Turner 5 spot vs. Intense 5.5

[Tex]

Due to a broken frame a couple weeks back, I'm looking to upgrade frames over this winter. I've narrowed down my choices to the Turner 5 spot or the Intense 5.5. Both bikes are reportedly great trail bikes, both companies have great reputations, both bikes are "MTBR 2004 top choices", and both bikes are pretty expensive. So with that being said, it's obviously a tough choice. Here's a little run down on each bike.

The "spot" uses the classic "Horst Link" design that Turner has prided itself on for years. It is a fully active suspension design, but the reports on mtbr claim that it climbs better than any other full suspension bikes. The one thing that scares me away from the Turner is it uses bushings with grease zerts on all the pivots. However, again, everyone on the mtbr reviews doesn't seem to think this is a bad thing. And anyone who has ever seen or ridden a Turner, the workmanship on these things can only be described as flawless.

The Intense uses the relatively new VPP design, that although new, it has been heralded as the "next big thing" (this in itself makes me a bit nervous). It uses all sealed bearings in its pivots, and again, the workmanship is second to none. I like the fact that Intense has it's downhilling background. I think you can see it has that aggressive "could take whatever you can dish out" look, and let's be honest here, the look of it IS a factor.

Most of riding is local, however, I do usually get up to Lutsen a couple times a year, and usually at least one trip to the mountains every season.

Just wondering if anyone has any experience with either of these bikes, or companies. Or if anyone just has an opinion they could share.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
-Eric

[gopherhockey]

I don't know much about the Turner - I'd bet both would be good bikes.

I run a Blur with VPP and love it. (Santa Cruz uses the same exact VPP technology) If I were to buy a new bike right now (or a second bike to compliment the Blur) I'd go with the Intense 5.5.

I think some of the new suspension that is coming out is making technologies like VPP a little less as important as it was just a year ago. For example, with the right shock you can make a Superlight as good or even better than the Blur for some riding purposes.

[soupboy]

...not a knock against the SC/Intense VPP designs but it's not just Turner that prides itself on the Horst link. Specialized owns the patent and every bike maker that builds using this design owes them a royalty. There's a good reason they are willing to pay it - it's the most time tested design on the market today because it simply works well.

As for the zerks/grease ports I've had my Turner RFX (the big brother to the 5Spot) for two winters now. No slop, no undue wear and being able to lube your frame like a car chassis is a very good thing. IMHO bearings are overrated - they weren't meant to bear lateral loads, rather they were meant to spin - i.e. in a bottom bracket or hub. In a frame they never move more than a 1/4 cycle if that.

If you want to check out my bike you are more than welcome. Intense has had a run of suspect CS over the years. They are a very race oriented shop...as in supporting their race team to the detriment of customers.

Also, a number of SC Blurs suffered from bearing problems. Maybe this has been resolved and/or is not an issue on the Intense design.

Both are fine bikes, but if I'm going to spend really money I don't want to be spending it on the bleeding edge. The Turner is also going to give you a wider variety of aftermarket shock options as the VPP designs are built around platform shocks. The Turner's tried and true Horst link does not require this to get the performance although, on the margin, a platform shock helps climbing and sprinting.

I suggest working the MTBR forums for suggestions as well. There are a number of knowledgeable suspension pundits there that can speak to the tech side far better than I can.

Another compelling option is the new Titus Moto Lite - a burlier, longer travel Racer X (4.5-5" I think), also available at a very reasonable price. Also a Horst link, also a fantastic company in terms of CS.

Hope this helps,

Sean

The "spot" uses the classic "Horst Link" design that Turner has prided itself on for years. It is a fully active suspension design, but the reports on mtbr claim that it climbs better than any other full suspension bikes. The one thing that scares me away from the Turner is it uses bushings with grease zerts on all the pivots. However, again, everyone on the mtbr reviews doesn't seem to think this is a bad thing. And anyone who has ever seen or ridden a Turner, the workmanship on these things can only be described as flawless.

The Intense uses the relatively new VPP design, that although new, it has been heralded as the "next big thing" (this in itself makes me a bit nervous). It uses all sealed bearings in its pivots, and again, the workmanship is second to none. I like the fact that Intense has it's downhilling background. I think you can see it has that aggressive "could take whatever you can dish out" look, and let's be honest here, the look of it IS a factor.

[DMonkey]

OK - I know Soupboy will more than likely flame me a bit.. But thought I should add my thoughts.

First - what was the bike you had before that broke & what kind of riding do you think you will be doing?


I actually have a an '03 Turner 5 Spot and an '03 SC Blur.. I've always wanted to ride the Intense 5.5, but so far, I have not.

I got the Turner frame used (it was barely used and it great shape) - for a hell of a deal, so it was kind of hard to pass up.
If I were to do it again, I may look more at the 6 Pack (which is more like the RFX), the Int. 5.5, or something like that - I think they would complement the Blur better.

I've done some research on the Turner and a lot of people say it is a great climber - so far, I found that is it's weak point to me (though I'm still working on the set up, and may go to an RP3 shock, currently have the Romic on there - so your mileage may vary).
Climbing longer hills, it's def. not as quick or as eff. as the Blur.

On "level" ground or going down, the Turner feels great. Very solid/nimble.
The quality of the frame build is very good.. It def. shows.
Turner must have the most cheezy stickers on the market - Not a big deal at all, but humorous.
I've read and talked to a few people who have dealt with Turner's customer service and all have been very positive.
I have dealt once with SC, and was happy with their service, can not talk on Intense's CS- never dealt with them..

The Brake Jack that you read about for VPP is real, though - I did not notice it much when I just had the Blur, you can compensate for it and most of the time, isn't a big deal.

I will also admit that the bearing issue with the VPP susp. is a problem - I've changed mine once and more than likely will have to again mid/late next season.
Even knowing that - would I get the Blur again? Definitely, for me, it's a great bike (it's not for everyone - but why do you think there is so many frame & susp. designs around).
There has been talk that they are going to fix that with different bearings - but so far, I have not heard of any available or being used.
I totally agree that the grease ports are a good thing.

I've also read that Titus is a good company and have good bikes - I once thought of getting a Switchblade..

So - I'm not sure I'm helping here, but I really think you need to ride both of them on the trail to figure it out.

[Buck]

Two great bikes to pick from...BUT

I would go with the Turner 5 spot.

My reason: WHen I went with Team Sally out to Colorado for a week of some crazy riding, one of the guys had a turner 5 spot, the coolest thing about that bike I thought was how the guy was doing hardcore DH(DC fork on it) with us then next day he would swap out the fork and chainguide and he was doing epic XC rides with it. I don't think you could honestly do that with the INTENSE. So just to the fact a versatility I would go with the TURNER, along with that I've seen them in action, they can with stand any thing you throw at it...PLUS turner bikes have the wow factor and a great company to back it up!
Post pics of whatever you choose!!!
L8R
Buck

[Tex]

First - what was the bike you had before that broke & what kind of riding do you think you will be doing?
I had an 02 Giant AC air lite. Most of my riding is local technical singletrack. But at least once a year I usually go up to Lutsen, or go out west for some "real" mountain biking. Another factor is, I'm a bigger rider, I'm 6'1 and about 210 lbs. with a full camelback and gear on. I know everyone says it, but I guess I'm a fairly aggressive rider, there isn't too much stuff around here that I won't ride (Monkey Village being an exception). So that being said, it sounds like the Turner might be my best bet.
Oh, and thanks for all the great responses. After I get this new bike, whatever it is, I hope to ride with some of you at a few of the group rides.

-Eric

[soupboy]

...you just need to learn to tune your dampers brother!

My fat ass gets around every trail in the USA (a gross mistatement) with my 9.5# RFX frame and 35# bike - let alone my 250# carcass.

Buck - not sure who your pal was, but the 5Spot while likely burly enough, is not warranteed for a DC fork other than a Maverick which is really a glorified XC fork (as light and stiff as it may be). My RFX can run any type/length fork you want.

Dirk - you also wear cologne when you ride so I have to box your ears a bit you pooftah!

Sean

[Buck]

Buck - not sure who your pal was, but the 5Spot while likely burly enough, is not warranteed for a DC fork other than a Maverick which is really a glorified XC fork (as light and stiff as it may be). My RFX can run any type/length fork you want.
Oops, my bad, you know what, after looking at a pic of his bike then a pic on the website it looks like the six pack model, which I think is the new RFX. Sorry about that a little comfusion there!!! anywoo, I would get the RFX then, lol :D
I've ridden a DHR out in CO, now that is a bike to marvel at!!!
L8R
Buck

[Yammer]

If given those two choices I would definitely go with the 5-Spot. Definitely a very versatile bike. But don't get one without at least looking at the Ventana El Saltamontes or X-5. I just bought a Salt and am extremely happy.

My goals were to get a single "do all" bike that would last 10 years, I can ride the metro trails with ease then bring it out to Moab and still hang with the terrain out there. After getting thithe Salt, I am confident that it will satisfy all my needs. I upgraded the rocker to a 5" with a Romic coilover and a Z1 freeride fork in front, and depending how I tune it it I can ride anything I want. I wouldn't huck or jump this bike, but it'll take a drop, corner in some tight single track, accellerate up hills and decend rough terrain like nothing.

Lee Bridgers, owner of Dreamride in Moab, has extensive tests of both the 5-Spot and El Saltamontes on his site. www.dreambike.com (http://www.dreambike.com)

Also, Ventana answers questions very quickly and I've even gotten technical responses directly from Sherwood Gibson himself (the bike designer), when I asked them a question comparing their design philosophies versus Turner's. I am really impressed with Ventana and may be a lifer with them at this point.

Just something to consider. Best of luck! I don't think you can go wrong with Turner or Ventana for an awesome trail bike.

Patrick

[Ish]

Lee Bridgers, owner of Dreamride in Moab, has extensive tests of both the 5-Spot and El Saltamontes on his site. www.dreambike.com (http://www.dreambike.com/)

I mean no disrespect to Ventana as I hear they are great bikes, but Bridges is a nut case (on a good day).
For enterntainment value go here: http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=37326&highlight=lee+bridges

Or just visit dreambike.com and read his rants.

[Yammer]

Bridgers is very eccentric but I think he does know what he's talking about. Anyway he only carries Ventana, Moots and Turner bikes.

If you read his reviews, and can look past his opinions (and he is very opinionated) you will find a very rigorous and consistent test methodology that he used to test the bikes and give actual comparisons and impressions on.

I just gave his site as a reference to someone who has both bikes. Also recommend Chris Dadzitis at www.wrenchscience.com (http://www.wrenchscience.com), he knows both and will gladly answer questions. Or contact Teresa directly at Ventana, www.ventanausa.com (http://www.ventanausa.com) if you want to learn more about Ventanas.

I personally think that Bridgers is hilarious as well as knowledgeable.

Patrick

[soupboy]

...kook. He's written some informative books re riding in and around Moab but other than that his points are inconsistent if not meritless altogether.

He changes "preferred" boutique brands all too frequently. He used to be a relentless Ellsworth pundit...but now he and Tony aren't pals anymore.

The worse thing about LB is that while blathering endlessly about the overuse/abuse of Moab by weekend warrior noobs he simultaneously caters exclusively to this subset of riders that he so derides - i.e. those that have the resources and willingness to pay his excessive tour fees and ridiculous bike/component prices.

I have the first edition of his Moab trail book. Funny read. Subsequent issues have been edited to tone down the rants...too bad. I went by his shop when in Moab to check it out but it was closed and had something obnoxious posted on the door. I don't know why anyone would want to do business with that psycho.

As for Ventana, another great resource is Larry Mettler at www.mtnhighcyclery.com. Personally, I think Ventana falls one Horst-link short of greatness. Why go all that way and not employ a proven, successful design. All of Ventana's faux-bar bikes are rocker driven single pivots. If they'd pay Speshy the $5 or whatever royalty per frame I would have bought an X-5 in lieu of my RFX. What's $5 on top of $2,000...nada. That said, Sherwood's craftmanship, finishing and customer service is top notch from what I've witnessed.

Again, I strongly recommend you consider the Titus Motolite as well. Might be the best bang for the buck. Check out www.hammerheadbikes.com and talk to Charles Coker about the bike.

Buck - that DHR is awesome. If I lived somewhere where I could make real use of a DH bike that would be it. 888, floating brake and big meats....

Sean

I mean no disrespect to Ventana as I hear they are great bikes, but Bridges is a nut case (on a good day).
For enterntainment value go here: http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=37326&highlight=lee+bridges

Or just visit dreambike.com and read his rants.

[Yammer]

both designs (Turner and Ventana) have their drawbacks and benefits. Even the Horst link is not ideal in all situations. Here is a quote from your favorite guy LB-
**********************
Ventana and Turner shine the best light on two different, yet equally effective, philosophies of four bar mountain bike suspension frame construction. I have a healthy respect for each point of view.
Sherwood Gibson opts for a chainstay mounted pivot with uniquely sleaved and multitple sealed bearing pivots to increase lateral rigidity for cornering prowess, to keep the bike on line and require almost no maintenance. There is about a 2% loss in pedaling efficiency with the seatstay pivot, but the rigidity gain is far more than 2%, a huge advantage in keeping the bike on line when things get rough and hairy.
Dave Turner's philosophy from the start has been to offer a bike where the suspension simply vanishes into the control of the bike. Dave has given us some maintenance duties and sacrificed a percentage of rear end rigidity to get handling ueffected by input into the suspension by braking and acceleration forces. The benefits of the Horst Link are legendary, and the benefits of a Horst Link in a parallel beam four bar rear linkage are near perfection in rear suspension monkey motion. Period. Nothing else touches it. The 5-Spot, by virtue of its FSR Horst Link Patent is the current state-of-the-art version of this uniquely challenging suspension design.
*********************************

He goes on to prove it in a certain test where he applies torque while the rear end is receiving lateral forces on a rugged climb. The Ventana is ridgid enough in the rear to successfully achieve the climb, where the Horst link rear flexes and fails to complete the climb.

Like I said before, I would go with Turner over Intense, but would and have gone with Ventana over Turner. But as I've read alot of reviews on both the 5-spot and El Saltamontes, it really comes down to what's important to you and what feels right. Either way, T or V, you can't really go wrong.

Patrick

[Ish]

Bridgers is very eccentric but I think he does know what he's talking about. Patrick - I think we are pretty much in agreement: Ventana and Turner are great bikes and Bridges is eccentric. However, I don't think he knows what he is talking about. If you read his full review and most of his other babblings it is good humor but he flip flops around like a fish out of water.

I also have the first addition of his Moab guide book which Joel just dropped off. A great resource for trail information for sure........with the added bonus of being able to laugh at this kook!

congrats on the Salty! I'm sure you will get many years of enjoyment out of it.