winter riding ?'s

[el gueche]

so i want to ride the ride bottoms thru the winter - maybe some lake riding too - rockhopper w/kinesis rigid fork ss w/v brakes - what steps do you suggested to improve my chances of fun - i guess i'll start at the front wheel - front disc, or will the v brakes cut it thru the winter? will a free wheel make it or do you suggest a fixed hub? studs on standard rims or snow cats? - if i put a 2.0 stud on a 44mm rim does it change the width by much? and if so by how much? should i treat the frame or is a good wax enuff? - do you change your ratios in snow? what problems have you experienced? again this is not about commuting, so if i've missed anything, please chime in - since this is my 1st winter i'd rather start gearing up now than lose some riding due to inexperience or negligence or because i'm mud (snow) stupid - over

[Magic]

First start with good winter clothing. You can use V-brakes but disk would be better. Also look for a good lube, I use Boeshields T-9. It was made by Boeing, the same people that make airplanes. It's good in cold temps. For tires I use my own homemade tires. Just make sure the studs don't cut thru your chainstays. Use low air pressure and you'll be fine. For riding the River Bottoms you can get away with non-studed tires. Just find the biggest tire you can run on your bike. If your bike is steel, it's good to keep it clean and salt free if possible. Waxing won't hurt. As for hubs, I used an old rear hub and gear set. Keep everything well lubed. Things will freeze up no mater what you do if the temps are cold enough. Stay moving and have fun.

[TML]

Yeah, what Troy said. Get yourself some good clothing. I prefer a polypropylene base layer. Keep your bike well lubed. If you're not commuting and you plan to just ride trails then you don't have to worry too much about the salt factor but keep things good and lubed nonetheless.

Don't know what you're running for pedals but I've found that an aggressive set of flats are the way to go. Especially if the trail is the least bit technical or icy. Having your seat a tad lower under these conditions is also wise. it's not the most efficient but let's face it, if you're out trail riding in the winter you're just out for a good time anyway. It lowers your center of gravity and you can dab quicker. Believe me, you'll dab plenty. :)

Hopefully we'll have some good winter group rides. Winter riding is strictly about being out there in it, and having a good time on the vastly different terrain.

[transplant]

I agree with the past replies, especially the pedal suggestion. I rode my clipless one night in the middle of a snowfall, off-road. After putting my feet down at stops, my pedals were worthless. It was like trying to stand on a ball bearing. Old wheelsets are the way to go, and single speeds are great because of their lack of moving parts to freeze.

[tedsti]

I have used my egg-beater pedals for 2 winters now and have never had a problem. I would get the stainless steel version if you intend to ride the road with them. Mine have some pitting on the spindle from road salt, still work great though.
I use V-brakes without much trouble. There is some performance degradation, but I am not trying bomb down any hills in the snow anyhow. I am sure that discs would be better, but Vs will work.

Ted

[Dr. Guitar]

Keep your bike cold. If you ride in the snow and such, don't let it melt and get inside everthing after every ride.

Use an un-heated garage if you have one.

Otherwise, make sure you clean your bike very well when you are done riding.

[el gueche]

i usually use the m324's but for the winter i thought some bmx platforms would do the trick - it sounds to me like its run what ya brung, thanks for the tips

[90psi]

This is a great thread- we MN'ers should rejoice in the hellish season that is rapidly approaching! Winter tests us as riders, wrenches, and tinkerers. Makes me feel like a kid again- as i was mounting my new Nokians (Extreme 294's)yesterday, and recalling a day in November long ago spent with a friend turning some worn out Panaracers into gleaming menacing things with a box of sheet screws... Frame-wise, car wax works wonders- and liberal application of T-9 or Triflow on any steel stuff you want not to rust- canti studs, fend/rack bolts, etc- don't wipe it off- just soak it on and let it be- spraying the underside of fenders with Triflow can help prevent snow build-up. headset and seatube/post gaskets are as easy as an old chopped up tube. Nokian tires rock- and keep rocking for seasons. Nothing makes you feel invincible like taking a corner on glare ice with extreme confidence as all the automoblie-clad folk are sliding around silly and running into each other... bring on the winter tech tips!

[TML]

This is a great thread- we MN'ers should rejoice in the hellish season that is rapidly approaching! Winter tests us as riders, wrenches, and tinkerers. Makes me feel like a kid again- Hello Joshua,

Welcome to the MORC message boards. Take some time and peruse the rest of the site. There's lots of great info and great people to meet. Tons of ways to get involved in trailwork and advocacy as well.

Keep em spinnin'
--Troy

[transplant]

Makes me feel like a kid again- as i was mounting my new Nokians (Extreme 294's)yesterday, and recalling a day in November long ago spent with a friend turning some worn out Panaracers into gleaming menacing things with a box of sheet screws...
I'm slowly converting a pair of Hutchinson Mosquitos 2.0s to shiny, pointy, rolling flesh-peelers. The only problem I've encountered is that the screws I have are too long at 1/2". I found some 3/8", but the head was wrong. No amount of liners or duct tape would have prevented a flat. Off to Home Depot I go. The tires only cost me $6.00 each, plus some elbow grease, for a truly bearable investment. Looking forward to wheeling around on White Bear Lake this winter and sending my buddies back in AZ the pictures of it. Gotta show 'em how real men do it.:cool:

[Magic]

Tom,
When you get your wheels ready and the ice is thick enough, get a hold of me. I'd love to get back on the ice. Maybe if we get good ice flow down at Battle Creek or Minha. Falls I can take you out there for some ice riding. I think Troy L. from the site would join us also. Keep us posted on your tire progress. Keep the meat on your fingers not the studs.

[transplant]

Keep the meat on your fingers not the studs.
Troy,
No worries there. I was a sheet metal fabricator for 10 years. I know a little (OK, a lot!) about losing skin to sharp things. Once I find the proper length screws, I'll be good to go. Best estimate on time is about 2 hours to finish 2 tires. I'd like to have the company once the ice hits, so I'll let you know when I'm ready. Thanks.

[Crash]

I'd like to have the company once the ice hits, so I'll let you know when I'm ready. Thanks.
Post up here - I'd love to join you guys for some good ice riding.

[TML]

Yup! Me too. I'm putting a few more studs in my homebrewed tires from last year. Bring on the ice. No pavement for these babies.
See you guys soon.

[KleinCrazy]

Troy,
No worries there. I was a sheet metal fabricator for 10 years. I know a little (OK, a lot!) about losing skin to sharp things. Once I find the proper length screws, I'll be good to go. Best estimate on time is about 2 hours to finish 2 tires. I'd like to have the company once the ice hits, so I'll let you know when I'm ready. Thanks.
When I built mine I used self tapping Pan Head sheet metal screws in 3/8 and 1/2 for through the studs. I found the best selection at the Ace Hardware in West St. Paul. Corner of Butler and Robert Street.

[Magic]

Or Seven Corners on 7th in downtown St. Paul, has a good selection of sheet metal screws. Sounds like we'll have a few of us for this winter to go riding. Cool, can't wait to see us all out riding.

[bigwheel]

Or Seven Corners on 7th in downtown St. Paul, has a good selection of sheet metal screws. Sounds like we'll have a few of us for this winter to go riding. Cool, can't wait to see us all out riding.
The problem with 7 corners ace hardware is that the little items like screws end up costing hundreds of bucks in power tools. What a great place!

This weekend, maybe I'll bring home my old hardtail from the cabin, and stud up some old tires. That bike has toe clips, so I should be able to open them up and wear hiking boots, or maybe just take the clips off.

I assume that we don't ride the normal trails on the ice, or that we would at least have to stay off of the wooden bridges and stunts.

Do you do any night ice rides?

[transplant]

I'm going to run through the knobs only (I think). The 1/2's were sticking out from the knobs about 3/16 to 1/4. It looks like way too much. Am I wrong on that? The last ones I made, years ago, only poked out about an eighth, and they worked fine. As far as riding compadres, the more the merrier. Let's set up a new post once the shanties start popping up. That's how I gage the thickness.

[Magic]

Once my ice fishing starts, I'll keep posting on the ice thickness. The studs in my tires stick out about 1/4" to 3/8". They are for ice only, no hard top riding. The problem with to much stud out is they like to fold over and rip out of the tire. I have anywhere between 200 - 275 studs per tire. They are heavy but I'm not looking for light weight. We did one night ride about 6 years ago on a small lake in Wisconsin. It was fun, glare ice no snow yet. We played tag on the ice. All this talk makes me want the world to freeze up for a few months. See ya all out on the ice.

[transplant]

I have anywhere between 200 - 275 studs per tire.Holy Schmoley! That's a lot of metal. I was only going to use about 80-100. Is that enough? I don't remember how many I had before, as it's been years. Can you see any rubber between all those screws? Once you get all that mass up to speed, how do you stop? Those have to be some of the gnarliest looking things ever. Can't wait to see them.

You get to ride in front of me!:crazy2:

[Magic]

They actually roll quite well. And stopping is no problem. Yea you can see rubber thru the mass of studs. I think the next pair I make will only have 150 - 175 studs in them. I just love the sound they make when you ride on the ice. You can hear the traction that your getting. Two things to always remember: (1) Make sure the studs clear the chain stays. Found this out the hard way when I chewed thru the chainstays on my wifes bike. Nothing a little liquid metal can't fix. And (2) Don't fall on the tires when moving or stationary. Them little studs hurt!!!! :crazy2:

[SprocketHead]

ICE?.. I'm In!.. Post when you plan to go, Group Rides are great, day or night!:D

[transplant]

And (2) Don't fall on the tires when moving or stationary. Them little studs hurt!!!! :crazy2:

That's why you're riding in front of me, Porcupine! :D

[KleinCrazy]

Once my ice fishing starts, I'll keep posting on the ice thickness. The studs in my tires stick out about 1/4" to 3/8". They are for ice only, no hard top riding. The problem with to much stud out is they like to fold over and rip out of the tire. I have anywhere between 200 - 275 studs per tire. They are heavy but I'm not looking for light weight. We did one night ride about 6 years ago on a small lake in Wisconsin. It was fun, clare ice no snow yet. We played tag on the ice. All this talk makes me want the world to freeze up for a few months. See ya all out on the ice.
Mine are proabably about the same, I have them set so upright, no studs on the front tire touch, but any type of turn or lean and they dig right in. the rear has a now down the middle drive studs, the drive studs are in 2 rows slightly off-center and pointing out slightly. They work great and you can really lay the bike over a long way. The only problem I have found is too much grip, I keep ripping the stems out of the tubes because I rotate the tire on the rim from to much grip.

I think I have corrected this probelm but I will have to see this winter.

[devo kenivel]

So, do you guys know how to make these studded tires??? It seems like you guys have some good information but there doesn't seem to be any direction as to how exactly they are made. Please let me know so my couch isn't the only thing that sees my ass this Winter.
Thanks

[fasterfoster]

So, do you guys know how to make these studded tires??? It seems like you guys have some good information but there doesn't seem to be any direction as to how exactly they are made. Please let me know so my couch isn't the only thing that sees my ass this Winter.
ThanksHere's a site that someone suggested last year when we had a similar discussion: http://users.rcn.com/icebike/Equipment/tires.htm (http://users.rcn.com/icebike/Equipment/tires.htm)

I have to say that I used more screws than they suggested, but the info is helpful. Good Luck!

[Crash]

The only problem I have found is too much grip, I keep ripping the stems out of the tubes because I rotate the tire on the rim from to much grip.

I think I have corrected this probelm but I will have to see this winter.
Have you tried using a ton of baby powder so the tube doesn't stick to the tire?

[90psi]

I keep ripping the stems out of the tubes because I rotate the tire on the rim from to much grip.

Iditasport (nee Iditabike) riders run ultralow tire pressure and experience the same problem, as the pressure in the tube isn't enough to keep the bead from sliding around. I believe they employ tubular tire glue or strong rubber cement to help prevent this- might want to check that out.

[dave t]

Willy who used to wrench at Eriks told me his secret for keeping home studded tires from flatting all the time. His method was to use a cheap street tire (the kind from your mom's bike not a skinny racing tire) with the bead cut off as a liner. I also remember hearing (not sure from who) of using the stud tire with the bead removed over a slick mounted inside that.

I've always had good luck with a cut-up tube with some duct tape and maybe some carpet tape to hold it in place. On pure ice with studs you can run the pressure normal to keep the screws from chewing on the tube so bad and on all packed snow I like to just run an aggresive knobby. It seems to be the mixed conditions that cause me the most problems.

I set my studs up so there is always at least 3 or four in contact no matter what angle of leaning and also aligned so that they don't follow each other. That way if one slips, the next one gets fresh ice to grab. If you don't fill all the knobs (way overkill) and line the screws up on the same line, the tires will just spin as soon as you break traction. Some tires give more location choice than others to allow staggering.

[Magic]

I use Mr. Tuffy tire liners and two old heavy duty bike tubes inside my ice tires. Seems to work fine. I also found thru trial and error that beaded tires work the best. Folding tires just didn't work all that great for some reason. I think Spin Skins might work as an inside liner also. If anyone needs to see a finished product let me know, and we can hook up and I'll show you my ice tires. Good luck to all and keep your hands blood free.

[transplant]

I started on my tires last night, and in 20 minutes I got about a fifth of one done. And that's only for the center drive studs. I didn't even look at side lugs for the cornering yet. 2 hours for 2 tires, my a$$! I found some 4 x 3/8 panhead screws that look like they'll be perfect. The head's a little taller than I wanted inside the tire, but using a combination of suggestions below should make that a non-issue. The only serious drawback is that the screws are too small for me to use the drill to run them in. I have to pre-drill a bunch of holes and then turn them by hand. Bummer. I'm hoping I have a #1 bit for the drill. Other than that, with my family schedule, I should have these tires done by late March.:crazy:

[Magic]

I was wondering on your time estimate. If you were doing them in two hours (one hour per tire) I was going to ask you for the secret. I know my tires a labor intensive, like 1 1/2" hours per tire maybe two hours. Well keep at it Tom, the lakes are still open. And with the weather we're getting this weekend, you'll have plenty of time.

[transplant]

The screws I originally wanted to use (that were too long) just drove themselves in with a drill. All I had to do was make sure I hit the stud. No muss, no fuss! The labor factor went up with the new screws. If I could only find 4 x 3/8 truss heads, I'd be gold. The heads are super flat and they self tap. We used them in the sheet metal industry, and they'd sink themselves through 24 guage metal with wood backing with no trouble.

[dave t]

try turning the tire inside out. It is a pain but makes installing the screws pretty quick. The knobs should leave a pattern you can use as a guide. Flipping the tire back with the screws in it is the worst part but a little patience should keep most of your blood where it belongs.

[Buck]

YEEEHAAAA, snowing in Duluth as I write this, time bust out the big bike and bomb down slippery rocks in hartley park, WOOOHOOO...

L8R
Buck

Studs are for wussies, drop the pressure and roll! ;)

[Magic]

We use the studs for ice riding Buck, not trail riding. Glad to hear it is snowing somewhere in this state.

[bigwheel]

Does anyone still use clipless pedals, or do most people switch to flats for winter riding?

[transplant]

I'll probably switch to flats for ice and stay clipless on the trails. Could you imagine trying to get off your bike (on ice), putting your foot down and having it scoot out from under you because of studs and cleats? Big time splits and pain. Lots of pain. :scream: :hit:


Buck, you ought to stud up some tires and give it a shot.

[bigwheel]

Studs are for wussies
That's Mr. Wussie to you!

Seriously, is there any reason to switch back to non-studded tires for winter trail riding? When riding snowy trails, you will probably always run across patches of ice or hard-packed snow. Also, unless you have multiple complete sets of wheels, it sounds like a hassle to switch back and forth for each ride.

[Magic]

Yea Bob I set up one set of wheels just for ice riding. The reason I can't use my ice tires for trail riding is the stud length. I run some longer studs than most people use. As for pedals, I use my Shimano 636 pedals. Big platform and I can clip in if I feel the need. I use the toe spikes in my shoes for when I have to put a foot down on the ice. I've thought about building a new set of tires that I could use on trails with smaller length studs. Maybe this year will be the year I get that done. I'll have to look at my tire selection to see what can be used. I mainly ride on ice flows or creeks and lakes that are ice covered. That's why I run long studs. For riding the River Bottoms in winter I run DH/FR tires with low air pressure and heavy duty tubes.

[Buck]

HAHAHAHA I was just messin with ya, I used to ride the ice on the GREAT MISSISSIPPI when I lived in Plainview, then studs were a must but for most studs are way to much...if you just plan on being on trails, just drop the pressure, if you are ICE racing(which sounds uber cool) then I would definitley go with studs. Nice thing about studded tires and ice, was that I could go any where on the river like back into swamps and stuff pretty fun and you could never get to these places on a bike in the summer.

L8R
Buck

[cheese4brains]

I'm a winter riding newbie. I put the studded tires on the bike last night, and was planning to ride the river bottoms early this afternoon (forecast: cloudy and cold). Now it's snowing. My first reaction was COOL! :banana:


As the snow covers the ground here in Bloomington, I find my self wondering whether I'll be able to see the trail. Are there any tricks of the trail, do you "just use the force", or is it adviseable to abort all together?

[tedsti]

Does anyone still use clipless pedals, or do most people switch to flats for winter riding?
I run my egg-beaters for everything, all year long. They are actually really good in the snow for the same reason they are good in mud, you can clip in no matter what. I am sure that there have been times where I could have got a foot down faster if I were running platforms. However, there are many more times where my snowy shoes would have slid off of platforms only to get nailed in the shin/calf with the pedal followed my my foot slipping out on the snowy ground leaving me racking myself on the top tube.

Choose your poison.....

Ted

[bigwheel]

As the snow covers the ground here in Bloomington, I find my self wondering whether I'll be able to see the trail. Are there any tricks of the trail, do you "just use the force", or is it adviseable to abort all together?
Well, I'm still hoping to become a newbie this winter. There are several rivers near my cabin that would make some great ice rides.

However, when the snow gets deep, I don't plan to "just use the force". I plan to "just use the skis". There is a reason that God created snow, and it wasn't for biking.

If this stuff keeps falling, I could be on the XCs by tomorrow.:)

[Buck]

I'm a winter riding newbie. I put the studded tires on the bike last night, and was planning to ride the river bottoms early this afternoon (forecast: cloudy and cold). Now it's snowing. My first reaction was COOL! :banana:


As the snow covers the ground here in Bloomington, I find my self wondering whether I'll be able to see the trail. Are there any tricks of the trail, do you "just use the force", or is it adviseable to abort all together?
You should wait till it is a little colder and get out in the back waters , that is the best, I love gettin fresh tracks on new powder, kinda like skiing, it just feels good! enjoy the ride! :D
L8R
Buck

[Crash]

I'm a winter riding newbie. I put the studded tires on the bike last night, and was planning to ride the river bottoms early this afternoon (forecast: cloudy and cold). Now it's snowing. My first reaction was COOL! :banana:


As the snow covers the ground here in Bloomington, I find my self wondering whether I'll be able to see the trail. Are there any tricks of the trail, do you "just use the force", or is it adviseable to abort all together?
Brian - just get out there and ride - all will be good! Riding when it the snow is falling must be experienced first had to appreciate. Grab Dornfeld and go!!!!

[Crash]

That's Mr. Wussie to you!

Seriously, is there any reason to switch back to non-studded tires for winter trail riding? When riding snowy trails, you will probably always run across patches of ice or hard-packed snow. Also, unless you have multiple complete sets of wheels, it sounds like a hassle to switch back and forth for each ride.
Bob, I run these most of the winters http://www.suomityres.fi/bike/winter/index.html
Nokian 296 extremes. A little heavy but work great on the trails. They are overkill for just snow, but sure come in handy when you run into ice patches.

However, knowing your perpensity to build home brew lights - you will probably want to build your own tires!

Also - I agree with Ted, my atacs work pretty good in the winter. Pure ice I would probably convert to platform, but otherwise they work fine.

[BrightYellow]

Yeah, I was supposed to ride today too, but forgot I am acting as IT for a buddy this afternoon instead.

Brian, it's never been a problem for us finding the trail - I'm sure it won't be for you either. After a big snow fall, having hiker traffic first on the trails is sometimes mandatory to pack it down - and you'll have no choice but to follow in their footprints. Good thing about the river bottoms is that there is always hiker traffic in the winter...

-D

[Don Youngdahl]

As the snow covers the ground here in Bloomington, I find my self wondering whether I'll be able to see the trail. Are there any tricks of the trail, do you "just use the force", or is it adviseable to abort all together?
Don't worry about not seeing what's under the snow. If the snow is deep enough to hide major items like small logs or diagonal sticks that might take you down, it's deep enough that you'll be going real slow, or on your skis instead.

As for snow hiding small ruts and irregularities in the trail, I'm no great shakes as a rider, but I've learned that momentum and confidence gets you through lots of stuff that that otherwise might slow you down. Riding in the snow will make you a better rider, because it gives you confidence that you can keep the rubber side down and maintain your speed under less than ideal traction conditions.

Don Youngdahl

[bigwheel]

Bob, I run these most of the winters http://www.suomityres.fi/bike/winter/index.html
Nokian 296 extremes. A little heavy but work great on the trails. They are overkill for just snow, but sure come in handy when you run into ice patches.

However, knowing your perpensity to build home brew lights - you will probably want to build your own tires!

Also - I agree with Ted, my atacs work pretty good in the winter. Pure ice I would probably convert to platform, but otherwise they work fine.
Thanks. I was looking at them, and agree that they are probably my best bet. Somebody posted a link yesterday to a nice review of winter tires, and I liked what I read about them. Now, I need to head north and grab my beater bike, which has 26in wheels. It seems that nobody makes a fat studded 29in tire (yet). This is just as well, as I plan to start rebuilding my good bike pretty soon.

As far as home-brew tires, based on what I've read, I'll probably just buy a set. It sounds like a lot of work that I wouldn't particularly enjoy. Also, the savings/(time+hassle) ratio isn't nearly as good, especially when I consider that I'll have to "ruin" a set of tires to build them.

Pedals: I am already running egg beaters right now, so they don't clog. I also have an extra set of them that I had planned to put on my old bike, but never did. When I started thumping rocks with my pedals, I decided to keep them as a spare, and stay with toe clips on my beater. I'll probably put the new ones on my good bike, and put the old ones on my beater.

Shoes: I have a couple extra cleats, and was considering just bolting a set to the bottom of an old pair of hiking boots, along with a few walking spikes. Has anyone tried this?

[thebionicman]

My turn to chime in. I run my homebrew studded tires all winter. On lakes or on trails.

I will run my clipless pedals as well, I haven't had to many problems.

As for the time to make the studded tire, it takes me between 2 and 3 hours for a single tire. I predrilled the knob from the outside and then screwed them in from the inside. Then I used an old tube to keep the new tube from leaking.

[bigwheel]

Well, I just ordered a set of Nokian Extreme 296's for my old bike and another set for my wife's bike. If I had some old tires laying around, I probably would have tried doing it myself. The cheapest price I could find was $69.99 from universalcycles.com

If I decide to stud my 29er, it looks like homebrew will be the only option for fat tires.

Thanks for the advice, everyone.

[Crash]

Congrats Bob - you won't be disapointed.

FWIW, Nokian recommends that you ride around on dry pavement for 30 min. or so (can't remember the exact time) to bed-in the studs. Otherwise they tend to rip out easier. The studs are carbide so don't worry about wearing them out on the pavement.

[SprocketHead]

Looks like alot of us will be riding this winter, Cool!-Litterally.... I too am the proud new owner of couple Nokian 296's.

My Wed ride at Leb got cut short from a mechanical, but it was great conditions out there!.. I'll get the mule going again.

[flombe]

Here's my question - is there any reason to not run studded tires on UST rims with some extra Stan's sealant to stop any leaks around the studs, etc. I am new to this winter off-road riding idea and fully understand this might be an idiotic question.

[thebionicman]

Here's my question - is there any reason to not run studded tires on UST rims with some extra Stan's sealant to stop any leaks around the studs, etc. I am new to this winter off-road riding idea and fully understand this might be an idiotic question.
I have thought a lot about this. I am going to put on an old set of wheels for my studded tires. I figure this covers two things, one I can run a tube, and I won't be getting salt and stuff into the good (or I should say better) set of wheels.

[el gueche]

so what do you suggest i use on the inside of my cro-mo ss with the new powdercoat - i thought i saw a thread about this awhile ago but i can't seem to locate it