Trail Maps for January National Masters Championships and Festival

[Brick]

Looks like course maps have been posted for the National Masters Nordid Ski Championships and Festival in January of 05. Many folks have remarked about changes and work going on in the park, hopefully this will answer some questions.

http://www.xcskiworld.com/events/NM/NM_courses.htm

Date of the event is 30 January -5 February 05.

[gopherhockey]

So not only do we not get more singletrack, they are making the doubletrack wider? :mad:

[Brick]

So not only do we not get more singletrack, they are making the doubletrack wider? :mad:
......and adding more of it.......

This can be both good and bad.

On the good side, the additional doubletrack might make the park more attractive to beginning riders, as well as giving us access to other areas of the park from which to cut even more singletrack. At the very least, we may need to re-think some of the trail layout (Tim?????Dale???)

On the down side, doubletrack=erosion and sustainability problems.

[Brick]

I had a chance to get out to BC today for the first time in quite a while, and used the opportunity to ride and explore the new ski trails. As far as ski trails go, these are fantastic, killer climbs, white-knuckle downhills, and scenery that is to die for. When the snow comes, these trails are going to be stunning. Looks like they're still doing some finishing work, saw a lot of pink spray paint on stumps that I'm assuming will be removed.

There is some interesting topology in the area west of Battle Creek Road that the new trails run through that I didn't know existed. What a neat venue for the Masters.

NOW...that being said.......

From a MTB perspective.--there's a lot more trail out there, it's big, and its wide--especially on the west side, and trail selection can become confusing if you don't know where you're going. If you stay on the ski trail, the flow makes sense, if you follow the traditional MTB trail system, there are a LOT of options as the ski trail ties into the MTB system in places and spurs off of it in others.

Most of the singletrack segments seem to be in good shape, but some run through some areas that have been "thinned" so you feel a little exposed, and I found one small area of actual trail damage (noted in another thread). Nothing on the west rim of the ravine (ski jump area) has been impacted.

I think that once things have had some time to fill in things won't seem quite so bad, and there have been some re-routes of the doubletrack that make good sense from a sustainability standpoint as well.

I'll be interested to see what the county does with some of these new trail segments next summer. Will they let them grow over, or will they keep them cut and maintained like the rest of the BC trail system?

[mtnbykr]

On the down side, doubletrack=erosion and sustainability problems.
don't think this is neccesarily the case. if you build doubletrack, which to most people is a atv/motorized-type trail, correctly, there shouldn't be a problem. if you're talking xc ski trails, which run up/down the fall line, then yes there will be problems. one of the solutions seems to be banning mtb use from from xc ski trails. others include wood chipping the trails or some sort of rock surface.

duluth has taken the approach of banning mtbs from the over-used ski trails.

kl

[Brick]

one of the solutions seems to be banning mtb use from from xc ski trails. others include wood chipping the trails or some sort of rock surface.

This is pretty consistant with what I've seen in several XC trail maintenance/ grooming articles I've read in the past. A common technique is to just let the trails "grass up" where possible and just let the vegetation hold the soil in place. The only problem with that is then that the trail has to stay closed to ALL traffic to keep trails from forming, not always easy to do on public land.

[mtnbykr]

The only problem with that is then that the trail has to stay closed to ALL traffic to keep trails from forming, not always easy to do on public land.
how true. even walkers/hikers can do pretty bad damage going up and down the hills. but they'll always have us to blame, whether we deserve it or not...

kl

[stoneage]

So not only do we not get more singletrack, they are making the doubletrack wider? :mad:
This has been a huge concern of mine from the beginning. On a map with trails drawn in, singletrack appears to impact a site more heavily than a ski trail. (The red and blue lines seem the same size). When a land manager looks at it, they wonder why we want "so much". In reality, you could line up 10-12 singletracks in the width of a ski trail, plus the off road tread is sustainable and almost all of the ski trail hills are not. It is a perception that we have to somehow point out and rectify, if only for fairness. These ski trails do not get used for 8 months a year, whereas a singletrack off road trail can be used year round, without snow, and can be used for snow shoeing if there is. I think it is a waste of land and money. I am a very good XC skier and racer, but the inequity of this situation has me worried.

[Wheels]

This has been a huge concern of mine from the beginning. On a map with trails drawn in, singletrack appears to impact a site more heavily than a ski trail. (The red and blue lines seem the same size). When a land manager looks at it, they wonder why we want "so much". In reality, you could line up 10-12 singletracks in the width of a ski trail, plus the off road tread is sustainable and almost all of the ski trail hills are not. It is a perception that we have to somehow point out and rectify, if only for fairness. These ski trails do not get used for 8 months a year, whereas a singletrack off road trail can be used year round, without snow, and can be used for snow shoeing if there is. I think it is a waste of land and money. I am a very good XC skier and racer, but the inequity of this situation has me worried.

From now on, we'll be using much heavier lines on maps here at MOCA to show ski trails - as the perception that more lines means more impact. I guess we have to dumb it down.

[ryno lite]

This has been a huge concern of mine from the beginning. On a map with trails drawn in, singletrack appears to impact a site more heavily than a ski trail. (The red and blue lines seem the same size). When a land manager looks at it, they wonder why we want "so much". In reality, you could line up 10-12 singletracks in the width of a ski trail, plus the off road tread is sustainable and almost all of the ski trail hills are not. It is a perception that we have to somehow point out and rectify, if only for fairness. These ski trails do not get used for 8 months a year, whereas a singletrack off road trail can be used year round, without snow, and can be used for snow shoeing if there is. I think it is a waste of land and money. I am a very good XC skier and racer, but the inequity of this situation has me worried.
I cross country ski myself and love it but sometimes I wonder about Minnesota park systems fascination and devotion to cross country ski trails. I'd say lately that in a great snow year we are getting 2-3 months of use. I'm with you, there is an unhealthy inequity in mtb to ski trails around here. Most of us ride mtn bikes 8 months out of the year at least and we may get to ski about every other year if we're lucky, yet there is no shortage of ski trails, but we hardly have any good singletrack. What gives? I just think cross country skiing is thought of as a more positive sport than mtn biking in the our communities. I think we are on the way to shedding this bad image, but it's going to take awhile.

[Wheels]

I cross country ski myself and love it but sometimes I wonder about Minnesota park systems fascination and devotion to cross country ski trails. I'd say lately that in a great snow year we are getting 2-3 months of use. I'm with you, there is an unhealthy inequity in mtb to ski trails around here. Most of us ride mtn bikes 8 months out of the year at least and we may get to ski about every other year if we're lucky, yet there is no shortage of ski trails, but we hardly have any good singletrack. What gives? I just think cross country skiing is thought of as a more positive sport than mtn biking in the our communities. I think we are on the way to shedding this bad image, but it's going to take awhile.

I just want to say that I have no beef with skiers - in many ways they've paved the way for alternative access. But they are more organized, have more established access to funding, and in the case of the Loppett, raise at least $400,000 in revenue - as well as generate revenue for the cities businesses during the event.

One of reasons that bike and ski trails are a win/win for the city - is that in these lean budget times the city can be seen as adding recreational value to the system with little or no investment. When you look at dollars - it's much easier to measure the enormous dollars you're deallng with when trying to expand skiing resources.

We sat in on a couple of their meetings and were simply blown away with the kind of dollars it takes to build and maintain these resources. So, if the city can get this kind of privately subsidized budgetary support - they all look pretty good by simply regurgitating the dollar value of the improvements they've approved - not neccessarily the recreational benefit or environmental sensitivity they used to impliment them.

I've been a bit riled by this subject lately - but I'm getting over it. I think we have proven ourselves beyond anyone's expectations. This thing of ours is a success - and we can use that to launch ourselves into the next stage. We can raise the money, we can get the support of businesses, and we can show economic value in having these trails in the city.

We just need to get more organized. MORC is growing, Tim Wegner and IMBA are getting trails into the State Parks and working with the DNR, and biking is steadily becoming more mainstream.

We need to go after more money, more resources, and hold strong in our position and determination to build a real system - not just a park.

Every bit of effort helps. If you ride, it's as easy as coming out for just one session or coming to a meeting. Get involved, or you might get nothing.

We need every body available for our final trail building session on the 30 and 31st of this month. We'll even feed you!

[ryno lite]

I just want to say that I have no beef with skiers - in many ways they've paved the way for alternative access. But they are more organized, have more established access to funding, and in the case of the Loppett, raise at least $400,000 in revenue - as well as generate revenue for the cities businesses during the event.

One of reasons that bike and ski trails are a win/win for the city - is that in these lean budget times the city can be seen as adding recreational value to the system with little or no investment. When you look at dollars - it's much easier to measure the enormous dollars you're deallng with when trying to expand skiing resources.

We sat in on a couple of their meetings and were simply blown away with the kind of dollars it takes to build and maintain these resources. So, if the city can get this kind of privately subsidized budgetary support - they all look pretty good by simply regurgitating the dollar value of the improvements they've approved - not neccessarily the recreational benefit or environmental sensitivity they used to impliment them.

I've been a bit riled by this subject lately - but I'm getting over it. I think we have proven ourselves beyond anyone's expectations. This thing of ours is a success - and we can use that to launch ourselves into the next stage. We can raise the money, we can get the support of businesses, and we can show economic value in having these trails in the city.

We just need to get more organized. MORC is growing, Tim Wegner and IMBA are getting trails into the State Parks and working with the DNR, and biking is steadily becoming more mainstream.

We need to go after more money, more resources, and hold strong in our position and determination to build a real system - not just a park.

Every bit of effort helps. If you ride, it's as easy as coming out for just one session or coming to a meeting. Get involved, or you might get nothing.

We need every body available for our final trail building session on the 30 and 31st of this month. We'll even feed you!Yeah, the park systems sure do like the price of new bike trails! We sure give them a great product for free or virtually free depending on the deal we have. One of the big reasons we got to work in Salem Hills is that the city of Inver Grove Heights wanted to develop activities in their new park lands but funds were short for this sorta thing, so a mtn bike trail built for them by a non-profit group by volunteer labor sure looked good to them. It's great because the residents, riders and city all profit from this sorta relationship!