Trail related issues.

[stoneage]

Has anyone noticed that teh small rock garden at the end of the third big section (a log crossing and another garden open the next section) seems easier. A lot of the rocks have been pushed into a pile so now you cross one small rock and then it is clear sailing. :(
Trying to stabilize the area. I guess there isn't a way to stop the weenies from short cutting, except to enlarge the garden. Please don't arrange the rocks or short cut. The garden is there for a reason. To keep the speed down at the trail crossing.

[manual63]

Trying to stabilize the area. I guess there isn't a way to stop the weenies from short cutting, except to enlarge the garden. Please don't arrange the rocks or short cut. The garden is there for a reason. To keep the speed down at the trail crossing.

When we were at Theo last Saturday (mmmm....beer), I saw a woman try to miss the rock garden that's just before one of the ski trails. She went the the left of the rocks and then clipped a tree with her bars. She had to dab and I thought is was great that she could not clear around the rocks. Ride them or walk them if you can't. Yes, it is okay to get off your bike. Better than blasting across the ski trial at full speed and risk hitting a hiker.

[Tim Wegner]

Ran into a guy today that had his hand in a cast. Knowing he also rode motorcycle I asked which one of his motorcycles he was on when it happened.

Wasn't on my motorcycle he said, was riding my mountain bike. So I asked which trail around here (cambridge area) were you riding when it happened. Not here he said---it was at Theo Wirth. He wanted to know who did the design work, so thinkin' he was looking for someone to sue---I said Shawn Seeley and some washed up old IMBA rep.

He looked at me and said --I know your not Shawn so that means you must be the old IMBA rep. I said yup guilty as charged. He said "Thanks for making the trails so hard, it is my fault that I broke my hand. I wasn't paying attention and landed wrong on the trail. Don't change the trail a bit, I have ridden it many times and this is a lesson to me not to think I have a trail mastered. I asked So you are not looking to sue?? He said for what because I was an idiot and relaxed on the trail when I should not have?? Nah--it just means I had to make sure the doctor set my hand in such a way so I can still ride my road bike after all in 5 days I am going to Europe to watch the tour.

So not everyone that gets hurt on the trail is looking for someone else to blame for not paying attention but is willing to take responsiblity for his own action.

TW

[syntaxjunkie]

So not everyone that gets hurt on the trail is looking for someone else to blame for not paying attention but is willing to take responsiblity for his own action.

I feel bad for the guy (broken bones, as a rule, suck). But I'm glad to hear about a rider who's willing to own up to risks and responsibilities. And I'm damn glad he's the rule and not the exception.

[Buck]

I feel bad for the guy (broken bones, as a rule, suck). But I'm glad to hear about a rider who's willing to own up to risks and responsibilities. And I'm damn glad he's the rule and not the exception.

Still going through PT and doctor appointments I can tell you that broken bones are way better then sliced and diced tendons, nerves, and arteries!!! Cool that the dude owned up to his mistake!
L8R
Buck

[Wheels]

Well this thread has dropped a bit, maybe if I get mod for this forum I can stick it. ;)

Speaking of sticking it, we stuck tonight's meeting with the Minneapolis Park and Rec Board (MPRB (http://minneapolisparks.org/)) on the MPRB Staff recommendation regarding the proposed designation of a buffer zone around the Eloise Butler Flower Gardens.

It's been a hot issue, with residents, the Friends of Eloise Butler (a volunteer community group like MOCA), and the XC ski group all getting together for the public input portion of the Staff evaluation. In a series of three evening meetings, the groups met with the MPRB Environmentalist and Gardner to evaluate the current state of the park.

The area under evaluation is the portion of Theodore Wirth containing the Eloise Butler Flower Gardens - Wayzata Blvd. (394) on the south, Theodore Wirth Parkway on the West, Glenwood Ave. on the north, and Xerxes Ave. N. on the east side.

The area is considered a nature conservancy and is on the National Register of Nature Reserves (or something to that effect). It's a unique and rare place, but it's in need of attention in a bad way. The photos showing the difference between what it once was, and what it is today are amazing - buckthorn has completely changed the landscape and stunted the natural regeneration process of the old oak savanna.

We learned tonight that all of the pine trees in the parks were planted when the park was first created under Theo Wirth - amazing...there are some great pine stands in the parks - we have trails through a few of them.

I digress, the meeting was a bit chaotic - as the entire board was present, but business being conducted was for the Planning Committee. The Staff presented their recommendation via a PowerPoint presentation, we found out that we are not the first "extreme" sport to use the park - there was once a ski jump right next to the Flower Gardens, I think it was in the '40's.

The only thing in the Staff's recommendation that caught my attention was one of the Committee's 5 staff requirements for the recommendation - "to reaffirm the biking restriction" for this area of the park. A moot point, as there is a park ordinance specifically for that area of Theo - but a potential sticking point on any current negotiations.

After the Staff presented the recommendation, the planning committee went into recess while the board took care of two other issues - but not before
Commissioner Walt Dziedzic (http://minneapolisparks.org/default.asp?PageID=36&commissioner_id=17) made a motion to delay decision on the acceptance of the recommendation. We were a bit surprised, it was a positive indication - and we hadn't even had a chance to speak yet. Comm. Dziedzic was asked to withhold his motion while the Committee moved on to the next order of business - meaning we'd have to wait to talk.

We took the opportunity to huddle the MOCA, MORC and IMBA representatives that were signed up to speak and get our ducks in a row - as we would each only get a minute and half to plead our case. Speaking were MOCA Pres. Peter McKinney, MOCA's Matt Moore, myself, MORC's Scott Thayer, Bill O'Rielly and IMBA's Erik Gerrits.

The whole right side of the room was filled with cyclists - it was a great showing - thanks everyone, MORC trail bosses filled half a row, I saw one rider with his baby, for all of those people to show up to not speak a word but simply be counted when Erik asked them to raise there hands - it was very cool, I think the Board was impressed - I know I was. Thanks to all of you.

After getting bumped from the top spot to speak (twice) Pete finally got up and gave his best one and half minute pitch (about a third of his notes), we each marched up and got our message out.

When everyone was done speaking the Board revisited Dziedzic's motion - but before it was discussed, Commissioner Vivian Mason (http://minneapolisparks.org/default.asp?PageID=36&commissioner_id=18) was allowed to make a "suggestion" to the Planning Committee (Butler is in her district, but she is not on the Planning Committee) - that suggestion being the request for Staff to work with the Friends of Eloise Butler, the XC ski group, and - yes MOCA! to create a comprehensive plan for the area.

The Planning Commissioners accepted the suggestion and the motion was amended, blah, blah, blah - procedural stuff and more discussion happened alright...

Bottom line, we've got a seat at the table on this deal. MOCA will appoint a planning representative and provide technical assistance like GPS evaluations. As we were leaving the meeting MPRB Administrators were discussing the addition of the plan as part of the 2006 budget discussion that followed our meeting. So things are rolling.

Nice job everyone - I don't think there's any doubt that this one goes in the win column. It's a result of not only the quiet crowd of supporters that showed up - but the way we've handled ourselves over the last three and half years. We've earned respect and trust, and as Commissioner John Olson (http://minneapolisparks.org/default.asp?PageID=36&commissioner_id=27) said as he was praising or efforts "we placed tight restrictions on this group, and we were understandably weary in our initial approach to working with them - but this group has proven itself to perform...they do what they say they will"

So it's back to work - we'll start on trail work next wednesday. We're going to be working in smaller teams for much of the summers - we won't be doing any bench cutting - a lot of armoring, so get ready. :)

[thebionicman]

It was Pete that asked everyone to raise there hands...:banana:


One thing that Scott mentioned in the other thread that I wanted to remind everyone here. MOUNTAIN BIKING IS STILL BANNED IN THE AREA SURROUNDING ELOISE BUTLER!

So please stay out of there, this is the first step in getting dedicated mountain bike trails in this area. We still have a lot of work to do. It was great seeing everyone come out to support this issue. I think it supprised a lot of people.

Now lets get out there and show them how great we can make the trails.

[noise_is_life]

The meeting was cool (I forgot how long it takes them to get to the point), but that's entirely too long for a Clyde to sit on a tiny little folding chair, I'm sure John Schmidt was about ready to smack me with all of my fidgeting. :D

So how are we going to fix the pot holes that are forming in some of the flat sections.

We also need to fix the armored gulley in "Zip" (had to look that up, wanted to call it zone 4). It's a mess and I feel partially responsible for it.

[Trevize1138]

One thing that Scott mentioned in the other thread that I wanted to remind everyone here. MOUNTAIN BIKING IS STILL BANNED IN THE AREA SURROUNDING ELOISE BUTLER!

Indeed, Comissioner Marie Hauser (http://www.minneapolisparks.org/default.asp?PageID=36&commissioner_id=21) is eager to see the rogue trails closed in the park and eventually replaced with legitimate trails. She, along with the other board members, fully understands that simply closing rogue trails and then not creating legitimate trails only invites more rogue trail building.

They recognize that MORC and MOCA are providing some great solutions, and we're not the ones responsible for the rogue trails in their parks. We're starting to come of age, people! :banana:

[Aaroneous]

Are there going to be any weekend trail work days this summer? I'm always booked for Wednesdays...

[noise_is_life]

Are there going to be any weekend trail work days this summer? I'm always booked for Wednesdays...

Somebody asked Tom that very question on Saturday, his answer was....NO!

We've had a month off, but people are still a bit burned out, so we'll have to play it by ear.

[Aaroneous]

Somebody asked Tom that very question on Saturday, his answer was....NO!

Fine. I won't help then. ;)

I was really looking forward to helping find that corpse...

[mara]

Are there going to be any weekend trail work days this summer? I'm always booked for Wednesdays...

So far we've found a trail boss who will lead a weekend session, but we currently do not have a person to Sherpa the tools. If and when we figure something out, weekends will be a go. { Silly bike-riding trails bosses -- what could they be thinking? :crazy2: }

[Aaroneous]

So far we've found a trail boss who will lead a weekend session, but we currently do not have a person to Sherpa the tools. If and when we figure something out, weekends will be a go. { Silly bike-riding trails bosses -- what could they be thinking? :crazy2: }

So we just need a person with a car to get the tools from wherever to the Wirth parking lot? Or someone with a BOB to get them from the lot to the trail? Or both?

[mara]

So we just need a person with a car to get the tools from wherever to the Wirth parking lot? Or someone with a BOB to get them from the lot to the trail? Or both?

We would need someone to coordinate with the Keeper of Tools to get them to and from the par three parking lot. If you're interested in volunteering, let me know and I'll find out who you need to work with. Right now our tools are a bit scattered. By tomorrow, we should know where they will be living.

Yippee, trailwork! :banana:

Extra bananas for trailworkers! :banana: :banana: :banana:

[manual63]

We would need someone to coordinate with the Keeper of Tools to get them to and from the par three parking lot. If you're interested in volunteering, let me know and I'll find out who you need to work with. Right now our tools are a bit scattered. By tomorrow, we should know where they will be living.

Yippee, trailwork! :banana:

Extra bananas for trailworkers! :banana: :banana: :banana:

I should talk with my dad. He has both a F-150 and a Minivan that is beat up enough to haul tools. He uses them for work during the week, but not on the weekends. I will find out and get back to ya all!

[Wheels]

I've been the keeper - but they're usually just sitting in the back of my Trooper, so I could do a hide-a-key thing and we could trade off. I can help on weekends too - we just need to herd the cats again and get going on a regular schedule so everyone knows what to expect.

[HandsOn]

So not everyone that gets hurt on the trail is looking for someone else to blame for not paying attention but is willing to take responsiblity for his own action.

TW

Located in Uptown at Lk Calhoun, I have a fair amount of experience with injuried Theo trail users, and bicycists' injuries in general. I have yet to encounter any off-road cyclist looking to spread the blame, although I cannot say the same of other cyclists who may have been grounded by on-road, paved trail and sidewalk conditions including pot holes, tar, etc.

The off-road injuries can be quite facinating - and if any further trail signage is warranted, a marker advising/reminding riders to control their speed over the 3 jumps section near the end of the main circuit would go a long way toward reducing my business.

Doc.

[Wheels]

Trail report 7:28:05

We completed a fairly uneventful night of trail maintenance on wednesday with a dozen or more trail builders showing up - ages ranged from 15 to 59, very nice...

So we worked in Conundrum and Snake, we reclaimed the area between the two sections where the old wall was being used as a gap jump. BTK went a bit crazy and ended up closing the badly eroded walking trail as well (let's see if the Trail Fairies don't open it up again).

We removed some more garbage - old scrap metal. Erik pinned the inside of the armored climb and I took a crew along the trail doing de-berming, removing roots, and nicking sections that didn't have the duff removed far enough when we built the trail - so water was collecting. You can identify these spots by the pools of sand on the downside of the slope.

The week after next we'll do the same for Hoeg's and Twister (no trailwork next week due the the Tree and Fauna workshops with the MPRB).

If you are a regular trail builder, or plan on being more active in the future - you should come out next wednesday for the Tree and Fauna workshop. If for no other reason than to know what poison ivy looks like :) - but we're going to learn about all the native and invasive plants from the MPRB's gardener and environmentalist.

I'll post more on this soon - but it's next wednesday at 5:00 - par 3 lot.

Go ride.

[mcarples]

first log crossing of the trail (right after the water bar) is in dire need of a fix me up...however, tomorrow is wednesday so I'm sure we'll get there.

[gopherhockey]

Can I borrow the rock mover you guys have? We have a bunch of busted up concrete at Leb that would really be nice to move near the trail before Dakota goes and mows the area its sitting in.

Let me know, and how I can get a hold of it... thanks!

P.S. Can someone post the tool inventory that any/all Theo people have currently in the Dirt Boss forum? Thanks!!

[FSSS]

Saw a dead crow just off the trail somewhere between A9 and A12 (right near A10 if I remember right).

West Nile????? I hope not.

I reported it - so someone from the Dept. of Health may be checking it out.

Might want to put on a nice coat of Deet before you ride Theo.

[stoneage]

Saw a dead crow just off the trail somewhere between A9 and A12 (right near A10 if I remember right).

West Nile????? I hope not.

I reported it - so someone from the Dept. of Health may be checking it out.

Might want to put on a nice coat of Deet before you ride Theo.
Not a good sign. Crows don't usually die in 'public'. Always report a crow, or a robin. They may be the main target according to an article in the Strib last week.

[Aaroneous]

Not a good sign. Crows don't usually die in 'public'. Always report a crow, or a robin. They may be the main target according to an article in the Strib last week.

Yeah, that was weird. I had a little tingling of bad juju when I rode by that. The strange part was how it was positioned - wings folded, flat on it's stomach with it's head pointed straight out perpendicular to the trail - like it was placed there. Unnatural...
Maybe the anti-MTB groups are resorting to voodoo?

[noise_is_life]

OK, I must have read this too fast the first time. I saw "dead cow" and it itched at the back of my brain all weekend why we were being so calm about a DEAD COW at Theo. :)

OK, Dead Crow, we reported a dead crow on our property when the West Nile furvor started a couple of years ago, but didn't get too much response. Crows do die on there own sometimes.

[jitterjepp]

OK, I must have read the too fast the first time. I saw "dead cow" and it itched at the back of my brain all weekend why we were being so calm about a DEAD COW at Theo. :)

OK, Dead Crow, we reported a dead crow on our property when the West Nile furvor started a couple of years ago, but didn't get too much response. Crows do die on there own sometimes.
I suspect foul play.

[FSSS]

OK, I must have read this too fast the first time. I saw "dead cow" and it itched at the back of my brain all weekend why we were being so calm about a DEAD COW at Theo.

That is frickin' HILARIOUS!!! :crazy2:

[gordanfreeman]

That is frickin' HILARIOUS!!! :crazy2: i read 'cow' my first time thro as well :geek:

[col200]

I've done about 6 laps now with the crow still laying there and it STILL freaks me out everytime I pass it. I think the headlamp makes it even worse...looks like something from The Blair Witch Project. :shocked:

[Earthman]

I've done about 6 laps now with the crow still laying there and it STILL freaks me out everytime I pass it. I think the headlamp makes it even worse...looks like something from The Blair Witch Project. :shocked:

Nice, so there's a dead crow which could have possibly died from West Nile and now there's blood! Sounds like a crime scene. Knowing the history of the land, you're not the first to leave DNA samples in the woods! :D

the crow was not missing last night " MMMM crow " or at least i did not see it. as far as leaving my DNA around wirth i am only leaving blood becuase in more recent history there has been a lot of the " other kind" of DNA left around the park and mostly in the fields which i do not plan on leaving around wirth unless i have a really bad fall and something gets ripped open.

[FSSS]

The crow was mentioned to Reed last Wed. He said he'd contact the MPRB maintenance people and they'd take care of it.

I'd guess that the crow isn't a 'trail feature' anymore.

[stoneage]

The crow was mentioned to Reed last Wed. He said he'd contact the MPRB maintenance people and they'd take care of it.

I'd guess that the crow isn't a 'trail feature' anymore.
You have probably noticed that I have started to use crow carcasses for pinning the trail. You will also see that the path bends correctly around the body of the animal; much more efficient than rocks as far as I can see. Seriously, I have started to pin where necessary to ensure stability. Got a little done on Dingo on Saturday; just got tired of hauling rocks. Patched up a little in North Star and White Pine, also.

[manual63]

I saw some of your pinning last night. Looked like a good job to me. Accept one rock you had to pin the trail was easier for me to just bunny hop.....rather than go around it....:)

[FSSS]

The Carsonite trail sign at the first "Y" of the north loop (A4 on the map) is gone again. This is the second time someone has removed it. The first time it was just thrown in the woods nearby. I couldn't find it this time.

Why??
Maybe to try and get people to ride it backwards and cause an accident??

Maybe because they like to ride it backwards??

Whatever...

We hope to get a new one up ASAP, and if you see anyone screwing around with the new one, call 911 - it is vandalism and a safety issue.


Thanks,
tp

[jitterjepp]

The Carsonite trail sign at the first "Y" of the north loop (A4 on the map) is gone again. This is the second time someone has removed it. The first time it was just thrown in the woods nearby. I couldn't find it this time.

Why??
Maybe to try and get people to ride it backwards and cause an accident??

Maybe because they like to ride it backwards??

Whatever...

We hope to get a new one up ASAP, and if you see anyone screwing around with the new one, call 911 - it is vandalism and a safety issue.


Thanks,
tp
Will the park let us put it in with cement?

[Wheels]

Hi all,

I haven't posted for awhile about MOCA biz, so thought I'd bring everyone up to date.

For those that missed it - we had an election. Pete Crabtree is the new Trail Steward, Mara Larson is the the new VP, Shad Holland is the secretary/treasurer and I'm your new Presidente´. BTK (Tom Anderson) is still the man on the trail (Dirt Boss).

We're currently in the process of becoming a full-fledged MORC Chapter - we're just down to the details on that one, and it won't effect your riding experience whatsoever (but it makes us all one big happy family).

More importantly, there are some big things on the horizon in the way of more trails. The initial evaluation has come back from the MPRB and it's mostly positive. The final evaluation is in the works, and will likely lead to us being a fully functional organization within the city, much as the City of Lakes Lopet (COLL) group is.

Once that has happened we will be able to begin acquiring more places to build trail.

Here's what we have in the works on that front:

1. We are involved in the overlay plan for shared use of the areas of Theo between 394 and Glenwood ave. The plan will be developed by the MPRB, COLL (skiers), Friends of Eluoise Butler, Bryn Mahw Association, MOCA, and the MN chapter of the Audibon Scociety. If all goes well we can begin building trail in 2007.

2. I met this week with Keith Prussing, President of the Cedar Lake Park Association. He and John Munger, President of COLL invited us to review the plans for the soon to be contructed connector for the ski trail - which will pretty much wipe out the trails north of 21st St.

They are aware that even though the trails in that area are not sanctioned that there could be some uproar from the MTB community when they're gone.

The fact of the matter is, we knew that these trails would be lost if we wanted to build legit trails - as much of what is there is in the flats and is not sustainable - ironically the area that they are proposing for a MOCA trail is exactly where we wanted to be - on the side slope along the RR tracks for the entire length of the park.

Keep in mind, this is just prelim work - but it was a very positive experiencen on all fronts. We'll lose some trail now that we would have lost anyway, and when we do get past our pilot eval we have the Cedar Lakes Park Association willing to give us the land we need and want to build sustainable trail.

There's even a good chance that they can help us with funding for the build - something we always need to build good features (besides labor that is).

3. In the big loop at Sweeny/Twin Lakes - we've been asked by COLL to give up a small piece of the yet to be developed area of zone 6 - a small triangle near the gate on the gravel road. We've given our blessing and appreciate the openness of COLL and their consultation with us on this matter.

They want to take advantage of a 3 hill rolling climb up from the golf course, and we're not giving up much - so it's win-win.

4. Upon completion of the Pilot and subsequent approval to begin further planning (and after finishing the expert loop at TwinLakes) we will have a few projects that are already approved.

- an better entrance at the main gate that uses the downhill for entering.

- an expert line on nother Dingo (the one we just finished with the cement tiles).

- a couple of adjustments/reroutes on the existing trails

- and of course the expert loop on(6a/6b) - (see the first page of this thread for photos/maps).

Our first order of business in the way of new trails is Brownie and the area between Glenwood and 55. If you live in either of these areas you could really help out by showing your support when the flyers start hitting your neighborhoods.

That's enough eh?

Go ride before it snows. :)

[Wheels]

Will the park let us put it in with cement?

I suggested some nice 3-side stone Oblesks, seriously. We could make molds and pour them out of cement with reliefs for the tags.

[manual63]

If you haven't heard or noticed, the rollers have kind of been cut down or lowered. This was an emergency fix that Pete and I had to do. The second roller had a huge sink hole on it's side, just an inch from the tread and it was caving in. This was too dangerous to leave, so we used a lot of dirt/sand to fill in the hole. Then we took down the first roller and used it's dirt to start the table I have been talking about all this time. This was some quick work, but knowing many people had endo issues with the first roller, it was too close to the first jump off the hill, and knowing we want a table in here, a nice safe one, I think it was the right move. Right now the table is really small and low. When we have more time, this will get built up to be a little larger, but still safe and rollable for those who don't want to jump it. I hope people like this new fix and I hope the big sink hole doesn't reappear.

If anyone notices something like this here or anywhere else, please report it to us ASAP. I am glad no one fell in the hole....:shocked:

[homebrewbiker]

I just tried to ride the new rock downhill and I just can't do it. I must have tried at least 6 - 10 times, the closest I came was about 1/2 way and ended up to the side in the woods.

The things I don't like about it:

1. The entrance is pretty tricky to get right so you hit the first BIG rock straight on.

2. All of that rabble to the right are starting to roll onto the trail and make it even tougher (I did some cleanup thinking that was my problem).

3. I think it is too narrow for some riders (like me)

OK having said that, I'm still OK with not being able to ride stuff. And I'm sure with some more attempts perhaps I will get to the point to where I can ride the damn thing (first time I tried last week I hit the brakes too hard and went flying off of my bike, so I think I'm kind of scared of it now). And trying to ride it at night maybe makes it look a lot scarier than trying it in the daytime (at least I can lett myself that until I try it during the daytime ;) ).

However, it kind of comes out of nowhere, there isn't much warning and I can usually ride the qualifier and can't really ride this (but I also am not a huge fan of riding rocks either). I am not advocating taking it away or making it less challenging, but I think a more significant qualifier might be in order.

[Wheels]

Thanks Will,

I came off the qualifier the first time I tried, still think it can be tricky...

I think the rocks could be wider as well - we'd like to do quite a bit more work on it, but we ran out of time and materials.

I'm glad to hear that it's that difficult (not glad to hear you're having a hard time with it) - but the spec on this thing as I mentioned way back - is that it should be "almost" unrideable.

We have to have things in the system that push your limits, or you'll never expand them.

Keep trying...

[mara]

The original intent of the armoring was to avoid and protect the large oak and pine roots running quite near the surface in that area. We found that once the main armor line was in place, we couldn't add rocks on either side to make it wider without digging out or severly damaging those tree roots. We will either have to leave it narrow or redesign the whole deal -- maybe with larger rocks and a raised armoring like the uphill in zone one.

[homebrewbiker]

The original intent of the armoring was to avoid and protect the large oak and pine roots running quite near the surface in that area. We found that once the main armor line was in place, we couldn't add rocks on either side to make it wider without digging out or severly damaging those tree roots. We will either have to leave it narrow or redesign the whole deal -- maybe with larger rocks and a raised armoring like the uphill in zone one.

I think it is OK to leave, but I think there needs to be more rocks between the qualifier and the armored downhill to reinforce to bikers that let users know that they are in an expert section. As it is now, there is the qualifier (which looks harder than it is), then very mundane trail, and then this thing which I find to be much harder than it looks. I think especially people who have not ridden the trail for awhile will get surprised.

I am sure with some work and learning to ignore that voice in my head that keeps saying "Don't do it ...Don't do it ... you'll regret it ..." I will be able to get through it (eventually). But it is tricky.

[mara]

I am sure with some work and learning to ignore that voice in my head that keeps saying "Don't do it ...Don't do it ... you'll regret it ..." I will be able to get through it (eventually). But it is tricky.

The voice in your head should get together with the voices in my head -- they seem to have a lot in common. My voices skip over the regret part, though, and go right to "you're going to die!"

[ryno lite]

I have the same wimpy voices in my head also! Damn!

[FSSS]

The new gravel entrance at Hwy 55 is open.

The new entrance will go through some more changes, but it's now rideable.

Please use the new gravel entrance - the old trail is blocked and covered.

[FSSS]

FYI...

The new gravel entrance at Hwy 55 is open and complete. :)

The potholes on Skyline are filled. :)

There is a new jump at the bottom of the Enchanted Forest downhill. :D


tp

[redwood]

The fact of the matter is, we knew that these trails would be lost if we wanted to build legit trails - as much of what is there is in the flats and is not sustainable

Sorry to be a persistent thorn in your side, Shawn. But explain this flat land issue to me as it relates to cedar lake. Yes, of course i understand that water has to flow off the trial and not sit on it lest puddles and mud form. That's pretty obvious and that's why the new wirth trails dry out so quick. but in reference to this section of cedar lake, the super curvy flat single track north of hidden beach has been there a long time and actually gets tons of traffic. It's flat as florida, and yet it is in great shape. What gives?

[mcarples]

but in reference to this section of cedar lake, the super curvy flat single track north of hidden beach has been there a long time and actually gets tons of traffic. It's flat as florida, and yet it is in great shape. What gives?

First of all, the cedar trails see way less use than the theo trails do...its not even comparable. But also, after a rain, it takes cedar about two days to really be dry, whereas theo takes about 6 hours. Although I do agree that the cedar trails are in real good shape considering the buildsing techniques and lack of maintenance, I do not feel that they would hold up to the constant use that a legal trail receives.

[Wheels]

Sorry to be a persistent thorn in your side, Shawn. But explain this flat land issue to me as it relates to cedar lake. Yes, of course i understand that water has to flow off the trial and not sit on it lest puddles and mud form. That's pretty obvious and that's why the new wirth trails dry out so quick. but in reference to this section of cedar lake, the super curvy flat single track north of hidden beach has been there a long time and actually gets tons of traffic. It's flat as florida, and yet it is in great shape. What gives?

Not a thorn at all, I'm intimately familiar with the trail you've mentioned ;)

Matt is right, doesn't get as much traffic as others. As well, the soil has a higher sand content in there - so it dries a bit faster.

I've been keeping an eye on it this season, and I would say it doesn't dry as fast as our sustainable trail - but does dry faster than some of the legacy trail at Wirth like Skyline.

It only takes one really wet season to completely blow out a trail like Brownie once traffic increases, we want to make sure that doesn't happen.

I believe the land that the Cedar Lake Park Association is offering up is the only terrain in Cedar that can support sustainable trail.

Once the ski trail goes through the rest is going to be gone anyway, and it's pretty hard for us to promote sustainability on one hand, and make a fight for trail that - although fun to ride - is simply not sustainable in the long-run.

I hate to loose it as much as anyone, but things change - and we're getting terrain in other parts of the system that we wouldn't have access to had we not gotten legit.

Hang in there, it's all coming together.

[redwood]

First of all, the cedar trails see way less use than the theo trails do...its not even comparable. But also, after a rain, it takes cedar about two days to really be dry, whereas theo takes about 6 hours. Although I do agree that the cedar trails are in real good shape considering the buildsing techniques and lack of maintenance, I do not feel that they would hold up to the constant use that a legal trail receives.

Yeah, 2 days sounds about right.

As far as the maintainence goes, it may lack oficial trail work but obviously work gets done. I often remove down trees, pick out glass, etc from those trails just because I'm in the neighborhood and i ride there all the time. But I've noticed that If I'm gone for a month, the trail still gets cleared, so there are other people chipping in too.

[Burke]

What's the official winter use policy for the Wirth mtb trail? (when) Does it get shut down for winter?

[stoneage]

The original thought was to let it be used for snow shoeing, which would deaerate the snow, which could then be biked on, which would keep it softer for the snow shoers, etc, etc, but I don't know what they are thinking now. My thought would be to leave it open, and I have never heard different from the MPRB. We rode it all last winter.

[col200]

I never thought about snowshoeing Theo. Good idea! I'm gonna try it this winter. I suppose I could snow shoe anywhere in the woods huh?

[Wheels]

We're open all winter - snowshoeing is encouraged.

It's get's a bit icey in parts - spikes help.

[homebrewbiker]

In case anyone who is not a member hasn't seen this, there is a special section on Minneapolis in the "Silent Sports" article in this month's Lifetime Fitness magazine. It talks about the City of Lakes Loppet, and the Theo Wirth Pilot project as well of mention of a pending whitewater park??

Pretty cool to see pub on a project that some of us have put many hours into :banana: :banana: :banana:

[FSSS]

Any good quotes?

[homebrewbiker]

Here is the relevant text from Experience Magazine:

“... he [R T Rybak] teamed with the Minneapolis Park an Recreation Board - and a slew of eager volunteered from the nonprofit Minneapolis Off_Road Cycling Advocates - to create the first official mountain-bike trail in Minneapolis, in Theodore Wirth Park, to encourage more cycling and cut down on random off-roading …”

[Thunder]

It seems we have some important decisions to make today, November 8, that will influence the quantity and quality of mountain biking in the city. Who are our biggest supporters in local government (besides Rybak)? Who do we want to elect to the park board?

[syntaxjunkie]

It seems we have some important decisions to make today, November 8, that will influence the quantity and quality of mountain biking in the city. Who are our biggest supporters in local government (besides Rybak)? Who do we want to elect to the park board?
MORC's status as a nonprofit organization is contingent upon NOT lobbying for or endorsing any political candidate. That said, these forums exist for the expression of opinions. If people out there have direct knowledge or experience with the positions of any of the candidates for Park Board, City Council and other offices, vis-a-vis mountain biking, they are welcome to share that information.

[manual63]

Support the candidate that drinks the most beer. They are surely to be on our side in that case......:)

That is, as long as they are not one of the "Hit and Run Drunk Driver" candidates we hear about every now and then.

[Wheels]

** These are my personal views and should in no way be construed as endorsements made by MOCA, MORC or any of their members **

I''ve looked into the candidates, but just as I was about to give an opinion - the article in the Strib about "parks preservation" hit - which basically said that the incumbents needed to be removed and that the "People for Parks" endorsements were the way to go.

Although I've spoken to all the "People for Parks" endorsed candidates - their implied positions could be counter to biker's efforts - I'm just not sure what they're getting at or how it would effect mountain bike trails in Mpls.

Seems to be much to do about nothing, but their raising a stink and bikers could get sucked into it.

The Sierra Club is endorsing Berry Graves and Annie Young for "at Large" (both incumbents). They also like Tom Nordyke for "at large" - I spoke to him and think he looks good too. Tom is a biker and skier.

I'm voting for the incumbents for the most part - because they are the ones who've gotten the trails to where we are today and have the best understanding of biker's efforts.

In district 6 (my district - which include the lakes area) I like Bob Fine - who is also the Commissioner.

In district 4 (north lakes - where the trails are now), the seat being vacated by Vivian Mason, I like Tracy Nordstrom - who is a childhood friend, a garderner, and a supporter of off-road trails.

I also spoke to Scott Vreeland in district 3 (river) and like what he had to say - seems to be a very level-headed guy when comes to these issues.

For Mayor - I like RT Rybak, I think he's done a great job of running the city and I know where he stands on biking issues.

In Ward 10 (uptown) I like Ralph Remmington - not so much for the macho name :) - his opponent seems to be fixated on growth in tax base and 10-story buildings, which are actually making it harder for the current residents of Uptown to afford their taxes and to find a parking space (I can't even park on my street any more, and the constant pounding of pilings knocked my neighbors ceiling down).

His opponent is also in favor of high-speed buses on the Greenway - not cool in my book. I want to see them go the extra mile and do light rail.

Here's a link to the districts map: http://www.minneapolisparks.org/default.asp?PageID=36

For what it's worth, here are the Sierra club endorsements:

R.T. Rybak for MAYOR

CITY COUNCIL

Ward 1 - Paul Ostrow
Ward 2 - Cam Gordon
Ward 3 - Diane Hofstede
Ward 5 - Don Samuels
Ward 8 - Elizabeth Glidden
Ward 10 - Ralph Remington
Ward 11 - Scott Benson
Ward 13 - Lisa McDonald

PARK BOARD

At-Large - Rochelle Berry Graves
At-Large - Tom Nordyke
At-Large - Annie Young
District 1 - LuAnn Wilcox
District 3 - Scott Vreeland
District 4 - Tracy Nordstrom
District 5 - Jason Stone
District 6 - Jim Bernstein

[Aaroneous]

So what's the plan for trailwork this weekend? I assume we have to get those leaves up before serious freeziness/snow sets in... But it looks like it may be wet, what with the warmer temps and all...
What's worse, wet trailwork or organic material?

[mara]

This time of year stinks for planning trailwork. We have no idea how wet the ground will be and if the leaves will be frozen to it because of the snow melt that will probably happen today and tomorrow. We'll come up with our best guess sometime today and will correct ourselves if necessary, hopefully with the help of Bill, the expert on all things Theo. If he thinks raking can happen, he's probably right. Stay tuned. . .

[flombe]

What is the status/plan for the service road into the main loop area? Right now it is a mudpit disaster!

I understand the XC-ski group is doing trail work and that is great! I am guessing that they are responsible for this (if I am incorrect, I apologize).

To leave an access road in that condition makes no sense. I heard the skiiers need a flat surface for groomers, but it would seem they could put a slope on the grade to drain water and also remove the "bathtub" effect caused by the furrows created by plowing the surface.

I would be glad to call the MPRB to inquire if that would be helpful to the cause. It is a drag to ride through this new bog that was created to access the north loop. I see new work-arounds are forming as well. I assume it is not much fun to hike through as well.

Soon, all will freeze up, but I can foresee that this will be real ugly come spring.

[rideharder]

it isnt part of the ski tail system. it is an access road for the park and the golf course and i know that they have heavy truck on that road quite frequently so the odd of having it rapaired and stay that way are pretty low. plus things like that cost money and need aproval to get it done. the best thing to do is like you said contact the park board. john gonquist is the parks super.

[Wheels]

I doubt if anything will be done to improve the road until after the irrigation system for the ski trail get put in - I don't know when that's happening.

We're asking the MPRB to resurface the road with class five gravel when all is done, it needs a crown.

[stoneage]

Great turnout for the MPRB meeting tonight (12-7). Thanks to everyone who showed up to support the project and speak, and especially Matt and Shawn for a great presentation and counterpoint to the 'Friends' misinformation.
I am a worry wort, and I really hate it when people play the 'hot button' wild card to their advantage, when all of us at MOCA are just as, or more concerned, about the environmental impacts of our use than anyone. I hopefully believe that the MPRB can see through that smokescreen.

[Wheels]

Congrats to everyone!

What tonight's decision means is pretty significant - Off-road Cycling is now an official recreational activity in the City, just like any other sport like baseball or skiing.

I had a chance to talk to the President of the Friends of the Garden after the meeting and we've forged a new working relationship that will lead to a compromise on some of the territory in question - so all is looking good on that front.

We will soon develop an temporary Memorandum of Agreement with the MPRB, and will likely be working on the expert loop in '06. The rest will have to wait, as the MPRB is dedicated to answering the voter's desire to see a comprehensive 30 year plan of the park system - so I don't expect to see any concrete plans for our next steps until late next year - but we're in the game in a big way.

The Planning committee also added that they want to see trails in the river gorge, so we have a lot on the table.

Who would'a thought :)

Thanks to the silent numbers that showed up to show your support - nice job! It was nice to see so many familiar faces there tonight.

btw - you can probably catch a rebroadcast of the meeting if you're in Mpls - it's replays on public access for the next two weeks.

[flombe]

And a GARGANTUAN THANK YOU to all of you who contributed and endured to make this happen!

A quote from my 9 Y.O. daughter when I got home - "So, are the trails gonna be there next year?" YES!!!

[Aaroneous]

Whoo-hoo! :banana: :banana:

Man, was bummed I had to go to band practice just when it was gettin' good - I was really interested to hear what some of the board members had questions about. This is the first time I've ever experienced something like this first-hand, and I found the whole process really fascinating in a boring sort of way.

Big thanks and congrats are due to everyone that was, is, and will be involved with this project.

Yay trails!

[syntaxjunkie]

Regardless of my role within MORC, I am always hesitant to intentionally speak on behalf of our entire organization. Getting mountain bikers to agree on anything, including whether to call them mountain bikers or delve into the nomenclature of arcane sub-species that surrounds our sport, is well-nigh impossible.

But in this instance, I feel entirely confident that every single MORC member still turning pedals on this side of the dirt will join me in saying one thing: Thank you. To everyone who's put aside work, family and life long enough to be at a Park Board meeting or a trail work session. To all who have stood up and spoken out when it would have been easier and more comfortable to stay seated and silent. To all those who have led the design and building of new trails, and all those who have followed them, bearing Macleods, Pulaskis, about 10 tons of rock and enough willpower to move mountains. To everyone who's respected the work of these individuals enough to ride the trails responsibly, even if they didn't like the changes at first. To those who doubted whether or not mountain bikes belonged in this park, but kept their minds open enough to be convinced by the results. Thank you.

[stoneage]

Yeah, what Charles said....... :)

[Trevize1138]

Last night's meeting was a great next step for us. I say "next step" and not "victory." The Friends of the Eloise Butler Flower Gardens viewed us as a threat. We don’t. Therefore, calling it a “victory” wouldn’t be true to our point-of-view.

That said, the presentation given by their president last night did acknowledge the hard work and dedication we've displayed. They have been gradually seeing us as less and less threatening. What's more, they are now genuinely open to negotiating with us for what's best for the flower gardens and the mountain bike trails.

Here’s my vision for the future: the Friends of Eloise Butler will get "warm fuzzies" when they hear MOCA and MORC. All we have to do is what we’ve been doing successfully all along: proving ourselves.

We prove ourselves easily because we don’t recognize opposition and make good on our promises. I’m not saying we discount opposition. That denotes under-estimation or belittlement of others’ views. We believe in what we do. We also often understand opposing viewpoints, and therefore respectfully disagree.

I don’t know if many of us realize this, but this is our most potent political strategy. In official debate we’re rational, calm, patient and understanding. We pick our battles expertly and back up all our arguments with ample data.

Then, when we’ve successfully pleaded our case and are granted approval to build trails we deliver what we promise. Once that’s done, those who originally opposed us finally get it. That’s when the skeptics become converts. That’s when the Minneapolis Parks & Recreation Board goes from “No Bikes” signs to begging us to build more trails.

That’s where the “Friends” will be some day. They won’t be our vanquished “FOEs” (I really cringe when I hear them referred to as such), they’ll be yet another group we’ve cooperated with for mutual benefit.

[Wheels]

Chris is right on so many counts - but I think the gist of what he is saying is that success should be measured by our ability to continue in forging positive relationships with other park users and groups as well as the MPRB.

We still have a lot of work to do.

MOCA's leadership has been talking about that future quite a bit lately, and what we feel is important at this time that we become a stronger, more involved, more experienced group that can handle the task of expansion.

By that I mean that we need to concentrate over the next year, not on building more - but on building a lasting structure that will ensure that we are an organization that can perpetuate for years to come.

Our Achilles' heel will be maintenance. We must concentrate on building this organization into a group of capable and experienced trail builders that can manage the proposed network of trails for years to come - thus alleviating any concerns by the MPRB that we would implode and leave them holding the bag for maintenance costs on miles of trail.

We will do this by focusing next year on training. Every trail session will be a training session, with us taking our time to make sure that everyone who comes out to help has the necessary skills to step in and be a trail builder or trail maintenance pro.

By the end of next year we should have 3-times the number of highly trained members, and will likely have to have teams that are responsible for building and maintaining sections of the system under Trail Stewards for those areas.

If we do this right, we'll have an organization that can adapt to any need or opportunity that comes up - while maintaining a strong structure that never leaves any doubt as to our ability to take on more land.

The admin level of our organization will attempt to do the same, by promoting those members who have interest in the organizational aspect of things - planning, communications, community outreach - there will be many opportunities to help out and a structure that allows you to have ownership in those things that matter most to you.

Ownership and meaningful involvement are our new mantra for building this organization. We've laid the foundation, now it's time to build a structure that will last for years to come.

[mara]

John Schmidt (JLS) has accepted the position of Theodore Wirth trail steward.

Thanks John! :banana: Like your excellent predecessors, I'm sure you'll do a rockin' and banana-worthy job :D

[Aaroneous]

All right, all right... The other trails are all getting trailwork discussion, and this sweet weather makes me wanna get out there and dig!
So lets hear it! I know there's no real scheduling going on until things dry, but I'd like to know/talk about what the big picture plan for this spring is.

I assume first order of business is going to be inspection, repair, cleanup and general maintenance of the whole loop... But then what?
I forget the names/numbers of the sections, but I know there was discussion of adding two different Expert sections - one down by the lake, and that rooty-ass, up-n-down chunk with the switchbacks (you know what I mean).
I know there's more than that, and probably a whole bunch of stuff I can't remember or don't know about (but will help with anyhow).

And when do we get to start thinking about that lovely little can-o-worms known as Brownie Lake? :D

[mara]

The Reader's Digest version abridged from our Trail Steward and President):

Trail work will start soon. First priorities will be de-rutting and de-trashing the trail.

The expert section is being planned even as I type this. Since the city requires an exact blueprint including features before Pulaski hits dirt, work will start later this spring or summer. We want to maximize expert-ness before submitting our plans. More on this from people more in the know than I. . .

Brownie is currently not on the radar for this year. However, if the drainage issues are solved this year, the city may decide that fixing the area is a priority. Who knows?

If you're free on Wednesday at seven, come to the MOCA meeting, where the evil geniuses in charge will be sharing their vision for 2006 . . .

[Wheels]

Yep,

We'll be announcing the work schedule soon - maybe as soon as next wednesday if things go well.

We do have zone 6 (expert section) planning going on right now, but we have to follow a different process now there we're official than we did before - which means we have to submit a blueprint of the build.

I would expect the construction to begin in June, there probably won't be much more to do besides spring maintenance and the pruning once things begin to grow in for now.

In the meantime, MORC needs trail workers for a variety of other projects - most immediately Murphy. Pete Crabtree is the Trail Steward there I believe, so you can contact him to get on board.

[Buck]

Or there are some areas outside the metro that are in need of some much deserved help. IE: Steeple Chase and Memorial have both started trail work.

L8Rz
Buck

[manual63]

Or there are some areas outside the metro that are in need of some much deserved help. IE: Steeple Chase and Memorial have both started trail work.

L8Rz
Buck
And this can be posted in the threads for those trails........not here making it seem like you need more help there then we need at Theo.

Posting in the Theo thread like this causes there to be a battle between MORC trails, which we don't want. Post and educate people on doing trailwork to help out. If they want to help and ride those trails, they will show up.

[Buck]

And this can be posted in the threads for those trails........not here making it seem like you need more help there then we need at Theo.

Posting in the Theo thread like this causes there to be a battle between MORC trails, which we don't want. Post and educate people on doing trailwork to help out. If they want to help and ride those trails, they will show up.

It was just a reminder that while TW trails aren't open and maintenance hasn't started yet, there are other places where people can start breaking dirt now. Going off of what Shawn said, there are other projects that can use help now...Red Wing and Steeple Chase are two other places.

L8Rz
Buck

[Trevize1138]

Shad and Buck:

Get a room. The rest of us don't care that all you guys got is Brokeback mountain... ;)

[FSSS]

In the meantime, MORC needs trail workers for a variety of other projects - most immediately Murphy.

The details of the Murphy project are still being worked out... trailwork at other metro trails will most likely start up before the work at Murphy begins.

Go to the Murphy section of the forums for more info.


pc

[Wheels]

It's all good Adam, nothing wrong with spreading the love.

[soupboy]

The rest of us don't care that all you guys got is Brokeback mountain... ;)

More like Chafedtaint Hill...

[Wheels]

Yawnnnnn...... don't park at the par 3, blah, blah, blah... leash your dog, blah, blah, blah.... don't ride wet trails, blah, blah, blah...

Oh, ... the TTT is on! (First Annual Theo Time Trial). Stay tuned for details.

So far it looks like late August, early September - one lap on the short loop to qualify, two laps on the main loop for time, best time wins braggin' rights (and schwagg).

Yea, it's a sprint sucka's! :)

[stoneage]

I have been out to Wirth 3 of the last 5 days. Lots and lots of people, and I can't get over how many first timers I've met. A couple from Red Wing who came up just to ride there, and a group of 8 who heard about it from someone. Plus a couple of other small groups. I hope everyone doesn't show up at the same time!!!!!:shocked: I think we need more trail.

[jitterjepp]

Bill I think you should charge to remove those W04 stickers. They got us into this mess.

[stoneage]

Bill I think you should charge to remove those W04 stickers. They got us into this mess.
It's a delicate balance. Charge too much and they keep them. Do it for free and they think it isn't worth it. What's a business man to do?:confused:

[Heuy]

Just wanted to post up and say Hi, I just moved to SLP from ST.Paul this week, making Wirth my new local trail. So hopefully I'll see some of you out there. I don't know when I'll have time to ride this weekend, but I'll post up if I know in advance.

Or if you see someone rolling around on a blue XL epic say hi.

P.S. I'm down for trail work if I can fit it into my schedule sometime. I work until 6:00 downtown every weeknight.

[stoneage]

moved to SLP from ST.Paul this week, making Wirth my new local trail.
Wow!!! Wirth has made North Minneapolis and the Western burbs a desirable real estate location. Welcome to Theo, and trail work is Wednesday from 5 till dark, although we haven't done much lately. Check the MORC boards before you come out.

[thebionicman]

The backside of the jump has impacted, but Mara to the rescue!!!! Without any tools she was out there using a rock to try to fix things on the fly.

Thanks for all the great work. :banana: :banana:

[mara]

Shad just called in from Theo where he has fixed the jump, er, using real tools :eyeroll:

[DanB]

Yep I just rented a new place and my goal was to find a place close to Theo, and I did. I'm happy to be moving back to the cities where the riding is so good.

[jitterjepp]

Shad just called in from Theo where he has fixed the jump, er, using real tools :eyeroll:I came over the first table top tonight and found two fawns inspecting his work. They didn't stick around to tell me what they thought but I thought it looked good.

[steef]

I saw a doe on the trail last week. People really need to keep their deer on leashes there.

[Wheels]

Just an update on the current state of things here at MOCA.

We have a couple of small projects in the works - A pump trail/expert area on the east end of Conundrum - we'll be taking ideas for two more weeks, then submitting a plan to the MPRB.

We also have the go-ahead to clear the area at the top of the main entry (Conundrum). People have been steadily wearing it wider, so we asked if we could just make a meeting place. We'll try to build a couple of benches with some local materials so you have place to site while you're slow friends are making their way around :)

On the bigger front - future trail:

1. Zone 6 (expert/advanced features area) is almost ready to submit to the MPRB for approval. Just a few more flags, then we GPS it put on the plan.

2. Brownie - no news, as of right now the MPRB wants to close it.

3. The rest of the system (Cedar to par 3). The MPRB staff is currently working on a 10 year plan for the Parks system, as such - they are very reluctant to consider any new plans. We asked for a comprehensive plan, and we got it. Now we just have to wait until we get a chance to advise on the plan.

We will likely present a proposal for the Wirth Corridor system some time this fall/winter. The MPRB expects to release their plan late '07.

We are on the planning committee for the area between 394 and 55 (AKA Eloise Butler/Bog areas) and we have a commitment for the Cedar Lakes Park association that they will support trails in that area. Beyond that, we're on hold.

So not much happening lately, if you have big itch to work on trail there are many other ongoing projects in the MORC system - check out other trail forums on the board.

[col200]

Just got back from a few laps and noticed a nice hole (sink hole possibly?) on the landing pad after the last jump. Should we be concerned about this?:confused:

[manual63]

Just got back from a few laps and noticed a nice hole (sink hole possibly?) on the landing pad after the last jump. Should we be concerned about this?:confused:

Again???....sheeesh...that thing just loves to eat the table. I like the table....arrgghh.

We will try to get someone out to fix it as soon as we can.

[Nickel]

Is Theo really busy in the morning (say 7am)?

[col200]

I don't think you'll have much traffic :)
Even on busy days, you might have to pass a rider or two but it's not too bad.

[ebrandel]

Is Theo really busy in the morning (say 7am)?

I was out there last wednesday at about 8:00 or 8:30am and only saw a couple people. Should be pretty empty at 7am.

[mara]

We have maps/trail brochures! Look for them soon in a kiosk or par three near you.

HUGE thanks to Doug Larsen of PressReady for not only getting us a great deal and quick printing, but also for dealing patiently with someone who has absolutely no clue about printing, graphics, or pdfs.

Doug rocks! :banana:

[Magic]

Way to go Doug! I knew you were LCR for a good reason.:D

[stoneage]

One of my arguments when I started in Wirth, was the fact that putting good activities in an area would drive out the bad activity. Well, it's gone over the top!!! Freeride and I were doing some cross training around noon, and at the last trail crossing before the north exit were about 12 nine year olds in ballet tights performing for a group of about 20 people. They were accompanied by a cello and viola. I'm telling you, it was so surreal that Jon wouldn't take a picture with his phone because he thought it was too weird. The second time around a cop came cruising in with a golf cart near the entrance and when we came around the second time he was talking to them. You can't say Wirth isn't eclectic.:crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[jitterjepp]

One of my arguments when I started in Wirth, was the fact that putting good activities in an area would drive out the bad activity. Well, it's gone over the top!!! Freeride and I were doing some cross training around noon, and at the last trail crossing before the north exit were about 12 nine year olds in ballet tights performing for a group of about 20 people. They were accompanied by a cello and viola. I'm telling you, it was so surreal that Jon wouldn't take a picture with his phone because he thought it was too weird. The second time around a cop came cruising in with a golf cart near the entrance and when we came around the second time he was talking to them. You can't say Wirth isn't eclectic.:crazy: :crazy: :crazy:A few years ago I said I had pretty much seen it all in that area. I was wrong. I'm not sure that that is an official dancing stage there. Did the cop give them a ticket for dancing in an area designated for nothing at all?

[KleinCrazy]

One of my arguments when I started in Wirth, was the fact that putting good activities in an area would drive out the bad activity. Well, it's gone over the top!!! Freeride and I were doing some cross training around noon, and at the last trail crossing before the north exit were about 12 nine year olds in ballet tights performing for a group of about 20 people. They were accompanied by a cello and viola. I'm telling you, it was so surreal that Jon wouldn't take a picture with his phone because he thought it was too weird. The second time around a cop came cruising in with a golf cart near the entrance and when we came around the second time he was talking to them. You can't say Wirth isn't eclectic.:crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

Now if they had been drenched in blood and dancing around the sacrificial table, I wouldn't even think twice about it... but what you describe is just way too wierd.

[stoneage]

Now if they had been drenched in blood and dancing around the sacrificial table
Who says they weren't??;)
The kids were in nude colored leotards and shorts. There were boys and girls. The orchestra was playing a Handl like forest fairy piece. I am assuming the people watching were their relatives, or we got a whole new problem!! I don't think the cop gave them a ticket; he was just determining if it was on the up and up. I'm telling you, it was WAAAY weird.

[rfd425]

This might be a dumb n00b question, but are bikes allowed on any or all of the doubletrack trails at Theo?

[homebrewbiker]

As far as I know bikes are permitted on those trails (at least on the double track ski trails in the area of North of Highway 55).

But they are not too fun to ride, so I would suggest staying on the single track ;)

[Wheels]

No, bikes are not allowed on the double track - although you may see people using it to get down to the lake (non-MTB'rs). It's mostly used by walkers in the summer, skiers in the winter.

It's not exactly something that's laid down in stone (it's not signed as such) but the MPRB's attitude is that we have official bike trials, there's no reason to be making laps on the ski trail as well.

Definitely no bikes on the ski trails in the winter.

[rfd425]

I'll stay off, then, if it will help our rapport with MPRB. I just was thinking that it would be nice once in a while to ride some hilly doubletrack, like the trail at the top of the hill above Twin Lake.

[Wheels]

Thanks,

One of the bigger problems is that the ski trails/double track areas are seldom designed or built with sustainability in mind. To make things worse, many of them are covered with wood chips (a mistake in my opinion).

As a result, we're seeing huge ruts form on those hills. The preferred way to build those roads would be to make sure that they are seeded with a hardy grass that would help hold the soil in the summer and stand up to use by walkers and the occasional biker.

Currently, the MORC/MOCA trails are the only sustain-ably designed and built trails in the system. As a result of our efforts and demonstrated ability to build trails that don't degrade with use - the MPRB is adopting and attempting to implement our standards and methods across many other projects.

Riding bikes on those trails will only exasperate the problems we're seeing - not riding on them will keep us from being blamed for the problem, or making things worse.

[Kosk]

This was originally posted in the trail conditions thread, but I thought I'd move my response over here to keep that thread from getting off topic.


I think someone moved a rock to make a ride through spot...I'm not exactly sure where it is at, but I remember there being these pointy rocks all lined up exactly in a row and there was a spot to go through them.

You are correct. People keep wanting to rearrange the trail to meet their riding abilities. The rock will be back, bigger and badder, as soon as we get our rock delivery, um, delivered. We will continue to Lundellize any spots where people try to remove features.


I agree with your take on replacing divots, but this particular line of rocks to me is rather annoying. There is a certain rythmn and flow to that is developed in this section of trail, and that perfectly shaped corner, except for the fact that there is a single line of rocks in the middle of it....to me it's a flow issue.

If it was up to me, I would remove that line of rocks, and further up the trail a few hundred yards where there is a dip before crossing the ski trail, I would add a huge rock garden that armors and also slows riders before they cross the ski trail. This area has tripled in width since the loop opened and is also degrading significantly. To me, that is the spot where the rocks need to be. They'd serve more of a purpose there, and imo, improve flow. I don't mind slowing down at ski trail intersections, that's a good and safe thing, and rocks are a suitable means to achieve this, but to just randomly throw a couple babyheads here and there in the tight twisty flowy single track that is the majority or wirth, well, imo, it just kills it.

let me know when you plan on addressing these areas, I'd be willing to dig.

[mara]

I agree with you to a point and that is absolutely something we will consider. However, that particular corner and rock line has special memories for some of the original builders of the trail. Since people have to slow down for both the corner the rocks are in and the log pile just down the trail, I guess I didn't see them as interrupting my flow that much. The final decision, as always, will be made by the Trail Steward, with input from those who show up when we get rocks and get to that section.

I absolutely agree with needing to improve our trail regarding speed and trail width before ski crossings.

I'll try to let you know when we'll be hitting that area -- you always have good input.

[Shorty]

I absolutely agree with needing to improve our trail regarding speed and trail width before ski crossings.

Rock gardens on flat ground result in trail widening.

Unless there is some serious brush on the side of the trail, people will just go around the rock garden.

The only way I see it working is to build the garden with A LOT of rocks on the sides and a fairly easy route through the middle.

[mara]

Rock gardens on flat ground result in trail widening.

Unless there is some serious brush on the side of the trail, people will just go around the rock garden.

The only way I see it working is to build the garden with A LOT of rocks on the sides and a fairly easy route through the middle.

Hey, I didn't say anything about rock gardens. In fact, the couple of places where we tried that are very obviously not working.

We need to decide what to do with the existing rock gardens. We also need to find a better solution for some of the crossings. For instance, I'd like to see the end of section two ( Whitetail ) dip down hill a little, then climb to a chicaned crossing. Just my opinion, but I'd love to see how that held up compared to what we have now.

Figuring out how to fix the mess coming out of the pond loop and the highway sized trail around the rock garden after the crossing is going to be tougher.

[steef]

Any word on the rock delivery? If you need a body to meet them, I should be able to break free almost any time during normal business hours. I'd only need about 30 minutes lead time if it comes down to that.

[nord0306]

Any word on the rock delivery? If you need a body to meet them, I should be able to break free almost any time during normal business hours. I'd only need about 30 minutes lead time if it comes down to that.

I am working on getting the details finalized right now. I'll let you know as soon and I have set up a time. I would really like to have them soon.

Adam

[steef]

Gotcha. Let me know if you need a rock greeter.

[nord0306]

I am working on getting the details finalized right now. I'll let you know as soon and I have set up a time. I would really like to have them soon.

Adam

I talked to the guy today, I'm looking at a delivery at 10am on Monday morning. Let me know if that will work for you (or anybody else for that matter)
thanks
Adam

[steef]

10:00 am works fine for me. Just let me know exactly where the rocks should be dropped off. A little map with an X on it should work. :D

[steef]

It's almost 10:00. I'm going to go see if the rocks are coming.

[nord0306]

The rocks will be there at 10am on Tuesday 10/17
Adam

[steef]

Heh, I noticed no dump trucks pulling up. :D Twas a fine day for a ride. ;)

[nord0306]

I'm trying to get a map for you to show where the rocks should go, but all I have are PDFs and no pictures of the trail. So I can't add a little X anywhere. Anyway, the location that we want the rocks is south-east of the intersection of the two paths in the prairie. There is a small pile there right now, we just need to make it bigger. It's probably about 50 feet south of the main gravel road you will come in on and 10 feet east of the north south road in the prairie.

[steef]

Gotcha. I'm heading out in about 10 minutes.

[mara]

Thanks for rocking my world, Steev ;) I cannot wait to start playing with rocks again. . .

[soupboy]

I will happily come out to move rock if it means replacing that new log pile thingy that replaced an admittedly deteriorating rock garden. Certain parts of Theo are getting a wee bit of Wisconsin Dells-esque kitsch stank to them.

K.I.S.S.

Theo was great this afternoon (new log pile thingy aside).

[Wheels]

We were out today to do the final GPS of the Expert section - but unfortunately, someone out there feels the need to remove our flags every time we get things marked.

This has happened 3 times now, the last would have been last night - as the flags were up when the crew left yesterday, and we're missing when we got back out there today.

This has caused some delays, although it's now all GPS'd and the flags are a bit irrelevant.

Still, if you see someone removing flags - or know who the culprit is, please let someone here are MOCA know. If you catch them in the act, feel free to call the Park Police (911). This would be a punishable offense under Park rules.

That is all.

[jitterjepp]

Looks like they caught them!

http://wcco.com/crime/local_story_048133238.html

[Wheels]

Hollywood was just showing me a pic of himself posing with those statues just hours before they were stolen. Weird, Hwood.... and the thieves.

[Wheels]

Please see my post on the Trail Conditions thread - Theo trails are closed until further notice.

[jag]

We were out today to do the final GPS of the Expert section - but unfortunately, someone out there feels the need to remove our flags every time we get things marked.

This has happened 3 times now, the last would have been last night - as the flags were up when the crew left yesterday, and we're missing when we got back out there today.

This has caused some delays, although it's now all GPS'd and the flags are a bit irrelevant.

Still, if you see someone removing flags - or know who the culprit is, please let someone here are MOCA know. If you catch them in the act, feel free to call the Park Police (911). This would be a punishable offense under Park rules.

That is all.

I did not know about this. Yesterday (around 1pm) I was out there doing a couple laps and I kept seeing some guy walking through the woods with a walking stick. While taking a break I could here him snapping tree branches. Is this still an issue to watch for? Then again I probably won't be out there again for a while now that winter has hit the brakes.

[mara]

Is this still an issue to watch for?

I certainly hope not, but if you do ever witness vandalism in the parks, whether it be flag removal, someone messing with the Chalet statues, or anything else, please let the park police know.

[jag]

A couple weeks a go I saw a trail being cut on the north side by the hospital/homes next to the pond on the hillside. Does anyone know if that is mtb or just a trail for the neighborhood to walk? Just curious.

[Wheels]

Hmmm, That is where we are currently laying out trail - so you may have seen one of our team out there.

Hard to say, anyone?

[jag]

I biked over there tonight and took a 2nd look. With the snow gone I can see it better. someone plowed down there all the way to the woods and put in a section of very wavy and crooked retaining wall. I'm not sure how big those woods are, but i was thinking the trail was heading down there.

And the hospital next to the trail does not take emergencies. So don't waste time going there if it is needed.

[Wheels]

I biked over there tonight and took a 2nd look. With the snow gone I can see it better. someone plowed down there all the way to the woods and put in a section of very wavy and crooked retaining wall. I'm not sure how big those woods are, but i was thinking the trail was heading down there.

And the hospital next to the trail does not take emergencies. So don't waste time going there if it is needed.

That's news to us, if we're talking about the same place - we're currently laying out trail on the east side of the walking path, north corner - the slope facing the lake. Is that where you now see a wall - or is it on the west side?

[jag]

I doubt its part of the trail. I know where the old trail that is being changed is. This path/wall is outside of there towards the direction of the twinhomes which I think is north. If you were exiting the trail system onto the tar path and took a quick right it heads down to the north end of that pond and to a section of woods.
Has trail work started? I haven't rolled into the trails since they closed.

[Kosk]

That's not part of the Theo trail system and has nothing to do with the work the City/MOCA is doing.

[jag]

Perfect Pete. That is way better than my explanation.
I do see some more woods across the pond that look interesting.

[nord0306]

a contractor is installing a new retaining wall behind the nice expensive houses overlooking the pond. The trail is just for the bobcat to bring materials down to the site.
Adam

[Wheels]

Can anyone tell me if the signs have been flipped to "OPEN"? Steef said he may get them, but haven't heard back.

[nord0306]

Can anyone tell me if the signs have been flipped to "OPEN"? Steef said he may get them, but haven't heard back.

I changed all of them except the one by the sleep center. I didn't get a chance to put the orange fence back in the storage locker either.
Adam

[Trevize1138]

I'm going to ride over to the trails at 11 today to inspect the conditions. Theo tends to dry out after a rain rather impressively.

Will post trail conditions as soon as I find out.

[steef]

Chris, I'm planning to stop by on my way south.

[steef]

I changed all of them except the one by the sleep center. I didn't get a chance to put the orange fence back in the storage locker either.
Adam

I checked on that one but couldn't get it to budge. and I didn't have any lube with me.:embarass:

[col200]

I've noticed that some riders are riding up on the bench cut to avoid the rocks on the fast uphill part of 'northstar'. The trail is already creeping a bit there. I'll try to cover it with leaves or something next time i'm out if someone doesn't beat me to it.

[Nickel]

I've noticed that some riders are riding up on the bench cut to avoid the rocks on the fast uphill part of 'northstar'. The trail is already creeping a bit there. I'll try to cover it with leaves or something next time i'm out if someone doesn't beat me to it.

This is also happening around the left side of the rock garden on the southern loop of the trail near 55 & Theo Wirth Pkwy.

[col200]

oh yeah, there too. That part is creeping really bad. That part might need a little more love than just a sprinkle of leaves.

[steef]

Yup, what those parts need is more rocks.

[mara]

Game on!

Trailwork starts today ( Wednesday ) at five o'clock. We're meeting in the par three parking lot, but please join us on the trail if you get there after we head out. We'll be repairing and reworking features that have been damaged over winter.

If anyone has a wheelbarrow or cart capable of carrying medium sized rocks and can bring it easily, please do. I have one we'll be able to use in a week or two after I finish repairing it.

Trail divas are not known for their computer literacy. We're ( and you can read that "I'm" ) having trouble getting the email notice out. I apologize and will try to get everything up and running by next week.

[Trevize1138]

Have fun without me :(. I'll try to make it out to some trailwork this year but this summer's gonna be a busy one!

[mara]

oh yeah, there too. That part is creeping really bad.

After we finish damage repair, our main maintenance focus will be restoring the trail to true singletrack.

[jitterjepp]

true singletrack. I'm confused? What is it now?

[manual63]

I'm confused? What is it now?

It is getting a bit wide in places because we didn't anticipate what line riders would actually be taking. Our goal is to get all the trail tread back to between twelve and eighteen inches while maintaining flow.

-- mara

[jitterjepp]

When is the next MOCA meeting?

[steef]

Second Tuesday in August.

[mara]

Second Tuesday in August.

The second Wednesday in August. During trailwork season, we usually hold the meetings in the par three lot after the trailwork session.

[jitterjepp]

How much new trail is going to be added this year?

[mara]

We're hoping to add a small loop in the dump, but that may be it for the year. It's disappointing to wait yet again, but we're making the best of it and working on projects we otherwise wouldn't have as many resources to tackle.

If you're in the neighborhood on Wednesday, stop by trailwork and we'll talk. I haven't seen you in ages.

[jitterjepp]

I'll stop by and talk to you tomorrow but I kind of want to say out loud that when MOCA asked us to stop building and maintaining trail 3 years ago in the area that is now partially occupied by the new trail it made us the promise of just as much trail. Only one of us has lived up to that agreement so far.

I shouldn't have to drive to some other location to ride a trail I had here four years ago and its not what we were promised when we stood up in front of the park board and filled out all those questionnaires and mailed them in.

I think at this time its fair to ask MOCA and MORC to pony up and quit spending all its resources in other areas and give us back what we had here four years ago.

[mara]

Shawn, it's not a matter of spending our resources at Theo versus somewhere else. We have the money to do all the building we could handle in the expert section. It's approval from the city that's holding us up now. They will not approve any new building in that area until they figure out the routing of the Luce Line spur that may or may not head up by the sleep center.

We want to build this trail as much as you want us to build it.

[manual63]

I think at this time its fair to ask MOCA and MORC to pony up and quit spending all its resources in other areas and give us back what we had here four years ago.

You are blaming MOCA and MORC for this? We have done all we can do. It's up to the city now.

We have plenty of resources to go around. What we need now are people to help out in many areas....not just trailwork, but advocacy, planning, working with land managers, and so on.

[jitterjepp]

You are blaming MOCA and MORC for this? We have done all we can do. It's up to the city now.

We have plenty of resources to go around. What we need now are people to help out in many areas....not just trailwork, but advocacy, planning, working with land managers, and so on....with land managers at wirth? I'll PM you or talk to you tomorrow.

[rideharder]

i have to agree with shawn on this matter. i offered my expertise in planning and working with the land managers but got no response. i am not some "joe", i do this for a living. now mid summer i have no time to spare. and as for those "other" trails, just ride them. i ride them all the time and they are in reasonably shape with out anyone touching them. they are rugged, and way more challenging than anything else at wirth. ride them before the go under the shovel.

[jag]

Tree down, head height in a fast section and around a corner. I had to lock em up. It is about a lane up from the concrete ride. Some may fit under it.
Small saw should do. I didn't have one with me and won't be out there for a while.

[jitterjepp]

I had a crap load of cedar and douglass fir I tried to give you about six months ago. ;) Nice solid planks too. There were also some 4 x 4's and 6 x 6's in 8 - 16 foot lengths. Nice wood rescued and recycled from a factory in Canada Oh well.
It went to good use.

[quinnsoccer27]

constructive criticism in a discussion forum-- Theo Wirth is no longer singletrack mountain biking. What can we do?

[rideharder]

pressure the trail dirt bosses to do general trail maintenance instead of working on rock features or new trail. i say if you cant take care of what you have why would you even thing about making new much less if the park board gets wind that the maintenance isnt getting done they wont approve new trails. as seen at imba web site http://www.imba.com/news/news_releases/07_07/07_31_kona_grants.html toward the bottom of the page

[stoneage]

In general, build trails that suit the terrain and go to the limit allowable. It's easier to dumb it down later than to smart it up after a crap trail is built. Proper maintenance and pinning will keep the trail tighter. Most of the trail work I have seen lately, except Leb, has gone the easier route. Thank you Leb. Corners that used to take some planning and effort are easily negotiable and rock sections are no brainers. It's supposed to be hard, that's where the fun is. I have yet to see a post about someone bragging about how easy it was to clean a section of trail.

[manual63]

pressure the trail dirt bosses to do general trail maintenance instead of working on rock features or new trail. i say if you cant take care of what you have why would you even thing about making new much less if the park board gets wind that the maintenance isnt getting done they wont approve new trails. as seen at imba web site http://www.imba.com/news/news_releases/07_07/07_31_kona_grants.html toward the bottom of the page

Uh, the rock features we have been putting in have been to narrow the trail and keep riders from making it wider. Also, what new trail are we working on? Besides the Dump Loop pump track (which is being done by freeriders we promised we would let do it) no new trail is being built and every Wednesday is a maintenance day working on fixes of the existing trail.

First of all, we are all volunteers.....so pressure is not our game. Second, were you at trailwork helping??? Third, the conditions that Theo are in are not because of lack of maintenance. They are due to the extreme dry conditions. We had to work on projects we could work on, knowing very well that the trail is getting wide in many areas. Not much we can do about it when we don't have any rain. You hit the dirt with a tool and it just crumbles and becomes sand. We did this in a few places and realized we could not work on the trail in such dry conditions.

It rained finally, we had two crews out yesterday, again no you, and started fixing things we needed to fix. My crew added a berm and fixed some breaking bumps in a corner that badly needed it.

Somehow I don't think you know the realities of how things should work. But why would you? You don't show up, ask, or do ANYTHING to help out. But you sure know how to post your well educated opinion. Yeah, makes us really want to have you work with land managers when you think so highly of our efforts.

The ratio of people who compliment our efforts to complainers is about 200 to 1. Bet you are glad to be part of that .5%.

[manual63]

In general, build trails that suit the terrain and go to the limit allowable. It's easier to dumb it down later than to smart it up after a crap trail is built. Proper maintenance and pinning will keep the trail tighter. Most of the trail work I have seen lately, except Leb, has gone the easier route. Thank you Leb. Corners that used to take some planning and effort are easily negotiable and rock sections are no brainers. It's supposed to be hard, that's where the fun is. I have yet to see a post about someone bragging about how easy it was to clean a section of trail.

And the last time you offered to help waaaas????

Bill.....from advocate to complainer. Welcome to the .5%. Glad we are out there for 3-4 hours every Wednesday working on the trail you are always riding, but you hate soooo much.

[qa_bugfinder]

In general, build trails that suit the terrain and go to the limit allowable. It's easier to dumb it down later than to smart it up after a crap trail is built. Proper maintenance and pinning will keep the trail tighter. Most of the trail work I have seen lately, except Leb, has gone the easier route. Thank you Leb. Corners that used to take some planning and effort are easily negotiable and rock sections are no brainers. It's supposed to be hard, that's where the fun is. I have yet to see a post about someone bragging about how easy it was to clean a section of trail.

Some of us like easy trails... we are out there to exercise and enjoy the outdoors. I don't mind a few rocks, sticks or an occasonal small log in the trail. I'm not there to tempt gravity. I'd rather get a good hard physical workout from a good hill climb. For me the bridges that are built should be there only to get over soft ground that can't sustain a trail. Bridges that are 4 feet off the ground and have steps...:jumpy:. A nice long XC trail suites me just fine.

We all have our own likes and dislikes.

For the trail workers, GOOD JOB! I wish I could get out and help. Please keep some trails on the less technical side like Salem.

[steef]

Part of our time yesterday was spent adding debris to a closed section of legacy trail. We did the same thing last week and in a week, all the debris was off the trail again. That makes it harder to get to there areas that need skinnying in our short ammount of time.

[manual63]

Some of us like easy trails...

Well stated. This is our plan. Theo is an intermediate loop right now. The existing loop will remain intermediate and it was designed to meet those needs. We have future plans to make more advanced trails. Right now we are building up a freeride section in the dump loop. We are awaiting approval on the advanced trail near the sleep center. So more advanced sections are in the works, but the existing trail will remain at the skill level it is. Our goal is to have separate loops to meet some more demanding needs of the advanced riders, while still having an intermediate trail for the most common mountain biker to ride.

Some people, as we can clearly see by some of the posts, are just not being patient. They used to be involved and helped us. But they don't seem to understand what it takes to work with the city and get something approved. I don't worry about those few people. A large majority of riders love what we are doing and let us know, like yourself. We appreciate the good comments. We appreciate constructive criticism too. But as steev pointed out in his post, the same people who complain about us not getting stuff done are doing things in the trails that are making us shift our work loads, making it much harder for us to get done what we need.

No worries, you will still have your easier trails to ride. Most of the trails in the metro are designed to have different loops for different skill levels. Thanks for the post and support!!

[Shorty]

For the trail workers, GOOD JOB! I wish I could get out and help.

You can always help by becoming a MORC member (if you aren't already).

[rideharder]

well shad, im sorry that i cant make it to trail days. maybe i will try to come next wed. you see the problem is when i did go to trail days i was held back even though i was highly capable to work on the basic trail need not to mention that they wanted me to get trained on how to use a shovel and rake even though these are to tool of my trade. in reality i was treated like a little kid that didnt know squat. there is no need to get all worked up about some opinions but it is the truth and wirth is not was it was two and even three years. the pinning rock are gone and the corners are wide enough to ride three across. these are basic things that never seem to get fixed. yes it has been dry but i dont see how that would effect adding pinning rock and log to control corners and wide areas. if it is as dry as you say why wouldn't you bring a hudson sprayer or alike to moisten the dirt. this was never a personal attack but just a simple reminder that basic trail maintenance needs to take priority over rock gardens and adding black dirt. im glad im in that .5% because at least i have to ball to say that the trail is hurting and needs some attention.

[Guy Incognito]

I think at this time its fair to ask MOCA and MORC to pony up and quit spending all its resources in other areas and give us back what we had here four years ago.

and as for those "other" trails, just ride them. i ride them all the time and they are in reasonably shape with out anyone touching them. they are rugged, and way more challenging than anything else at wirth. ride them before the go under the shovel.

pressure the trail dirt bosses to do general trail maintenance instead of working on rock features or new trail. i say if you cant take care of what you have why would you even thing about making new

Corners that used to take some planning and effort are easily negotiable and rock sections are no brainers. It's supposed to be hard, that's where the fun is.

"Better to light one small candle than to curse the darkness"
Chineese proverb


Glad we are out there for 3-4 hours every Wednesday working on the trail you are always riding, but you hate soooo much.

Trust me when i say I know how to play the game. I, for one, appreciate the fact that you and your crew play it so well.

[stoneage]

adding debris to a closed section of legacy trail
A small group of the original crew wanted to close all the 'legacy' trails permanently. It probably would have been a good move in hindsight, as I see more bikes on them, along with the walkers heading to the beach and prairie. I love having constructive criticism threads. The replies are priceless. :D
Separate entrance and exit trails would be sweet and a lot safer. Someone's gonna take a hit one of these days.

[Wheels]

Bill, glad to see a new footer :) and keeping us honest.

There's always work to do - and the core crew is doing their best. I would encourage anyone who loves to ride these trails to find a way to help out.

Start by showing up on a wednesday night and take it from there, it's not a bad way to spend a week night.

There are very big things for Theo in the works, stay tuned - and get involved (and please be nice to each other too).

Please check my post on the Trail Conditions thread for news about the downed tree.

[soupboy]

What is not singletrack about Theo?

Theo Wirth is no longer singletrack mountain biking. What can we do?

[jitterjepp]

Well not that anyone expected to hear anything from me but...

This is something thats going on between the legacy folks at wirth. We need to work it out. To be honest (and you all know I will be) I really don't care what anyone thinks that doesn't have anything on the table. You guys need to realize that we do. We gave up the best and biggest chunk of land at wirth. Any arguments we have amongst ourselves is just that and probably better left off the MORC boards.

Some of us need to get back out there and do more (bill me...) and some other folks need to hear us. Before you get into my skin realize that we have two trails out there and you have only one. Our other trail is under yours. We all went to the bark board meetings and stood up, we wrote our park board reps and our mayor. We made it happen. Then we buried our trail and built a new one for you. We did this. You who haven't helped don't have any say in our