Tentative 2005 MNSCS Races [Archive] - Minnesota Off-Road Cyclists Discussion Forums

JBergland

11-10-2004, 06:58 AM

Id love to see some things like this!!!!!! Hey Gregg what do we have to do to make it happen?

DouglasGavity Lab has put on a DH/DS series (3-4 events) for the last two years.
Attendance numbers were marginal… 25-30-ish. I think everyone that showed up had a good time, but when you factor in the costs (Buck Hill/Insurance, set-up efforts, people to actually run the event), it makes it hard to justify.

Really how big is the DH/FreeRide market?? It seemed like the EXACT same people showed up from week-to-week and year-to-year.

JB

nigel

11-10-2004, 09:00 AM

Gavity Lab has put on a DH/DS series (3-4 events) for the last two years.
Attendance numbers were marginal… 25-30-ish. I think everyone that showed up had a good time, but when you factor in the costs (Buck Hill/Insurance, set-up efforts, people to actually run the event), it makes it hard to justify.

Really how big is the DH/FreeRide market?? It seemed like the EXACT same people that showed up from week-to-week and year-to-year.

JB

But what if you have a seperate event at an XC race? Would the insurance not cover that already? There would be people to watch and im sure just by seeing these races the market for such events would grow and bikes might sell! I can see why a stand alone series like the Buck ones dont work very well (thats why i did not mention them) but if its with those races already going on things might be different.

D

Burke

11-10-2004, 09:09 AM

A stand alone event wouldn't initially have the draw that a combined event would. I speculate that the insurance from the 'main' race would cover a DH/Slalom 'side' race.

Doug, we'll talk more about this Saturday. Don't let me forget.

Magic

11-10-2004, 09:24 AM

We had DH/DS races in the MNCS race series back when CHI-CHI's was the main sponser. That was in the late 80's early 90's. We would race DH/DS on saturday then on sunday we'd race the XC. I'd say we'd get about 30 or 40 people on a good weekend for DH/DS. But remember, this was just the start of FS bikes. Not much travel in the early days. The main problem was nobody could build a good course. Sometime's it was because of the topo of the area we were at and sometimes it was just poor course design. I for one would love to see a DH/DS series back in this state. Insurance prices is what drove it away, that and the lack of people to race. Like I said the courses weren't the greatest, which in turn was why people quit coming to the races. I think with the freeride movement going on we can take another stab at this. We are starting to get more numbers of people in that area of biking. So I ask that we all pool our knowledge and skills and try to make another run at this.:)

Buck

11-10-2004, 10:01 AM

I can design courses...muahahahaha....no but seriously, stand alone events suck, no offense to theGravity lab one b/c I did it for a year. If you tie in with an already exisiting event, it would be way easier to draw in sponsors for the DH/DS b/c they are getting their name out to the whole bunch(XCERS). As for the series all those places could have some type of event that was more big bike oriented. That being said, you can't expect the first few races or the 1st year for that matter to be a huge success. People will be very skeptical of course design, and running format and besides that you can't just wack out a good DH/FR course, you can however in a couple days wack out a good DS course. Nothing sucks worse then sitting at the start gate for 10minutes waiting for the timers to get ready for each rider then riding a sub par course. Spirit did a great job their first year and I would expect a larger turnout this year and hopefully a little better course.:D ;)
L8R
Buck

guest_s

11-10-2004, 01:07 PM

I used to hold BMX jumping contests back when there were none. Some were stand alone events and others were at BMX tracks during BMX races or shortly after.

I would be interested in getting a group of us together to explore this option (Freeride events that is). All you really need is some sponsors to help out and a location. It takes some PR and I can do that.

If anyone is interested in getting involved in helping organize this sort of thing, let me know.

Okay, I have one already because I know Adam Buck will get involved..... :) ....anyone else??

Buck

11-10-2004, 02:19 PM

HAHAHA man you are a bandwagon boy...I'm already working on some things...This stuff doesn't happen over nite, if you want it for this coming season you had better start workin now! or it ain't happenin'. Don't mean to be a dick, but the sooner things are started the better off they will be. But yes I would like to be involved. :D ;)

As far as racing goes, it would be cool to have 5-6 DH series in MN, possible location for races that I have been looking at would be as follows: Lutsen, Spirit, Afton, Buckhill, Steeplechase, Mt. Kato...I am looking much bigger as far as racing goes though, I'm thinkin like a three state series...including the UP of Michigan, and WI in there and you could easily have a 10 race series for DHers in the Upper Midwest but until something like that happens, once a DH course is built it only takes a day to run through and make it race ready so you could have a huge series if you wanted, have a race every weekend...along with that I am kicking around a couple of other ideas for some FR events...More on those as they come closer to reality...

I do like the way things are headed though, MNSCS would have far greater turnouts if they started involving more then just XC races...it is cool and all but who goes to watch a XC race??? DH/FR/DS draw crowds, which in turn draws media attention, which in turn brings in more money(bigger sponsors) to use to make it all better. I'm glad people are seriously kicking around the idea of DH/DS, it IS very possible in MN, and will draw more people in.
L8R
Buck

nil821

11-10-2004, 03:13 PM

Has anyone ever checked out the DH race in Westby, WI? Something to get some info/advice from or possible work with for a series event.

http://www.whiteknucklemtb.com/home.htm

nigel

11-10-2004, 03:15 PM

bikebud

11-10-2004, 03:15 PM

Speaking as one of the promotors of a race on the MNSCS series, I can tell you that the addition of DH/FR/DS would be a huge undertaking; something that's not likely at this point. We are concentrating on making our XC races as successful as possible right now and we're only on our second season back.

There is a ton of things that would have to be done at each venue to support a DH/FR/DS course. I am co director of the Muddy River Rock n Roll in Red Wing I can about guarantee that there will never be a DH race there. Getting the City of Red Wing to support our cross country event has been a huge leap. Getting them to support the construction of a DH-only trail with stunts would be next to impossible.

The whole DH thing is not easy to just add to a course, even at a ski area. Insurance issues have gotten scary, and you forget about the time required to get a killer course ready for an event. I don't know too many promoters out there who are willing to double their set up time, double their timing fees, double their insurance costs, and spend their entire weekend at an event that could end up losing money if the sun isn't out.

I'm not speaking as a representative of the MNSCS here, only as the promoter of one race. For me ton consider the extra effort, politics, work and costs, I want to see the DH/FR/DS folks step up and prove that their events will draw the racers that they say will come out. I say that you all get together, put on some events, learn what it's like to promote these things, try to combine efforts.

Later,
Kris Henke
Muddy River Rock n Roll.

Buck

11-10-2004, 03:57 PM

Hmmm, knowing that insurance is the biggest problem for events I dug this up...I believe if I am reading it right, leaves no one responsible for injury incurred on said land for recreational purposes...please correct me if I am wrong as I am now dabbling in this stuff trying to make sure I am educated when I talk with Spirit Mtn. Kinda confusing crap but what isn't that is written by the government :geek:

http://www.americanwhitewater.org/access/liability/MN.htm
L8R
Buck

nigel

11-10-2004, 04:00 PM

Buck

11-10-2004, 04:08 PM

Brady,
I've raced the White Knuckle two years running now. Super cool event, on private property. Course does not follow standards of IMBA or MORC for that matter. Super cool event...you guys should all check it out this year, they have a killer XC course...
L8R
Buck

Buck

11-10-2004, 04:13 PM

hmmm, Douglas,

I would say that when I race I race for fun! lol, I'll have to look at it some more but I'm sure there are some loop holes we can find, along with that , I think that some but not all structures could be legal under this, once again I only gave it a once over, later 2nite I will research it some more. But I would say that this opens up venues such as ski area as a very real use area. They are covered by this almost exclusively...
L8R
Buck

bikebud

11-10-2004, 04:52 PM

I wouldn't put much trust in this document. I can tell you that the city of Red Wing won't even consider an event that doesn't have insurance above and beyond what the city already carries.

This document would likely apply to trail systems like what we have on Memorial Bluff or what exists at Lebanon Hills. The trails are open for public recreational use; any injury that occurs on these trails is considered the responibility of the rider not the owner of the trails. In the case of an organized event being held on the public trails, normal recreational no longer applies for the duration of the event.

My guess is that ski areas will operate under the same guidelines. If they don't, one injured rider + one slick lawyer= end of ski business. It's unfortunate, but you have to remeber that lawn mower companies get sued for owners cutting their finger off while trying to trim hedges; McDonalds lost a ton of money when a lady spilled coffee on her lap. An event without insurance is a huge risk.

Also, it's not so much that insurance is the biggest obstacle to putting on an event. Racers want schwag, you need to market the event, pay for quality timing, buy course marking. That all adds up in the end. I'm not saying that an attempt at creating DH/FR/DS racing is futile. On the contrary, I'd love to see it happen in MN, but it's not as easy as throwing some stunts on a hill and assuming that riders will show up. If you can get that to happen, let me know the secret so we can get entry fees below $20 at our race!

Kris
Muddy River Rock n Roll

Buck

11-10-2004, 06:09 PM

1. I see that you have made a point to include stunts in you descriptions. DH course DON'T typically have stunts on them, I have never seen video/pictures/ridden on a DH course that had a stunt. it even says that in the IMBA trail building book, and I quote

"15. ladder bridges, teeter-totters, and other freeriding stunts are NOT recommended on downhill trails. They are FREERIDE features and do NOT accommodate high speeds. while a ladder bridge may be used to control erosion on a very steep section of trail it should not be challenging in its width, and should be postitioned so that faster riders can jump over it...etc, etc..." (Trail Solutions, pg 247)

That right there would solve half the problems, a DH course is much easier to sell when you take out the stunts and stucture part as far as Insurance for the event goes, and selling the idea to muncipal bodies. What a DH course does have is very smart use of the terrain using exsisting rock for drops, lips built off of rises in the land, switchbacks, rock gardns, berms. All thing that are on a XC trail only bigger and steeper...while the document may not work for racing, it is a starting point for insurance to build DH trails for Recreational use.

2. With the way the bike industry is right now, it would be much easier to get support from companies to give out Scwag then you think. The industry is putting more time and money into DH/FR bikes then they ever were. Almost every company now sells a gravity specific bike many of whom are trying to get there names out there, the best way to do that is support grass roots events, which almost all companies have some form of grassroots support program. If somewhere like Arkansas can hold a killer race series so can Minnesota.

3. As for building the trails, they aren't a one time thing, yes the building does take a long time and is hard, but once it is there and built correctly it will be there for a very long time, not only to race on but also for Recreational use. And no here is recommending a throwin together half ass race series...this somthing that will take time, but I would say that within two years a DH race series could become a reality...

4. It is coming...

On my own account of possibly stepping on toes, I think alot of the problems arise from promoters not wanting DH to take away from the exsisting event. This is what happened at the Greenman as I was told. The XC promoter didn't want a DH race and therefore chose not to help the organizer(s) of the DH race. Making it even harder for the race to happen b/c people were having turf fights over piddly crap like that. From there on it was left up to a number of dedicated DHers who wanted a race and that they did, that they did.
L8R
Buck

bikebud

11-10-2004, 08:25 PM

I hope that DH/FR/DS does come to the MN race scene. I have no problem with it. However, I am speaking from the point of view of a race director that holds an event on public land, not private land. Access is an issue for us. I build all the trails so I know what goes into the construction of a great trail system. Been doing it for 8 years now.

As for the issue of stunts, yes I do make mention of them as I feel it pertains to every major downhill I have scene. True, the stunts aren't of the North Shore variety, but I see plenty of large doubles, table tops, kickers built into a downhill course. I have a downhill I could use right now on the trails here in Red Wing. It's fast, the problem is there's nothing challenging about it. Now I could add that to our event next year, no problem. But you know what? I'm going to hear all day long how much the course sucked. Nothing for big air, nothing to really get the rider thinking. Just point and shoot. To make it challenging I would have to add "stunts" of some sort. Jumps, drops, rock gardens, etc.

I will admit, I come from the XC world. I do little of what you would consider dowhill or freeride. I can respect the freeride persuasion. It amazes me, but I would not want to focus my energies on it. I know XC and know what it takes to create a killer XC course with some fun technical aspects in it. That's where my focus will be. Seems to me that there needs to be some events out there from the DH side of the tracks; get some history and staying power to them, then address the issue of joining forces.

An hey, if you can get schwag from a company for your event more power to you. You know, you'd think that with the Lance influence on the industry companies would be giving away road gear left and right. It's not happening dude. The interest may be there but the dollars just aren't. Grass roots help in the form of discounts on bikes and parts is cool, but the free stuff probably isn't there. One event may have a shot, but if you want to have an entire series getting free stuff from one company it ain't gonna happen.

I've been doing this for 8 years here in Red Wing. I remember the glory days when all the companies were begging for us to give away their stuff. There were times when we had upward of $3000 at each race in a series. We scrambled last year to come up with $800. Gravity Lab pulled through for us and did an amazing job. Without them we'd have had nothing and we've got an 8 year track record of putting on a great event. The dollars just aren't out there in the industry right now. Doesn't really matter what the flavor of the week is in terms of exposure; if the money isn't there don't expect free stuff.

Kris

nil821

11-10-2004, 08:58 PM

I believe in Wisconsin if you don't charge you cant be sued. But, if you charge a penny or more you can be taken to court. My uncle did a lot of work with land access for snowmobile trails, I'll check with him next time I'm home.

Hmmm, knowing that insurance is the biggest problem for events I dug this up...I believe if I am reading it right, leaves no one responsible for injury incurred on said land for recreational purposes...please correct me if I am wrong as I am now dabbling in this stuff trying to make sure I am educated when I talk with Spirit Mtn. Kinda confusing crap but what isn't that is written by the government :geek:

http://www.americanwhitewater.org/access/liability/MN.htm
L8R
Buck

Buck

11-10-2004, 09:29 PM

yeah I hear man, the industry is in a little bit of a slump, I hear ya on that one. Glad to get all the responses, atleast the idea is in out there now and valid points have been posted, hopefully board members, and promoters will see this and keep it in the back of their minds. Eventually it will happen, can't ignore it forever. Dowhill and freeriding are here to stay! Time to get the thread back to what it is supposed to be, I keep hijacking threads! oops...
Looks like a fun race schedule, eventually there'll be some gravity events on there I can bet on it, and if no one else will work for them I will.
L8R
Buck

nil821

11-10-2004, 10:15 PM

I have always wanted to see an urban mountain bike race. I live near the U of M campus and use lots of stuff there (stairs, drops, sidewalks crowed with students) as obstacles to help simulate a trail experience when I can't get out of the city. Might be fun to hold an urban race or something. Might have to have a TT format to reduce bottlenecks, crowding, etc...

Buck

11-10-2004, 10:20 PM

Hmmm, already looking into, believe me any Freeride oreinted race I am looking into, and pretty seriously...alot goes into an event like that, even more so then one out in the sticks, unless it was a good 'ol renegade race! Make a map of the course tell people where the course is and run with it w/o tellin the people that aren't ridin!
L8R
Buck

guest_s

11-11-2004, 07:52 AM

Considering that downhill/freeride events are held all over in other states, it doesn't make sense to think it can't be done here. They have all the same obstacles in other states as we have here, so why such a negative attitude towards it?

I don't get it.

Buck

11-11-2004, 07:55 AM

There is a negaitve attitude b/c it would change things, people don't like change...hahaha...actually I'm not totally followin on this one, what do you mean by "negative attitudes".

L8R
Buck

Little D

11-11-2004, 08:27 AM

I'd like to thank the race organizers for all of the work it takes to get this series together. It was pretty sad when it fell off of the radar a few years ago. :cryin:
For all of you guys drooling over adding dh/freeride events to the series, you should go to the race posting site and contact the organizers of each race to check on interest...

Buck

11-11-2004, 09:19 AM

Where do I do that, mnscsdotcom? Never mind I found it!
Thanks
L8R
Buck

guest_s

11-11-2004, 12:03 PM

There is a negaitve attitude b/c it would change things, people don't like change...hahaha...actually I'm not totally followin on this one, what do you mean by "negative attitudes".

L8R
Buck
I guess negative attitudes is a little strong. I mean when people talk about how much work it would take and the risks involved. My point is, the risk here is no bigger than the risks in other places. Other places hold these events and so can we. It just takes a group of motivated people to get it going.

guest_s

11-11-2004, 12:05 PM

soupboy

11-11-2004, 01:18 PM

...to have a decent, well run DH/DS/4X series in MN you've got some core issues that aren't about to be overcome easily (or maybe at all).

1. Insurance,
2. Insurance,
3. Insurance,
4. The relative number of paying participants, insurance costs aside, to legitimize the time and effort to build a safe DH course. Putting aside the # of participants, isn't it "easier" to build a safe XC course - they often incorporate existing trails - than to build a purpose-built DH course for one event (if a multi-locale series)?
5. Perceived risk by either the public land manager or private land owner. I don't care what the law says, we live in a litigious world. If somebody damages themselves seriously some lawyer is likely going to suggest they pursue economic remedy via the legal system - merit or not. Even if the land owner prevails the potential for costly negative PR, management distraction and legal expense are a significant enough threat to scare off the majority of people. No business person of sound mind is going to dabble in the gray area of legality or liability. Fun? Not. Prudent? Yes.
6. My perception is that XC race organizers are stretched pretty thinly just to run the events they currently manage. Most often this is not their day job, but a passion. To add another event might just topple the cart from a time and resource standpoint.

This is something those inclined to race DH must take the initiative on if they want to advance the ball. I'm not sure 20-30 hardcore riders are enough...maybe it is. Before any money and time is spent on courses, the DH scene needs to be willing to organize and invest a lot of their personal time rallying the troops. It won't succeed if you're an incremental burden or you're dilutive from a cost or labor standpoint to an existing XC event.

I by no means mean to poop on the carpet here. I'd love to see DH/4X events even if I'm too chicken to participate myself. We certainly have the terrain to create pedaling-intensive DH and/or DS/4X courses.

Build it and they will come,

Sean

Buck

11-11-2004, 04:12 PM

Another insurance question.

I see that the MNSCS is NORBA apporved so that means that they carry a NOBRA license correct? If so doesn't that include some type of insurance with it???
L8R
Buck

GearDaddy

11-11-2004, 07:23 PM

Another insurance question.

I see that the MNSCS is NORBA apporved so that means that they carry a NOBRA license correct? If so doesn't that include some type of insurance with it???
L8R
Buck
Yes, one of the main benefits of NORBA license fees is to cover insurance. I'm not sure about NORBA, but I do know that the USCF (i.e. road racing affiliation) is raising their license fees for next year, and their main explanation is to cover insurance costs. Apparently USCF offers an insurance benefit that is meant to cover claims that are beyond a person's personal insurance coverage, i.e. a sort of catastrophic backup insurance. Well, USCF claims that in the last few years they have had claims that are exceeding their premiums, so the insurance companies are raising their rates. USCF is passing this on to individuals through license fees. Interestingly, their explanation sounds a little like blaming individuals for filing claims that they shouldn't.

I do know that a few years ago a lot of people raised a stink about increasing NORBA fees. As a result a lot of people who were running races decided to drop NORBA license requirements for entrants, claiming that the high fees were driving away participants. So, NORBA has changed their pricing and rules on requiring yearly vs. one-day-only licenses in order to get people back to NORBA.

So, it ends up coming down to a question of "how much do you want to pay?". The MNSCS races this year were about $25, with a $3 dollar discount if you had a yearly NORBA license. USCF yearly licenses this year were $25, but they are going to $30 next year. I just finished doing a bunch of Cyclocross races, where most races were $20 entry fees plus a $5 fee for a one-day license if you didn't have the yearly USCF license. All in all I'd say it was pretty affordable. Heck, triathaletes regularly dish out $100 or more to do a single race. Adventure racers pay even more!

Buck

11-11-2004, 08:09 PM

soupboy

11-11-2004, 08:33 PM

...businesses in general, since 9/11 and further hampered by this year's particularly strong hurricane season have been pounded by insurance premium hikes...of epic proportion.

Further, it has nothing to do with a particular company's line of business. If you're looking for insurance of any type it has gone up.

As to the technicalities of what is covered by MNSCS vs. NORBA vs. whatever I have no clue. That is a question for the specific organization and their insurance carrier.

I pray for the path of least resistance to get a DH/DS series going but I wouldn't hold your breath.

Sean

Burke

11-11-2004, 08:33 PM

I disagree with the opinion that DH races are too difficult and time intensive to put on.

Fun Promotions in Michigan (funpromotions.com) does a relatively low key DH on Saturdays before XC races on Sunday.

The races are not huge jumps and nasty drops. They're getting from the top to the bottom as fast as you possibly can. Some natural rolling jumps and other natural obstacles are incorporated.

The race promoter himself gets in on the DH action. How it worked when I was there, they would have 2 races. The courses might have been slightly different. The prizes weren't extravagant, but neither were the entry fees.

When you're promoting an XC race, how much extra space on a flier does it take to promote a DH race? Maybe another page? Certainly not extra postage.

It's doable on that scale. If you were able to find a way to pull them off on the same day, you would save some site fee hassles.

If you're looking for big ole man made jumps, and huge obstacles, that's getting a little beyond the scope of something that can be recreated weekend to weekend at sites that don't allow you to keep them in place from year to year.

If it were to happen, the existing race promoters would need additional help to pull it off. As it is, they're already maxed out with things to do to pull off their events.

GearDaddy

11-11-2004, 08:34 PM

So then really if the races were MNSCS approved then they would be covered by NORBA insurance under the one day event thing you mentioned. So would thta cover the insurance problem???
Thanks for the response! This stuff is pretty confusing to weed through on webpages.
L8R
Buck
Well, I'm no lawyer or insurance expert, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express, :)

NORBA and USCF are part of USA cycling. They have specific info concerning the insurance policy coverage at their website at www.usacycling.org (http://209.177.135.180/news/user/story.php?id=627). Peruse the site for other info. They describe their insurance coverage as "excess coverage". They mention $1000 deductible if an individual has their own primary coverage, and a $2000 deductible if an individual has no primary coverage.

The following info is given for their "General Policy Liability":

A. Policy Coverage
Participant legal liability
Premises-Operations liability
Products and completed operations
Personal injury liability
Limited worldwide liability
B. Policy Exclusions
Employee bodily injury or job-related injury; i.e., this policy does not provide the race organizer’s employees or volunteers with workers’ compensation, nor will it pay related medical expenses.
Participant vs. participant claims involving rider vs. rider are excluded.
This policy does not provide coverage for non-owned or hired automobiles or motorcycles except vehicles specifically scheduled and additional fee paid. For more information please see Non-Owned/Hired Insurance Information.
Non-cycling related activities such as fireworks, concerts, festivals, or stunts, jumps, etc.
Terrorism
Professional liability for medical professionals
My guess is that NORBA's insurance wouldn't fit DH/DS racing. So, you'd need to find some other organization that would have coverage, or get NORBA to renegotiate to get proper coverage, or do it on your own.

soupboy

11-11-2004, 08:40 PM

...it's not the level of difficulty per se but the question as to the prospective DH racers expectations on course content.

Just bombing down the existing terrain is one thing but I've seen nary a fall line at most ski areas in MN that make for an interesting race w/o moving some earth, building berms, and manufacturing some of "natural" obstacles.

It is all about how much more can the often already taxed promoters take on...

Sean

I disagree with the opinion that DH races are too difficult and time intensive to put on.

If it were to happen, the existing race promoters would need additional help to pull it off. As it is, they're already maxed out with things to do to pull off their events.

Jeff Lewis

11-11-2004, 08:55 PM

Buck,

You might want to try to contact a race promoter from another state which is currently doing XC and DS/DH at the same venue. Nothing like getting advice from someone that has walked the path.

If we had a weekend stage race featuring a Criterium, XC, and DS/DH I'd have no choice but to sign up. Down hills in a XC race can be pretty crazy so depending on the course it would not be much a stretch to get people to cross over from the XC side.

Jeff

Buck

11-11-2004, 09:11 PM

Awesome, awesome, awesome...I like these responses, super helpful...I see what you are all saying. First off, How can NORBA not cover DH/DS, they themselves host a NATION wide race series that has as one of its events DH and 4X. I am working to get some help from the people that are throwing a sick DH series in Arkansas...

2nd, I would hope that the 1st year round if this is possible that the event be secondary to the XC to see what the turnouts are. I know I can get some support from bigger companies. And I can drum up racers. I also have a fairly large pool of dedicated DHers that would be willing to build DH stuff. In the long run I would hope that the DH courses become permanent. Along with that the 4x courses are generally built on a year to year basis to change things up.

I'll continue to drum up stuff regarding insurance...but man keep the info coming.

Thanks for the great responses!!!
L8R
Buck

bikebud

11-11-2004, 09:36 PM

Buck, man I wish everyone had your dedication and enthusiasm. I can tell you're going to get some DH events to happen. Be ready for work, though (and I can tell you are).

When I filled out the NORBA paperwork last year for our race here in Red Wing there was a section in which we had to check what type of race we were running. Short track, Dual Slalom, Down Hill, Cross Country, and Trials were all represented. Also represented were one day and multiple day events.

When dealing with the insurance the companies think in terms of exposure. Exposure is thought of in terms of the risk of claim. The greater the exposure, the greater the risk of claim. Therefore, the risk of a claim is greater if a promotor is putting on multiple events at the same venue. This means that the insurance premium is greater for a venue holding XC and DH races, XC and short track, etc. Multiple day events crank the cost up even more. As an example, a venue that is allowing pre ride on the race course the day before the actual event is supposed to have insurance coverage for the pre ride day rather than just the day that racing is taking place on!

As to the time element our "staff" puts in 2 ten hour days on our race weekend just to get the cross country event off successfully. We have to mark the course, get the registration set up, etc., etc. Speaking for our event, I really don't want to add anything else to our already full plate.

Also, we're very gun-shy about having someone come in and set up a DH/FR course at our event because we sort of got screwed 3 years ago by someone who wanted to hold a trials event in conjunction with our venue. A ton of promises were made that weren't kept and my co-director ended up having to do the cleanup of the obstacles that were left strewn around a parking area. That didn't leave a good taste in my mouth so that's where I come from saying that I would want to see some sort of track record from events that would want to partner with our XC event.

Good luck to you though. Count on me to come out and watch any event you end up putting on. I'll support anything that happens in the dirt on two wheels!

Kris

Buck

11-11-2004, 10:05 PM

Yeah Kris,

I hear ya on that, lots of promises were made to the DHers for the Greenman and what turned out happening is the small DH community in MN made it happen, I spent the morning of and the day before finishing course work and my pre-race run time was spent riding down the trail with a back pack full of marking stakes, a hammer, and a huge roll of tape, and I marked out a 1.25 mile course in an hour! I know what it takes and I know I can get builders, people to donate prizes, and atleast one BIG company to back me.

Now I just need to convince Directors like you to atleast entertain the idea. With that comes the tough part of getting permission to build semi-permanent to permanent DH courses to give it a go and see what happens. The locations I would like to see first are; Spirit Mtn they already have a permanent course, second would be at Mt. Kato I know some DHers down there that would love to build there own course/trail to ride. The other location I would like near the cities, like Afton, or Red Wing(haha, kinda Ironic, eh?) Eventually including places like Lutsen, Steeple Chase...for 4x and DS you need little or no elevation so they could happen almost anywhere.

Keep the responses coming!!! This is great! I will do what ever it takes to get more access for my style of riding in MN. Expect to see some FR events coming this spring, summer and maybe even this winter!!!
L8R
Buck

guest_s

11-12-2004, 07:11 AM

Some of our dirt jump comps were started as underground, meaning we had them at trails and jumps that were not legal. Later I was able to get BMX tracks to show interest because of all the hype about the underground contests. These contests had a lot more people than we expected and also a lot of spectators.

I think if we were able to get something going, whether it's just 1 or 2 races and maybe not even affiliated with XC races at the start, we could show there would be a good turnout. I think people underestimate the size of the freeride movement, just like they did the BMX dirt jump movement of the early 90's. Now look, X-Games, Gravity games, and others......BMX dirt jumping is one of the main events.

Buck, we just need to get something started no matter how we do it. Once we prove it can be done and many people will show up to ride and watch, they will be begging us to come hold and event at their XC race......:):)

SickBoy

11-12-2004, 08:32 AM

The COGGS dudes have been running DS races in conjunction with the XC races at Du Lac and Spirit for several years now.

One problem is that I guarantee, no matter how many people you get to show up to a MN DH or DS race, I guarantee it will not be enough to cover running the lifts for a day. Electricity bill for running the lifts is like $2K minimum. And a hi-zell of a lot of people will complain if you have no way to ferry them to the top of the hill with their 40 lb. bikes. Not saying that they're wusses or anything, I would not want to pedal a 40 lb bike to the top of the hill either.

At Du Lac they were using a pickup truck to ferry people up last couple of years. At a place like Buck or Afton it would be very easy to do the same since you can pretty much drive to the top or at least most of the way up.

I would think a DH/DS race would be most successful if run at the same time as a XC race and not on a seperate day, since for most of the MNSCS, people only come the day of and are not around the day before. I don't think there would be a lot of overlap if you could run at the same time as the Comp/Expert XC race. The courses would either need large metal culverts or bridges to ride through/over so that the courses dont interfere with each other.

If I were you, and you're really serious about it, I would pick two venues this year (in addition to existing DS races at Du Lac and Spirit) and try to get a course built and included with the XC event. Buck and Afton would be my two choices.

Little D

11-12-2004, 08:49 AM

I agree with Andy, build on what's already going on.
Also, talk to the guys at the Gravity Lab about last years Buck Hill downhill series to make sure they have it again this year! Losing events already in existance isn't going to help your quest for new events...

Buck

11-12-2004, 10:05 AM

1st, Shuttling, the easy way to cut cost on that is with a pick up truck, or Uhaul. That seems to work the best and is the most cost effective. And I have seen it work at many races.
2nd, The two current DS races in MN, are for the most part lame. Not to be be mean b/c it is cool that they are doing it, but I've talked to the COGGS guys they are the ones gettin me rollin at Spirit, all they had were two mowed lines down the hill, that isn't going to attract DHers!!!
3rd. If the race is run the same day I would rather it NOT be run at the same time, either before or after works best. It is to much of a risk to have racers crossing paths. A DHer going 30 mph would kill a XC racer.
4th the three locations I would like to see in the first year would be Spirit Mtn. They have a DH course that is fun and not to hard(that can change of course!;) ) The second location I would like to see would be Afton they have more elevation and land to play with then Buckhill, which makes me think they would be more likely to allow a DH course being built. 3rd location is still up in the air, I am thinking Steeplechase, they want trails out there what better way to get publicity for all trails there then to have a DH race. If that wouldn't work Kato would be my next move. I have spread the locations out b/c there are riders everywhere not just the cities! Afton makes the most sense to get done ASAP, b/c I still realize that the largest body of riders in the state do live there.
Keep the advice coming!!! I'm still getting a plan down on paper and researching the insurance side, shortly after thanksgiving I have a meeting with one large company that sounds interested in the ideas I am pumping out. If these guys jump on board, I'm pretty sure I can have awards and such for all the DH races!
L8R
Buck

SickBoy

11-12-2004, 10:59 AM

Buck,

No offense dude but the way to get this off the ground is high visibility, low cost. I know that you hardcore DH guys want something "cool" but if given the choice between something somewhat less than "totally cool" and nothing at all... I'd think you'd want something as opposed to nothing.

I would think with some venues, if you collaborated with the XC promoter you could get a course layout that didn't interfere with XC. I, personally, can think of at least one way to create a DH course on the south side of Buck, get a decent vertical drop, utilizing some of the new singletrack, and lay out the XC course so as not to interfere. Bridges and culverts are a possibility like I already mentioned.

The more people you get seeing that DH races actually happen, the less "niche" it becomes and the more participants you get. He!! I would do a DH race or two if it were on the same day as the XC and I could just throw my Bruiser in the car along with my XC bike and not have to make extra trips.

I know berms and doubles and technical stuff is cool, BUT (there is always a but) it's going to cost extra to get equipment to move dirt, not to mention it's (reportedly) pretty dang hard to get places like ski areas to allow you to move large quantities of dirt on their well-laid out ski runs. COGGS just tries to have -something- - lame or not - and they should be applauded for that.

I would say, keep it simple, keep it cheap, keep it logical, and it will be successful, which will give you a bigger bargaining chip for following years. You can't compare local events with things like a NORBA National - NORBA Nationals are run by promotion companies with a minimum of $50g to dole out simply to pay USAC for the right to host a National. Obviously, things like getting dirt moving equipment, paying to run the lifts, are not big things if you can come up with $50+g. For guys who volunteer or run a race series on their free time, it's a different issue.

JBergland

11-12-2004, 11:15 AM

Adam,

"2nd, The two current DS races in MN, are for the most part lame."

From this point on Adam, I'd like to hear a lot less TALK from you, and see a great deal more action. Being fairly involved with the GL series for the last two years, I’ve got a fairly accurate perspective on a couple things. I can tell from what you have said/posted you have little experience with event promotion. Further, you are burning bridges with the every people that you will need to approach for their support/help. You are not HEARING what a couple EVERY experienced people are telling you… choosing to focus only on what you’d like to see happen… which is not very realistic at this point.

Less talk + more action = happier cycling community for everyone.

<O:p> </O:p>

JB

SickBoy

11-12-2004, 11:20 AM

Easy, Jay. He's just enthusiastic which there is nothing wrong with being.

Adam, Jay is right. You gotta listen to the people who have experience with event promotion. I know that you, as a hardcore DH/FR rider have certain ideas about the way things should be. That's fine, it's an excellent goal to work towards. The thing is, to people like landowners, bike companies, etc, if you are going to get them to cooperate with and help you, you gotta do what you can to make these events accessible and well-attended. Bike companies would be much more thrilled with throwing cash at you to run an event with a 300+ person potential audience, even if the course was somewhat subpar and you were somewhat limited by the day you picked, vs. holding an event for 50 people on a nicer course. For future years, you'd get access to more money, more sponsorship, and more logistical leeway to do what you need to to grow your event.

it's just something to think about.

Buck

11-12-2004, 11:31 AM

Whoa!!! I wasn't bashing, maybe it came across wrong, what they have going is AWESOME that is how things get started. Sorry for the use of LAME but that is what someone on a big bike would call it, I did it a a couple years back I thought it was fun and cool, but would I drive 2 hrs to do it again, probably not unless I was there to race the XC but I gave that up a couple yrs ago...:confused: :hit:

I meant that the DH should be the same DAY but at a different TIME. What if an XC rider wants to take a wing at the DH course but he is busy racing??? That is what I meant. And why take away from someone else's race by holding another at the same time? (maybe I read your post wrong!:zzz: :eyeroll: )

As for the NORBA mention, again is a starting point for more info, I know they have a huge bankroll, I was wondering more about if having the NORBA license covered the DH event as well or if additional coverage is needed.

Yes, getting permission at a ski area is hard, but(yeah here is my but) all the things about moving dirt on their ski hills is not where the course would go. there are no natural features on a ski run, the real stuff is in the woods AROUND the ski runs, that is where the courses should be if they cross the ski hill all you need is a mowed path, keep the berms on or in the woodline, if you want jumps on the ski hill you utilize portable kickers. If you do it right you shouldn't have to move alot of dirt...creative trail design should include natural terrain that is challenging enough.

I see what you mean about using places that already cater to DHers in some form, both BUCKHILL and SPIRIT do that, but Lutsen has one run that could be used for a DH race but no XC race there, Afton has plenty of area to build a SIC DH course and they host multiple events.

And I would love to join on with a XC director but from what I got from KRIS, they would rather not as they are aleady busy as he!!
Keep the feedback coming!!! :banana:
L8R
Buck

Buck

11-12-2004, 11:40 AM

I'm super sorry I put it that way, I didn't mean to come across as an a$$hole, I'm just all pumped up. I didn't mean to offend any one, I know that alot of work goes into an event no matter what kind. I'm not trying to burn bridges I'm trying to learn how to do this stuff, and from what I have learned it is pretty hard to get advice when no responds one way to get responce is to poke and prod, this thread was going well till I said LAME I'm super sorry if I could I would retract the statement but I can't I didn't mean to bash any event I know that is how things get started is keepin it simple. I also know that alot of people are not to happy with FRers sorry if I emit the image and keep the flame burning, I'm only 20 I still say things I shouldn't every now and then and I realize that. I just get all excited about things like this and sometimes I let things slip that I shouldn't.

L8R
Buck

SickBoy

11-12-2004, 11:42 AM

Buck,

NORBA is what you want for insurance coverage, it will reduce your costs for sure. Insurance companies, I guarantee, will charge you an arm and a leg for insurance for something like a DH. With using NORBA/USAC insurance, you have tons of people who do XC and road racing events who never have to use the insurance (but still buy licenses) who are mitigating the overall risk.

Kris promotes the Muddy River race which, admittedly being NOT a ski hill is not the place for a DH race.

If you ran a DH race, with qualifying/seeding during the Expert event I would think there would be not a lot of overlap. Maybe have qualifying during the Beg, Spt, Expert races and have people sign up for qualifying times - then the finals would be just after the expert race is over. That way people could sign up for a qual time that would not interfere with the XC race that they might want to do. Trying to run a DH event before a MNSCS race, the same day, would mean you'd have people practicing as the sun comes up in order to be done by 9:30 AM. not the most appealing. Running it afterwards means you wouldn't be done until maybe 7:30 or 8 PM which is getting late for people who have to drive back to the boonies.

Personally I don't think there's a whole lot of crossover between people interested in DH and people racing Pro/Expert/Comp XC. At some point, you gotta decide on what's more important, tons of visibility and maybe losing participation from a small handful, inconveniencing people with weird event times, or losing visibility.

Even norba nationals have a lot of overlap between XC practice and races and gravity practice/qualifying/races, and NORBA nationals have 4 whole days to play with.

Don't worry about it, Buck, we know you mean well and we are here to help guide you.

Buck

11-12-2004, 11:57 AM

Andy,

Thanks man, I understand what you are sayin now. That was what I was curious about, I figured if you got their name behind it like the MNSCS series already does it would be cheaper. SO then it comes down to a matter of filing all the paper work. How do you get all that stuff, call NORBA???

Yeah that could probably work. Most DH races have best of two runs. No qualifying but if you have to charge over I'd say $25 for an entrance fee, I was thinkin of doing a format like Greenman did. With the winner getting 7 runs in. so at the min. they get two runs(one for seeding times) at the max they get like 7 depending on entrants. And you know it would just be worth it to try if it doesn;t work that way just change it the next time!

Yeah I kinda figured that about Red Wing, I remember back in the day when all that was at Welch village and it was a HUGE event, back in the hay day of racing!

Yeah I hear ya, that is a personnal problem, I'm pretty stubborn about my ideas, lol, again don't mean to bash...I just see that DH in MN could rock, but it can't happen over night, I know...and I'm all excited!
L8R
Buck

SickBoy

11-12-2004, 12:16 PM

Buck,

Check www.usacycling.org for resources for event promoters. As far as local people that can help.. the name of the dude who owned the production company that did the Welch nationals was Todd Bollom. I don't know if he's still around, I haven't seen him in years, but he may be able to help with advice on some logistical things for running a real, focused DH race (since Welch was the last real, focused regional-type DH event).

JBergland

11-12-2004, 12:25 PM

Enthusiasm is great... we need more of it in the sports!! However, enthusiasm alone is often short-lived.

Adam,
Listen to Andy, Kris, etc. They have experience putting on events and will be able to give you many suggestions on what to try... and what to stay away from at all costs!! It does not matter what kind of event you are putting on (XC, DH, DS, Road, etc.), there are a number of different things that are universal. Focusing on them FIRST is a good place to direct your 'enthusiasm'.

Check your PM for some info on the GL series.

JB

SickBoy

11-12-2004, 12:26 PM

Buck, one more word on this. Like you said, this is probably a two to three year proposition to get a series for gravity events going in MN. Start small, one race, maybe two. Generate interest, make the events high visibility, accessible and fun, and it will grow in participation, as well as growing the potential. I won't say any more here, if you want more help from me, let me know over PM or email.

--andy

Buck

11-12-2004, 01:01 PM

I just got a reponse from the guys that run the DH series in Arkansas, they also go through NORBA for their insurance. So that answers my main question of getting insurance. Anyone have a ballpark cost for that?

Jay,
Sorry man, I did your event for a year, I was the guy that drove all the way from Rochester, I wanted to it this this year but I couldn't, do to work and travel. I only missed two of them. I will/do support any FR/DH event in MN, hell I paid 90 bucks to do the Greenman race. and I paid every week for the GL series, I know that a DH series can happen in MN. I didn't mean to bash your course or work, the DH course was great!!! The DS was just plain fun. The word slipped and it shouldn't have. I'm just super excited b/c the more I look at this stuff the more I see that it is possible. I know it will take alot of work, but people that know me, know that I am persistent and don't shy away from hard work...yeah It is a lot of talk now, but that is how everything starts, kickin ideas around pitchin' it to people to see who would be interested, and you are right I have no or little experience doing promotions, but the only way I know how to do it is jump in and start rilin' things up. He!! I'd love to sit down and chat with you, I may be able to help you just as much as you can help me!
Again thanks for the responses, keep 'em comin!!!
L8R
Buck

mtnbykr

11-12-2004, 01:59 PM

buck,

go here- www.usacycling.org/news/user/story.php?id=1053 for insurance forms etc from norba.

kl

Buck

11-12-2004, 02:09 PM

Thanks Kurt I found it!

Any word coming down from Spirit, I hear that Gerry got kicked up to someone higher and that was last week. I'm gettin anxious that I got shelfed! I suppose with snow making starting last week it may be difficulut to get a meeting set up for a while, eh?
Thanks again!!!
L8R
Buck

guest_s

11-12-2004, 05:24 PM

One problem is that I guarantee, no matter how many people you get to show up to a MN DH or DS race, I guarantee it will not be enough to cover running the lifts for a day. Electricity bill for running the lifts is like $2K minimum. And a hi-zell of a lot of people will complain if you have no way to ferry them to the top of the hill with their 40 lb. bikes. Not saying that they're wusses or anything, I would not want to pedal a 40 lb bike to the top of the hill either.

A lift would be nice, but I bet most riders would deal with the climb if they got to race. I know I would. If we had a mountian, I could see the complaint, but I don't think any of the hills are so big that a freerider would not climb it to have a heck of a lot of fun. You should see how much work some of my freinds and I have done just to hit a good snowboard run.......and that was in deep snow.

Buck

11-12-2004, 05:27 PM

nah man you use trucks!
L8R
Buck

SickBoy

11-13-2004, 09:34 AM

Shad, I see your point.... but the two DS races that I did, it got really old having to walk back to the top of the hill every time. If you only had to walk it once or twice... it wouldn't be bad.

I did a downhill race at Giants Ridge several years ago where I only took one practice run, just because it took so long to walk to the top of the hill...

bikebud

11-14-2004, 08:23 PM

Adam,

Something that you may want to consider would be approaching a couple of the ski areas to find out when/if they're doing a snowboard event this winter. See if you can talk them into letting you have some sort of DH/DS race on the snow. Gravity Games does that every winter on the snow. It could be a way to get the attention of the ski areas.

This may be a long shot, but that type of show would be great for the snowboard event because it would give spectators something to watch between qualifying runs on the snowboard course. It would also let the ski areas see that there could be enough interest in the DH/DS scene to merit doing something during the summer months. Just a thought that you may want to check out.

For what it's worth, we've been able to get the city to let us run with some FR inspired structures on the Memorial Bluff trails. Granted, they're nothing like the long-travel folks out there love, but there is some interest and willingness to work. The thing to remember is that it's taken us 10 year of trail work to get the city to realize that what we have going on with the trails is a benefit to the community of Red Wing. I wish I could say that it happened for us over night but that's not the case. I also don't think that the city would go for us putting in anything that resembles the North Shore stuff, but it's a start.

Something else that may be worth pursuing is contacting the guy in Cleveland that is opening an indoor bike park. He'd be a great resourse regarding what kind of insurance he is carrying. Get that information and take it to the folks at Steeple Chase. They seem to want to get some stuff going there. Maybe with the right information they'd jump into the FR scene and let you go nuts with their facilities.

We should definitely keep the lines of communication open. The possibilities are exciting!

Kris

thebionicman

11-14-2004, 08:33 PM

Kris brings up a great point. I did a little dual slalomn event at Coffee Mill when I was in college. It was basically two people get to the bottom as fast as possible. It was a blast and we had 15 people show up. This was at a very tiny place with little or no advertising.

Buck

11-14-2004, 09:14 PM

Hey guys,

Thanks for the responses. Yeah, I have done the DS thing at Coffee Mill, I live in Plainview, that was a blast!!! I'm meeting with some people to discuss something like the FreezeRide (which was a slope style event in Whitefish Montana on snow for mtn. bikes) at spirit mtn...But that brings up a good point, I'll have to kick it around with some people.

Kris, the cool thing is that the XCers have done so much great stuff working with the local governing bodies that hopefully we(gravity oriented riders) can kinda ride off of the success, I hate to put it that way but that is the only way it makes sense to me. If you guys already have great sustainable trails, and we work together it should be even easier. With the inroads you have made and a FRers experience, input, and help. then you would have awesome trails!!! My hope is to get more FRers and DHers to the IMBA stuff that gets done next year. Also any hope of a series is real but it will take time...

I know that Tim was already planning for Steeple Chase, I've already offered my help, and I feel I would just hinder things to go on my own. I know that Freeriding was one of the things that made Steeple Chase a cool place. For more info you'd have to refer to him. BUT I do know that FR/DH is part of the plan out there. As for Spirit, I am going my own, and hopefully will have word soon, kinda hard now b/c all there winter event are starting soon, so they are very busy up there! But I'm pretty sure it will happen, they already have trails they're just not DH specific. :cool:

Keep the replys coming...

L8R
Buck

bikebud

11-15-2004, 03:59 PM

Buck,

I can't speak for all the others out there who have put a ton of work into their local trails. I can only speak for the system I know--Memorial. That said, I would be very leary of any group coming in and changing the feel and appearance of the system we have here. It may sound selfish, but hear me out. Your right that the XC crowd has put in a ton of work and made great inroads into local government for trail access. But to ride on the coat tails of the work XC trail builders has done is a disservice to the builders.

Let me explain. My concern would be that any new group whether it be FR, trials, bmx, or even another XC oriented group coming into an established system has the potential to upset a delicate balance. That group would have to have an established track record for me to feel comfortable coming in and offering to build or even design a new section of trail on the system I am responsible for. A trail that is poorly designed, ridden irresponsibly, etc. could spell the end of a 10 year relationship between myself and the city government. I'm not willing to take that risk at this point.

The other thing is that 10 years of commitment has proven to the city that we plan to be around for quite some time. I am proud that the city chose to "repay" our commitment by actually ponying up for the lumber we used to build our teeter and log ride! It took 10 years to get to this point, however. 9 years ago, 5 years ago, even 2 years ago we'd have never been given the permission for projects like this much less been given the lumber.

Getting involved with MORC and IMBA is a fantastic first step at gaining the trust of local governments. The next step is finding a local government that is willing to be forward enough in their thinking to realize the benefit of having a trail system constructed. Get their pocket books involved! We have logged the number we've volunteered on the trail work. Most of it is in the maintenance arena. The city loves it because they aren't footing the bill for keeping the trails clear. The other thing is that we've begun logging the amount of out-of-pocket expenses we and our volunteers incur. We include food, gas, tools, etc. that is spent in Red Wing. Add that to the money our race brings into town and the city has finally actually seen the benefit to the town.

This may be more than you wanted to know, but it's all stuff you should be aware of before you set yourself up for something bigger than you thought. Keep up the good work, though and count me in if you need some help with local work (Spirit MTN would be a bit too far for my schedule). We should also keep the ideas flowing. This has been a great thread!

Kris

jitterjepp

12-02-2004, 12:08 PM

Magic

12-02-2004, 12:19 PM

Shawn, start in the sport class. The Comp. class is longer than the sport but not as many laps or distance than the Expert class. Do sport class to see if it's for you. If not drop back down a class. The only way to find out where you rate is to jump in and do it. I used to race sport, comp and one year of expert. The year of expert was to prove to myself that I could hang with the big boys. I dropped down the next year back to sport where I belong.

grizzly adam

12-02-2004, 12:20 PM

I've never ridden with you, but if I remember correctly, you tore it up at Afton this year. You definately have the endurance. It seems that the races in the MNSCS try to be consistent from one event to the next. Most of the courses are the same for the Citizen and Sport with only a greater number of laps going to the Sport riders. The Comp and Expert classes are also seperated by a lap, but usually there is some extra mileage/obstacles added to their lap as well.

Most recently I've raced in the Sport and Comp categories and some relative success. I haven't paid too much attention to the other age groups, but it's been my experience that the 19-29 in both categories are pretty competitive, with the 30+ right behind them.

The tempo may be different than what you're used to. The starts are very fast and due to the lack of variable terrain, are almost always a climb. However, the longer race of the Comp or Expert may suit your riding style.

Where to start? Depends on your ego! Does it bother you if you decide to move down a category! Or would you rather dominate and then move up?

Maybe sickboy or geardaddy and others can shed some better light on this than I have.

Whatever you decide, I look forward to seeing you out there!

GearDaddy

12-02-2004, 11:09 PM

I have a question about the race classes. I think I am going to be a bit faster than citizen but the other three classes sound kind of similar. I've also never done any short races. I've only done four mountain bike specific races ever and all were the 24-hours of afton. (Well, I did do one lap at the 12-hours of Lebanon but I should have stayed home on the couch.)

What classes did people enter into races as and why. I've ridden with a few people here too. What do you guys think I should enter as. Do I just go into the sport class and see what happens?
I raced Comp level because it was the right mix of distance and challenge that I was looking for. Comp races were in the 2 hour range, and they always were the same course as the Expert races. So, if you're looking for more technical stuff, you might miss out if you go below Comp (e.g. no "metric drop" at the Welch race for Sport and Citizen class).

An intense 2 hour race was about what I could handle given my training (lucky if I made 100 miles a week on the road bike). I don't really care about results, just that I can finish strong. I'm a perennial mid-pack finisher. I only did 3 MNSCS races this year, and only Afton was my half way decent race. I bonked big time at Dirt Spanker, and my chain snapped at Welch. But I have never DNF'ed a race in my life.

Given that you've done 24 hour stuff, I'm sure you could handle the endurance of Comp or even Expert. But if you want to mix it up with the leaders, it's likely that the Comp and Expert leaders will spit you out. Don't be fooled by age either. The guy who won every Comp race he entered was 43.

This fall I got kinda hooked on Cyclocross. I did 7 races, and enjoyed the heck out of it. Yeah, I was a mid-pack B rider using a tank of a bike, but I managed to never once get lapped. My personal victory - woo hoo!

At first racing just hurts. But somehow you eventually start to crave it.

jitterjepp

12-02-2004, 11:48 PM

Given that you've done 24 hour stuff, I'm sure you could handle the endurance of Comp or even Expert. But if you want to mix it up with the leaders, it's likely that the Comp and Expert leaders will spit you out. Don't be fooled by age either. The guy who won every Comp race he entered was 43.

At first racing just hurts. But somehow you eventually start to crave it. Ok that settles it. I race as Expert. I appreciate a challenge. spit me out nothing! :fool:

SickBoy

12-03-2004, 07:04 AM

Sweet.

I guess my (late) 2 cents is that no one really cares what class you race so long as you're

A.) Not sandbagging and winning the overall by five minutes or more and/or
B.) Not being a cranky b!t$h about moving over when Doug Swanson and Jeff Hall rocket by.

Comp races, for those in about the top 10 (out of typically 30-45) wind up being about an hour and 35 minutes to an hour and 45 minutes. For the midpack it's around 2 hours. The equivalent groups in Expert add about 20-25 minutes typically. If you're used to endurance riding, this should feel about right. Races around an hour, though you'd probably tear them up, would feel too short.

Shawn, do you ever do Chequamegon? Sometimes you can use that as a general indicator. If you can finish the 40 in under three hours, race Comp. If you can crack top 100... do expert.