Upgrade Fever

[Shickdawg]

I picked up my GF Wahoo early this summer as a "trial" bike, to see if I really liked mountain biking. Turns out I love biking in general -- road, path, single-track, climbs, descents. Not much into the extreme end of things, with jumps and screaming down ski hills.

Trouble is, I feel like my eqiupment isn't really keeping up with me. In two months, I toasted a chain, feel like my derailleurs are going to die every time I hit the trails, can see obvious wear on the teeth of my crankset and am tired of my feet slipping off my nylon platform pedals.

To be sure, it's not entirely the equipment's fault. Being only a two-month veteran of the trails, I still have a lot to learn and a lot of skills to develop. At the same time, I'm pretty sure a sub-$400 mountain bike wasn't meant for all the things I'm doing to it.

So I find myself browsing components, dreaming about getting higher-quality parts on the bike, but simultaneously wondering if I'm "polishing a turd" (to borrow a turn of phrase). Is the base frame (a Fisher Silver Series aluminum frame) solid enough to warrant putting better components on? What's the fanciest stuff that should go on there? One would think that an XTR derailleur that costs more than the original bike itself would be overkill. And if upgrading parts on the existing frame is okay, what should be my upgrade path? And finally, is there any way to create a serious hybrid bike that I can do 20+ mile road trips on one day, then hit Lebanon the next?

Teach me, oh bike gurus!

[homebrewbiker]

I picked up my GF Wahoo early this summer as a "trial" bike, to see if I really liked mountain biking. Turns out I love biking in general -- road, path, single-track, climbs, descents. Not much into the extreme end of things, with jumps and screaming down ski hills.

Trouble is, I feel like my eqiupment isn't really keeping up with me. In two months, I toasted a chain, feel like my derailleurs are going to die every time I hit the trails, can see obvious wear on the teeth of my crankset and am tired of my feet slipping off my nylon platform pedals.

To be sure, it's not entirely the equipment's fault. Being only a two-month veteran of the trails, I still have a lot to learn and a lot of skills to develop. At the same time, I'm pretty sure a sub-$400 mountain bike wasn't meant for all the things I'm doing to it.

So I find myself browsing components, dreaming about getting higher-quality parts on the bike, but simultaneously wondering if I'm "polishing a turd" (to borrow a turn of phrase). Is the base frame (a Fisher Silver Series aluminum frame) solid enough to warrant putting better components on? What's the fanciest stuff that should go on there? One would think that an XTR derailleur that costs more than the original bike itself would be overkill. And if upgrading parts on the existing frame is okay, what should be my upgrade path? And finally, is there any way to create a serious hybrid bike that I can do 20+ mile road trips on one day, then hit Lebanon the next?

Teach me, oh bike gurus!
I am far from a guru, but I get bored at work so here goes nothin'

As far as upgrading, I think it is probably OK to upgrade your shifters, brakes, fron suspension etc. If you are thinking of adding rear suspension, then at that point I would consider purchasing a new bike. But add up the cost I guess, if you add wheels to the equation you may be better off with a new bike, I know very good good hartdails can be had for < $1000.

A bike to use both on the road and Lebanon? Depends on what you do at Lebanon. If it is X and XX I would say that this may not be realistic. If it is primarily the outer loop then it is probably doable. Not sure how slicks would handle on that part of the trail. Otherwise you will have to change tires when you want to go road riding. You may be able to run skinnier tires then the 1.9 - 2.0 " standard MTBers if just on the outer loop.

I will let the real experts debunk me now :crazy:

[Trevize1138]

Let's see ... new brakes ... new shifters ... new drivetrain ... new fork ...

All that could cost the same if not more than a whole new bike to get the stuff you really want/like/need. ;)

[nigel]

And finally, is there any way to create a serious hybrid bike that I can do 20+ mile road trips on one day, then hit Lebanon the next?
Get a disc brake bike and a pair of Mavic Speedcity wheels, extra cassette (road gearing of course) and some road tyres. Then your all good!

D

[transplant]

Save your money, trash and repair the Wahoo as long as you can, then buy the bike you want with the hardware you want on it. A new bike always gives me the warm fuzzies. I think I ride better on a new bike, too. Experience a new bike!

[FSSS]

Yeah, I'd buy another bike. You probably don't want to worry about compatibility and installation issues of replacing a bunch of parts.

There are A LOT of last year's models in the shops at GREAT prices. Definitely buy an '03 (or an '04 since the '05s will be coming out soon).

Then you can convert the Wahoo into a pavement bike.

[nigel]

If its a -$400 bike i would more or less suggest saving up for a new bike, i know that sounds harsh but you gotta think of it in terms of loving your bike. Is the frame kick ass enough to upgrade to great parts? Would you be better off price wise just getting a new bike vs upgrading? Things like that. Also, does it fit you well, do you like how it rides? Lots o' factors involved. I'd say there a lot of bikes worth upgrading out there, if you truly love your frame, go for it man!

Best upgrades id suggest would be:
Fork, lighter, better performance
wheels, lighter, less rotational weight, tires too!
shifting, you can go cheap on the front derailleur, but go good on the rear, and keep the shift pods at least on level below or same as rear derailleur.
brakes, discs perhaps if your frame will allow.

There are tons of stuff you could do, damn man hit me up lets go shopping!

[Shickdawg]

Well, it sounds like the best idea is to ride the Wahoo for a while, then make it a bit of a road bike when I can pick up a new trail bike. I guess the upshot is that talking with my tax guy today, I should have a nice fat refund coming next April... I'll be shopping then!! :crazy2:

[homebrewbiker]

Well, it sounds like the best idea is to ride the Wahoo for a while, then make it a bit of a road bike when I can pick up a new trail bike. I guess the upshot is that talking with my tax guy today, I should have a nice fat refund coming next April... I'll be shopping then!! :crazy2:
If it fits, there is a guy selling a 2003 Rock Hopper in the For Sale forum.

[Brick]

Well, it sounds like the best idea is to ride the Wahoo for a while, then make it a bit of a road bike when I can pick up a new trail bike.
That's pretty much what I did w. my rigid last year....kept it running long enough to buy the hardtail this last spring. One thing you may want to consider though, is getting an in-expensive set of clipless pedals. Definately a worthwile upgrade.

e.

[TML]

Kit-

I agree with what many have said. Hold onto the Wahoo and keep it running 'till next year. Then get a new ride and convert the wahoo to your backup/pseudo road bike.

Like Eric said though, going clipless now would definitely be a great upgrade. You can just transfer them to your new bike if it doesn't come with what you want.

--Troy

[GearDaddy]

I would suggest finding a different bike, possibly used. To me the frame/fork are the "core" components of the bike. If money is a concern, it is going to be a lot cheaper if you can find a complete bike with a frame/fork that makes you happy. Doing a fork upgrade alone will end up costing you $$$.

The components don't matter that much. They will wear out anyway, and it's a lot easier to replace them piecemeal. Personally, I think disc brakes are a waste of time around these parts. If I was riding in the Pacific Northwest, I would definitely want them though.

A great upgrade to think about later is to get better wheels. Most new bikes in the price range you're thinking about going to have mediocre to crappy wheels, so don't bother looking for them in the outset. However, having lighter weight, higher quality wheels will totally change the riding characteristics of your bike for the better. The Bontrager race-lite wheels that I upgraded to is easily the best upgrade I've ever done to my bike.

As far as on-road and off-road, you could just run semi-slick tires. I've found that they work great for nearly all of the riding to be had here in the midwest, unless it's wet. I usually don't ride when it's wet on the trails, so it works great for me 95% of the time. It's pretty painless to have both knobby and semi-slick tires and switch them when you really have to.

[hockeynut]

My Tassajarra (same frame material as Kit's Wahoo) has 2000 miles on it and some weird noises are coming out of the bottom bracket, rear derailleur, practically any moving part except the chain (which I can actually clean and lube)...

I saw some of the specs for the '05 Gary Fisher line and it looks like a bike I was kinda looking at, the Big Sur, is getting a frame change... Goes from the all aluminum ZR9000 Platinum frame, to the new "AC/DC" frame which has some carbon chain and seatstays or something. Anybody know anything else about this?

1. My guess is that not too much weight will actually be saved by the carbon rear end... correct?
2. Would the aluminum/composite frame have a smoother feeling ride over small roots etc.?

An '04 will probably be quite a deal (maybe even be able to afford the Ziggurat.. though that bike would make me very Fredlike for a while) if the AC/DC frame is the bee's knees.... am I right?

Also... the new GF 29" singlespeed bike looks sweet...

Thanks for any input..

Zac

[Brick]

Anybody know anything else about this?


http://www.fisherbikes.com/happenings/news.asp?id=112

There's some general specs in the article.....

[manual63]

Well, I finally did it. I just upgraded my Schwinn Moab from 8 speed to 9 speed. I bought all SRAM stuff (from One on One). I got the 9 level thumb shifters and a new cassette and chain. Since I upgraded to new LX cranks and a new XT RD earlier this year, I already had 9 speed compatible stuff.

I like how it shifts, accept (don't know if that's the right word) I have a Rapid Rise XT RD and it does not like to shift into the easier gears as well as it should. Rapid Rise is fighting physics and thus I might get a 9 level SRAM RD soon. Since I got all these upgrades this year, I think I might be in the market for a new frame and possibly a fork soon. I just need a longer frame. That would set my bike up perfect.

Anyway, on to the 24 Hours of Aspen.......I mean Afton to see how well my new 9 speed works........:).

[soupboy]

...you may want to double check compatibility before ordering a new rear mech. My guess is you bought the SRAM "Rocket" variety shifters since those are compatible with Shimano rear mechs which employ a different ratio that SRAM rear mechs (which are 1:1). If you want to run a 9.0 SRAM rear mech, you'll need to mesh it with the proper SRAM triggers (non-Rocket).

Sean

Well, I finally did it. I just upgraded my Schwinn Moab from 8 speed to 9 speed. I bought all SRAM stuff (from One on One). I got the 9 level thumb shifters and a new cassette and chain. Since I upgraded to new LX cranks and a new XT RD earlier this year, I already had 9 speed compatible stuff.

I like how it shifts, accept (don't know if that's the right word) I have a Rapid Rise XT RD and it does not like to shift into the easier gears as well as it should. Rapid Rise is fighting physics and thus I might get a 9 level SRAM RD soon. Since I got all these upgrades this year, I think I might be in the market for a new frame and possibly a fork soon. I just need a longer frame. That would set my bike up perfect.

Anyway, on to the 24 Hours of Aspen.......I mean Afton to see how well my new 9 speed works........:).

[manual63]

Anyway, on to the 24 Hours of Aspen.......I mean Afton to see how well my new 9 speed works........:).
Oh, by the way.......the whole thing blew up on me. I ended up busting off another RD hanger on my Moab. The chain came apart at the stupid SRAM link thing everyone thinks works great. Then it somehow got twisted and then later....somehow ripped my derailleur off of my frame.......aarrgghhh!!!

Now, my P.2 is going to become my XC and Freeride bike. I am gonna swap some stuff and make it a little lighter. I might even order an Azonic DS-1 frame to replace the heavy P.2 frame. This will be until I get a whole new XC bike someday........

You know.....BMX bikes are so much simpler to deal with. My freestyle bike rarely gives me issues and I am not nice to that thing at all!!!!

[KleinCrazy]

Oh, by the way.......the whole thing blew up on me. I ended up busting off another RD hanger on my Moab. The chain came apart at the stupid SRAM link thing everyone thinks works great. Then it somehow got twisted and then later....somehow ripped my derailleur off of my frame.......aarrgghhh!!!

Now, my P.2 is going to become my XC and Freeride bike. I am gonna swap some stuff and make it a little lighter. I might even order an Azonic DS-1 frame to replace the heavy P.2 frame. This will be until I get a whole new XC bike someday........

You know.....BMX bikes are so much simpler to deal with. My freestyle bike rarely gives me issues and I am not nice to that thing at all!!!!
Thus the reason to go out and buy a Surly 1 X 1. :crazy2:

[manual63]

Thus the reason to go out and buy a Surly 1 X 1. :crazy2:
I would if I wasn't bitter about how Quality faked an image to create Surly. Does it say QBP anywhere on the Surly website????

[rowland]

buy a bianchi sass, they cost less than a surly and they use real quality steel frames, not "no name specials".

[soupboy]

Not sure how Bianchi's frame are any more "real", "quality" or "steel" than good old fashion 4130 cro-mo. I don't know this for sure, but I don't believe the Bianchi SS frames are on par with their high zoot geared MTB and roadie steel frames. I'll leave the discovery to the metallurgists.

QBP faked an image? Uh, that's called marketing. I don't think they were intentially trying to snow anyone. This also applies to Winwood, Salsa, and their other product lines. Who'd want to buy a frame that had "Quality Bicycle Products" running the length of the DT?

Heck, the majority of high end bike companies are just really sales/marketing and R&D machines that farm out their production and finishing to other people that have the manufacturing economies to deliver a reliable and affordable products to the end buyer.

How about a car analogy - would you want to see "Subaru" on your tailgate or a placard on your car that says "Made for Subaru of America by a Subsidiary of Fuji Heavy Industries"?

Sean

[rowland]

4130 is just the mix, it doesn't tell you if the steel is seemless, rolled, or crushed lawn mowers. that's probably how the want it, if it was "high end" steel you bet they would tell you.

with bianchi you know what your getting, they tell you. both the manufacture and the quality level. no degree required

[soupboy]

Just to be clear.

All I know is that Surlys are cheap, ride smooth, have solid geometry (especially the Monkey), accept the most common component sizing and tend to be burly (with corresponding weight penalty).

I've never heard anyone say they don't want a Surly because they're not sure if it's made from scrapped Lawn Boy's or truly quality steel...quality on par with Bianchi. That is rubbish. It's not like the SASS is hand-built with high zoot tubes. The Dedacciai COM tubing on the SASS is the cheapest tubeset from that tubemaker (http://www.sanobike.com/dedacciai.htm).

I think Bianchi's are lame, Eurotrash, boxy, short TT'd, pieces of poo. The only Bianchi I was ever interested in was of the Reynolds 853 variety (a HT MTB)...oh yeah, and the Pista fixie.

Better set down the cappucino, put out the thin black cigarette, and put a chin strap on that beret Euroboy, cause you're living in Surlyville.

They are everywhere and they will find you.

Sean

[rowland]

Just to be clear.

All I know is that Surlys are cheap, ride smooth, have solid geometry (especially the Monkey), accept the most common component sizing and tend to be burly (with corresponding weight penalty).

I've never heard anyone say they don't want a Surly because they're not sure if it's made from scrapped Lawn Boy's or truly quality steel...quality on par with Bianchi. That is rubbish. It's not like the SASS is hand-built with high zoot tubes. The Dedacciai COM tubing on the SASS is the cheapest tubeset from that tubemaker (http://www.sanobike.com/dedacciai.htm).

I think Bianchi's are lame, Eurotrash, boxy, short TT'd, pieces of poo. The only Bianchi I was ever interested in was of the Reynolds 853 variety (a HT MTB)...oh yeah, and the Pista fixie.

Better set down the cappucino, put out the thin black cigarette, and put a chin strap on that beret Euroboy, cause you're living in Surlyville.

They are everywhere and they will find you.

Sean
as i said, bianchi puts it for all the world to see. and yes, they stamp 'em out in tiawan just like qbp

and for gods sake, don't diss my imported smokes

[transplant]

I'll say it again and again. I'm a big fan of the Redline Monocog. 4130 tubing, tougher than all get out, and relatively inexpensive to boot. Yeah, it's a little heavy, but you can upgrade to lighter parts as you wear down (break) the stock stuff. They even have an aluminum version now, for those who don't appreciate the ride of a steel mount. But I digress. This thread is about upgrading an existing geared bike, not single speeds. Don't you all hate it when a thread veers wildly off course?;) Next we'll be talking about Subarus and VWs.

[KleinCrazy]

But I digress. This thread is about upgrading an existing geared bike, not single speeds. Don't you all hate it when a thread veers wildly off course?;) What are you taling about? That is how you upgrade a Geared bike, turn it into a singlespeed or buy a Unicogger.

[manual63]

Not sure how Bianchi's frame are any more "real", "quality" or "steel" than good old fashion 4130 cro-mo. I don't know this for sure, but I don't believe the Bianchi SS frames are on par with their high zoot geared MTB and roadie steel frames. I'll leave the discovery to the metallurgists.

QBP faked an image? Uh, that's called marketing. I don't think they were intentially trying to snow anyone. This also applies to Winwood, Salsa, and their other product lines. Who'd want to buy a frame that had "Quality Bicycle Products" running the length of the DT?

Heck, the majority of high end bike companies are just really sales/marketing and R&D machines that farm out their production and finishing to other people that have the manufacturing economies to deliver a reliable and affordable products to the end buyer.

How about a car analogy - would you want to see "Subaru" on your tailgate or a placard on your car that says "Made for Subaru of America by a Subsidiary of Fuji Heavy Industries"?

Sean
QBP faked the image to make it look like some small time rider owned company. Yep, once I found out Surly was a Tiawan made frame with a homegrown image, created by the marketers over at QBP........that was it....I was a little on the upset side. I'm not saying others don't do it, but QBP used to be a cool homegrown style distributor......then they got huge.....and it shows. It all becomes about making the money and no longer about what you stand for.

Sure I own a Tiawan made Specialized P.2, but at least I knew who I was buying from and what I was buying when I bought it. Surly makes great frames, but it's not about that.

[manual63]

I am probably just gonna ride my P.2 for the rest of the season. That makes the most sense. I don't have any races left and I can put all the good parts that I got for my Schwinn this year and upgrade the P.2. Then later, I might get an Azonic DS-1 frame to lighten it up some.

The best part, I know I will love the geometry of the P.2 and the Azonic....now it's just about scrubbing weight.

Next year I should hopefully be able to get a full on XC bike, but for the time being, the P.2 will suffice.

My favorite motto......JUST RIDE!!

[manual63]

What are you taling about? That is how you upgrade a Geared bike, turn it into a singlespeed or buy a Unicogger.
If I did that, what would I do with my thumbs?????

[FSSS]

That is how I made my first singlespeed - a nice stick in the spokes ripped the deraileur off my old Fisher Supercaliber. This was before replaceable dropouts were popular, Fisher just put in steel threads (which simply pulled out of the aluminum). Made it into a SS commuter. It is a little weird at first for your thumbs!! You get used to it.

[sensorysonic]

Tom Ritchey's 'cro-mo' NiTi Frame is made in Tiawan, so I would say Surly is in good company! Locally made, small time rider owned, company frames are awesome, but expensive! Bob Brown's single speed frames start at $1400. Surly makes frames for poor dudes like myself! Cheers to Surly for making the sport affordable for all!! And Cheers to Bob Brown for providing local excellence in custom frames!

QBP faked the image to make it look like some small time rider owned company. Yep, once I found out Surly was a Tiawan made frame with a homegrown image, created by the marketers over at QBP........that was it....I was a little on the upset side. :etard:

[manual63]

Tom Ritchey's 'cro-mo' NiTi Frame is made in Tiawan, so I would say Surly is in good company! Locally made, small time rider owned, company frames are awesome, but expensive! Bob Brown's single speed frames start at $1400. Surly makes frames for poor dudes like myself! Cheers to Surly for making the sport affordable for all!! And Cheers to Bob Brown for providing local excellence in custom frames!

:etard:

I am not against Surly making frames and I am sure they are good, I am against QBP portraying a fake image to sell them.

[nigel]

Tom Ritchey's 'cro-mo' NiTi Frame is made in Tiawan, so I would say Surly is in good company! Locally made, small time rider owned, company frames are awesome, but expensive! Bob Brown's single speed frames start at $1400. Surly makes frames for poor dudes like myself! Cheers to Surly for making the sport affordable for all!! And Cheers to Bob Brown for providing local excellence in custom frames!

:etard:
Surly frames were the same price when they were made here. Sooo they could have lowered the price because im sure its cheaper making them how they are now, but they pocket the extra instead. But they are still very much affordable.

[sensorysonic]

I am not against Surly making frames and I am sure they are good, I am against QBP portraying a fake image to sell them.

I think Surly is a lot like Rocky Mountain Bikes. Rocky Mountain bikes portrays themselves as follows: "We are a semi-custom bike manufacturer. We're not huge and were not trying to be. We're not pumping out hundreds of thousands of bikes a year. It's because of this we can take our time to ensure that every Rocky Mountain is the best it can be. So, if you want a quality ride from the tubing right through to the wheels, this is where you belong. Bikes built for riders, by riders, in a place where the riding rules."

This almost sounds like Rocky Mountain Bikes is some small, independent company in Canada. Well, actually, they are a division of a corporation called Procycle Group Inc. Rocky Mountain does not market themselves as Procycle, and you won't see Procycle Group stamped on their bikes, or on their website. Rocky Mountain makes some of the best 'affordable' production bikes for average income people. Rocky Mountain Bikes, like Surly, would not be able to offer their products at affordable rates, without the backing of a major company. Surly is a division of QBP, yes, but they are their own division, and they represent themselves as Surly. I don't think their motive is to promote a fake image. They are what they are, an affordable choice, created by being a division of a larger company. :geek:

[manual63]

I think Surly is a lot like Rocky Mountain Bikes. Rocky Mountain bikes portrays themselves as follows: "We are a semi-custom bike manufacturer. We're not huge and were not trying to be. We're not pumping out hundreds of thousands of bikes a year. It's because of this we can take our time to ensure that every Rocky Mountain is the best it can be. So, if you want a quality ride from the tubing right through to the wheels, this is where you belong. Bikes built for riders, by riders, in a place where the riding rules."

This almost sounds like Rocky Mountain Bikes is some small, independent company in Canada. Well, actually, they are a division of a corporation called Procycle Group Inc. Rocky Mountain does not market themselves as Procycle, and you won't see Procycle Group stamped on their bikes, or on their website. Rocky Mountain makes some of the best 'affordable' production bikes for average income people. Rocky Mountain Bikes, like Surly, would not be able to offer their products at affordable rates, without the backing of a major company. Surly is a division of QBP, yes, but they are their own division, and they represent themselves as Surly. I don't think their motive is to promote a fake image. They are what they are, an affordable choice, created by being a division of a larger company. :geek: I think we are mislead into believing the only way a bike company can make a cheap product is to send the work overseas. I don't agree with this idea. GT, before they got bought out, used to have a huge factory in California. Haro and GT were major competing BMX brands in the mid 80's up into the mid 90's. Haro sent their work overseas and GT made their bikes in the U.S.A. Both companies bike models were compariable in both price and quality. It can be done and the whole purpose of mass production (something Ford created) was to make many more of a product faster and cheaper.

How cheap do we need to go and how come QBP can't say Surly a division of QBP (made in Tiawan)?

Do we honestly need bike frames to cost us $50.00 someday. Honestly.....how cheap should we go....where and when do you draw the line?

[KleinCrazy]

I think we are mislead into believing the only way a bike company can make a cheap product is to send the work overseas. I don't agree with this idea. GT, before they got bought out, used to have a huge factory in California. Haro and GT were major competing BMX brands in the mid 80's up into the mid 90's. Haro sent their work overseas and GT made their bikes in the U.S.A. Both companies bike models were compariable in both price and quality. It can be done and the whole purpose of mass production (something Ford created) was to make many more of a product faster and cheaper.

How cheap do we need to go and how come QBP can't say Surly a division of QBP (made in Tiawan)?

Do we honestly need bike frames to cost us $50.00 someday. Honestly.....how cheap should we go....where and when do you draw the line?
Just my 3 cents worth.

I do not think that lowering the cost of the frames for the consumer was the main reason for Surly to produce overseas. I think it was to make the frames cheaper, thus making a larger profit on each frame. Everyone keeps telling me how small a profit margine the bike industry has, so it only makes sense that they want to make as much as they can, within reason and without lossing a customer.

I also believe that had Surly not taken production overseas, and thus start making more per frame, you wouldn't be seeing alot of the developments coming out of them as you do. Large Marge Rims, Karate Monkey, The New Winter Bike they are Prototyping, This kind of stuff causes quite a bit in development and without the higher profit that they are getting by overseas production, it might be hard for them to continue with it.


Like I said, Just my Opinion.

[rowland]

I think Surly is a lot like Rocky Mountain Bikes. Rocky Mountain bikes portrays themselves as follows: "We are a semi-custom bike manufacturer. We're not huge and were not trying to be. We're not pumping out hundreds of thousands of bikes a year. It's because of this we can take our time to ensure that every Rocky Mountain is the best it can be. So, if you want a quality ride from the tubing right through to the wheels, this is where you belong. Bikes built for riders, by riders, in a place where the riding rules."

This almost sounds like Rocky Mountain Bikes is some small, independent company in Canada. Well, actually, they are a division of a corporation called Procycle Group Inc. Rocky Mountain does not market themselves as Procycle, and you won't see Procycle Group stamped on their bikes, or on their website. Rocky Mountain makes some of the best 'affordable' production bikes for average income people. Rocky Mountain Bikes, like Surly, would not be able to offer their products at affordable rates, without the backing of a major company. Surly is a division of QBP, yes, but they are their own division, and they represent themselves as Surly. I don't think their motive is to promote a fake image. They are what they are, an affordable choice, created by being a division of a larger company. :geek:rocky mountain was a small company that was purchased by pcg. they already had an established market and loyal fan base. they were not dreamt up by the marketing gurus.

all their "mountainbikes" are still designed and built by hand in their factory, not quite the same as surly

[sensorysonic]

rocky mountain was a small company that was purchased by pcg. they already had an established market and loyal fan base. they were not dreamt up by the marketing gurus. all their "mountainbikes" are still designed and built by hand in their factory, not quite the same as surly

Yes, good point! I would add this point. Rocky Mountain was a small company that made all their own decisions. Now, they are at the hands of PCG, and they struggle to remain true to their beginnings. Rocky Mountain has to beg corporate to keep their steel hardtails in the lineup. PCG totally wants these steel frames gone, and replaced by aluminum frames. I'm sure one of these seasons, PCG will get their way, and the beautiful steel Rocky Mountain Hardtails will be gone forever. On the other hand, you have a big company like QBP, and they have a division called Surly, and they let Surly design well thought out, simple, cutting edge frames made from steel, the whole line from steel. Yeah, they might be doing it because its 'indie', or the 'anti-fashion fashion', or whatever. They are making real frames, strong frames, and affordable steel frames. No one else is making frames like this at this price. No one is pushing the envelope at this price. I can afford Surly frames, and I really wonder if a company could offer steel frames at this price, made in America, from a small company. :cheesy:

[sensorysonic]

How cheap do we need to go and how come QBP can't say Surly a division of QBP (made in Tiawan)?

I don't think QBP or Surly is hiding the fact that Surly is a division of QBP. I think most people shopping for frames realizes that Surly is a division of QBP. It's common knowledge, much like Bontrager being a division of Trek Bikes. When I purchase a set of Bontrager Mustang rims, they don't have Trek stamped on them. They are packaged as Bontrager Components.
:beard:

[sensorysonic]

buy a bianchi sass, they cost less than a surly and they use real quality steel frames, not "no name specials".

Great idea, unless you are looking for a 29er single speed. Surly is the only company making affordable frames for tall riders and Clydesdales. :cheesy:

[transplant]

Rocky Mountain has to beg corporate to keep their steel hardtails in the lineup. PCG totally wants these steel frames gone, and replaced by aluminum frames. I'm sure one of these seasons, PCG will get their way, and the beautiful steel Rocky Mountain Hardtails will be gone forever.
It's a damn shame, too. I have a going on 9 year old Blizzard that is just a great ride. Compared to some other hardtails today, it's not the lightest, but it rides like it's only 22 lbs. A testament to its' durability is that the frame is the only original component left. Everything else has been replaced 2-3-4 times. I'll ride that frame until it fails and then hang it on the wall as art.

[rowland]

Yes, good point! I would add this point. Rocky Mountain was a small company that made all their own decisions. Now, they are at the hands of PCG, and they struggle to remain true to their beginnings. Rocky Mountain has to beg corporate to keep their steel hardtails in the lineup. PCG totally wants these steel frames gone, and replaced by aluminum frames. I'm sure one of these seasons, PCG will get their way, and the beautiful steel Rocky Mountain Hardtails will be gone forever. On the other hand, you have a big company like QBP, and they have a division called Surly, and they let Surly design well thought out, simple, cutting edge frames made from steel, the whole line from steel. Yeah, they might be doing it because its 'indie', or the 'anti-fashion fashion', or whatever. They are making real frames, strong frames, and affordable steel frames. No one else is making frames like this at this price. No one is pushing the envelope at this price. I can afford Surly frames, and I really wonder if a company could offer steel frames at this price, made in America, from a small company. :cheesy:
sad but true, altitude gone, blizzard frame only, and hammer hanging on.
i've a '96 blizzard and a 2000 thin air, i wouldn't get rid of either but the old blizzard is my favorite.

i don't want to see them go:cryin:

[sensorysonic]

sad but true, altitude gone, blizzard frame only, and hammer hanging on.
i've a '96 blizzard and a 2000 thin air, i wouldn't get rid of either but the old blizzard is my favorite.
i don't want to see them go:cryin:

Good news for 2005 Jason! Rocky is bringing back a full production 2005 Blizzard! The 2005 Blizzard will be Reynolds 853 with a mix of XT and Raceface, disc brakes, Marcocchi MX Pro fork, and Crank Brother eggbeater pedals! The eggbeaters are a kewl spec, that is, if you dig eggbeaters like I do!! Also, the 2005 Rocky Hammer will be Reynolds 725 with a Marzocchi MX Comp fork and LX/XT mix.
---I own a 2000 Rocky Mountain Hammer Race and it's such a fine ride. The frame is supreme!! :banana:

[TML]

Woo Hoo!! Three cheers for Rocky Mountain! I'm another proud owner. I've got an '02 Blizzard and just love it.:D

[transplant]

Woo Hoo!! Three cheers for Rocky Mountain! I'm another proud owner. I've got an '02 Blizzard and just love it.:D
Wow, I've only seen a handful of any type of RM's and that includes here, Illinois and Arizona. Seems like there are a lot here. My wife got me my '96 (15th Anniversary Edition :banana: ) Blizzard as a surprise birthday present. My buddy who owned a bike shop new exactly what I wanted in a bike, so he helped her out. One Friday she insisted that I ride to work and then stop by the shop, which I did a lot. I got there after work and here's this sweeeeet bike in the stand. My buddy's telling me they'd been after a customer for a while to get this particular model. I wanted to cry, because it was my dream bike. He and another friend rubbed it in for about 20 minutes until they handed me the owner's manual and said "Happy Birthday". I wanted to cry again! That's why I'll probably get buried with the frame. I LOVE my wife! :banana: :banana: :banana:

[TML]

Wow, I've only seen a handful of any type of RM's and that includes here, Illinois and Arizona. Seems like there are a lot here. My wife got me my '96 (15th Anniversary Edition :banana: ) Blizzard as a surprise birthday present. I LOVE my wife! :banana: :banana: :banana:
That is an awesome birthday/wife story! What a present.

My wife and I took a camping/hiking/biking trip out to the tetons a couple of summers ago. Went out with two bikes and came back with three! I had been looking at getting a new steel hard tail for some time but just hadn't decided on something yet. We went into Big Hole Bikes in Driggs, Idaho and I came out a happy man. :) Had to do a little reorganizing of the gear to get it home but totally worth it.

[tedsti]

Just my 3 cents worth.

I do not think that lowering the cost of the frames for the consumer was the main reason for Surly to produce overseas. I think it was to make the frames cheaper, thus making a larger profit on each frame. Everyone keeps telling me how small a profit margine the bike industry has, so it only makes sense that they want to make as much as they can, within reason and without lossing a customer.

Surly may have gone overseas to "hold the line" on pricing. Had production stayed here, maybe the price would have gone up 30% or more. Another thing to consider is that when you farm out the production to a larger facility, they may have better equipment, quality control measures, etc. This means a better product in the end. That is not to say that the same couldn't be done it the US, but there may not be a manufacturing site (for steel frames) big enough to cover the overhead of all the latest-greatest stuff. Most high volume frame manufacturing in the US is aluminum or carbon.
Just a thought.
Ted