Say it isn't so Tyler

[Daddy X]

I hope it isn't true but it doesn't look good.

http://www.velonews.com/race/int/articles/6984.0.html

[Crash]

I hope it isn't true but it doesn't look good.

http://www.velonews.com/race/int/articles/6984.0.htmlThis would be devastating to pro road racing for the American public. I have always seen Tyler as the hardworking guy who would suffer through any level of pain and keep on going - but would never, never cheat. To hear he might be doping would just crush any possiblility of me having an interest in pro road racing. I sure hope it turns out that he is not doping.

[berrywise]

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=sportsNews&storyID=6295494

[nigel]

*shrugs* I bet its nothing but the same ole press game....press says yes, rider says no.....public gets confused.....riding gets another bad rap even if nothing is wrong......its getting old to me.

[mtnbykr]

*shrugs* ....press says yes, rider says no.....public gets confused.....
espn sports radio is reporting he tested positive at the olympics and one time before that.

kl

[gopherhockey]

We have a guy from Paris here at a business workshop the last two weeks. I had a chance to ask him his thoughts about the Tour, Lance, US dominating the sport etc.

The first thing he said was "doping..." and made a motion as if he was pushing a needle into his arm. He says everyone he knows is pretty convinced that the US is using its technology to allow doping that cannot be detected...

I guess when you get your a$$ handed too you for so many years you have to start to come up with some reason. It can't be that the US actually has strong riders, of course... :eyeroll:

If this comes out as truth its going to really go a long way in making their statements look a lot less idiotic..

[homebrewbiker]

We have a guy from Paris here at a business workshop the last two weeks. I had a chance to ask him his thoughts about the Tour, Lance, US dominating the sport etc.

The first thing he said was "doping..." and made a motion as if he was pushing a needle into his arm. He says everyone he knows is pretty convinced that the US is using its technology to allow doping that cannot be detected...

I guess when you get your a$$ handed too you for so many years you have to start to come up with some reason. It can't be that the US actually has strong riders, of course... :eyeroll:

If this comes out as truth its going to really go a long way in making their statements look a lot less idiotic..
I work with a guy who is from Spain and is convinced that the US Postal is doing something illegal. He cites the fact that all of the team is always up with Lance, whereas other teams are much more spread out. He also mentioned that all of the drugs Lance has to take have similar effects to doping drugs, this makes it harder to detect doping in Lance. Who knows. I'll assume he isn't until proven otherwise.

[SPR]

This is getting sadder :cryin:
http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/6992.0.html

[grizzly adam]

So what does Tyler have to do to show them that he didn't do it?
How do you prove something like that?

[Crash]

Adam - good question that I don't think anyone has an answer too. What happens if the b sample comes back with the same result?

[gopherhockey]

Guilty until proven innocent? :fool:

[mtnbykr]

Guilty until proven innocent?
from the velonews article- "...after testing positive for an allegedly illicit blood transfusion following his win on the Tour of Spain's eighth stage time trial on September."

where i work, you don't get a "b" sample chance. positive is positive...



So what does Tyler have to do to show them that he didn't do it?
How do you prove something like that?
here is the uci's anti-doping policy (http://www.uci.ch/imgArchive/Rules/AER%202005%20.pdf). might be some good reading... let us know what you find out... :?)

kl

[nigel]

where i work, you don't get a "b" sample chance. positive is positive...
....and thats how it should be

[stoneage]

Guilty until proven innocent? :fool:

I wish it weren't true, but when you have someone elses blood in you, it looks bad. It is a dangerous practice to put your hematocrit level over 50%. I believe a lot of riders are transfusing their own blood and taking the chance. A bunch of Dutch and Belgian riders did it in the early to mid 80's and they would suddenly drop dead.

[ryno lite]

I actually work in a blood bank and I'd be curious as to what testing they are doing. Other than high HCTs, I'm wondering what the test of choice is. Anybody know? Just curious. Every once in a blue moon when I worked in the Reference Lab at my company we'd come across people with two blood types and this was easy to test for (these people were lets say O+ to begin with and then their blood type changed when they received new marrow from an A+ donor so they had both for a time period). Now riders would of course take the same blood type most likely, so I'm curious to see what way they are determining this. There are a few ways to do it. Anybody have any knowledge of what they are using to find these people taking transfusions?

[igor]

If it's true it'll be a real let down to me. :cryin:

[ryno lite]

Igor, at least your real hero is Lance Armstrong and he hasn't been caught yet!

[gopherhockey]

from the velonews article- "...after testing positive for an allegedly illicit blood transfusion following his win on the Tour of Spain's eighth stage time trial on September."

where i work, you don't get a "b" sample chance. positive is positive...

So then I read this as a person testing positive is no questions asked guilty and this is all true about Tyler.

I thought there were also reports of Lance being positive that ended up being false...

I be confused. If its not a test that can lie, the gold ought to have been handed in by now.

[homebrewbiker]

So what does Tyler have to do to show them that he didn't do it?
How do you prove something like that?So how do you explain having two kinds of blood in your system without having had surgery or something?

[grizzly adam]

Duh! - he's a vampire.

[Crash]

So how do you explain having two kinds of blood in your system without having had surgery or something?
By stating it is a 100% false:cool:

Seriously - I don't think it is as clear cut as you and Kurt are sugesting. The testing is new and I think I may have read somewhere that it may not always be accurate. Maybe I am naive, but I'd like to understand it a little better before passing judgement. Anyone have anymore info. on this new testing procdure?

[grizzly adam]

The link that Kurt provided is kind of an interesting read. I didn't really look to see if they explained HOW they do the tests. I just looked for the procedures afterwards and stuff. Take a peak, though.

[SPR]

This is getting more ridiculous, it should never have hit the media until there were definite answers or conclusions::crazy2:

http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/6997.0.html

[TomT]

Some information on how the testing in done:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2004/blood_doping

[nigel]

By stating it is a 100% false:cool:

Seriously - I don't think it is as clear cut as you and Kurt are sugesting. The testing is new and I think I may have read somewhere that it may not always be accurate. Maybe I am naive, but I'd like to understand it a little better before passing judgement. Anyone have anymore info. on this new testing procdure?
I dunno man, so then anyone thats ever failed a drug or alcohol test has that same chance that the test was not accurate, even tho the testing is not new. You either are pure in your blood or your not, if there is ANYTHING in there something is up.

[Jeff Lewis]

And the latest...

"Tyler Hamilton was virtually assured he would retain his Olympic time trial gold ..."

http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/6998.0.html

[gopherhockey]

"Tyler Hamilton was virtually assured he would retain his Olympic time trial gold medal after the International Olympic Committee announced that laboratory staff in Athens had mishandled a blood sample in the case.....

....IOC medical chief Arne Ljungqvist said in a conference call Thursday that the second sample had been damaged because testers inadvertently placed the vial in "deep freeze," ruining red blood cells.

Ljungqvist attributed the mishandling of the second sample to "human error" resulting from "the unusual workload caused by the Olympic Games" at the testing laboratory in Athens. "


Hmmm... seems pretty clear to me that we should just believe these lab results and pronounce these guys guilty until proven innocent.... :eyeroll:

...I have a nice lemon poppyseed muffin to finish off, hope my company doesn't test me next week. ;)

[SickBoy]

Funny piece of doping trivia:

The guy who suspended Adam Bergman (former local who had been racing pro with Jelly Belly) was Danny van Haute, who himself was part of the '84 Olympic cycling team that practiced the transfusion-style blood doping that Tyler's been accused of.

Nice, eh? Nothing like the lost leading the blind.

[SickBoy]

And for what it's worth, I don't think it's right that Tyler gets to keep his medal because of a mishandled B sample.

And he still may be stripped of his time trial win in the Vuelta, which would make him just as guilty as at the Olympics.

[grizzly adam]

Makes you wonder how easily these "handlers" can be coaxed into "accidentally" putting samples into the deep freeze.

[SPR]

Makes me wonder if the sample wasn't stored correctly
how can you be sure the results were analyzed correctly.
Or was the sample labeled incorrectly?
Anyhow you look at this, it is a very sad and messed up situation.

[Crash]

...I have a nice lemon poppyseed muffin to finish off, hope my company doesn't test me next week. ;)
That was going to be my point. It is not always as clear cut as some people think it is.

However, if he is proven guilty as a result of the Vuelta samples that I have a hard time saying he should keep his gold medal.

[gopherhockey]

That was going to be my point. It is not always as clear cut as some people think it is.

However, if he is proven guilty as a result of the Vuelta samples that I have a hard time saying he should keep his gold medal.
I agree... guilty is guilty, I just hate all this speculation. Find a method that is fool proof and undeniable, but 100% accurate. If there is even a .000001% question, then I say innocent until proven otherwise. Maybe two samples is what it takes, but I would really feel bad to get to that level only to be taken down by a bad sample or a group wanting to take shots at US cycling... (or whatever)

Maybe all of this will help build a better model of testing and analysis. I'd suggest these places be able to back up their findings with no mistake or they too should be penalized.

[gopherhockey]

Sounds like many agree with my last post...

http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/7006.0.html

[mtnbykr]

I agree... guilty is guilty, I just hate all this speculation.
so a positive test leaves some doubt if he is guilty or not??

if i pee a positive test at work for, lets say, heroin...., i don't get a second chance. it's positive, end of story. if you get pulled over by a squad and blow a .11, it's positive, no "b" test needed.

imo, he tested positive. no second chance, no "b" test.

do you have mandatory drug tests where you work, john??

kl

[smeulebroe]

Just to throw something out here. A drug test to find said drug will work. It will identify the drug or the molecule created by that drug. End of story, positive test. With blood doping it is a statistical test (biostatistical measure). The problem with a statistical test it can't give you a black and white answer. You can only give a probability. That's why the different samples.

[gopherhockey]

so a positive test leaves some doubt if he is guilty or not??

if i pee a positive test at work for, lets say, heroin...., i don't get a second chance. it's positive, end of story. if you get pulled over by a squad and blow a .11, it's positive, no "b" test needed.

imo, he tested positive. no second chance, no "b" test.

do you have mandatory drug tests where you work, john??

klYes, we do... as does my wife (who is a pilot). My comment on the lemon poppyseed muffin was a stab at this (i.e. the false positive) Pretty good postive test if they can't tell the difference between drugs and muffins. :eyeroll: Granted they are improving this, but how about those branded as guilty that may have lost their jobs due to early inaccurate tests (that were thought of as fool proof).

Ibuprofen, cold remedies, pain relievers, hay fevor remidies, diet pills, antibiotics, melanin, AIDS, dental treatment etc. have all been known to cause false positives. Labs themselves aren't all certified the same - only federal jobs require NIDA certified testing... others can use any lab they want (usually the least expensive).

My point isn't a postive is positive argument as much as it is of the inaccuracy and fallibility of humans. Not just in their methods, but in their tests. New tests might be accurate, but inevitably show signs of weakness over time (or improvement). Labs are obviously not above error.

It is idiotic IMHO to base a person's lifes work on one test. Someone show me a lab that has never made a mistake and that is 100% accurate with no chance of human error (or human contamination either on purpose or not) then I may change my mind.. but only after you can then prove to me that all labs everywhere can perform up to this same expectation.

I know you have to start somewhere. I'm not saying a guilty athelete doesn't deserve their penalty. I don't agree with the practice of doping in any shape or form. I'm also not an expert in any of this, which is why I'm asking someone to educate me on why I should believe that one test and one test alone should never ever in any circumstance should be questioned.

People ever make mistakes where you work Kurt?

[nigel]

[QUOTE=gopherhockey]the inaccuracy and fallibility of humans.[QUOTE]

Ummmm, like possibly doping and saying they did not???? Hrmmmmm

[gopherhockey]

[QUOTE=gopherhockey]the inaccuracy and fallibility of humans.[QUOTE]

Ummmm, like possibly doping and saying they did not???? HrmmmmmI don't understand your point really, but if you mean it goes both ways then yes I agree with that... but it still doesn't take away from what I'm saying because I'm not arguing that it doesn't happen.

Your word "possibly" just points that out...

[nigel]

I don't understand your point really, but if you mean it goes both ways then yes I agree with that... but it still doesn't take away from what I'm saying because I'm not arguing that it doesn't happen.

Your word "possibly" just points that out...
Yup, saying it goes both ways......i should have also added *tosses in fishing line* hehehe

[gopherhockey]

Yup, saying it goes both ways......i should have also added *tosses in fishing line* hehehe
Yup, totally agree. I guess I feel anyone that cheats is a low form of life that should get what is coming to them.

The people responsible for finding these individuals have a tough job... and I feel for them and the process and have no doubt that issues like this that raise debate and questions will only improve the process and procedures. (and inevitably the methods the cheaters use as well, I'm sure...)

;)

[nigel]

I guess for me at least, i am getting sick of hearing about this type of stuff from all sports. These people are professionals and like or not they are role models for some people. They set an example for people trying to get to that level as well people who are just out having fun and admire them for their achievments. By even being accused of something lowers them in the eyes of some who look up to them, even if they did not do it. It also allows some people to use it as an excuse to set cheating as a type of standard which should never be the case.......i could go on and on and on and on....but ima head to Terrace now and play in the dirt :)

D

[Crash]

Here is a quote from Tyler:

All I can say to those people is just give me a chance. We have yet to fight our case," he said. "Be patient and I will prove my innocence. I am confident in that."

Personally I think he as earned the chance he is asking people to give him.

[transplant]

The people responsible for finding these individuals have a tough job... and I feel for them and the process and have no doubt that issues like this that raise debate and questions will only improve the process and procedures. (and inevitably the methods the cheaters use as well, I'm sure...)
;)
Make it idiot-proof and they'll make a better idiot.

[grizzly adam]

Interesting read from Sports Illustrated/CNN regarding Hamilton and Hamm and their Gold medals....

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/writers/phil_taylor/09/29/hamm.gymnastics/index.html

Meanwhile, U.S. cyclist Tyler Hamilton essentially re-won his gold medal last week because of a lab foul-up. Hamilton was in danger of losing the medal when he tested positive for blood doping, an offense he vehemently denied. But when the test of his second blood sample -- which also would have had to come up positive for him to be stripped of the gold -- was inconclusive because the sample had been frozen by mistake, Hamilton was in the clear.
The one thing that is certain is that Olympic gold loses a bit of luster every time one of these incidents occurs. We used to consider an Olympic victory to be official when the winner's national anthem played, but now a win isn't a win until it has been analyzed by the scientists and investigated by the tribunals. A medal isn't a medal, it's Exhibit A in a hearing.
These days, when an athlete wins an Olympic competition, one of two questions usually comes to mind: Was the winner "clean?" or, "Is there grounds for appeal?" The gold medal, once a cause of pure celebration, has become a trigger for debate and controversy.

[Crash]

Russia must have read that same article - especially the last quote. http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/7033.0.html

[gopherhockey]

I also heard there is a Canadian skating pair and one angry N. Korean gymnast in line for Tylers medal as well... ;)

[Don Youngdahl]

So Tyler keeps his gold (as of now) because they screwed up and ruined the second sample necessary to confirm his guilt.

Not the same scenario, but similar irony to the 1988 Tour de France. Pedro Delgado won the event although he tested positive for a masking drug that had been banned for several months by the International Olympic Committee, and was going on the banned list for cycling Two weeks after the end of the Tour.
Never heard much about that medal being tarnished, because it was legal at the time. Guess we all have to be able to swallow a large dose of cynicism as we follow our heros.

Don Youngdahl