Trail Conditions

[gopherhockey]

Conditions at Lebanon are great. Took a ride tonight and there are no wet spots anywhere on the trail. Leafs are cleared enough to ride, and just enough to be able to enjoy. Things don't seem to be drying up as quickly as they do in summertime, so get out and ride while you can! (and don't forget the hunting going on MTW)

I see others reading messages here but not posting. Please - post away! You don't have to be a morc member to registar and post...

:D

[gopherhockey]

Conditions are still very good at Lebanon. I have been out there almost every night and as long as we don't have any rain or snow or major freezing and thawing I would guess we will be biking through the entire month up until the trails officially close. (maybe we can get them to keep em' open later if conditions are good?)

Also, anyone notice the tree that was cut out on the last downhill where riders always went to the right or left? Seems there is a stump there now that we should probably get rid of or someone might hit it at speed that wasn't aware there used to be a tree there...

[TrailDale]

Well, it's that time of year. Effective 12-1-02, the mountain bike trails are closed for the season - official Dakota County Parks policy.

MORC will be putting up snow fence at the entrances to the singletrack trail sections (that are not used for XC skiing in the winter). These fences will come down in the Spring when the frost is out and the trails firm up.

Next Spring, please let the frost come out of the ground before you ride any trails. The amount of trail damage that can be done by the combination of ice, water, and mountain bikes, is really something I don't ever want to see (or spend my time repairing) again.

For now, let it snow!

Dale Gundberg
MORC Trail Coordinator - Dakota County Parks

[SickBoy]

Maureen from Dakota County Parks has told me that their mountain bike trails (at least Lebanon Hills) do not open until May 1st.

(The reason I know this is because the original date planned for the 2002 Time Trial was April 28th - we had to pick a different [later] date, due to this)

But by all means, if there is still ice and snow on the trail at that point, stay off until conditions are ok. Dale - as I remember Lebanon Hills actually has some pretty good draining characteristics and dries out fairly quickly, doesn't it?

[TrailDale]

Andy - You are correct.
May 1st is the official opening date. However, the trails may open sooner if the conditions are favorable. The County maintenance staff relies on MORC to check on the trail conditions and make recommendations. With a warm and dry Spring, MORC would definitely recommend an early opening.
:)

[gopherhockey]

I had thought we would have the opportunity to snowshoe the mountain bike trails this winter.. I assume this will not be allowed or would even work with fence up.

I'm totally bummed things are closed... but, it is very VERY cold out now, snow is on the ground (although very little), and probably more on the way.

I had a blast riding this fall in the cold and in the dark. I wish it could have lasted another month... but, it looks like both the timing of the closing and the weather are coming together this year.

[gopherhockey]

Here is a depressing though - Appx <b>148 days</b> (of this post) until Lebanon opens again.... :(

I posted the official countdown timer on the Lebanon Trail Work page on the morc web site.. check it out...

[gopherhockey]

Just a reminder...

[TrailPatrol]

John,
In order to use snowshoes, (and XC skis too, for that matter) you have to have snow , which just like last year, is in very short supply. The snow supply is so bad that James (Kleincrazy) and I rode the River Bottoms yesterday (12-28!) in support of a MnOC Adventure Racing training ride. If this crazy weather keeps up (and the 15-day Accuweather (R) forecast is that it will) we will all be biking right through January...again!:rolleyes:

Happy New Year to All!
Hans

[gopherhockey]

Yea, who knew back then that we'd have this kind of weather... or maybe I should say I should have guessed we would. Coming from up north, these sure aren't the winters I remember in Minnesota.

Lebanon closes regardless of the weather, I guess... although i still see bikers out there.

[gopherhockey]

There have obviously been riders still doing rounds at Lebanon. This doesn't seem to be hurting the trail any as long as it is still frozen out there, but I'd like to warn everyone that if it gets as warm out there as they say it will this week it could potentially do a lot of damage to the trails.

We'd like to be able to get going on the new trails next spring rather than spend the first month or two fixing damaged trails (I'm sure we're all excited for the new expert loop!)

Please help us educate other riders about the damage riding on wet trails can do. Yes.. it is mountain biking and they are built to go through a certain amount of mud (if thats what you are into) - however, the damage this does to trails far outweighs the fun of getting yourself a nice coat of mud. Once riders become educated to this they will stop claiming we're only worried about getting our bikes all dirty (which we all know is not the case) and realize there is a much bigger picture here.

Officially, Lebanon is closed until spring.. of course... and hopefully we'll have some gates up blocking the trails when it starts to really thaw.

[gopherhockey]

I took a walk around Lebanon this evening and did not like what I saw. Just as I suspected, there has been a lot of melting and frost coming out of the ground. It is EXTREMELY muddy out there.

Riders seem to have wanted to take advantage of the weather today... unfortunately at the expense of the trails (and their bikes I'm sure).

I saw a number of places where riders were leaving deep tracks, and many where they just plain slipped off the trail (I saw evidence of some nasty spils).

Lebanon Hills is officially closed. If any of you are reading this that are planning to poach a lap or two in the weather, please don't!!! If you were one of the riders out there today, I feel both bad for you and your bike and I hope you did not take that extra lap. If it continues we're going to be spending the first few weeks fixing damaged trails instead of working on that sweet new expert loop.

Please, if you know of anyone who rides or is planning to ride Lebanon (or any other trail that would be in the same conditions) please tell them to stay off.

Sorry for preaching, but it is hard to know so many that have put in so many hours on the trails only to see a few guys get out there and wreck it. Difficult not to take that personally - I'm sure all you fellow trail workers can relate.

Thanks...

[gopherhockey]

Obviously it is no longer muddy on the trails. However, from what I see there are a few frozen ruts due to the riding that happened that strangely warm week.

Lebanon really is officially closed, although there has not been any signs posted by Dakota County. I believe the "crew" is working to define these types of things with the county and hopefully will have some progress before spring rolls around and riders start hitting the trails 2-3 weeks too early.

I'm not setting policy here. Thats for guys like Tim and Dale (Lebanon trail stewards) to decide along with Dakota County. I am curious, however, what people might think about closing down the trails. Just an informal poll.

Do you think the trails should be closed all winter long?
Do you think the trails should be closed after a hard rain?
Do you see the need for more signs?
How about fines by the county?
Public flogging perhaps?

Being part of the Lebanon trail crew I'm curious what people think.... (plus I'm tired of hearing myself talk)

[SickBoy]

If winters like this are going to become commonplace I think there will probably be more of an outcry for year-round MTB trails all over (not just Lebanon specifically). I certainly wouldn't mind getting out and riding there about now (well, maybe when it's a FEW degrees warmer outside), but the problem with opening them year round is that you can't really do anything when the conditions are bad. A muddy trail that is susceptible to damage is a muddy trail that is susceptible to damage not matter what month it is. And my understanding of this strategy is to just close the trails for the typically problematic months.

I see this as an all-or-nothing kinda thing. We can't rely on everyone who rides that trail (or any trail) to know when it's safe to ride and when it isn't. So we can either head off those issues at the pass (close the trail in the winter months, even though the conditions have been safely rideable for much of this winter), or go laissez faire (open all the time). Establishing rules for "when the trail is open" and "when it's not open" are probably too hard to enforce without hiring someone to puppy guard the trail.

I'm a personal believer that we should keep the system as is. I don't believe we're going to see winters like this one consistently enough to warrant a policy change, and enforcing such a change would be too difficult just by nature.

But if you're asking me what I'd do if we caught someone out on the trail right now (when it's frozen and can be ridden w/o damage being done), I can't say I'd agree that punishing them would be right. Something is just wrong with the fact that anyone can legally ride the trail in a downpour during the summer, but can't ride it now. :(

[gopherhockey]

You bring up some good points. We definitely don't have the communication part working.. yet.. I think it is tough when dealing with the parks because they don't want certain kinds of signs there, and I think they are low on manpower to police things. Time and Dale are talking with Dakota on how we can help them solve many of these issues.

Good or bad, it seems to come down to bikers policing themselves. The only way this can get better is through education and spreading the word... and perhaps even reputation. I went to Chicago around Thanksgiving to go riding on some local trails and read on a few web sites that there have been $100 tickets handed out to bikers going off the regular trails. Let me tell you I was not going to be poaching trails somewhere they were giving out tickets! Turns out they don't do it all that often, but just often enough to get the word out. They even ticket riders on regular trails when it is muddy.

I'm not saying I hope we end up with a bunch of police out on our trails.... what I'd like to see is enough education and information in the hands of bikers (near and far) so that they can be better equiped to make an educated decision. If they still want to ride regardless of the rules.. well.. we all know there are many that just don't care and will do their own thing.

I think this is a good year to at least start to change the way it is now. Boards like this.. re-doing the morc web site, a new project is in the works to build a really strong trail review/guide online etc.

If just one thing were to help, I would think it would be a really good sign when entering the park. An accurate map, some trail rules, a web site to get more information etc. (Battle Creek has one of these - very nice!) Posting paper flyers on the bathroom door doesn't seem to be doing the job :punched:

Even things like a sign take time (and $) though.... I know I'd donate toward a sign at Lebanon as a start.

Until then, please don't be upset if you find flyers stuffed in your windows this summer :D

[gopherhockey]

Just a thought.

If a person drives a long distance to a trail.. (Lebanon Hills or any trail for that matter). Lets say they drive 2 hours from up north somewhere. Heck, we could just as well say they drove up for the weekend to ride the local trails.

This person gets to the trail after a 6" rainfall. Its 90 degrees, humid, and even the parking lot has puddles in it.

There are no signs that say you can't ride. However, there are very few other cars in the lot, and commen sense is (hopefully) telling you conditions could be muddy. You have been dying to ride the trail all week.. month.. year even. You are set, you probably have a buddy or more with you.

What do you do?

Or should I ask: Does distance and bad luck with the weather give a person license to ride anyway?

Now lets that this same situation, but there is a sign at the trailhead that says no riding is allowed after a rainfall. It is obvious that it rained to the rider.

Now what do you do?

Should the sign make a difference? Would the sign make a difference?

-----
One last thought... you are a regular trail worker at this park. You have two weeks of work left on a new 2 mile section of trail and the crew is dying to open up the new section for riders to enjoy.

At the next trail work day you realize that there have been riders on the trail after a rainfall. These riders have left some fairly significant ruts and have deepened any puddles that were forming in the trails. (among other damage) Trail day now turns into trail repair day, and the new section is delayed by another week.. just because a few riders couldn't wait a day (or two).

Again, I hate to preach or deny people having run and riding. Mountain Bikes weren't made for paved streets, and those tires aren't just built for dry hard-pack dirt trails... we all know that. But when (and how) does one help people make a better educated decision.. or in my cases above, does it still end up coming down to common sense in the end...

[syntaxjunkie]

First of all, I feel bad for anyone who drives a couple hours to reach what they've heard is a great trail, only to find it "closed," or at the least less than optimal for riding. And under those circumstances, I can understand the inclination to go ahead and ride a muddy, waterlogged trail, consequences be damned.

But what this comes down to is that good old "with freedom comes responsibility" principle that got beaten into our skulls in junior high. Unlike say, Marin County, the riders in this area (in and beyond the metro) have the good fortune to enjoy the freedom to ride on a largely legitimate, well-developed and maintained system of trails. With that freedom, we have to accept the responsibility to make sure that they stay that way. And that responsibility can't kick in only at the moment when we straddle our top tubes at the trailhead and ponder whether or not it's too muddy to ride.

Even if you're travelling to an area that's some distance from home to ride, it's easy enough to find out whether or not it's rained there, how recently, and how much, before you go. If you can't be bothered to put a minimal amount of time and effort into doing this before you leave, you can't complain about the trail conditions when you get there. And it doesn't give you the right to go ahead and tear up the trail because you came all the way from wherever and don't want to go back home without riding. To crank out another maxim from way back when, ignorance is no excuse.

[gopherhockey]

I love this type of discussion. It is nice to know I'm not the only one out there that is interested in keeping the trails in good condition. I see so many people that get downright upset if anyone mentiones that it might be too wet on the trail to ride...

While not always wanting to sound like I'm preaching, I was thinking today about how many times Lebanon has shown that it can have a mind of its own when it comes to conditions.

First of all, for a Minnesota trail I think Lebanon shows some real genious in how it can shed off the moisture and let riders back on as quickly as possible. Sure, there are some sections that pool up water, but they are very few and almost always are fixed by a member of the morc trail crew. I have even heard that a couple of MORC guys headed out onto the trail during a thunderstorm so they could see how rain was pooling up and fix it while it was happening... I won't name names (Tim and Jan) but thats dedication!

Anyway, my original intent of this message was to at least admit how Lebanon can really fool a person. Living only just blocks away, I'm out there almost every day, and often stop by to check the trails after a rain. I have seen Lebanon be in great riding condition just hours after a huge downpour, while at the same time been completely fooled by a .10 rain that seems to take days to dry out. Humidity seems to play a big part in all of that, but it is quite unpredictable.

Hopefully soon I will have a trail conditions page online that will allow riders to quickly click and update conditions on the various trails in our area. Hopefully this type of thing can help keep people even more informed than their local forecast.

Can you tell I just wanted to type tonight? Ever wondered what would happen if you said a bad word in the forums? ****! Yup, bleeped out automatically.. shame on me :D