section connected to the north loop?

Yes. It is an optional loop, near the end of the north loop.

[stoneage]

Red dotted line:

[MickUZE]

Any chance trail would open tonight or tomorrow?
Its been a long time since I have been out.
A newborn can take up sometime.

uze

[RacerBoy]

It has had enough time to dry, right? The question is are the gates closed???

Someone said a new section of trail was opened at Theo. Is this true?

Anyone home?

[jitterjepp]

Unless one of us have the day off we wont be able to check it until after work.

[RacerBoy]

So the gates are closed????

[reim0039]

I was out there last night and the gates were open so I assume they still are. There is a new section open (which is much more technical than I thought it would be).

[DMonkey]

There are a few wet spots and still standing water - it rained two times on Saturday (in the AM and later at night).

Here are some examples:


http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af13/DirkDuane/Theo%20Mud%2007_25_11/011.jpg

http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af13/DirkDuane/Theo%20Mud%2007_25_11/010.jpg

http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af13/DirkDuane/Theo%20Mud%2007_25_11/008.jpg

http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af13/DirkDuane/Theo%20Mud%2007_25_11/007.jpg


http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af13/DirkDuane/Theo%20Mud%2007_25_11/006.jpg

[Rudnicl]

How's it looking today? I'm assuming it's had a chance to try with the nice weather....was hoping to head over for a late afternoon ride.

[mara]

I'm not sure if the trail will have dried enough by this afternoon to open or not. One of us will be up there after work and will post up if conditions are favorable for an evening ride.

[jitterjepp]

I'll be up there in about an hour. I'm trying to get things bottoned up for the rain they say is coming.

[ariel223]

Any chance the trail will be open for a post-work ride?

[Greendog]

Any chance the trail will be open for a post-work ride?

We will be checking the trail out at about 5:30, and will post up then.

[GekoIQ]

anyone know if it'll be open this evening ~6pm ish?

[mara]

anyone know if it'll be open this evening ~6pm ish?

I don't know, but we will be checking the trail after work.

It was in pretty bad shape yesterday.

Poachers have really done a number on us this year. When people ride wet trails and remove tread as it sticks to their tires and bodies, the trail cups in the middle. Water settles in the cupped low area and has no way other than evaporation of getting out. With Theo being so flat, there is no opportunity to remove a berm or rebench, so unfortunately a lot of the problem areas now can only be fixed by artificially hardening the trail with either gravel or armor. We'll be working on some of these over the next several weeks.

Until then, expect the trail to take longer than normal to dry out. :hit:

[Black Schwinn]

Mara,
Thank you for taking the time to check out the trail. Your effort and time are incredibly generous. Any word if it will be open for a morning ride?

Thanks as always!
nathan

[Don Youngdahl]

................. When people ride wet trails and remove tread as it sticks to their tires and bodies, the trail cups in the middle...........
Until then, expect the trail to take longer than normal to dry out. :hit:

Sounds familiar, couldn't agree more. Isn't somebody else preaching essentially the same thing on a related subject?;)

[mara]

Any word if it will be open for a morning ride?

The trail is open and ready to ride. Please ride gently through any remaining muddy, soft. or otherwise "icky" spots. They will persist until we are able to add armor or gravel, but riding softly will help keep the bad parts from expanding into the good.

Thanks to everyone who respects the closures even though you really want to ride.

Extra thanks to the Theo trailworkers who keep the trail in optimal shape and to the core DB crew who have been running themselves ragged this year. I obviously have the big mouth of the group, but they're the ones who deserve the credit.

[drnomadz]

First off, thanks for all who put in their hard work keeping Theo in good shape. I had a thought about the problem of people riding the trail when it is wet but the gates are still open.
I was thinking that putting a sign at each entrance to the trail with just basic instructions like "If the gates are open and trail is wet, please do not ride." All of that in big block letters on one of those corrugated plastic signs stuck in the ground. I am sure they might get ripped out, but they would be cheap and they might educate a few people who have been riding when they shouldn't. I know it won't stop the people who don't care, but the others who do care but didn't know better might think twice.
I certainly know that when I have been out riding at Theo, that I have run into plenty of people who have no idea what MORC is or what the proper etiquette for mountain biking under certain trail conditions are.
Just putting a thought out there for those interested and involved. Thanks for reading.

[Greendog]

I was thinking that putting a sign at each entrance to the trail with just basic instructions.

Thanks for the suggestion. We are working on this. We need to figure out the wording and get approval from the land manager.

[reim0039]

One other thing to consider is that the trail may seem to be OK when first starting out on your ride before the wet areas tip you off that it may be too wet to ride. And by the time somebody realizes it is too wet they may already be deep into the woods and just ride the trail out because they don't know better. Unfortunately, I think that closing the gates is likely the best way to keep people off the trail when it is too wet to ride (though closing the gates doesn't always stop some people either).

[Mike P]

Nice job on the new Advanced section:D! Juli and I rode Elm Creek this afternoon and since 169 was closed, we went to Theo on our way home. I only wish we had a little more energy to play longer.

[Jack]

I took the drive up from Burnsville yesterday morning and the Expert Section was really fun. I wasn't able to clear everything but I can't wait to get back up there to try it a few more times.


Good Job!

[TheCannonWhale]

The new trail section is a huge improvement for Theo, and it has really rebuilt my enthusiasm for riding Theo. I think it would be a good idea to clear some of the more prickly bushes/dead branches from the side of the techy stuff, because I've already have so pretty bad falls that were made worse by having a sharp stick shoved into my side. Just something to take into consideration during trail work session. :)

[mara]

\ I think it would be a good idea to clear some of the more prickly bushes/dead branches from the side of the techy stuff, because I've already have so pretty bad falls that were made worse by having a sharp stick shoved into my side. :)

We'll get there. The trail was purposely left very tight with the intention of redefining the line after we watch how it rides for a while. The constructed features have cleared fall zones and/or ride-arounds, but the rest of the trail will be kept as tight as possible while still being clear for a rider on the path. We will continue to clear the corridor of intrusive brush as the line evolves.

Thanks for the feedback!

[Jack]

We'll get there. The trail was purposely left very tight with the intention of redefining the line after we watch how it rides for a while. The constructed features have cleared fall zones and/or ride-arounds, but the rest of the trail will be kept as tight as possible while still being clear for a rider on the path. We will continue to clear the corridor of intrusive brush as the line evolves.

Thanks for the feedback!

I am a sucker for the tight stuff. Reminds me of the Days of Old at Theo and at Terrace.

[Bulldog81]

Understandably, it has rained quite a bit this year. The trail has been closed since the heavy rains earlier this week with minimal threads giving us trail updates. I would expect the trail is ok to ride by now? Ignore my trail condition, I simply chose this because that is the current trail condition from 8/1. I would choose unknown if available. Please keep us informed on trail conditions, especially when it has been hot, windy, and all other conditions favoring dry trails for two days now. I expect that the usual wet spots are the issue. I am grateful for the new small section of trail, but maybe we should focus some effort on armoring the trail so it's rideable after a rain. I know poachers are to blame for some of this, but more frequent updates may prevent some poaching and take the guess work out of riding.

[Greendog]

Understandably, it has rained quite a bit this year. The trail has been closed since the heavy rains earlier this week with minimal threads giving us trail updates. I would expect the trail is ok to ride by now? Ignore my trail condition, I simply chose this because that is the current trail condition from 8/1. I would choose unknown if available. Please keep us informed on trail conditions, especially when it has been hot, windy, and all other conditions favoring dry trails for two days now. I expect that the usual wet spots are the issue. I am grateful for the new small section of trail, but maybe we should focus some effort on armoring the trail so it's rideable after a rain. I know poachers are to blame for some of this, but more frequent updates may prevent some poaching and take the guess work out of riding.

At this point the trail is still closed. Still too soft in some areas. Sorry we probably should have updated the conditions last night, but it was late but it was late when we left trail work and i'm sure it just slipped everyones mind. We will have someone out there checking today.

If it was just the normal problem spots we would have opened the trail, but there was one section that was still too soft to walk on let alone ride without causing more damage to the trail. We are fixing the problem areas as they pop up, but we are limited by the number of volunteers that show up to trail work. We would welcome your help.

Many thanks to the crew that showed up last night.

[Kingbozo]

So who takes care of the tree down across the Luce Line between the trail head and Theo Parkway? Is that a city thing?

[jitterjepp]

Tree over tar = city. Tree over ski trail = city. Tree over single track = moca.

[the-one1]

So who takes care of the tree down across the Luce Line between the trail head and Theo Parkway? Is that a city thing?

What tree? Ohh, you mean that cool obstacle nature added?

[Rick Shaw]

Rode Theo for the first time last night. Had a lot of fun, just wanted to stop by and give my props to the trail crew. You keep a clean house ;)

[reim0039]

It seems that some trees are hanging lower right on top of the final table-top. Has there been any discussion about removing some of the low branches in the final section of the trail?

[drewdiller]

Seems strange that it is August and I finally got out to Theo for the first time this year. It's in good shape! I didn't ride the new black as my buddy was feeling casual, but it looked cool from afar. Next time.

Unfortunately there were a few impolite people on the trail, can't win 'em all.

[mara]

It seems that some trees are hanging lower right on top of the final table-top. Has there been any discussion about removing some of the low branches in the final section of the trail?

We have discussed both with riders and within the trailwork group. People's views range from "they scare me -- please take them out" to "don't dumb down the trail."

Right now we're closely monitoring the situation and will take action if it seems the trail is becoming unsafe.

[reim0039]

In my dirt jumping mind I feel that I'm too close to the tree when hitting that jump (though the likely reality is that I'm probably barely leaving the ground). I hate to see any trees cut down but for me I can't help but wonder how low that tree really is when hitting that jump. I don't go nearly as fast as I would like through that section which lessens the fun. It is just my opinion and I agree with whatever the trail crew decides. I am very appreciative of the tree being removed over the small log pile in the first advanced section. Like other riders I wasn't able to get under it with a camelbak so I'm glad to be able to ride that section again.

[Don Youngdahl]

It seems that some trees are hanging lower right on top of the final table-top. Has there been any discussion about removing some of the low branches in the final section of the trail?

As an old man who doesn't do jumps, I haven't noticed that particular hazard, but I'll weigh in with my conservative comments on overhead hazards. I think we all agree that mountain biking is a sport with unavoidable hazards, and attempting to sanitize our trails to eliminate these hazards would ruin our sport. We ride and take our chances, and pay the price if we are careless or riding beyond our ability. I certainly have paid the price a time or two.

However, the prices that could be paid for misjudging or not seeing an overhead hazard are concussions, and more seriously, broken neck and spinal cord injuries that leave the rider a paraplegic. In a collision with an overhead obstacle, all of the force of that collision is transferred to the trunk through the neck, which contains the spinal cord. That's why I believe that overhead hazards have no legitimate place on any mountain bike trail. I think the severity of overhead risks trumps any desire we might have to keep these risks in our sport.

I believe that trail stewards and dirt bosses should alwarys err on the side of caution when evaluating overhead hazards. "Dumbing down the trail or not" should not be the way to look at things with evaluating ovrhead hazards. "Is or is not this a risk of the rider banging his head" should be the criteria.

Full disclosure: My riding buddy, a very skilled and fit old single track rider, banged his head on an overhead horizontal deadfall on a MORC trail, and incurred a concussion that gave him headaches for a week or two. If he were not such a mellow guy that was content to follow a slowpoke like me, he could well have been travellng much faster, at a speed that might have made his injury much worse.

[mara]

The trees are not an overhead hazard to anyone normally riding the trail. You can see the tree far in advance and it is not low enough to hit anyone unless they try to jump extraordinarily high.

The problem with this particular tree is its size and location. We would be forced under our agreement with the land manager to consult with the forester and have city people take the tree out. If we call out tree plus jump equals "hazard," there is an equal chance of the city telling us to remove the tabletop and leave the tree alone.

We want people to be able to jump as much or as little as they'd like, but in this case the solution to allowing people bigger air may cause a much bigger issue.

[JRHeadhunter]

Theo is open?

[widespot]

Theo is open?

The latest update is from Sat. morning. I'm going to go after work, I anticipate it being OK, since it has been nice and dry since then.

[Whatsmymantra?]

The north gate is still closed, has been for weeks. If you are going to control access with gates then you should open or close all the gates. What's the message you're sending now?

[jitterjepp]

The north gate is still closed, has been for weeks. If you are going to control access with gates then you should open or close all the gates. What's the message you're sending now?

All the trails have controling dirt bosses. Theo isn't exclusive for that.

The message? We're busy and have jobs. One of us had about 40 hours of volunteer time into meetings, trail work and flagging and such in the week leading op to the tdf. Others weren't far behind. The message is dont wait weeks to tell us. We're not perfect. We miss things but we also are all working very hard at getting that ten miles back.

How about you help out instead of throw dirt at us. How did it come to be that people think they can do this to a bunch of unpaid laborers who are building trail for YOU.

You wanna be in charge? Show up to meetings and then you can get the combo for the gates and make 100% sure nobody ever forgets a gate and when you do you can answer questions about "messages" from a person that waits "weeks" to notify you of a problem.

In short we probably havent had time to ride theo because we've been working at our jobs or building/fixing trail so we didn't notice it. Thats where you come in handy but "weeks" ago.

[ljf0106]

The trees are not an overhead hazard to anyone normally riding the trail. You can see the tree far in advance and it is not low enough to hit anyone unless they try to jump extraordinarily high.

The problem with this particular tree is its size and location. We would be forced under our agreement with the land manager to consult with the forester and have city people take the tree out. If we call out tree plus jump equals "hazard," there is an equal chance of the city telling us to remove the tabletop and leave the tree alone.

We want people to be able to jump as much or as little as they'd like, but in this case the solution to allowing people bigger air may cause a much bigger issue.

After buying a new bike today :), I hit Theo for the first time in a while (and it's the closest trail to where I live). I was getting some pretty good speed thru this section and was about to try and "jump" but saw the tree and remembered it from before (it actually seems to have gotten a little lower). If it can't be removed, which is understandable and might pose a problem, would it be possible to post a sign in that area saying "Caution: Low Trees" or something? It is a huge temptation to fly through that section and jump the tabletop...would be a bummer if someone not familiar with the trail did so and got injured either by hitting the tree/branches or freaking out. Of course injuries are an inherent risk to off road biking, but an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. (And, no, I wouldn't advocate for "caution" signs being posted for every obstacle on trails that pose a risk).

[jitterjepp]

The Golden Valley gate is now open again. Please, if you are part of this community and are about keeping things possitive dont wait "weeks" to notify us of a problem. As a rider and a person in this community you also share the responsibility of making sure we keep and maintain our trails. This means notify us as soon as possible. It's not always all on us. You share an equal part in this as a member of the cycling community.

[gordanfreeman]

Heads up, there appears to be a new tree down immediately after the golden valley trail head. It fell across the trail just over shoulder/head height at an angle. It is navigable, but easily could clothesline a taller or unsuspecting rider.

[mara]

Heads up, there appears to be a new tree down immediately after the golden valley trail head. It fell across the trail just over shoulder/head height at an angle. It is navigable, but easily could clothesline a taller or unsuspecting rider.

Thanks for the warning. We'll try to get this out tonight or tomorrow.

If you're a Theo trailworker and interested in helping identify a very general potential trail corridor, we'll be meeting at the northwest corner of Glenwood and TWP at five o'clock. Be prepared for a lot of talking, standing around, and crawling over/under/around/through brush and trees.

[GodOfMildew]

That's today?


Thanks for the warning. We'll try to get this out tonight or tomorrow.

If you're a Theo trailworker and interested in helping identify a very general potential trail corridor, we'll be meeting at the northwest corner of Glenwood and TWP at five o'clock. Be prepared for a lot of talking, standing around, and crawling over/under/around/through brush and trees.

[stoneage]

"potential trail corridor"
is this the bog area or Glenwood to 55?

[mara]

That's today?

Tomorrow during normal trailwork hours. Bad me -- things that make sense in my head do not necessarily do so on the screen.

[mara]

"potential trail corridor"
is this the bog area or Glenwood to 55?

The west side of TWP between Glenwood and 55. The bog is still very off limits, although we would eventually like to see that change.

[GodOfMildew]

Shoot, I've got another ride going. I'd do a similar thing Sunday or next week, though.


Tomorrow during normal trailwork hours. Bad me -- things that make sense in my head do not necessarily do so on the screen.

[mara]

Shoot, I've got another ride going. I'd do a similar thing Sunday or next week, though.

Sounds good - we'll post them up!

[agleck7]

Is there trail work tonight too?

[mara]

Is there trail work tonight too?

Nope -- we're dedicating this week to planning.

We'll be announcing maintenance trailwork sessions as needed for the rest of the year, but will be emphasizing corridor selection as a priority while we wait for things to fall into place to start rock work on section six north.

[agleck7]

Rats -- tonight was going to be my virgin trailwork session.

[mara]

Rats -- tonight was going to be my virgin trailwork session.

We'll get you eventually. ;) Thanks for wanting to come out!

[mara]

The tree after the north end entry has been trimmed back but not removed. Riders should be able to navigate the section safely although with a bit more wiggle than previously.

The tree is currently stable and makes a nice trail addition. We will be monitoring the situation and when things eventually start to sag we'll have forestry remove it entirely. Please let us know if you see any changes before we do.

Edit: Mad props to Jeremy, Chuck and Steef for their heroic burr acquisition efforts!

[mara]

We'll be flagging again this Wednesday starting at five -- DBs and Theo trailworkers, please come out to join in the fun.

Burr-resistent clothing, long pants, and clothes that aren't your favorite are strongly recommended. Be ready to stand around figuring things out and maneuver through some fairly thick places. Meet at the northwest corner of TWP and Glenwood at five. We'll be in the woods until dusk-ish.

There will be no "regular" trailwork session this week or next due to flagging and the MOCA meeting, respectively.

[GodOfMildew]

We'll be flagging again this Wednesday starting at five -- DBs and Theo trailworkers, please come out to join in the fun.

Burr-resistent clothing, long pants, and clothes that aren't your favorite are strongly recommended. Be ready to stand around figuring things out and maneuver through some fairly thick places. Meet at the northwest corner of TWP and Glenwood at five. We'll be in the woods until dusk-ish.


I'll be there.

[ljf0106]

Heads up for anyone planning to go to Theo on Sat 9/10/11. There is an Urban Trail Run taking place there from 9-1. It appears some of the off road trails will be used. I was out there today and there are some course markings thru out the trail(s) and various surrounding areas.

[mara]

Unless we get a whole lot more rain than forecast, the soil will again be too dry for our trailwork plans. If that changes, we'll post up a last-minute trailwork announcement.

Without rain, we'll be flagging again this week. Theo regulars and other DBs would be a most welcome addition. Wear clothes you don't like -- it's burrific out there.

[GodOfMildew]

There's a rather large tree "down" just up the hill from the second luce line crossing. It's currently hanging on to a neighboring tree with a couple small limbs to stay upright, but I feel like it won't last long and should be removed.

[mara]

Thanks, Max. We'll get it gone as soon as possible.

[tacker]

I feel like I must be missing some existing discussion of this, but I looked through this and other threads and saw no reference to the low-hanging tree over the jump at the end of the north loop. Are there plans to cut that down? I'm pretty sure I would catch it right in the chest if I got the wheels off the ground there...

[mara]

I feel like I must be missing some existing discussion of this, but I looked through this and other threads and saw no reference to the low-hanging tree over the jump at the end of the north loop. Are there plans to cut that down? I'm pretty sure I would catch it right in the chest if I got the wheels off the ground there...


The trees are not an overhead hazard to anyone normally riding the trail. You can see the tree far in advance and it is not low enough to hit anyone unless they try to jump extraordinarily high.

The problem with this particular tree is its size and location. We would be forced under our agreement with the land manager to consult with the forester and have city people take the tree out. If we call out tree plus jump equals "hazard," there is an equal chance of the city telling us to remove the tabletop and leave the tree alone.

We want people to be able to jump as much or as little as they'd like, but in this case the solution to allowing people bigger air may cause a much bigger issue.

We're unfortunately stuck between a rock and a hard place on this one. Since the tree is visible far enough in advance to allow riders to choose rolling rather than jumping, we are trying to preserve the jump for the future. The foresters will remove the tree when it falls low enough to impede a rider with tires on dirt. It is not a good situation and we know this, but it is the one we think will have the best long term results.

[tacker]

We're unfortunately stuck between a rock and a hard place on this one. Since the tree is visible far enough in advance to allow riders to choose rolling rather than jumping, we are trying to preserve the jump for the future. The foresters will remove the tree when it falls low enough to impede a rider with tires on dirt. It is not a good situation and we know this, but it is the one we think will have the best long term results.

See! I knew I was missing it! Thanks for the info. I'll keep ducking.

[Don Youngdahl]

We're unfortunately stuck between a rock and a hard place on this one. Since the tree is visible far enough in advance to allow riders to choose rolling rather than jumping, we are trying to preserve the jump for the future. The foresters will remove the tree when it falls low enough to impede a rider with tires on dirt. It is not a good situation and we know this, but it is the one we think will have the best long term results.

Surely those foresters must realize that a tree leaning at that low an angle is a goner anyway. The next super-wet spell will likely put it down the rest of the way. I believe it's dropped a foot or two since I first noticed it about a month ago. If the foresters showed it to the park department risk management experts, I bet it would come out right away.

Having vented those thoughts, this is not a knock on Mara and her efforts. Dealing with government folks can be very frustrating, :banghead:and we need more people like Mara who are willing to tackle this non-fun aspect of trail stewardship.

[mara]

Surely those foresters must realize that a tree leaning at that low an angle is a goner anyway. The next super-wet spell will likely put it down the rest of the way.

Some fights are not necessarily worth winning when you consider the potential cost. Like you say, this should become a non-issue shortly, especially with Minnesota's history of random fall wind/rain/snow. For once crappy weather might actually work in our favor.

Until then, thanks to everyone for keeping their tires on the dirt. We know you want to jump rather than roll and we'll get that back for you as soon as possible.

[Don Youngdahl]

................................ We know you want to jump rather than roll ....................................... Not his old man.:D I'd roll it if was a 6 inch jump with no overhead trees and a perfectly configured landing area.

[mara]

Not his old man.:D I'd roll it if was a 6 inch jump with no overhead trees and a perfectly configured landing area.

That makes two of us. When my tires leave the dirt it usually means I'm in the process of falling.

[mara]

Thanks to Joel, Chuck, Tom, and Max, the climb out of the new section is back to being as difficult as intended. Trying to make rocks disappear is never a good idea; they always come back and often bring friends!

It's getting leafy out there. Be careful in the corners or be prepared to go thud.

The raking party could be as early as Sunday, October 30 if Mother Nature keeps up the crazy shedding. Fingers crossed. We'll evaluate it after seeing what the weekend brings.

[stoneage]

Night ride tonight. 5:30.

[mara]

There will be construction happening on the ski trail over the next several days. The ski trail will be slightly widened in places and rerouted in two. The second reroute will cross our singletrack trail near A22 on the trailhead map, just after you cross the existing ski trail from Northstar to Zip.

The ski folks have been great -- consulting with us to figure out the most minimal impact places, offering to source and place trees along the trail where the brush-back has made singletrack visible from the ski trail, and agreeing to tweak their trails next year if any unexpected watershed issues occur.

Please use extra caution -- the machine operator will not be able to hear you coming. If needed, reroute by taking a left on the ski trail after the final Northstar uphill, a right at the next intersection on the north end access road and a left to reenter zip.

Also note that the City of Lakes Loppet will be hosting their trail maintenance day tomorrow, October 29. Please be cautious at trail crossings; some of these folks may not be aware of the mountain bike trails.

[GodOfMildew]

Some fights are not necessarily worth winning when you consider the potential cost. Like you say, this should become a non-issue shortly, especially with Minnesota's history of random fall wind/rain/snow. For once crappy weather might actually work in our favor.

Until then, thanks to everyone for keeping their tires on the dirt. We know you want to jump rather than roll and we'll get that back for you as soon as possible.

I noticed on my ride tonight that the probable headache in question seems to have disappeared and air is back on the menu.

Side note, lots more leaves on the trail.

[stoneage]

The exciting and talented Tim Wegner came over to the newest authorized section of Theo today to help scout out a potential corridor. He was very impressed by the contours from Glenwood to 55, and envisions some very cool trail and features. Thanks for taking a look Tim.

p.s. A quick trip to the 394/Glenwood side had him awestruck with it's elevation and terrain opportunities.

[mara]

Caution: The area right after the jump in the dump loop is very sandy since it hasn't rained for months. Jump the jump only at your own risk -- the landing is very sketchy and cannot be repaired without a couple hundred people dumping camelbaks of water on it. This was not the ideal time for the tree to be removed. Please be careful out there.

[mara]

The monthly MOCA meeting is at seven tonight in Kenwood Community Center.

Anyone and everyone is welcome.

[mara]

The Theo raking party will be going on this morning and afternoon. Please be aware that there will be many rakers on the trail who might not be able to hear you coming.

No plans for the day? Join the raking party. We'll be leaving the main chalet around 10:30 and raking our way from the south end of the south loop to the north end of the north loop. Anyone and everyone is welcome to show up for as little or as much time you have available. It's an easy and fun way to help the trail dry out faster next spring. BYOR -- bring your own rake!

[JRHeadhunter]

BIG thank you to those that raked the trail! I rode after you guys it looks awesome and will be in great shape for winter!

[igor]

Yes thanks to the leave raking crew! I got out there later Sunday afternoon and the trail was sweet!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mara]

BIG thank you to those that raked the trail! I rode after you guys it looks awesome and will be in great shape for winter!

That would be these fine folks:

6042

It was a great day to catch up with old friends, meet a bunch of wonderful new people, and shatter our previous raking party accomplishments both in turnout and speed.

THANK YOU!

As usual, SuperTom was moving too fast to be captured on film. Note the amazingly realistic photo editing to get him in the picture.

[mtb_guy]

Awesome....Thank you!

:banana:

[ryno lite]

Great group! Thanks everyone!

[Mk3Rider]

Packed snow, go ride it! Anything will work right now so put on your headlights and enjoy the night. Probably get warm and melt most everything tomorrow.

[Greendog]

Well its been three months since the gates were closed. It's been a good run. Please be patient with the freeze/thaw period we are in. It's very difficult to keep up with the trail conditions. The gates may be closd for a few weeks, If the warm weather continues we may be able to open the gates later this week since the ground is so dry.

[At the Gates 2121]

Well its been three months since the gates were closed. It's been a good run. Please be patient with the freeze/thaw period we are in. It's very difficult to keep up with the trail conditions. The gates may be closd for a few weeks, If the warm weather continues we may be able to open the gates later this week since the ground is so dry.

that is a good run hopefully a weekend ride to come :)

[Nate Hanssen]

Anyone been/going out to check/open?

[Pandl]

Anyone been/going out to check/open?

Didn't it rain a lot yesterday? I was out of town, but driving back in the afternoon we were in rain most of the time. In this season, the cold temps, and no sun, the trails need a lot longer to dry out.

But, I have no idea what the trail condition actually is.

[mara]

Anyone been/going out to check/open?


Didn't it rain a lot yesterday? In this season, the cold temps, and no sun, the trails need a lot longer to dry out.

Paul nailed it.

One of us will check the trail this afternoon, but it would probably be best to make alternate riding plans.

[Ol Dirty Biker]

South Loop gate is locked.

[Greendog]

Sorry. Someone has been messing with the gates. :banghead: When I checked the trail the main gate was open so I assumd someone had opened th others. My bad. We will try to get someone out there to open the gates as soon as someone is availible.

[jitterjepp]

I will have them opened by morning. The locks will be changed so we don't have this problem again. Some people simply can't grow up.

I don't appreciate you wasting our time.

[jitterjepp]

All of the gates are now open.

[Ol Dirty Biker]

Thanks Shawn! :banana:

[Pandl]

All of the gates are now open.

YOU are THE man!! Thank you!! :beerme::beerme::beerme:

[Wolfchimp]

Sweet. I think I'll be up there to ride tonight. :)

[jitterjepp]

I'm not gonna complain. I did get a quick ride in. :banana:

[Wolfchimp]

Maybe someone should change the Trail Conditions page to say that it is open?

[jitterjepp]

Didn't even think of looking at that. Porter thanks for mentioning it and Reed thanks for fixing it.

Wish I could go riding again!

[Mk3Rider]

Get out and ride it, anything will work and it is fast for snow.

[Tim Wegner]

Some guy gave me a bunch of white paper today with all kinds of squigggly lines on it and numbers too. Nice of range of numbers too------about 70 different numbers on the lines, 820-890. This same guy said to me "the trail gods have asked you to make sense of all the numbers and make a connection."

Since I have been sicker than a dog for the past 4 days and looks like it will continue at least through the weekend I should be able to add one more line to all the squiggles and see if connections, whoopsys, puckers, and sand hog type berms can be put on this wonderful sheet of white paper. Never know what might happen at Theo next year!!!!

sick dog wegner

[egoo]

Tim I hope you are talking about what I think you are talking about. Awesome! But I guess the Glenwood spur is out? Really trashed with most of the trees gone.

[stoneage]

"Really trashed with most of the trees gone."
I wouldn't go that far. A downed tree is someone else's alternate route.
The tornado was pretty focused and a walk through showed great potential.

[stoneage]

BTW, Eric, is this what you do in your spare time?
Tag businesses in the 7 Corners area?

[mara]

The forestry people removed trees that were fallen or in danger of falling from the west side of TWP between Glenwood and 55. The tornado did the trashing; the forestry folks were just doing their jobs and clearing out the aftermath to make the park safer.

The CAC will be meeting again in January to review physical and financial modeling of different approved plan ideas before making their final recommendations. At this time, singletrack trails are tentatively an approved use for areas on the west side of TWP between 55 and 394.

Zero additional trail building is approved at this time. While we hope that changes and are actively planning for the best case scenario while working to make it reality, we're not there quite yet.

[mara]

The trail will be closed for a few days until spring decides to turn back into winter.

[egoo]

Billy, that was one of my fans that did that. I was bummed to see one of my unofficial trails completely gone. Kind of like brownie, can't say it was for the best.

[stoneage]

"can't say it was for the best."
With Tim involved, it should actually be much better.

[mara]

The monthly MOCA meeting will be held tonight, 7pm at Kenwood Community Center. All are welcome.

[GodOfMildew]

The Glenwood/theo intersection looks a lot different. Don't know how long it's looked this way, but wow, it looks a lot different.

[jitterjepp]

Wow! So much for the "woods."

[dave t]

The Glenwood/theo intersection looks a lot different. Don't know how long it's looked this way, but wow, it looks a lot different.
Is that the tornado swath after clean-up/clearing?

[Pain Cave Spelunker]

Is that the tornado swath after clean-up/clearing?

Yeah. There is actually quite a bit more they've clear cut to the north and to the east across the road. It's amazing how open it is now.

[Greendog]

During this freeze/thaw period we are in, please try not to ride when there are soft or wet exposed trail surfaces. Try to ride in the morning or after dark when the trail is frozen.

[gzerbe]

Ran into the let me tell you how to use "my" trail crowd today - a reminder - this is a multi use trail - respect for all users is the key to sustainability

[mara]

Ran into the let me tell you how to use "my" trail crowd today - a reminder - this is a multi use trail - respect for all users is the key to sustainability

Glenn, I just saw this now. I'm sorry for your bad experience.

As anyone who reads these forums well knows, Theo singletrack is open to all users at all times the trail is open to any user. Skinny-tired mountain bikers, fat bike riders, hikers, unicyclists, trail runners, and snowshoers are all welcome to ride/run/use the trail when it is open.

Please don't let a couple of uneducated riders keep you from enjoying the trail. You are welcome to pass on my contact information to anyone who wants to argue the point or discuss this further.

Happy trails,

mara

steward@mocatrails.org
traildiva@fatcyclist.com

[Stonehenge]

Glenn, I just saw this now. I'm sorry for your bad experience.

As anyone who reads these forums well knows, Theo singletrack is open to all users at all times the trail is open to any user. Skinny-tired mountain bikers, fat bike riders, hikers, unicyclists, trail runners, and snowshoers are all welcome to ride/run/use the trail when it is open.

Please don't let a couple of uneducated riders keep you from enjoying the trail. You are welcome to pass on my contact information to anyone who wants to argue the point or discuss this further.

Happy trails,

mara

steward@mocatrails.org
traildiva@fatcyclist.com

??? Was anyone biking? If so wasn't the offesive person the non biking party?.... Glenn did not specify trail usage of either party. With little insight I could only theorise- If Glen went to Wirth from Edina it would be to ride, not walk and he posted on a biking site- I figure that Glen was riding..(coming from south metro) and encountered a local residence dog walker runner or walker. NEI to interpret correctly.

---------------------------------
On another similar note - More than once MPR broadcast interview with a representative of Loppet whom stated some activites will move to Wirth park due to warm weather conditions. Further stated a past year event hosting 6,000 walking participants will be held this year on "singletrack" at "Wirth park". Could it be what is implied? Hopefully we get some snow for them to stomp.

[mara]

??? Was anyone biking?

I believe this was an encounter between a mountain biker who was running or walking the trail and a mountain biker who was riding the trail. In any case, NO ONE should be telling another legitimate trail user they don't belong. Trail runners, snowshoers, mountain bikers of all tire sizes, unicyclists, and hikers are all welcome and encouraged to use the trail when it is open.


???On another similar note - More than once MPR broadcast interview with a representative of Loppet whom stated some activites will move to Wirth park due to warm weather conditions. Further stated a past year event hosting 6,000 walking participants will be held this year on "singletrack" at "Wirth park". Could it be what is implied? Hopefully we get some snow for them to stomp.

The luminary loppet will be held on the golf course and the back 40 area of Wirth. While we'd normally welcome the loppet folk to use our trails, warm conditions make it impossible to plan for singletrack use when there is no predicting whether the trails will even be open at the time of the event. It sounds like organizers are planning a spectacular loppet despite challenging conditions.

[Stonehenge]

[/QUOTE]The luminary loppet will be held on the golf course and the back 40 area of Wirth. While we'd normally welcome the loppet folk to use our trails, warm conditions make it impossible to plan for singletrack use when there is no predicting whether the trails will even be open at the time of the event. It sounds like organizers are planning a spectacular loppet despite challenging conditions.[/QUOTE]

Maybe the plan has changed..... The loppet interviewie also spoke to this saying normally ski trail is used but this years ski trail condition will/may be to be hard on elderly and others so they have "single track" to use at Wirth. Closed trail or not, loppet events are big so one wonders if the single track will be used regardless of open/ closed status (similar as a planned and published mtb race on muddy trail.....the race goes on- too much put into it already - sacrifices).
Maybe a suprise- guess what we are doing? Or just pre event damage control to keep participation levels up? Or??? Knowing the trail condition and protect the trail process and warm weather forcast, I was supprised to hear the words of this event representative.

[mara]

The luminary loppet map is up on the loppet website here: http://www.loppet.org/files/loppet/pdfs/2012/WirthOutline.pdf

Skiers and mountain bikers play nicely together. There is no way the loppet folks would try to run several thousand people on a closed singletrack trail, knowing the trail would be destroyed.

[jag]

Small pond for the bike race. I rode on that last week. There is the old bike trail right there that could add to it. What is that darker blue line? A carnival? Henge, come over Sat and I'll take you on my loop minus the morc trails plus the carnival. surly beer tent.... ha.

[gzerbe]

??? Was anyone biking? If so wasn't the offesive person the non biking party?.... Glenn did not specify trail usage of either party. With little insight I could only theorise- If Glen went to Wirth from Edina it would be to ride, not walk and he posted on a biking site- I figure that Glen was riding..(coming from south metro) and encountered a local residence dog walker runner or walker. NEI to interpret correctly.

---------------------------------
On another similar note - More than once MPR broadcast interview with a representative of Loppet whom stated some activites will move to Wirth park due to warm weather conditions. Further stated a past year event hosting 6,000 walking participants will be held this year on "singletrack" at "Wirth park". Could it be what is implied? Hopefully we get some snow for them to stomp.


Dave - I am a biker and have turned countless laps at Theo but in this case I was hiking. I have never had a hiker or runner says anything negative about me biking but I have had bikers on multiple occasion "school" me on how to use or not use the trail - this is how bikers lose access to trails. These trails belong to everyone and when we lose sight of that because of some volunteer trail work we risk everything...

[mara]

when we lose sight of that because of some volunteer trail work we risk everything...

Anyone telling you to not legitimately use an open trail is not a volunteer and is definitely not doing trail work. While I would hope these individuals were well meaning but seriously misinformed, they still do not in any way, shape, or form reflect trail use policies or trail workers at Theo.

[Stonehenge]

Dave - I am a biker and have turned countless laps at Theo but in this case I was hiking. I have never had a hiker or runner says anything negative about me biking but I have had bikers on multiple occasion "school" me on how to use or not use the trail - this is how bikers lose access to trails. These trails belong to everyone and when we lose sight of that because of some volunteer trail work we risk everything...

Gen and Mara - I do not dispute your message of trail share and you need to know that is certainly not in question here for me, - my issue and point in the first place was feeling chastised as a biker when there was absolutly zero information in Glens post to point a finger to any user type and Mara to interpret or insinuate riders were the bad guys and then chastise. Mara, I felt chastised as a biker when clearly there was no direction to indicate biker involvment at all.
I have no inside track like many readers here and no crystal ball for this instance. How Mara came to "believe" is beyond any info posted at the time, perhaps there was PM or behind the scenes comunicationbut it was not common to readers. I was standing up for bikers and readers here. Now the picture is painted. (Cart came before the Horse).
Thats all

[Greendog]

Please be patient during this freeze thaw time of year. The gates will remained close as long as the temps are near or above the freezing point. With the warmer temps and the sun being stronger, the south facing trail section become soft nearly everyday and are easily damaged. There are already several damaged sections that will need to be fixed in the spring. Those resources would be better spend building new trail or improving the existing trial than making repairs.

[mara]

Theo is closed and will likely remain that way until the end of spring thaw.

Wet, gloppy snow on top of a bunch of rain is insulating the mud on the trail and keeping it unrideable even when temperatures dip below freezing.

To those who know better than the trail crew and ride around the closures, we ask you to PLEASE reconsider your actions this spring. We're lobbying for a bunch of new trail. When our land manager sees a bunch of tire tracks riding around a "trail closed" gate, it does not help our cause.

We want to build new trail in the spring, not spend months fixing erosion and ruts. Thanks to everyone who rides elsewhere and spreads the word.

[reim0039]

What does the trail look like after the last few days of warm weather? Is there still snow on the ground? Is it snow-less but a muddy mess? Just wondering how far away we are from some dirt riding.

[widespot]

Most of the paved paths that run through the woods in the metro still have water on them, the ones that aren't cleared still have packed snow in places.

My guess is the mountain bike trails are pretty soft and sloppy if not covered with packed snow still, it will likely be a while yet. I'm looking forward to the opening though.

[bigwheel]

I haven't been to Theo in a while so this is pure speculation. But I was just at Leb this afternoon.

(At Leb) We are hoping for an earlier than usual opening. But keep in mind that there is still frozen ground underneath of what will soon look like a nice surface. If the ground underneath is still frozen, the moisture has nowhere to go. (other than surface-level evaporation) Lack of snow will thaw the ground faster than usual. But the ground does a good job of insulating the frost. So, don't expect an opening real soon.

For a good indicator, jump on a shovel in your back yard. If you hit ice before burying the blade, think ground hog seeing his shadow.

[jitterjepp]

I would count on a couple weeks at the least. I checked it last week and it still had snow but it was soft and muddy under the snow. It generally takes a few weeks to dry out every year. A couple days of good weather wont change that.

Lets also remember that it's only March. It's not May. March is supposed to be a pretty snowy month of the year.

The record for the most snow in MN (66 inches) is in the month of March.

[Greendog]

I checked out the trail last night and it is still way too wet to ride on. There is still snow on some of the trail. We will have to wait for the frost to come out before we can even think about opening the trail. Please stay off until then.

[mara]

We will have to wait for the frost to come out before we can even think about opening the trail. Please stay off until then.

On a totally unrelated note, the new hardened surface access road by Sweeney Lake makes it much easier for the park police to take a quick drive through Theo when they're in the area. It's nice to have land manager support, even if they did veto us on the tasers. ;)

***

The Brownie Lake Citizen's Advisory Committee will be presenting their land use plan to the MPRB planning committee at tonight's meeting. All Brownie user groups (as they are represented on the CAC) seem happy with the proposal.

The planning commission could table the issue, make changes, send back to the CAC for clarification, or use the CAC's recommendation to vote on a plan to be presented to the commissioners next month. Fingers crossed for all involved.</SPAN>

[mara]

The MPRB planning committee unanimously voted to approve the Brownie Lake CAC's recommended land use plan. Next stop is a vote by the MPRB commissioners, possibly as early as next Tuesday's meeting.

The Wirth Park CAC meets next Wednesday, 6:30pm at MPRB HQ. The agenda has not yet been released.

[Kingbozo]

The MPRB planning committee unanimously voted to approve the Brownie Lake CAC's recommended land use plan. Next stop is a vote by the MPRB commissioners, possibly as early as next Tuesday's meeting.

The Wirth Park CAC meets next Wednesday, 6:30pm at MPRB HQ. The agenda has not yet been released.

MinnPost (http://www.minnpost.com/two-cities/2012/03/minneapolis-upgrades-will-make-forgotten-brownie-lake-more-accessible) has an article on the new plans for Brownie.

[mara]

Since there has been a bit of confusion, I'd like to clarify that when the trails are closed, they are closed to all users whether on wheel or foot.

The park police do not differentiate between foot and pedal traffic -- they'll ticket everyone equally.

To that guy (and there always seems to be that guy) who thinks they can escape a ticket by saying they're with MORC or they're just inspecting the trail, nice try but the land manager has a list of the individuals given permission to do so and you're not on it.

Just be patient folks. We go through this every year. The trail will be opened as soon as possible to do so without damage, but unfortunately even with warm sunny days, that time still a way off.

[Greendog]

We inspected the trail again on Sunday and there are still to many soft spots to open the trail. Most of the trail is drying nicely, but there is still moisture coming out of the ground. There are a few trees that need to be removed and we still need to do a full trail inspection. The trail seem to suffer more damage than normal during this non-winter. There are a lot of repairs that will need to be done this spring. Please be patient.

[Mk3Rider]

What days are you planning on doing trail work this year? Tuesdays or Wednesdays?

[mara]

What days are you planning on doing trail work this year? Tuesdays or Wednesdays?

We'll be doing trailwork every Wednesday except the second one of the month, when we have our monthly MOCA meeting. There may also be random Sunday sessions as need dictates and life allows.

We hope you're able to join in the fun!

[mara]

The Brownie Lake land use plan was approved by MPRB commissioners as presented!

This doesn't mean instant gratification. There still has to be trail alignment approval by staff and foresters, followed by debate and decisions about how and when and with what the trail should be brought up to standard.

The CAC has charged us with keeping as much of the current trail as possible, rerouting only where forestry demands and harding surfaces where appropriate to conform to IMBA standards.

When the build/improvements start, we could really use help from those of you who ride Brownie and want to keep the current level of challenge. We'll be moving a lot of rocks :) Brownie has been designated as an advanced trail, but just how challenging it becomes will ultimately be determined by who builds it. We'll need your help for optimum trail awesomeness.

[reim0039]

Any chance Theo will open up tomorrow?

[stoneage]

errrrr, it isn't open yet?! Luckily I went to Leb instead, which is perfect. Elm Creek opened yesterday, also perfect.

[jitterjepp]

errrrr, it isn't open yet?! Luckily I went to Leb instead, which is perfect. Elm Creek opened yesterday, also perfect.

That's nice. Did you have a good ride? :p

[stoneage]

That's nice. Did you have a good ride? :p
Yeah! I was going to ride over but I saw that Leb had opened. Really nice shape. Is theo wet? I can't believe it wouldn't be ready.

[Greendog]

We did a full trail inspection tonight and decided to leave it closed for a few more days, especially with the high chance of rain tomorrow. There is also a tree that still needs to be removed. If the rain holds off there is a good chance we can open it tomorrow evening.

[mara]

Trail was sticking to my shoes tonight :cryin:

Things are drying out nicely, but we need one good day of sun and/or wind to get the trail past the erosion stage and into tacky goodness.

Cross your fingers for no rain tomorrow.

[jag]

What are you planning with a lot of rocks at Brownie? Hopefully not cobbling all the hills? There is one spot that could use something where it switchbacks real quick a couple times but the rest of the hills seem to just need some work to slope off the heavy rains better.
We should move that big rock back into the trail someday and ride it.
There's a lot of nasty weeds in there. What type of trimming will they allow?

[mara]

What are you planning with a lot of rocks at Brownie? Hopefully not cobbling all the hills? There is one spot that could use something where it switchbacks real quick a couple times but the rest of the hills seem to just need some work to slope off the heavy rains better.
We should move that big rock back into the trail someday and ride it.
There's a lot of nasty weeds in there. What type of trimming will they allow?

The timeline for Brownie is still open -- they've got a few more things to work out before the planning is settled.

We will only change the trail where forestry demands or where unsustainable grades need hardening. Those are manditory to keeping the trail; we'll make no changes beyond what is required. Regular tread and outslope maintenance will go a long way in keeping the trail ridable.

Trimming will be allowed with hand tools on authorized trailwork days.

[jag]

I can picture you with a machette strapped to your back heading into the woods. ha.


(Piraaaate.......)

[mara]

Since there has been a bit of confusion, I'd like to clarify that when the trails are closed, they are closed to all users whether on wheel or foot.


The trail remains closed to ALL traffic, foot or bike. Please respect the MPRB, trail volunteers, and the neighborhood by respecting this closure.

We all want the trail to open as soon as possible. The MPRB wants you to be able to ride. The volunteers want you to be able to ride. We all want to be out on dirt.

Designated folks are out there several times a day. As soon as the trail meets the MPRB's standards for opening, it will open.

[prenex]

I'd just like to add we're right on the verge of getting a bunch more trails, an official connecter, and Brownie lake approved. Please don't piss off the people who live in the area by riding the "deer trails."

[reim0039]

Can you park in the golf course parking lot? If so do you have to pay to park? I usually ride in or park at the beach but never knew if I could park in the golf course parking lot.

[KleinCrazy]

Can you park in the golf course parking lot? If so do you have to pay to park? I usually ride in or park at the beach but never knew if I could park in the golf course parking lot.

It is my undestanding (please correct me if I am wrong trail Crew) that mountain bikers can park at the MAIN Chalet (18 hole course) parking lot.

To park at the Par 3 lot, I believe you have to buy a pass or something.

[mara]

Mountain bikers can park at the main chalet, but the preferred parking location is at Wirth Beach. Since it's so easy for us to travel the extra distance to the trails, parking at Wirth Beach helps reduce congestion at the chalet and makes life easier for less mobile users of the park.

Parking in the par three lot requires a paid parking pass.

We encourage everyone who can to either ride to the trail or park at Wirth Beach and ride over.

[werts]

mara is the construction at wirth beach done? been a while since ive been there but last time i tried to park the lot was closed, that was however early fall...

[mara]

mara is the construction at wirth beach done? been a while since ive been there but last time i tried to park the lot was closed, that was however early fall...

The lot is open, although there may still be sporadic construction in the area. The beach should reopen this summer as well!

The reworked lot is impressively better than before.

[reim0039]

The trail looks very different in some spots due to the cleared trees. Why have so many trees been removed? The areas down by Wirth Lake along Theo Wirth Parkway look a lot different, too. I knew the tornado took down a lot of trees but it looks like they are clearing a lot more than necessary... but I'm no expert.

[Greendog]

The trees that were removed along the mtb trail were diseased trees. They are trying to stop the spread. The ski trail has also been rerouted in a couple of places, so it looks a little different. We were able to get the skiers to plant a few new trees to block off the old trail. During the Glenwood area tornado clean-up many of the other dead and undesirable trees were also removed. There have been many concerns expressed to the MPRB about the number of trees removed.</SPAN>

[werts]

how quickly does theo dry out? id would be nice to be able to get out tonight to relieve some of that post family dinner stomach stretch disorder. it would be like 6ish and didnt the rain stop around 1pm yesterday? day and a half should clear it up right?

[mara]

how quickly does theo dry out? id would be nice to be able to get out tonight to relieve some of that post family dinner stomach stretch disorder. it would be like 6ish and didnt the rain stop around 1pm yesterday? day and a half should clear it up right?

Unknown. Things haven't been drying as fast as we'd like this year, but today is sunny and windy. My guess would be that you should go for it, but be prepared to bail out and ride pavement if the trail is not ready. You may want to rail corners less than usual, especially in the flat areas by the lake and in section five/White Pine Flyer.

Please post up what you find.

[Mountain Jam]

I rode Brownie this morning the trail should be fine by now.


---
I am here: http://tapatalk.com/map.php?ahtdeg

[ouijal]

I see the trails are still open and marked as "wet". With most of the trails closed right now, can I assume that Theo is "wet don't ride" for this afternoon/tonight?

[mara]

I see the trails are still open and marked as "wet". With most of the trails closed right now, can I assume that Theo is "wet don't ride" for this afternoon/tonight?

Yes.

We have a hard time winning on this one. If we close the gates, people grump about micro-management. If we don't close the gates, some take it as an invitation to ride even though the trail is clearly muddy and the signs state "open when dry."

Thanks for checking in!

[ouijal]

Yes.

We have a hard time winning on this one. If we close the gates, people grump about micro-management. If we don't close the gates, some take it as an invitation to ride even though the trail is clearly muddy and the signs state "open when dry."

Thanks for checking in!

Cool. Thanks for clarification!

[mr_antic]

What are the chances Theo will open today. Hoping to get a 6:00 ride in???

[GodOfMildew]

It's not happening today. Too many wet spots still, mostly places that seem to be the result of folks riding the trail wet.

I'm not happy about it either.

[jitterjepp]

When are you guys going to start coming to trail work? I signed up for this with the idea that I would be done after we got to Brownie. When the first shovel hits brownie I'm done. I thought that would be four years at most.

It's been a long time. It's been ten years. We have a dump loop to get done. We still have the rest of the new section and MOCA is mapping some sweet trail with help for areas south of 55.

You guys gotta start helping. All of you that ride there. You've got a lot of people that have been doing this alone for too dang long. You gotta start helping so we can get on.

I'm talking to you, reader. You've got people like Sean and Mara and Matt and Chuck and Dave and Steef and Tom that have been there since the beginning working to get the neighborhoods and the MPRB to get on board. Grabbing a shove is the easy part.

You guys have the opportunity to have one of the very best urban single track systems in the nation and you're screwing it off. You really are. You're pissing it away. Every time you don't show up we lose future trail.

If we don't take those areas some other groups will and we wont get them back. You need to be involved. You need to do it right now.


Quit asking MOCA what Brownie is going to look like when we get there. Just be there and be one of the people that designs it.

[Greendog]

Right on Shawn. There are about 15 trouble spots that when fixed will help the trail open sooner after it rains. The fixes could also make the trail more fun to ride. For all those asking when the gates will be open, one or two nights of trail work would make it happen sooner.

Like Shawn said, after we fix the problem spots there is another technical section approved and other sections on the way once we get past the planning stages, but it will take a lot longer with only the dedicated few showing up.

Trails don't get built by themselves.

[mara]

It seems some riders are unclear about when the trail is open, due in part to MPRB approved wording on the trail signs. We're working on temporary signage for use during the rainy season and until the public learns how best to treat a sustainably built trail.

Theo trails are only open when the tread is dry, regardless of whether the gate is closed or open. As volunteers, we are unable to micromanage gate closures during short periods of wet. If we were to close the gates every time the trail needs to dry for twelve hours, the trail would be closed much more than it should be. We and the MPRB, right or wrong, rely on riders to use good judgement and only ride when appropriate.

For what it's worth, the park police can and will ticket people riding on an obviously wet trail just like they ticket folks who ride around the closed gates. The trail is an asset to the park and the area. The MPRB and volunteers are grateful to the majority of riders who treat it with respect because it's the right thing to do, not because they fear a ticket.

[JoshB]

The problem is MORC members assume that people frequent this website as a way to check on the trail conditions and that the people that ride the trails are expert riders. The trail is a public trail. There are no notifications on it that say if it appears wet, don't ride. There are only gates that are either open or closed. You can't assume that everyone is going to take a course on proper trail management. Some people are going to think, "its mountain biking, it is supposed to be wet and wild and bumpy".

If the gate is open, you can't criticize someone for being on the trail that. You are assuming they are experts and that isn't fair. It also shows again, that MORC really only caters to MORC members. There are no rules posted so to expect everyone to know them is ridiculous. The only rules posted are the ones on the trail door that says it is closed.

It is also TOTALLY HYPOCRYTICAL that Greendog can post a message like he did complaining about riders (which has nothing to do with trail conditions and is blatantly negative) and his posts are kept up, yet I post something and it gets taken down with no explanation. I also had this one taken down: "Trail is closed. No reason given." after I had gone to the trail when your site didn't say it was closed only to get there and have it be closed. It had been over 24 hours since the last post and still nothing was posted about it being closed.

You are serving the public, not MORC on this course. It WAS too wet to ride the other day, but the fact he can post messages like that and not have them taken down shows how this site caters to only members and not the public you are supposed to be serving. Maybe MORC should invest in their own course(s) and land and then you can manage it however you want. Until then, you need to assume that the regular person will ride whenever the gates are open.

[ryno lite]

The problem is MORC members assume that people frequent this website as a way to check on the trail conditions and that the people that ride the trails are expert riders. The trail is a public trail. There are no notifications on it that say if it appears wet, don't ride. There are only gates that are either open or closed. You can't assume that everyone is going to take a course on proper trail management. Some people are going to think, "its mountain biking, it is supposed to be wet and wild and bumpy".

If the gate is open, you can't criticize someone for being on the trail that. You are assuming they are experts and that isn't fair. It also shows again, that MORC really only caters to MORC members. There are no rules posted so to expect everyone to know them is ridiculous. The only rules posted are the ones on the trail door that says it is closed.

It is also TOTALLY HYPOCRYTICAL that Greendog can post a message like he did complaining about riders (which has nothing to do with trail conditions and is blatantly negative) and his posts are kept up, yet I post something and it gets taken down with no explanation. I also had this one taken down: "Trail is closed. No reason given." after I had gone to the trail when your site didn't say it was closed only to get there and have it be closed. It had been over 24 hours since the last post and still nothing was posted about it being closed.

You are serving the public, not MORC on this course. It WAS too wet to ride the other day, but the fact he can post messages like that and not have them taken down shows how this site caters to only members and not the public you are supposed to be serving. Maybe MORC should invest in their own course(s) and land and then you can manage it however you want. Until then, you need to assume that the regular person will ride whenever the gates are open.

The trail condition issue has been taken care of. We are all volunteers who have real jobs during the day. People have to give us time to moderate and take care of things. I've been typing like a mad man behind the scenes to deal with this. I try my best to get to things during the work day, but my job comes first.

[bigwheel]

Josh, Thanks for taking this away from the Trail Conditions thread. As you have already learned, off-topic posts will get deleted right away -- even if the moderators happen to like the post. If you look at post #1 on conditions threads, you will usually find out that this is a special thread. Conditions posts automatically gets sent out to Twitter, and forwarded to shops and places that want up-to-date trail conditions.

You are right that a newbie won't know that they are doing damage when they ride a wet trail. They need to be given a bit of leeway by the trail crew and other people "in the know" -- even though it is a thankless and frustrating thing to do. As much as we hate it, we understand that some people will see the gate open and assume it is okay to ride. But we also have to deal with selfish people that don't give a rip, and aren't going to let some nobody like me tell them when they can or can't ride. These are the ones that get the volunteer's blood boiling, and quick on the trigger to rant whenever they see anyone on wet trails.

MORC tries as much as we can to educate riders. I'm not sure about Theo's rules, but whenever we are allowed to do so, we try to put information on the kiosks, and literature explaining the various trail conditions and when to stay off. However, keep in mind that even though MORC is the organization whose volunteers built the trail and are responsible for maintaining the trail - that we don't own it, and we are not allowed to simply put up whatever signs and stuff we want (or think that the trail needs).

MORC volunteers are volunteers - not public servants. None of the trail crew, moderators, board members or other volunteers take a dime for the enormous amount of personal time that they dedicate to making the sport better for everyone.

So, please give us a bit of leeway - even when we screw up. Our volunteers are our #1 asset. Without them, there will be no trail to ride.

[mara]

Trailhead signs state "trails are open when dry" in large letters at the top.

We'll be installing additional temporary signage shortly to aid in rider understanding. Now that the ground has thawed, we'll also be able to replace the vandalized north end trailhead sign within the next couple weeks.

Now if it would just stop raining :)

[JoshB]

I get that MORC is volunteers and I really do appreciate the amount of time it takes keeping the course(s) up. I live 45 miles away from Theo but work right next to it so if I am on the trail and see branches or something that is blocking the trails, I will move them. I do what I can to help but since I live so far away, it is difficult to stop by and do any trail maintenance. My issue is that you are volunteering for a public trail and with that, will come public scrutiny. Many people that ride on the trails have no idea about trail management. I have been riding on Theo for almost a year and I can't tell you what it says on the sign on the gate. I, like a lot of people are going to ride to the gate, if I see it open, I will probably be riding unless I can see it is obviously wet. Not everyone would stop if it was wet, they'll just keep going.

How many people that frequent this site are non-MORC members? You can't assume that your average Joe is going to know the rules or bother to stop and read the rules on your site. I can tell you people I work with laugh when I say the trails are too wet to ride. They laugh and say, "its a mountain bike course, isn't it supposed to be rough?" They don't understand that their is an art to maintaining the trails. That is your average user, not a MORC member that is a full on mountain bike fanatic. Your average Joe isn't going to stop to read the sign on an open gate, he's going to ride right in.

My biggest problem is that if you are going to post that it is too wet to ride, then close the trail. If you close the trail, then post when you are either doing it or when you plan to close it. There are times when it could be closed for 24 hours before it is actually posted on the site and that isn't fair to Joe Public who may come from long distances to ride. (I should add that I'm only speaking about Theo. I have never been on any other trails)

I get that people work during the day, I do too. I have volunteered to more than one MORC member who sent me nasty emails to meet them during the day at Theo and not one has offered to meet me there to go over the maintenance, in fact, one MORC member went so far as to accuse me of purposefully damaging the trails, despite him admitting he doesn't ride Theo, nor has he ever met me. That, is a great way to get new members, by the way.


Supporting and maintaining a public course is going to get you and your organization scrutinized. I'm sure you get tons of complaints about course closings, but having your members insult non-members who aren't "in the know" doesn't fly under any circumstances. You are volunteering. If you don't like the complaints, there is an easy solution for that.

When you have only certain members that can open and close the gates and those people don't immediately post when that has happened, it wreaks of private ownership and catering only to MORC members. Things like that are going to get complaints.

[Mike P]

I give up! You win.

(I typed up about a 4 paragraph response but deleted it. I just don't want the headache)

[bigwheel]

Josh, picture yourself as trail crew and tell me what you would do.

The trailhead signs state "trails are open when dry" in large letters at the top. But some riders like yourself go right past it, oblivious to the information.

The crew (and riders) post updates as soon as they have information. This information is posted on the MORC site, Facebook, Twitter, and at many local bike shop web sites. Yet some riders like yourself expect more.

The information is all around, but only for people that care to be informed.

We don't have a webcam at the gate to constantly monitor whether it is open or closed. And at most trails, MORC isn't even allowed to open/close trails. This is done by the park managers. The best the crew can do is swap emails regarding "how much rain fell where", and make a decision. Fortunately, after a bunch of years, the crew is pretty good at making the right call before posting an update

Now that you know how this works, maybe you can help the rest of us educate those who are less informed? But try to be nice -- even though there are some people who would rather argue than understand and be part of the solution.

[JoshB]

Bob,
I'm referring to Theo only. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. I don't understand why it is so difficult to make a post to the site that the trail is closed or is going to be closed at a certain date/time? If a dirt boss or whoever has the ability to lock the trail is going to close it, then it should be posted. At Theo, I'm not exaggerating when I say sometimes it is over 24 hours before the site is updated to say closed. That is unacceptable. I've heard the excuse that not everyone has phones or whatever device to post while they are there, but you can post before you head over there or immediately after you have closed it. That simply isn't too much to ask or even that difficult.

Again, you don't know me and I take offense when you say I ride on the trails when it is too wet and damage them. You are accusing me of something that you have ZERO proof or knowledge of. Too wet is also a pretty loose term at Theo because there are times when it will say too wet in the morning and by noon on the same day there will be a post that says, "Tacky". So maybe you can see my frustration when you complain about people riding when some say it is too wet, others will say it is damp, and to others, they think it is fine/tacky. I'm no expert, but I highly doubt a trail can go from "too wet" to "tacky" in less than 4-8 hours.

Like I have said before, on any week day, I can be at the gate to Theo in 2 minutes. Let me know when I can meet you or anyone there and you can explain to me what constitutes too wet vs tacky or inbetween. At Theo, there just doesn't seem to be any consistancy and that is my frustation.

[yer russian]

< not a MORC member btw.

Ok, first of all deep breath. I just took one, it feels good, do it.
From the info that is on the site (bottom of Trail Conditions page), you can gather that if it rained yesterday, you shouldn't ride today. I think we can all agree on that. There are a few trails that dry out quickly (Elm Creek does, maybe River Bottoms), but the rest take at least a day. I know Theo takes even longer.
This is how I decide whether or not Theo is good to ride when no Trail Conditions posts are up:

Rained yesterday through now = no go
Rained the day before yesterday, it was sunny and windy = probably good
No rain for past few days = good to go

I'm not a "mountain bike fanatic" or MORC member. I don't think this website caters to "experts" or only members - as I said, I am neither but I check this site for trail conditions, tips for gear, rides, races, whatever. I don't think the trail stewards/dirt bosses/trail workers have a strict responsibility to post up the trail conditions. This is not like the electrical company keeping the lights on in your house - in that case I could come to their board and complain. The trail conditions updates are a free service that is optional - a privilege for users, not a right.

Also, the word wreaks does not mean what you think it means.

[JoshB]

Bob,
I'm only talking about Theo. Only trail I ride. I'm only asking for 2 things and I really don't think they are that difficult.
1. If you are going to open/close a trail, then post it either while you are doing it if you have that ability, or before you head over to do it with a simple post, like, "Heading over to open/close Theo around noon, 5pm, 8am, etc. It isn't too much to ask that the information is posted more frequently and if the people that have the ability to lock/unlock the trails find it too difficult, then maybe they don't need to have the keys. There shouldn't be hours, even days in some cases, between when it is open/closed and when the latest post is put up.
2. Consistancy when it is open/closed. There will be times when the trail conditions say "too wet" or damp and then I get over there and it is dry. Too wet is too loose of a term most of the time. What constitutes too wet? If I can go on the trail when it is too wet and my tires don't even so much as leave a mark, is it really too wet? If the gate is open, you really can't expect people to not go and ride on it. You can hope most people don't ride it if it is really too wet and sloppy but we all know that isn't the case.

I can assure you, the only marks I have left on that trail are from body imprints on trees or the ground when I crashed so please don't suggest that I go on that trail and damage it. I like the trails in the conditions they are in. I just think that there is room for improvement in the above areas and like I have said before, I can be at Theo during the week in 2 minutes. I'd love to have an expert show me the difference between too wet, damp, tacky, because I don't see any consistancy when it comes to Theo. There are clearly times during the week that people are checking on them during the day, so just let me know when and I will swing by and get better educated.


Also, when you go enter Theo, if you see the gates are open, why would you stop to read the sign on the gate? You'd have to literally enter the gate, stop, look to your left, read the sign, and then make your own determination as to whether or not it looks too wet. Your average bikers aren't going to do that. They see the open gate and they are going to go in.

[bigwheel]

Alina, Welcome to MORC and thanks for "Getting It". Much appreciated.

Josh, I started to type another response, but am going to give up too. You seem to know how a volunteer organization should be run. You seem to know how to keep conditions information up to the minute - even when (non-MORC) park personnel close/open gates, or when the volunteer checking on the trail and making the decision is a construction guy with no Internet access. You also seem to have better knowledge about trail conditions than the people who do the repairs and have spent multiple weekends learning about trails, drainage, cupping, erosion, downslope, outslope, soil, and other mundane topics. Your posts show infinite wisdom, and we all look forward to your next ones.

[GOBO]

A little advice, Josh...you need to listen what Mara has to say. From my experience over the years here, she is going to give you the most sound info about Theo. Listen.

I could burn a lap @ theo in the time it would take me to type all your posts.

Do a search on Theo and shad.;-) if you want to see some good reading. you're not posting anything new.

[Guy Incognito]

Yealry post on MORC Forum...be kind

Josh...buddy...Not going to attack you or citicize you...you make a few good points. Since i would assume that 90% of people that ride wet trails probably never even heard of this Forum I think the time would be better spent with better reward if the energy was spent coming up with better ideas to educate onsite riders. I get newbies are on here all the time so i see the need...but a larger audiance is most likely not here on the forum...they are on the trails causing ruts...and you can't blame someone that is unknowlegiable... I also find the conditon reports wishy washy from time to time...my fav "its raining at my house"...like i know where you live or how much it is raining. Funny.

All that said, Josh, the conditon report on the forum is not the "official" anything. Its data..its information...all to help you to make the best decsion on laoding up your bike. You drive in and its wet (unless its a date with your GF) you wasted your time...risk/reward buddy...thats the game...make the best decsion on the information that is provided...raifall amount/when it stopped/ how much time has past/how warm/wind/soil content/MORC forum...whatever...it is on you to make that call. I, like you, have to drive an hour to get to a trail...so you better bet your bottom bracket I'm going to make the best decsion that i can to make sure I am not wasting the trip..but yes on occasion my passion to melt dirt with my knobbies over takes my common sense that tells me the trail is too wet to ride.

And Yes there is a MORC clique...why wouldnt there be...its not a big deal though. You can either join it or not...I'm not...but i sure know a few of them (and they are all losers :) ) If people are being mean or offensive to you then they are jerks...its not MORC..its people...there everywhere. So suck it up buttercup :)...its just life....if its MORC..politics...chuckie cheese...or whatever...your going to run into them....just understand people in MORC get passionate...just like you...when there passion is threatened...just be glad our passion is MTB and not dog grooming.

All in all i dont know of any organization....and trust me i ride and race trails EVERYWHERE...that gives a more relaible up to date condition report on there trail systems....and it it is done on a volunteer level. Its not perfect...but its a whole lot better then nothing.

Also Greendog is a jerk...most people that go to the big wheels get that way...something about that extra 3" of wheel diameter makes then feel superior :) (j/k Charles...we need go on a ride soon...its been to long)

Ever notice how tempers flare when the trails are wet..make you realize how much riding affects our social and mental well being...on that note..IS THERE GOING TO BE A TRAIL OPEN TOMORROW..OPINION?? ..havnt been on MN dirt since getting back from racing in CO...

[kabbie_cache]

.IS THERE GOING TO BE A TRAIL OPEN TOMORROW..OPINION??.

Battle Creek is open right now. Just a few slick spots.

[jitterjepp]

Josh, it seems you have some spare time. How about some help building, maintaining and checking the trail at theo.

The third part comes after showing up for trail work for a while. We don't give that to just anyone with no investment whatsoever.

[Guy Incognito]

To get off the "pile on Josh" and "pile on MORC" mindset on this thread...I have a question about Theo...trail work in fact ....I've read a "call of arms" thread here in this posting and saw some dirty work in the dirt on the trail work post pics ...and I'm slightly inspired to dig some dirt and move some rocks...I understand you have a lot to do there and few hands. So is there a weekend trail work session planned...like sat...maybe make it a special session if indeed there is a lot of work ill bring the beer and my back...I'm one person...but trust me I work like 4...not to bright but I get things done....wed sucks cause of work and life responsibilities...Sat I don't work and I'm in the cities training...ironically enough I've never been to theo ....literally every track in the Midwest ...but I have an inner 494 loop phobia...so I an literally volunteering my time on a trail that my trek never touched ....thoughts ?

[mara]

Joe, we'd love to have you join us sometime.

We hold the occasional Sunday build, but have to get special permission for a Saturday session. If things go perfectly with the CAC and approval process, we may get to start building in an entirely new area of the park later this summer. If that happens we'll have at least one full weekend of blitz build, hopefully not on a racing-intensive date.

Thanks for being willing to help out on something you don't regularly ride. That's awesome! Even if you don't brave the inner loop to play in dirt with us, volunteering even once somewhere makes mountain biking a better place and we'd think you were just as awesome for working elsewhere (but you wouldn't be able to pick on the Chuck anywhere else.;))

[Mike P]

...I'm one person...but trust me I work like 4...not to bright but I get things done....

I can vouch for that,the work part that is. No comment on him not being "bright" ;). Joe was a regular volunteer at Murphy for quite awhile. He even stopped while riding one day and helped us move rocks in his riding gear!

[widespot]

< not a MORC member btw.

Ok, first of all deep breath. I just took one, it feels good, do it.
From the info that is on the site (bottom of Trail Conditions page), you can gather that if it rained yesterday, you shouldn't ride today. I think we can all agree on that. There are a few trails that dry out quickly (Elm Creek does, maybe River Bottoms), but the rest take at least a day. I know Theo takes even longer.
This is how I decide whether or not Theo is good to ride when no Trail Conditions posts are up:

Rained yesterday through now = no go
Rained the day before yesterday, it was sunny and windy = probably good
No rain for past few days = good to go

I'm not a "mountain bike fanatic" or MORC member. I don't think this website caters to "experts" or only members - as I said, I am neither but I check this site for trail conditions, tips for gear, rides, races, whatever. I don't think the trail stewards/dirt bosses/trail workers have a strict responsibility to post up the trail conditions. This is not like the electrical company keeping the lights on in your house - in that case I could come to their board and complain. The trail conditions updates are a free service that is optional - a privilege for users, not a right.

Also, the word wreaks does not mean what you think it means.

Yeah, it ain't the Apollo Program.

Mara, when/if it comes to any new signage let me know, I will see if my employer wants to help.

[mara]

Mara, when/if it comes to any new signage let me know, I will see if my employer wants to help.

That's great, Craig. Thanks!

We've got a couple new trailhead signs to install, but need to make a sticker or overlay to fix a misprint before they can go in. We're also working on temporary (but nice) rider education signs, possibly similar in form to the section six warning sign, as well as mobile signs warning riders that trailwork is happening, . If you think your employer would be willing to help with any of that, let's talk either here or email traildiva@fatcyclist.com We should have the designs done within the next week or so.

With any luck, in the next few years we'll need a boatload more trailhead signs. Fingers crossed!

[jitterjepp]

With any luck, in the next few years we'll need a boatload more trailhead signs. Fingers crossed!

:banana::banana::banana:

[Guy Incognito]

Joe, we'd love to have you join us sometime.

We hold the occasional Sunday build, but have to get special permission for a Saturday session. If things go perfectly with the CAC and approval process, we may get to start building in an entirely new area of the park later this summer. If that happens we'll have at least one full weekend of blitz build, hopefully not on a racing-intensive date.

Thanks for being willing to help out on something you don't regularly ride. That's awesome! Even if you don't brave the inner loop to play in dirt with us, volunteering even once somewhere makes mountain biking a better place and we'd think you were just as awesome for working elsewhere (but you wouldn't be able to pick on the Chuck anywhere else.;))


Yeah weekends are hard to come by...but by late summer I will either be injuried and out of points race or so far ahead I think I can make a race exception and show up...me loves me new trail..I don't really ride any MORC trails much anymore....including when they got out of racing this year...not by choice just by circumstance...but i still enjoy them when i get the chance. I'll leave the picking on chuck duty to you...just promise me i wont get shot at in the inner loop...that and new trail..some rock moving...some dirt digging...is all the incentive i need right now...but it is trail work protocol for me that you have to ride exactely 1/2 the hours you work that day....just as an FYI... :)

[Guy Incognito]

That's great, Craig. Thanks!

We've got a couple new trailhead signs to install, but need to make a sticker or overlay to fix a misprint!

Was the misprint "RIDE ONLY WET TRAILS" :)....sorry could not resist

[mara]

Yeah weekends are hard to come by...but by late summer I will either be injuried and out of points race or so far ahead I think I can make a race exception and show up...me loves me new trail..I don't really ride any MORC trails much anymore....including when they got out of racing this year...not by choice just by circumstance...but i still enjoy them when i get the chance. I'll leave the picking on chuck duty to you...just promise me i wont get shot at in the inner loop...that and new trail..some rock moving...some dirt digging...is all the incentive i need right now...but it is trail work protocol for me that you have to ride exactely 1/2 the hours you work that day....just as an FYI... :)

That works, mister. Late summer is perfect timing and we'll try to work something in to let you move all the rocks you can handle.

[Wheels]

Let me just say, it's super easy for anyone to post a trail condition - if you're on the trail and you see that it's too wet, go ahead and post with your mobile phone. Exit the trail, make a post - then the next person has up-to-date info.

We need to address this as a group, and we'll (MOCA) discuss better strategies at our next board meeting.

[Guy Incognito]

I can vouch for that,the work part that is. No comment on him not being "bright" ;). Joe was a regular volunteer at Murphy for quite awhile. He even stopped while riding one day and helped us move rocks in his riding gear!


I remember helping with that!!!....then got the chance to be the first rider....with about 2 yards of crap stuffed up my nose from the bloody nose i got..good fun!!

Yeah you and I used to move some ground there when Pete was still around. Then Sundays turned into race days...and race days turned into more race days....and then i got to murphy twice a year rather then twice a week....its all good though...glad and appreciate the fact that you took over and kept the trail up to par.....ill have to come down that way sometime and ride it...maybe pop into a trail work session too...keep up the good work Mike.

[JoshB]

AGAIN, LET ME BE CLEAR. I AM ONLY REFERRING TO THEO. I have never been on another trail but after 2 years at Theo, I have seen this happen too frequently. If you aren't going by there daily, then I find it hard to believe you can speak to this intelligently. You are assuming that I have no idea what I'm talking about and just ranting for no reason. You should consider that maybe, people not affiliated with the MORC clique, have ideas or ways things could be improved.

You make my points for me. MORC is a clique but it it has the ability to open/close Theo whenever they deem fit. With that comes the responsibility to post that information as soon as possible, not days later. The problem I have, is that those few people that can open/close it, don't update the site. Then they also complain about when people outside their little clique are ridinig on it when they think it is too wet, yet the gates are open. Honestly, is it really that hard to update gate openings/closings within a couple of hours of it happening? I'm not exaggerating when it could be hours, sometimes even days before Theo updates that information. Since MORC is volunteering to maintain this public trail, then they need to do a better job of informing the public. That really isn't too much to ask. If the people that have the keys to open/close the gates at Theo think it is too much to ask, then they shouldn't have the keys, period. Give it to someone else that can make better updates. I'm not asking for real time updates or even up to the minute. I'm asking that it is updated within an hour or so of the gate being open/closed. Is that really so much to ask? Is it really that difficult?

MORCs condition report IS in fact something official since MORC can open/close the gates. Accordnig to everyone else, if MORC deems it is too wet to ride, then everyone should stay off it. If someone does ride on it when the gate is open, but MORC says it is too wet, they complain about it. It is either official or it is meaningless and then MORC shouldn't be allowed to open/close it, period. If it is "too wet" to ride and no one goes to close it, then you risk people riding it, no complaining.

As far as people being jerks, I'm a big boy. The only part that truly offends me is when people are accusing me of damaging the trails I have never done that. Its a 2 hour round trip for me to Theo on the weekends. I've offered to be over there when I can. If you don't understand that, I frankly don't care. I stated my issues before. Neither of them are asking too much. The problem here is MORC, is, in fact, a clique. You provide a public service but really only cater to your own members. That wreaks of private ownership when it is in fact, a public trail.

I've never insulted anyone in here. I've questioned why gates have been opened and closed and given recommendations for how I think things could be improved and all I've been given in return is grief. You pay to be a member of MORC, right? Well, great way to get new members is to just insult, make accusations, and toss aside any ideas from non-MORC members about ways that might improve the trail experience. I should have just assumed it was the MORC way or no way. There can't possibly be a better way than the way it has always been done.

Let me also say this, the Theo trail must have been done right because when it is open, it is a great ride. Who ever is maintaining it, making upgrades, etc, does a great job. I just find it hard to believe that it is ever so difficult to update the Theo trail conditions. Honestly, there should be a standard that if you can't update the trail conditions online within a couple of hours, you need to either contact someone else that can, or don't open/close the trail. Is that so hard?


Yealry post on MORC Forum...be kind

Josh...buddy...Not going to attack you or citicize you...you make a few good points. Since i would assume that 90% of people that ride wet trails probably never even heard of this Forum I think the time would be better spent with better reward if the energy was spent coming up with better ideas to educate onsite riders. I get newbies are on here all the time so i see the need...but a larger audiance is most likely not here on the forum...they are on the trails causing ruts...and you can't blame someone that is unknowlegiable... I also find the conditon reports wishy washy from time to time...my fav "its raining at my house"...like i know where you live or how much it is raining. Funny.

All that said, Josh, the conditon report on the forum is not the "official" anything. Its data..its information...all to help you to make the best decsion on laoding up your bike. You drive in and its wet (unless its a date with your GF) you wasted your time...risk/reward buddy...thats the game...make the best decsion on the information that is provided...raifall amount/when it stopped/ how much time has past/how warm/wind/soil content/MORC forum...whatever...it is on you to make that call. I, like you, have to drive an hour to get to a trail...so you better bet your bottom bracket I'm going to make the best decsion that i can to make sure I am not wasting the trip..but yes on occasion my passion to melt dirt with my knobbies over takes my common sense that tells me the trail is too wet to ride.

And Yes there is a MORC clique...why wouldnt there be...its not a big deal though. You can either join it or not...I'm not...but i sure know a few of them (and they are all losers :) ) If people are being mean or offensive to you then they are jerks...its not MORC..its people...there everywhere. So suck it up buttercup :)...its just life....if its MORC..politics...chuckie cheese...or whatever...your going to run into them....just understand people in MORC get passionate...just like you...when there passion is threatened...just be glad our passion is MTB and not dog grooming.

All in all i dont know of any organization....and trust me i ride and race trails EVERYWHERE...that gives a more relaible up to date condition report on there trail systems....and it it is done on a volunteer level. Its not perfect...but its a whole lot better then nothing.

Also Greendog is a jerk...most people that go to the big wheels get that way...something about that extra 3" of wheel diameter makes then feel superior :) (j/k Charles...we need go on a ride soon...its been to long)

Ever notice how tempers flare when the trails are wet..make you realize how much riding affects our social and mental well being...on that note..IS THERE GOING TO BE A TRAIL OPEN TOMORROW..OPINION?? ..havnt been on MN dirt since getting back from racing in CO...

[mara]

Trail condition updates are always made within a couple hours, max, of checking the trail. The weak link in updating is me - I don't have a cell phone and can't update until I ride home.

The trail cannot be posted open, closed, tacky, wet, or anything else until it is checked. We're not clairvoyant and do not want to give anyone bad information.

Josh, I'd be happy to meet with you after work on a Wednesday some time during trailwork. Perhaps having a face-to-face conversation will help us resolve this and any other issues you may have.

Until that happens, can *everyone* let this part of the discussion die quietly? Please?

[aschendel]

Simple question, I apologize if it is obvious and I've missed the answer: Does MORC actually control the gates at Theo?

a.s.

[mara]

Simple question, I apologize if it is obvious and I've missed the answer: Does MORC actually control the gates at Theo?


Yes and no.

We control the gates as far as physically opening and closing them, but the MPRB has set a very specific standard of when the trail should be open or closed and we follow it very carefully.

[dave t]

Yes and no.

We control the gates as far as physically opening and closing them, but the MPRB has set a very specific standard of when the trail should be open or closed and we follow it very carefully.
And, for those interested, where would one find trail conditions posted if MORC/MOCA were to stop posting them at all and only open and close the gate according to MPRB guidelines?

[mara]

And, for those interested, where would one find trail conditions posted if MORC/MOCA were to stop posting them at all and only open and close the gate according to MPRB guidelines?

At this time, the MPRB has not linked conditions back to the Theo page on their website. Instead, they refer people back to the MORC or MOCA websites. They do, however, have a very nice page on rules and etiquette that describes when trail riding is appropriate. It's the first thing you see on the page!

[widespot]

Mara, I will find out how it works with my employer and shoot you a PM.


Sent using Tapatalk

[mara]

Mara, I will find out how it works with my employer and shoot you a PM.


You are a banana-worthy good person! Thanks for looking out for us! :crazybanana:

[aschendel]

Yes and no.
We control the gates as far as physically opening and closing them, but the MPRB has set a very specific standard of when the trail should be open or closed and we follow it very carefully.

That's cool.

So to summarize recent developments - Josh checks MORC's Conditions thread and has seen no posts stating Trail Closed but then arrives and finds it closed, he doesn't ride(!) in spite of the inconvenience and subjectivity of the conditions, then watches the thread but sees no updates for, in some cases, days. Apparently Josh doesn't post his findings in the Trail Conditions thread.

Mara contends that within 2 hours of (at least) her checking the trail (and presumably opening or closing the gates as needed) the conditions are updated, and that there is no way to ascertain ahead of time (due to her unfortunate lack of clairvoyant skills) what will be found at the trail during a forthcoming inspection.

A couple small final questions before I butt out; does anyone who does not update the thread (or notify someone who does update the thread) open or close the gates? And does every "state change" of the gates always get an update on the conditions thread? Just trying to see if there is a logical reason for the significant disconnect between Josh and Mara / the gates / the thread.

a.s.

[mara]

A couple small final questions before I butt out; does anyone who does not update the thread (or notify someone who does update the thread) open or close the gates? And does every "state change" of the gates always get an update on the conditions thread? Just trying to see if there is a logical reason for the significant disconnect between Josh and Mara / the gates / the thread.

Please don't be too hard on Josh. He may not have worded his comments the same way you would have, but we're meeting to talk in person and I'm confident that we'll both walk away from it better understanding each other and what happens at Theo.

Everyone who has the ability to open or close the gates knows they need to post the information as soon as possible. The same goes for dirt bosses who check the trail and see a status change, even if does not result in an opening or closure. The people who do this are really good folks who spend a bunch of time running back and forth to Theo checking on things. They deserve thanks. Any criticisms or complaints should be directed at me. That's my job.

[Ish]

Please don't be too hard on Josh. .
You have a heart of gold and the patience of a saint!

[Guy Incognito]

You have a heart of gold and the patience of a saint!

+1

I think there are a lot of people on this forum, including myself, that could take a lesson in how to deal with people.

Mara is there something I could elect u too or vote for you on :)

[mara]

You guys are very kind but believe me, it's selfish. Mountain biking is my happy place, therefore everyone who is mountain bikey should be happy because the world revolves around me, right? ;)

Group hug! (ducks behind tree and waits for flung objects to zoom overhead)

[bigwheel]

Mara is there something I could elect u too or vote for you on :)

Only as the most awesome trail diva on the planet, and most kick-butt girl that I know.

For those who don't know: Mara lives in St. Paul, works in Bloomington, and is Trail Steward for a Minneaplis trail. As far as I know, she doesn't even own a motorized vehicle. She rides her bike *everywhere*. As such, she is a kick-butt rider, that can quietly and politely take her old steel single-speed and kick most of our butts, despite the rest of us being on the best bikes we can conjure up.

I'm glad that Mara and Josh are getting together. Hopefully, this will turn Josh's energy and proximity to the trail into a positive and useful asset. I'm sure that the intentions are good. It just started off on a bad foot.

[Guy Incognito]

...........and

[Guy Incognito]

Only as the most awesome trail diva on the planet, and most kick-butt girl that I know.

For those who don't know: Mara lives in St. Paul, works in Bloomington, and is Trail Steward for a Minneaplis trail. As far as I know, she doesn't even own a motorized vehicle. She rides her bike *everywhere*. As such, she is a kick-butt rider, that can quietly and politely take her old steel single-speed and kick most of our butts, despite the rest of us being on the best bikes we can conjure up.

I'm glad that Mara and Josh are getting together. Hopefully, this will turn Josh's energy and proximity to the trail into a positive and useful asset. I'm sure that the intentions are good. It just started off on a bad foot.

.....and she was in the paper for being this awesome ....I know this because I saved the link that was sent to me and send it to my sister anytime she complains training is too hard...so she is also a inspiration and she prob don't know it ....

[ryank25]

Just a heads up. The wife just ran through wirth (paved trail) and said that the trail is horribly muddy. I think it will be a while before that gate opens up.